Dalits - Real Issues & Discussion

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Dalits - Real Issues & Discussion - Guest - 06-02-2006

http://www.asianage.com/main.asp?layout=2&...&RF=DefaultMain

QUOTEBrahmins apply for âdalit jobsâ
- By Amita Verma

Lucknow, June 1: It could be fire in the belly or simply the necessity to survive, but a quiet social revolution has begun unfolding in several cities of Uttar Pradesh, where brahmins and upper caste Hindus are applying for posts of sanitary workers, known as "safai karamcharis".

The posts of sanitary workers, on an ad hoc basis, were recently advertised in several towns and cities and, for the first time, the applicants include members of the brahmin community in large numbers.

"There are vaishyas and kayasthas too who have applied for the post of safai karamchari but the number of brahmin applicants is sizeable," says an Agra Nagar Nigam official.

Udit Sharma and Suraj Misra, both young graduates, are among the applicants for the post of safai karamchari in Agra. "We have been looking for jobs for the past two years but we have failed to get one so far. We need to earn our living, and so we thought we might as well work as safai karamcharis here," says Udit Sharma.

Suraj Misraâs mother, Savitri Misra, has already warned her son that if he goes ahead with the job, he would be shown the door and, the family would have to face social ostracism. But Suraj is not perturbed. "I am not bothered about society and relatives because no one came forward to help us when my sisterâs engagement broke off due to paucity of funds. I need a job and any job will do. Once I start earning, everything else will fall into place," he says.

The chief development officer at Sitapur, Tahir Iqbal, admits that the upper caste candidates who have applied for the jobs of safai karamcharis appear determined to get the job. "There is a long list of Misra, Shukla, Tripathi and Tiwari candidates who have applied for these posts and they are eagerly waiting to get selected," he said.

One of the candidates who spoke on condition of anonymity said: "It is better to become a scavenger than to become a criminal. If I do not get this job, I may have to take to crime to fend for my family, which is dependent on me for a square meal."

In Kanpur, the number of educated upper caste applicants for the safai karamchari posts is around 38 per cent of the total number of applications, "There are some applicants who are postgraduates while others in this category are graduates," says Dr J.P. Gupta, senior health officer.

In Lucknow too, there are upper caste applicants for the job that was till now considered to be reserved for Dalits. "One such applicant told this correspondent: "If I get this job, it will fetch me around Rs 2,200 every month and this will help me pay for the education of my younger brother who is a second-year medical student. Besides, my work as a safai karamchari will finish by noon and no one will hopefully know what I am doing."

Dalits - Real Issues & Discussion - Guest - 06-09-2006

QUOTECaste barriers are being broken here without quota or reservations!

 [url=http://www.ndtv.com/morenews/showmorestory.asp?category=National&slug=Kota%20Dalits%20"break"%20temple%20tradition&id=88869]Kota Dalits 'break' temple tradition[/url]

Rajan Mahan

Thursday, June 8, 2006 (Kota):

Reservation quotas may have sparked off caste bitterness but there are also signs of positive change.

People from backward communities in Rajasthan, till a few years ago, were forbidden from entering some temples.

But now in the state's Kota district a group of Dalits have been trained to become temple priests.

They are already performing full Vedic rituals that were till now the sole preserve of upper caste Brahmins.

Vedic rituals

The new breed of Dalit Pandits have learnt Sanskrit to ensure that Dalit weddings are performed with Vedic rituals.

"When we had weddings in our community earlier, pandits never used to come. Their refusal to come made us feel that they do not see us as human beings. So some people in our community decided that if they do not come, why don't some of us train to become pandits and learn all Vedic shastras," said a Dalit pandit .

Over the past year nearly 60 Dalits have been trained in various disciplines of Hindu priesthood by Sanskritam, an NGO in Kota.

They can now perform all traditional rituals related to birth, marriage and death. And in a sign of changing times, Dalit pandits say even other castes are now accepting them.

"We are getting a lot of respect from our Harijan community. Some people from other castes like Raigars and Bairwas have also started calling us for their functions. We pray to God that soon some higher caste people will also start using our services," said another Dalit pandit.

By performing private pujas, the Dalit pandits have clearly broken an upper caste bastion.

But though they have been fully trained to become temple priests, so far none of them have actually been appointed in a temple.

Dalits - Real Issues & Discussion - Guest - 06-17-2006

QUOTEhttp://www.saxakali .com/southasia/ PCLM.htm
POOR CHRISTIAN LIBERATION MOVEMENT (PCLM)

Evangelism programme should be suspended for 100 years and funds thus saved be utilised for development and welfare of Dalits

PRESIDENTIAL ADDRESS OF MR. R.L. FRANCIS ON THE OCCASION OF NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF DALIT CHRISTIANS ONÂ AT THE SPEAKER HALL, CONSTITUTION CLUB, VITTHALBHAI PATEL HOUSE, RAFI MARG, NEW DELHI

Church leadership has been running more than 40,000 health, educational and other social organisations in the country. After Government of India, Church has the largest proportion of land in the country. The Church has some of the best educational institutions in its control, which cater to the needs of affluent and
elite sections at the cost of Dalit Christians and poorer sections. Even in Delhi the Capital of India, the number of Dalit Christian children in Church-run schools is negligible. Till today, Church has not been able to establish or form any Educational Council for Dalit Christians in the country. In other words, the entire wealth of the Church is being controlled and only by high class Christians. Christian money, their real estate and all other means are being utilised for the benefit of others by neglecting Dalit Christians or poorer sections.

Church leadership opposes the policy of reservations for Dalit Christians in missionary schoolsÂ <!--emo& Big Grin

--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /> and organisations while they have been demanding the same from the Government at the Centre. Bishops monopolising the Church estates are treating it as their own property and are indulging in its sale-purchase as per their own sweet will even without the consent of the community. Church leadership does not give Dalit Christians equal treatment. The amount of funds received by the Church for the development of Dalit Christians is never disclosed to the community nor do they give any indication as to how this amount has been utilised. Church Diocese or the local priests never disclose the actual number or socio-economic condition of Dalit Christians in their respective areas.

However, the Church leadership has spent a lot on Evangelism and continues to do so even now. Church leadership ignores the welfare of Converted Christians and adopts new measures and experiments for wooing Dalit sections for their vested interests. At the Durban Conference of the United Nations in 2001, the Church of India shed crocodile tears for crores and crores of Dalits in India. But in reality, Church was indulging in grave injustice to their own Dalit Christian brethren numbering over two crores.

Christian missionaries are vying with each other to promote blind faith among Dalit Christians. Huge gatherings of people are arranged in the name of Evangelism and religious congregations, in which claims are openly made that blind will see, dumb will speak and disabled will run, just to promote blind faith among the poor Christians. Even if one person gets cured of his illness caused by his own mental pressure, the incident is publicised to such an extent that Dalit Christians fall in the deep well of blind faith and get trapped in the vicious cycle of
exploitation of the priests. In these Evangelical gatherings, the priest referring to the name of Christ orders the ghost of sickness to leave the person. In these circumstances, it becomes difficult for anyone to distinguish between a priest and a tantrik.

RESOLUTIONS PASSED UNANIMOUSLY AT THE 4TH NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF DALIT CHRISTIANS ORGANISED BY POOR CHRISTIAN LIBERATION MOVEMENT ON 6 AUGUST 2003 IN THE SPEAKERS HALL, CONSTITUTION CLUB, V.P. HOUSE, RAFI MARG, NEW DELHI:

I Resolution:
Demands of Dalit Christians as contained in the New Delhi Declaration released by the Movement on 19 June 2002 should be adopted and conceded by the Catholic Bishop Conference of India (CBCI), the National Council for Churches in India (NCCI) and other Church bodies immediately.

II Resolution:
This Assembly unanimously believes that Evangelism cannot be a measurement of a societys socio-economic development. Therefore, Evangelism programme should be suspended for 100 years and funds thus saved be utilised for development and welfare of Dalits and deprived sections and creating awareness amongst them.

III Resolution:
In Church-run schools, colleges, technical institutions and other vocational organisations, Reservation of seats for Dalit Christians as well as other Dalits should be provided immediately. A time-bound programme of action should be chalked out to implement a meaningful education plan.

IV Resolution:
Both Protestant and Catholic Church leadership should issue a White Paperon i) Participation of Dalit Christians in the present Church structure; and ii) Socio-economic condition of Dalit Chrisitans in respective Dioceses of the country.

Dalits - Real Issues & Discussion - Guest - 07-17-2006

QUOTEDalits do not need to convert to ISLAM or CHRISTIANITY, because Hindu dalits get far better treatment in their own religion than in ISLAM or CHRISTIANITY. Please read below:
http://www.hindunet.org/home/social_contem...n/casteism.html

CASTEISM IN NON-HINDU RELIGIONS
Casteism is often regard as a religious matter of the Hindus. However in India other religions too are equally caste riddled.Â Sikhism, Islam and Christianity formally do not sanction caste since the varna-dharma concept do not exist in their founding ideology. Nevertheless, in reality members of all three replicate the Hindu caste pattern including untouchability.

Â Â Â Â Â Sikhism was begun by Guru Nanak in Punjab in sixteenth century who invited all irrespective of caste to join him as equals. He was followed by nine gurus who kept up the tradition. Respect for manual labour is enjoined on Sikhs so that no one is held to be high or low because of his occupation. Sikh commitment to equality is demonstrated by the institutions of 'sangat' (gathering) and 'langar' (dining).Â It is a religious requirement forÂ Sikhs to socialize in the gurudwara (temple) and take food together in the community dining hall.Â Since commsensality is the most important element of caste, such practices break down caste -barriers.Â Priesthood was open to all. The new religion was naturally attractive to low castes andÂ many joined. However, gradually, social forces came into play and inevitably all kinds of distinctions came in.
Â Â Â Â Sikhism does not have any Brahmin as such, but the equivalent position is occupied by Jats, a land-owning and soldiering caste. Belonging to the peasant caste, which is a low caste, they had converted to Sikhism : there they found mobility and soon established themselves at the top by virtue of their wealth and political power.
By theÂ seventeenth century a greatÂ Sikh empire had been established. But Sikh society had also become split into several castes like Jats, Arora, Ramdasias, Khatris etc., with them further subdivided and it was hierarchical. The various castes were strictly ranked, and commsensality and connubium was adhered to rigidly. All Sikhs were equal in langar, but in the outside world social difference were legitimized. Even untouchability made a return; Sikh untouchables, calledÂ Mazhabis, were denied access to gurudwaras and village wells. When the Sikhs took service in British army, Sikh regiments were caste based, since the higher castes would neither mix nor take orders from lower castes. CasteÂ was a way for Jats to retain their social dominance.
Â Â Â Â Â Â Â In 1880's Bhai Kahn Singh published his book Hum Hindu Nahi.Â The aim of the book backed by a large number of educated Sikhs was to persuade the British that Sikhs constituted a separateÂ people from Hindus so that Sikhs should have their own representatives and laws. The thesis of the book was thatÂ Sikhism did not not support Varna, while Hinduism does. Probably in answer , Gianni Ditt Singh, a disillusioned new convert, wrote Naqli Sikh Prabodh; he pointed out that an amritdhari or fully baptized Sikh retained his caste name and an untouchable remained an untouchable even after conversion.
Â Â Â Â Â Â In 1900's Rahtia Sikhs tried to enter the Golden Temple, the chief temple of Sikhs. The head Sardar ordered their arrest. The reason for their barring was that they were impure and so defiled the purity of the temple.
Â Â Â Â Â Â Because of dangerous reformistÂ tendencies developing, the Khalsa Dharam Shastra was published in 1914. It strictly laid down the rules. Members of Mazhabi, Rahtia and Ramdasia castes did not have the rightÂ to go beyond four steps inside the Golden Temple. The four Varnas were instructed not to mix with the untouchable Sikhs. Those guilty of breaking the caste rules were called 'patit' or fallen and were shunned by civil society.
Â Â Â Â Â Â 1920' s saw the Gurudwara Reform Movement which continued to gather steam.Â The religious body ofÂ SGPC was set up and they passed resolution to ban untouchability and took in low caste priests. However it did not make much headway. Even in 1933 the head of Golden Temple noted that mahzbis' offerings ofÂ consecrated food were not accepted and other Sikhs denied them use of public utilities. (One story is that when Ambedkar wanted Hindu dalits to convert to Sikhism, Sikh dalits told him of the atrocities they suffered daily and dissuaded him). In fact so entrenched had the caste system become in the Sikh psyche that after Independence the Sikh leaders demanded that Sikh untouchables should have the same reservationÂ rights as Hindu untouchables. Thus the same Sikhs who demanded that the Indian Constitution recognize them as a separate religion because they did not recognize caste , now argued thatÂ not recognizing Sikhs had untouchables was discrimination against Sikhs.Â Since then caste system hadÂ continued among the Sikhs, though concern with purity and mixing is less than it si with the Hindus.
Â Â Â Â A survey in 2001 foundÂ that each castes have separate temples. Most villages even have separate crematoriums for dalits. Though the upper castes insist there is no discrimination because Sikhism do not believe in caste, the dalits tell a different story. They had to sit at the last rows in the temple, to eat last at langar (which defeats its purpose), are often not allowed to cook or serve food at langar, are not allowed to carry the Granth sahib or Sikh holy book and is often taunted for their origins.Â If the try to cross the limits set for them (like taking out a guruparb procession or entering a caste gurudwara) violence is inflicted on them by the upper castes. The more they assert themselves, the more atrocities are inflicted on them, religion notwithstanding.
Â Â Â Â Â Sikhism is confined to a limited area, is a newer religion andÂ had been documented extensively since its inception; hence it is easier to study the development of caste hierarchy in it. Study of Sikh social history tells us a great deal about the rise ofÂ caste in Hinduism.

Â Â Â Â The Indian Muslim society is divided intoÂ Asrafs (noble) and non-Asrafs. Ashrafs and non-Ashrafs are collectively referred to as 'oonchi zat' (high caste) and 'neechi zat' (low caste). In their turn Asrafs are subdivided intoÂ Sayyids supposedly descendants of Muhammad, Shaykhs (Arabic: "Chiefs"), descendants of Arab or Persian invaders, Pathans (members of Pasthun tribes) and Mughals. It is not that all who belong to such castes actually are descended from these races; but high hindu castes who have become absorbed into them took such designations as well.Â Economic relationships between Asrafs and non-AsrafsÂ depend on the jajman-kamin or patron-client system. The non-ashraf Muslim castes are similarly subdivided into farmer, artisan castes etc., with untouchables at the bottom. They follow the same rules of endogamy and intermixing as do their Hindu counterparts. Though rules of pollution are less strict, they are nevertheless observed so that people like barbers are treated as untouchables. Nightsoil and carrion carriers form the most untouchable caste whose very touch pollutes. Even mosques are sometimes separate. Among the non-Asrafs superiority or inferiority of a caste is determined by the relatively pure or impure nature of the occupation associated with each, and how close they come to physical proximity of the Asrafs in their daily activities. However non-Asrafs are always inferior to Asrafs. If an Asraf marries non-Asraf the Asrafs will not accept him or her as equal and would not dine with them, particulary not on formal occasions before the general public.Â The non-Asrafs are also known as Ajlaf meaning wretched, mean. Even after conversion all the old practices remain. For example,Â Meos are Muslim rajputs who employed BrahminÂ genealogists to fabricate claims toÂ Ksatiryahood.

Â Â Â The case is the same with Indian Christians.Â They too are divided into a number of castes with the previously Brahmin castes at the top and untouchables at the bottom.Â The same rules of Hindu caste system govern them, and they are known by their caste names --- Christian Nayars,Â Christian Paraya etc.Â Hardly any lower castes are allowed to be appointed as priest. Untouchables have separate graveyards and churches. So entrenched is the system that if a Christian upper caste cannot find a suitable caste Christian to marry, then a Hindu of the same caste will be selected rather than another Christian ofÂ lower caste. The Dalits who converted to Christianity possibly gained a new sense of self-respect, but the gains were wiped out by the fact that uppercaste Christians from whose ranks their religious superiors come still treated them as untouchables. There has been recorded instances of priests refusing to enter the houses of their dalit congregation; the mission schools have separate arrangmenets for dalits and other castes. Nor did their relationship with Hindu castes change in any way. So, many Dalit Christians have either started new churches themselvesÂ or reconverted back to Hinduism. How castesim is practised by Christians is attested by the Christian dalits themselves.

www.dalitchristians.com:
"But the irony isÂ that caste discrimination is very much practised in Christianity. For example, there are separate seats for the dalits in churches; in factÂ Â there are separate churches for Christian dalits, separate communionÂ cups, and even separate burial grounds. As Mr. Kaka Karlekar. ChairmanÂ of the Backward Classes Commission, commented, "even today theÂ Christians belonging to the SCs are forced to have separate cemeteries in some parts of India. Even the dead must observe caste and untouchability."

Though Christianity also does not recognize caste system, there are upper and lower caste among Christians. In Goa, for example, there are upper caste Catholic Brahmins who do not marry Christians belonging to the lower castes. In many churches, the low caste Christians have to sit apart from the high caste Christians. In Andhra Pradesh, there are Christian Dalit, Christian Malas, Christian Reddys, Christian Kammas, etc. In Tamil Nadu, converts to Christianity form Scheduled Castes - Latin Catholics, Christian Shanars, and Christian Gramani are in the list of Scheduled Castes. Such instances are many and vary from region to region.

" The external forms of untouchability and their practice still exist among Christians, within the Church, in the graveyard, in the festivals, in marriage alliances, etc. The most unfortunate thing is that the caste Christians,Â practising these inhuman acts are often supported by their own caste-priests and nuns, who even encourage them to attack Dalit Christians. That is the main reason for caste-practice continuing in the Church. Incidents in the past and also in recent years prove that in those areas and villages where large number of priests and nuns have been ordained, (few example: Thatchoor in Madras diocese, Eraiyur in Pondy diocese, Varadarajanpet in Kumbakonam diocese)Â the Caste-Christians are more active in oppressing Dalit Christians and resisting vigorously when they demand dignity, equality, and justice. Most of the caste priests, nuns and some in hierarchical positions use their money, authority and institutional power against Dalit Christians at the times of crisis, instead of supporting their just cause. We are saying this from many experience".

"Archbishop George Zur, the apostolic Pro-nuncio to India spoke to the Catholic Bishops Conference of India (CBCI) in December 1991, declaring ....: "Though Catholics of the lower castes and tribes form sixty percent of church membership, they have no place in decision-making. Scheduled caste converts are treated as low caste not only by high caste Hindus but by high caste Christians too. In rural areas they cannot own or rent houses, however well-placed they may be. Separate places are marked for them in the parish churches and burial grounds. Inter- caste marriages are frowned upon and caste tags are still appended to the Christian names of high caste people. Casteism is rampant among the clergy and the religious. Though Dalit Christians make up 65 percent of the ten million Christians in the south, less than 4 percent of the parishes are entrusted to Dalit Priests. There are no Dalits among thirteen Catholic bishops of Tamilnadu or among the Vicars-General and Rectors of seminaries and Directors ofÂ Social AssistanceÂ Centres."
Â Â Â Protestant Churches suffer from the same malaise.

The feelings of the low castes can be gauged from the event where about a 1,000 Dalit Christians armed with lethal weapons had barged into the "Conversion Victory Mela" on July 13, 2002 at the Chengalput St. Joseph's Church shouting "Don't dupe Dalit Hindus by promising equal treatment!"

It might appear surprising that Islam and Christianity though being religions of equality should be so riddled with caste. Their apologists invariably explain that Hinduism has corrupted them. Of course it is true that when castes converted enbloc, they carried all their baggage with them and the economic-politicalÂ forces ensured that the social relationships do not change. But they ignore the beam in their own eye, viz that, though all Muslims or all Christians might be equal in God's eyes, the religious institutions had always sanctioned social inequality.

Â Â Â Â Â Among the Arabs the Querash claimed excellence by virtue of being Prophet's tribe, and Omar distributed booty according to the length of time one has been a convert. In India the names of the Asrafs give away their claims to superiority; they were superior because of their birthÂ from conquering invaders, while their conquered subjects were low or ajlaf. Rather like the varna system, Humayun brought with him a Muslim society divided into Ahl-e-kalam or clergy, Ahl-e-Jegh or warriors and Ahl-e-Murad.Â Above all slavery was practiced. Though the Koran says thatÂ freeing slaves is a meritorious act slavery was never abolished; Muhammad himself enslaved captives of war and freely engaged in buying and selling slaves --- there can be no greater social discrimination than that. Therefore though the Muslim rulers and clergy expressed surprise at untouchability which did not exist among them, they saw nothing wrong with a endogamous hierarchy and made no attempts to change things when their co-religionists practiced it. Indeed there do not seem to haveÂ been any highly regarded Islamic authority who ever spoke of an equal society.

Â Â Â Â Â In Christianity also, spiritual salvation was no guarantee of social equality.Â Whatever Christ may have taught, the Christian Church had never been too eager for equality. The New Testamentcondones slavery explicitly.
Â Â Ephesians 6: 5-9:
Slaves, obey your earthly masters with respect and fear, and with sincerity of heart, just as you would obey Christ. Obey them not only to win their favor when their eye is on you, but like slaves of Christ, doing the will of God from your heart. Serve wholeheartedly, as if you were serving the Lord, not men, because you know that the Lord will reward everyone for whatever good he does, whether he is slave or free. And masters, treat your slaves in the same way. Do not threaten them, since you know that he who is both their Master and yours is in heaven, and there is no favoritism with him.
Â Â Â 1 Timothy 6:1-3 "Let as many servants as are under the yoke count their own masters worthy of all honor, that the name of God and his doctrine be not blasphemed. And they that have believing masters, let them not despise them, because they are brethren; but rather do them service, because they are faithful and beloved, partakers of the benefit. These things teach and exhort. If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness;"
Â Â Â Â Titus 2:9-10:
Teach slaves to be subject to their masters in everything, to try to please them, not to talk back to them, and not to steal from them, but to show that they can be fully trusted, so that in every way they will make the teaching about God our Savior attractive.
Â Â Â Â 1 Peter 2:18-21:
Slaves, submit yourselves to your masters with all respect, not only to those who are good and considerate, but also to those who are harsh. For it is commendable if a man bears up under the pain of unjust suffering because he is conscious of God. But how is it to your credit if you receive a beating for doing wrong and endure it? But if you suffer for doing good and you endure it, this is commendable before God. To this you were called, because Christ suffered for you, leaving you an example, that you should follow in his steps.
Â Â Â Â Philemon 1:6.
He is no longer just a slave; he is a beloved brother, especially to me. Now he will mean much more to you, both as a slave and as a brother in the Lord.

Slavery was continued in Christian Byzantine and slavesÂ were kept in the heart of Catholic Rome by the Popes during medieval age. USA of course practised slavery , justifying it with quotes from the Bible.

Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â During Middle Ages Europe was ruled the hierarchical system of feudalism --- though pollution was not a concern and interdining was allowed, in every other respect from dress codes to marriage rules it showed the same pattern as the caste system. The Church taught that this feudalism is divinely ordained, and a good Christian who did not protest his lowly position would be rewarded by God. After the Protestant revolution at first there was some impulse towards equality and reformation within the Church. . But soon both Catholic and Protestant Churches became more interested in retaining power and gaining wealth. The mainstream ChurchesÂ taught that one should not rebel against the status quo; indeed after the 1857 mutiny in India, the Monghyr Baptists told the British govt. that had they been allowed to convert all Hindus then the mutiny would never have happened because "Christianity does not teach subjects to rebel".

Â Â Â Â Â Â When these Churches came to India it was never with the idea to change society; saving souls was only a way to swell their numbers. Letters still exist from the Colonial times where we find churches engaged in bidding for heathen souls. Caste leaders would send letters asking what material benefits each Church could offer even listing what other Churches had offered; an auction of sorts would ensue until the whole caste converted. When uppercastes converted it was with the understanding that caste distinctions would be maintained. Some priests did try to do away with these practices but the Churches were more anxious not to upset wealthy and powerful patrons. The missionaries themselves came from a society that was class-based with fixed ideas about how each class should behave. So though they found untouchability to be againstÂ Christian principles they found nothing wrong with a hierarchical society per se. (Not to mention they missed the irony of trying to separate the Hindus and Christians on basis of purity). Moreover the Britishers brought with them racism. They thought that darker skinnedÂ people were inherently inferior.Â When the first Brahmin clergyman, (fully convinced of his
superiority as well) demanded equal salary with European missionaries his religious superiors were scandalized. They spoke bitterly of his ingratitude and lamented that natives now thought themselves to be as good as white men. It is not surprising therefore that the Churches made no serious attempts at eradicating casteism, though the Bishops are fond of proclaiming loudly how they are eradicating caste.Â In fact even now certain Christian groups are quite prepared to accept caste, if only Hindus would convert.

Dalits - Real Issues & Discussion - Guest - 07-22-2006

QUOTE
Archive of a message on racists IER yahoogroup:
http://www.sabha.info/misc/violentconv.txt

----- Original Message -----
From: Benjamin Marsh
To: Indo-Eurasian_research@yahoogroups.com
Sent: 17 July 2006 Monday 05:28
Subject: [Indo-Eurasia] Dalit Freedom Network Petition on Anti-Conversion Laws

[Mod. note. Please see the note and petition below, directed at
India's Prime Minister Singh, President Bush, and other officials,
from Ben Marsh, the Washington, D.C. lobbyist for the Dalit Freedom
Network. If you don't know about India's anti-conversion laws, please
see the links in Ben's note. Anti-conversion laws, masked as "Freedom
of Religion" laws, are supposedly aimed against "forceful" or
"fraudulent" conversion of Hindus by Christians or Muslims. But their
real object, promoted by high-caste groups in the Hindu right, is to
uphold the caste status quo: historically, most Indian Christians and
Muslims too have come from the most oppressed levels of Indian
society.Â The laws have often been tied to anti-minority violence, as
noted in the U.S. State Department report linked below, which among
much else relates how in 2003 Karsan Patel, the "Minister for Social
Justice and Empowerment" in Gujarat, "publicly told tribal school
children in a Christian-run school 'to decide whether they want to
live as Hindus or die as Christians.'" I plan on emailing Ben and
asking him to add my name. If you do too, please add your academic
title or affiliation, if you have one; feel free too to post his note
elsewhere. - saf.]

Dear List Members,

At the end of this post you'll find a letter addressed to the Prime Minister
of India that will be copied to India's Chief Ministers, the U.S. State
Department, the White House, and several Members of Congress dealing with
"Freedom of Religion" legislation present in six Indian states. Please email
me if you are willing to sign it or if you want a pdf copy. Please also feel
free to circulate it to other Lists. At the end you will find a list of
current signatories.

India's so-called "Anti-Conversion Laws", ostensibly written to protect
uneducated low-caste people from being tricked into converting by
evangelical Christians and Muslims, instead serve to restrict public
services like healthcare and economic development being pursued by minority
religions. More troublesome is the fact that these laws have been used by
persecutors to give excuse to their violent crimes in the name of vigilante
justice.

My organization and our partners will be the first to discredit Christian
organizations that forcibly allure low-caste people or pay for converts, but
the reality is that no documented instances of forced conversion have
ever taken place. These laws are truly a reactionary measure to stem
the tide of
low-caste people and untouchables away from

Hinduism into what they consider to be more "spiritually democratic"
religions.

To give you some background on these laws, let me point you to the U.S.
State Department's most recent Religious Freedom Department report:

http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/irf/2005/51618.htm

The State Department officially opposes the laws.

Christian Solidarity Worldwide UK has also written an excellent report
highlighting the problems with these laws: problems including vague
language, unequal enforcement, and disproportionate punishment for different
castes and religions. Moreover, the report highlights the international
obligations to which India has agreed and the sections of the Indian
constitution that deal with religious freedom which these laws violate.

http://tinyurl.com/jslr6

The Dalit Freedom Network and CSW UK are partnering to bring a week of
attention to these laws. I have letters circulating in the US House and
Senate and CSW has a letter circulating in Parliament. Additionally, the
Congressional Human Right Caucus is hosting a staff briefing next Friday on
the issue. This letter is an important part of the effort to encourage the
government of India to change their laws.

While written from a US perspective, I think the letter is general enough
that any who oppose these laws can add their name. Please send me an email
if you would like to add your name.

The letter:

**************

Dear Prime Minister Singh,

As academics, activists, and religious leaders we look forward to growing
economic, social, and political ties between the United States and India. We
are concerned, however, by the enactment of anti-conversion legislation in
several Indian states.Â These laws seriously limit the right of Indian
citizens to freely practice their chosen faiths and cause us to question
your government's commitment to religious freedom.

Six Indian states have already enacted legislation which restricts the right
of citizens to convert from one faith to another. These laws clearly
contradict Article 18 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights and of
the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights. We urge the
Governments of Orissa, Madhya Pradesh, Chhattisgarh, Arunachal Pradesh,
Gujarat and Rajasthan to repeal these unjust laws.

The United States and India are entering into an unprecedented partnership.
It is within the context of friendship and with hope that we ask the
Government of India and the Indian States to defend and uphold the freedoms
and rights that your forefathers sacrificed to protect. As the world's
largest democracy and an emerging economic power, India is a role model to
nascent democracies and developing nations across the globe.Â By repealing
these laws and ensuring the future protection of religious minorities, India
would set a powerful example to other nations dealing with inter-religious
strife and would advance our mutual interests of protecting global human
rights and advancing democracy.

Centuries of human experience show that the law cannot constrain the
conscience for long.Â Freedom of religion-including the freedom to
convert-is the most fundamental of human liberties.Â We hope you will agree
with us that anti-conversion laws are unacceptable and have no place in a
free democracy.Â We await your response.

Sincerely,

Nanci Ricks
Executive Director
Dalit Freedom Network

Peggy Birchfield
Executive Director
Religious Freedom Coalition

Richard Cizik
Vice President for Government Affairs
National Association of Evangelicals

Barrett Duke, Ph.D.
Vice President for Public Policy and Research
The Ethics & Religious Liberty Commission
Southern Baptist Convention

William Greene
President
RightMarch.com

Arie de Pater
Advocacy Director
Open Doors International

Bill Saunders
Human Rights Counsel
Family Research Council

Andrea Lafferty
Executive Director
Traditional Values Coalition

Lindsay Vessey
Advocacy Coordinator
Open Doors USA

Kristin Wright
Executive Director
Stand Today

Wendy Wright
President
Concerned Women for America

Angela C. Wu
Director of International Advocacy
The Becket Fund for Religious Libert

Benjamin Marsh
Washington, DC Coordinator
Dalit Freedom Network
(703) 973-1243
Why do all these Dalits President, Coordinator, Director have Christian sounding names? That too American ones?

Dalits - Real Issues & Discussion - Guest - 07-22-2006

who are the dalits actually??

how come there were no dalits in the beginning of the hindu caste system... or were there??

[edited - not needed]

Dalits - Real Issues & Discussion - Guest - 07-22-2006

QUOTE(aruni @ Jun 9 2006, 09:09 PM)<div class='quotetop'>QUOTEDalit Pandits have learnt Sanskrit to ensure that Dalit weddings are performed with Vedic rituals.

Over the past year nearly 60 Dalits have been trained in various disciplines of Hindu priesthood by Sanskritam, an NGO in Kota.
[right][snapback]52298[/snapback][/right]</div>Finally, some good news for a change. Excellent.
They appear to:
(1) be Hindus and with an obvious respect and appreciation for their Vedic traditions, Hindu religion and background. It is apparent from the fact that they've bothered to put in so much effort to learn Samskritam and train themselves in the various areas of being brahmanas.
(2) have great interest in wanting to learn, perform and continue Hindu traditions so that these are never lost and so that an important need for trained brahmanas is fulfilled in Hindu communities in Kota.
(3) be pure of intention. Therefore, having trained so diligently, they would have obviously developed the associated lifestyle (vegetarianism, maybe also daily rituals like Sandhya).

This is all very good news indeed. I no longer need to fear that some of the current pseudo-'brahmins' are becoming communist or p-sec or Christo mlecchas and that there's a drain away of people to fill the brahmana position.
This article proves that Hindu India will always produce real brahmanas to replace the mleccha population. It will always produce people who are truly interested in and value Hindu tradition, and sincere seekers after truth - as it has always done.

Their sincere intentions and efforts indicate that they are brahmanas. Now if only the Harijan communities would give rise to more real kshatriyas to replace any p-sec mleccha former-kshatriyas and swell existing (real) kshatriya numbers too.

May the great Pillaiyar (Ganapathi) bless all their endeavours and remove all obstacles from their path
May Saraswati bless them and their descendants with exceptional knowledge of the Atman and Paramatman and with great intelligence and intellect
May Kali give them all excellent knowledge of Samskritam so they may teach and preserve it
May Chamundeshwari protect them from all dangers
May Shiva give them inner strength and lead them to self-realisation and Moksha
May Mahavishnu instill in them and their descendants a strong sense and knowledge of Dharma and may he help them to preserve it
May Mahalakshmi bless them with complete Sowbhagyam
May Shanmuga bless them with joy and free them of all sorrows and illnesses
May Mahendra and the other Devargal bless all their rituals and sacrifices
May the Rishis guide them in their quest for Truth
May they give rise to many more Rishis, Vyasas, Valmikis, Adi Shankaracharyas, Kalidasas to Vivekanandas and Aurobindos
May they give rise to many more Ramas, Sitas, Shakuntalas, Bharatas, Krishnas, Pandavas, and Jhansi ke Ranis

(I guess that turned into being a little prayer out loud. Better end it well: Om shantih, shantih, shantihi)

But I don't like the way it is reported:
QUOTEKota Dalits 'break' temple tradition
"We are getting a lot of respect from our Harijan community. ... " said another Dalit pandit.Reporter uses 'Dalit' whilst of course the Hindu being interviewed doesn't designate his community by this p-sec-Christo term.
And then this:
QUOTEBy performing private pujas, the Dalit pandits have clearly broken an upper caste bastion.
But though they have been fully trained to become temple priests, so far none of them have actually been appointed in a temple.Everything is presented as if the community is doing something against Hinduism. Nonsense. They're just being very Hindu that's all.
And ending on a sour note: "so far ... not appointed in a temple". Not all brahmanas end up in temples, some teach, others perform Vedic sacrifices sometimes in people's homes.
Besides, existing temples probably already have brahmanas presiding over them. I say it's time for more temples to come up (especially to replace all the ones destroyed by the Christo-Islamics). Then there will be more need for temple brahmanas and any of these new brahmanas looking to go into that field should get in there.
Here's a thought: they should fill in official forms as Harijans, so that they get money (and use it to build temples) and get reservations to make it easier to put their children through proper schooling. Beat the lousy system.

Good stuff.

Dalits - Real Issues & Discussion - Guest - 07-22-2006

QUOTE(ben_ami @ Jul 22 2006, 12:46 AM)who are the dalits actually??

how come there were no dalits in the beginning of the hindu caste system... or were there??

[edited - not needed]
[right][snapback]54280[/snapback][/right]

fine... but answer the question someone - who are the dalits actually?? descendants of slaves the muslims brought... who ofcourse werent allowed to enter the caste system?? or by "edited" theory??

Dalits - Real Issues & Discussion - Guest - 08-08-2006

QUOTEAugust 5, 2006

Sonia Gandhi opposes Anti Conversion Bills
Christians demand for review of development status, conversions

News release for Dalit Freedom Network in association with OM India/A.I.C.C./SC-ST Federations

NEW DELHI, INDIA (ANS) -- The Indian Congress President, Mrs. Sonia Gandhi, has voiced her party's strong opposition or anti conversion laws, called Freedom of religion Bills, being enacted by several BJP ruled states.

In a signed letter to Dr John Dayal, a member of the National Integration Council and President of the All India Catholic Union, Mrs. Gandhi said "The Congress Party's views on this are well known. These are enactments passed by the State legislatures where the Congress is in Opposition. The Congress Party has opposed this strongly in the assembly and through demonstrations." Dr. Dayal previously submitted a letter to Mrs. Ghandi signed by prominent civil and religious leaders from across India.

The letter comes even as several Christian leaders are meeting with the National Commission for Minorities to raise this and other issues. They are calling for a comprehensive review of the social, economic and political situation of the Christian Minorities in India. They are also asking for an official statement from every State detailing any instances of forcible conversions. BJP-ruled state governments have been using alleged "forced conversions" as an excuse to pass restrictive anti-conversion legislation targeting Christian and Muslim activity.

Dalit Freedom Network partners Rev. Madhu Chandra, Albert Lael, Sam Paul, Jose MD, and Dr John Dayal along with Delhi Archbishop Vincent Concessao and Church of North India General Secretary Rev Enos Das Pradhan as well as several other prominent Christian leaders met with Chairman Hamid Ansari and vice Chairman PM Pinto from the National Commission for Minorities.

The community leaders reminded the Commission "its first and main allegiance was to the Constitution of India and is obliged to monitor the Government of India and its policies and practices, as those of the State governments, to ensure that at no time do religious minorities feel they live in an unjust system, or that Government and its apparatus is deaf to their pain. We demand nothing more, and nothing less, than what is our right as Citizens of a free India."

The harassment or erosion of rights of even the smallest and most vulnerable group is an erosion of the rights of the entire Minority community guaranteed under the Constitution. The Commission must therefore communicate a comprehensive picture of the social, economic, religious and other problems faced by the Christian community in the country â everything from issues relating to Visas and FCRA, physical violence, and hate campaigns.

A complete copy of the Charter of Requests to the Government of India given by the Christian delegation is available from the DFN by
request. Contact them at 5350 S. Roslyn., Suite 200,
Greenwood Village, CO 80111 USA.
Phone: 303-221-1333 Toll Free: 866-921-1333.
Their website is: www.dalitnetwork.org.

<img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/ROTFL.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='ROTFL.gif' /> "Dalits" based in US <img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/ROTFL.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='ROTFL.gif' />

Dalits - Real Issues & Discussion - Guest - 08-08-2006

QUOTEDalit Freedom Network partners Rev. Madhu Chandra, Albert Lael, Sam Paul, Jose MD, and Dr John Dayal along with Delhi Archbishop Vincent Concessao and Church of North India General Secretary Rev Enos Das Pradhan as well as several other prominent Christian leaders met with Chairman Hamid Ansari and vice Chairman PM Pinto from the National Commission for Minorities
All dalit representative are Christians. <!--emo& Big Grin

--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' />
Why christians are discriminating against Dalit? Now I am learning about Christian caste "Dalit".

Dalits - Real Issues & Discussion - Guest - 08-08-2006

QUOTE fine... but answer the question someone - who are the dalits actually?? descendants of slaves the muslims brought... who ofcourse werent allowed to enter the caste system?? or by "edited" theory??

This is a more difficult question to answer. Please note that this is my opinion only:
Let us leave the word Dalit out of the picture, it is too loaded.

From a upper caste person's point of view, they were castes whose occupations and food habits makes them taboo to the touch; some were toddy tappers (taboo: alcohol), carriers of night soil, butchers (taboo: beef), makers of leather, etc.
This probably means that you could not enter your house if you touched them, unless you took a bath.

QUOTEhow come there were no dalits in the beginning of the hindu caste system... or were there??
Again, this is almost beyond my competence to answer. So, here I go!
Many of these occupations probably did not exist at the time. Imagine how sparsely populated India was 3500-5000 year ago. Occupational specialization came about as the density of the population increased. So, those families and communities who began to specialize in taboo occupations, eventually became untouchable to everybody else.

In fact, I think the reason for even the existing caste system is this:
As the population density increased, not only were these castes (Dalit/Harijan) specializing in these occupations, other castes were specializing out of them. So, eventually the latter became "pure"/non-polluting castes who graduated up the ladder even as the former ended up going down the ladder.

Dalits - Real Issues & Discussion - Guest - 08-14-2006

Dalits still face atrocity, says Arjun
Tribune News Service

New Delhi, August 10
Regretting that the society chooses to pretend that atrocity against the marginalised people is a thing of the past, HRD Minister Arjun Singh today pointed out that in doing so we are exposing ourselves to great danger.

Speaking at the release of a book, ''Untouchability in Rural India'', he said, âthere is a feeling now among some sections of the society that these things are of the past, why bother, why take action, this is the greatest danger to the society when such feelings permeate. This danger should be met nowâ.

The book, which lays open the caste-based segregation that perpetuates even in the present day India, has been authored by Ghanshyam Shah, Harsh Mander, Sukhdeo Thorat, Satish Deshpande and Amita Baviskar.

Referring to the book, Shah, one of the authors, said while he did agree that untouchability had declined to some extent, the change was small and insignificant. He said the labour market still was the witness to extreme discrimination.

âAll Dalits do not suffer equally, the educated ones who have government or private jobs are less discriminated than those who are agricultural workers and scavengers. Our argument is that along with culture and dignity, the economic aspect of the Dalits makes them the poorest of the poor,â Shah said.

Noted film maker Shyam Benegal, who was also present on the occasion, shared case studies of discrimination against the marginalised in India, which he was witness to during the making of his films.

Prof. T.K.Oomen, echoing the views that society turns an indifferent eye towards atrocity being committed against the Dalits, said the society suffered from âcognitive blackoutâ, he said, people had a peculiar ability to not see what they did not want to.

UGC Chairman Prof. Thorat regretted the contradiction, he said, ''on the one hand the Constitution promised equality and on the other hand we have practices like untouchability''.

Dalits - Real Issues & Discussion - Guest - 09-08-2006

A festival of dalits and tribals
- By Akshaya Kumar Sahoo
http://www.asianage.com/

[quote]

Puri (Orissa): The annual car festival or Rath Yatra of Lord Jagannath offers a chance to thousands of devotees â especially the tribals, dalits and others irrespective of their caste, creed and colour â to touch, see and pray the deity directly, without any obstacles or help of the temple priests.

The annual festival begins on the second day of the bright fortnight of Aashada (June-July) and continues for nine days. On this day, Lord Jagannath, his elder brother Balabhadra and sister Subhadra come out from their 12th century temple and ride to their aunt Gundicha's house, three kilometres away from the temple.

Every year, Lord Jagannath, considered to be the incarnation Vishnu in Kaliyug, travels to his aunt's house during the course of which tribals and Muslims are allowed to enter the temple to see the god from very close quarters. Devotees touch the deities when they come out in pahandis or royal processions to their respective chariots. During the pahandi devotees even snatch away flowers and other decorating articles from tahia (umbrella) of the deities with a belief that they (flowers and decorating articles) would bring happiness and prosperity to them.

Symbolically, the Rath Yatra is a journey from darkness to light and from ignorance to enlightenment. It commemorates the journey of Lord Krishna from Gokul to Mathhura. In this religious journey, Jagannath, Subhadra and Balbhadra are taken out in procession in three chariots. The main rath Nandigosh is 43-foot high, 33-foot wide and has 16 wheels. Lord Balabhadra's rath is called Taladvaja. It is 44-foot high and has 14 wheels. The fabric colour of the roof is red and green. Darpadalan is the chariot of Subhadra. It is 43-feet high with 12 wheels fitted into it. The fabric colour of the roof is red and black.

After the deities are installed on their respective chariots, the traditional Gajapati king of Puri sweeps the chariots with a golden broom. This menial service by the king is called Chhera Pahanra. After the Chhera Pahanra, comes the most exciting part of the yatra. The devotees pull the splendidly decorated chariots to the Gundicha temple. The deities stay in their aunt's house for a week. On Aashada Shukla Dasami or the 10th day of the bright fortnight of Aashada (June-July), the return journey or Bahudayatra of the deities commences in the same manner from Gundicha temple to the main temple like that of the Rath Yatra.

Before going in their original abode, the deities are dressed in golden attire on the chariots the next day. This occasion, called Sunabesha, is witnessed by thousands of devotees.

When two months of Aashada fall in one year, the Rath Yatra is observed as the festival of Nabakalebar. The old deities are buried within the temple premises (Koilibaikuntha) and are replaced by new deities, carved out of neem trees for which there are a set procedures.

Double Aashada occurs at intervals of eight and 19 years. As history records, Nabakalebar was held in 1996, 1977, 1969, 1950 and 1931 during this century. Apart from Puri, Rath Yatra is observed with equal fervour at Ahmedabad in Gujarat, New Delhi, Kolkata and Mahesh in Hoogly district of West Bengal as well as several other places in the country. In foreign countries like the UK, US and Australia, the non-resident Indians and Isckon followers observe the religious festival in a grand way.

However, the Rath Yatra of Ahmedabad stands next to the Puri festival in grandeur and crowd-pulling.

Sarat Kar, the former Speaker of the Orissa Legislative Assembly who is an eminent scholar of Jagannath culture, maintains that the yatra is the greatest of all Hindu festivals because of its ability to unite people in its festivity and for its universal character. "All people, rich and poor, Brahmins or Sudras, equally enjoy the fair and the joy they bring," he says. One will be surprised to know that even Muslims participate."

Muslims of Narayanpur, a village of about a thousand families in the Subarnapur district of Orissa, regularly take part in the festival, from building the chariots to pulling the rath.

Legend has it that once during the Rath Yatra, the chariot of Lord Jagannath did not move as Salabeg, a Muslim devotee.

who has composed hundreds of devotional songs dedicated to the deity, could not reach Puri because of exhaustion on the road.

Dasia Bauri, who belonged the scheduled caste community, was very endeared to Jagannath. The God, it is said, had happily accepted a coconut sent by Dasia in the hands of his friend.

Another legend says, Lord Jagannath was originally a tribal god. He was being worshipped in the name of Nilamadhab by a tribal chief named Biswabasu of Sabar community in a dense forest on the banks of river Mahanandi in present Nayagarh district.

The Orissa king Indradyuma, after being instructed in his dream by the God to bring Him to Puri, deputed his minister Vidyapati to the forest. Vidayapati accomplished the job successfully.

When the tribal chieftain knew that the God had shifted to Puri without his knowledge, he asked the deity why He wanted to desert him. The God consoled him and said He came to Puri for the welfare of the entire mankind.

Jagannath assured Biswabasu that during the nine-day festival, he would give a darshan to him and the people of his community as well as people of all hues and colour.

Since then the Rath Yatra has become a festival of common man.

[quote]

Dalits - Real Issues & Discussion - Guest - 10-05-2006

Wikipedia Talk section on Dalits:-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Dalit

QUOTEI understand that this is an issue that is emotionally sensitive. However, there are many many such issues at Wikipedia (e.g. Rus' (people) and Armenian genocide), and Wikipedia is guided by the principle of NPOV, which is non-negotiable. This is an excerpt from Indo-Aryan migration:

A 2001 examination of male Y-DNA by Indian and American scientists indicated that higher castes are genetically closer to Western Eurasians than are individuals from lower castes, whose genetic profiles are similar to other Asians. According to [Bamshad et al. (2001)], higher caste Telugus have a higher frequency of haplogroup 3 (R1a1) than lower castes. Haplogroup 3 is also characteristic of Eastern Europeans. In the study, Bamshad and his team wrote, "Our results demonstrate that for biparentally inherited autosomal markers, genetic distances between upper, middle, and lower castes are significantly correlated with rank; upper castes are more similar to Europeans than to Asians; and upper castes are significantly more similar to Europeans than are lower castes."
How can this article possibly claim that the foreign origin of the upper castes is debunked? I also strongly react against the article's claim that the most common perception of the spread of the Indo-European languages is racist.--Wiglaf 12:11, 18 September 2005 (UTC)

I don't think that the article is making either of these claims anymore. Further, from the introduction to the same paper that is cited in the Aryan migration article:
Previous genetic studies of Indian castes have failed to achieve a consensus on Indian origins and affinities. Various results have supported closer affinity of Indian castes either with Europeans or with Asians, and several factors underlie this inconsistency. First, erratic or limited sampling of populations has limited inferences about the relationships between caste and continental populations (i.e., Africans, Asians, Europeans). These relationships are further confounded by the wide geographic dispersal of caste populations. Genetic affinities among caste populations are, in part, inversely correlated with the geographic distance between them (Malhotra and Vasulu 1993), and it is likely that affinities between caste and continental populations are also geographically dependent (e.g., different between North and South Indian caste populations). Second, it has been suggested that castes of different rank may have originated from or admixed with different continental groups (Majumder and Mukherjee 1993). Third, the size of caste populations varies widely, and the effects of genetic drift on some small, geographically isolated castes may have been substantial.

The statements in the article at present claim that there isn't a clear biological basis for Dalit/untouchable status. The differences between different Dalit groups- particularly geographically disperate Dalits- are probably as great or greater than the differences between a Dalit group and members of the local Shudra population. This study helps confirm the idea that Indo-Aryan speakers from Europe inserted themselves at the top of the caste system; it doesn't do anything to answer questions about the pre- or post-Aryan origins of the Dalit class, or establish a clear biological basis for determining who is of Dalit origin. I think that the NPOV notice should stand, particularly because of problems with the verification of a lot of the statements on the current status and government attitudes towards Dalits, but I'm curious what you think about hte biological arguments as they currently stand. --Clay Collier 07:36, 16 October 2005 (UTC)

I can assure you that caste system is well and alive in India. It is a part of National conscience and psyche. Inter caste marriages do occur in India but only amongst upper castes. Caste system can be best defined as both racism as well as stringent class system based on birth origin. One's caste will remain the same for all future generations. Indian laws and constitution do outlaw caste system based discrimination (not caste system) If there were no laws oulawing discrimination the government would not be able to function in face of the sheer opposition and allegations of racism within India and internationally. But the bottomline is the unwritten laws and conventions. Caste system gets its backing from the people not from the Indian constitution. Legitimacy of the Caste system is in inverse contrast with Britain where there is no written constitution but still democracy works so well. In Indian there are those unwritten laws of religion and society that establish caste system. Caste system is as much alive among Indian diaspora living in UK, USA, Canada, Fiji, Trinidad etc.
Caste system is bad only for outcasts, not for the ones it grants the privilleges on grounds of birth origin. People, who want to ransack Indian history, ancient texts can find that Caste system has been buttressed by many Indian texts, Bhagvad Githa being one of them (you may buy one from Hare Krishna sect in the West!) Manusmriti is the book that lays the unjust foundations of caste system and also includes several diktats for the outcaste whose sole purpose in life is to serve the ones with higher castes. Interestingly, Indian constitution does not outlaw these much revered and loved texts in India though Germany (a free country) has banned Mein Kemph. But to those who want to go to the intellectual depths may find nothing. Because caste system is nothing intellectual. Faith in it is as real as Muslim terrorists who blow themselves up think they're gonna get 72 virgins in heaven! As for modern dalit political leaders, well, they acquire power only by crying foul about the caste system and thus benefit through it. Dalit masses are as abused, messed around and forlorn as ever. In fact, the very day caste system is removed from the Indian mindset, their (dalit political leaders) hugely successful citadels of 'dalit power' will collapse leaving them jobless and powerless. But that is as impossible

Dalits - Real Issues & Discussion - Bharatvarsh - 10-07-2006

QUOTEDalit accuses in-laws of attempt to convert
Ashis Senapati
[ 5 Oct, 2006 0311hrs ISTTIMES NEWS NETWORK ]

KENDRAPADA: A Dalit woman has lodged an FIR on Wednesday against her husband and father-in-law, alleging that she was tortured by them for refusing to change her religion to Christianity.

Sumitra (19) said her husband and father-in-law opposed her worshipping Hindu gods in the house.

"My husband and father-in-law pressurised me to change my religion. Last week they assaulted me when I again refused to convert, so I left my husband's house," she said.

According to her, an officer of Patakura police station saw her on national highway 5(A) at Haladiagard and admitted her to a short-stay home at Patakura.

After spending a week there, she reached Mahakalapada police station on Wednesday and lodged an FIR against her husband and father-in-law.

"I am ready to die. But I will not change my religion, "Sumitra added. Sumitra's marriage last year was not a happy event. A resident of Arunanagar village, near Kendrapada, she was allegedly raped by Padia Das in June 2005.
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/2091476.cms
What are Hindu org's doing about this, and where is Kanchi Ilaiah the saviour?

This is the kind of strength that all Hindus should show, hopefully the she will be divorced from the b@st@rd and married into a proper Hindu family.

Dalits - Real Issues & Discussion - Guest - 10-14-2006

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/6050408.stm
Low-caste Hindus adopt new faithQUOTEThousands of people have been attending mass ceremonies in India at which hundreds of low-caste Hindus (Dalits) converted to Buddhism and Christianity.
The events in the central city of Nagpur are part of a protest against the injustices of India's caste system.

By converting, Dalits - once known as Untouchables - can escape the prejudice and discrimination they normally face.

The ceremonies mark the 50th anniversary of the adoption of Buddhism by the scholar Bhimrao Ramji Ambedkar.

He was the first prominent Dalit - or Untouchable as they were formerly called - to urge low-caste Indians to embrace Buddhism.

As the chief architect of India's constitution, he wrote anti-discrimination provisions and quota systems into the country's law.

But four-fifths of India's Dalits live in often isolated rural areas, and traditional prejudice has persisted in spite of official laws.

'Cry for dignity'

The Dalits arrived by the truckload at a public park in Nagpur for ceremonies, which began with religious leaders giving fiery speeches against the treatment of lower castes.

Reuters reported that dozens of riot policemen had turned out at the sprawling park.

Albert Lael, of the All India Christian Council, told the BBC that more than 500 people converted to Christianity and more than 1,000 embraced Buddhism. 
The lowest rank in Hindu society, beneath the traditional caste system
Expected to perform the most menial jobs, particularly handling cadavers and human and animal waste.Physical contact with a Dalit was traditionally considered ritually polluting for other castes.Even converts to Christianity and Islam have encountered discrimination from higher-caste converts

He said they came from the states of Chattisgarh, Karnataka, Gujarat, Madhya Pradesh and Mahasrashtra.

Joseph D'Souza, the president of the Dalit Freedom Network and a Christian convert, described the conversions as a "celebratory occasion".

"I think it's important to understand that this is a cry for human dignity, it's a cry for human worth," he told the BBC.

He said that Dalits could seek dignity by converting to Christianity, Jainism or Sikhism as well as Buddhism.

Buddhist convert Dhammachari Manidhamma told the BBC that social equality was impossible within Hinduism.

"Buddha's teaching was for the humanity, and Buddha believed in equality.

"And Hindu religion, Hindu teaching is nothing but inequality.

Laws against conversion

Similar mass conversions are taking place this month in many other parts of India.

Several states governed by the Hindu nationalist party, the BJP, have introduced laws to make such conversions more difficult.

Hatred between castes has sometimes sparked massacres

The states of Rajasthan, Madhya Pradesh and Tamil Nadu have all passed laws restricting conversions.

Gujarat has reclassified Buddhism and Jainism as branches of the Hindu religion, in an attempt to prevent conversions away from Hinduism eroding the BJP's bedrock support.

Hinduism teaches that most humans were created from parts of the body of the divinity Purusha.

According to which body parts they were created from, humans fall into four basic castes which define their social standing, who they can marry, and what jobs they can do.

But Dalits fall outside this system and are traditionally prevented from doing all but the most menial jobs or even drinking from the same water sources as other castes

Dalits - Real Issues & Discussion - Bharatvarsh - 10-15-2006

QUOTE'Won't convert till made PM'
Ramu Bhagwat
[ 15 Oct, 2006 0043hrs ISTTIMES NEWS NETWORK ]

NAGPUR: BSP leader Mayawati on Saturday doused cold water on the mass conversion
rally organised by All-India Christian Council and All-India Confederation of
SC/ST Organisations on World Freedom of Religion Day by marching off and holding
a parallel meeting which attracted huge crowd.

Contrary to expectations of thousands of Dalits embracing either Buddhism on
Christianity, only around 600 people changed their religion.

But for Mayawati, the conversion programme, organised on the occasion of the
golden jubilee of B R Ambedkar's conversion to Buddhism in 1956, would have been a success, a Dalit leader told TOI.

Responding to her critics who had been questioning her refusal to embrace
Buddhism to follow the path of Ambedkar, whose legacy she claims to be carrying
forward, she told a crowd of 40,000, unprecedented in non-election season, that
she would not convert till she achieved the goal of becoming the first Dalit
prime minister of India.

Just four days after her mentor Kanshi Ram's death, she said she would not
rest till she became the first Dalit prime minister.

But while she uttered these words, she was not her usual fiery self. She
fumbled and trembled while justifying her stand to remain a Hindu, in front of
the crowd.

"This question of why I or my mentor, the late Kanshi Ram, did not adopt
Buddhism has been raised time and again," said Mayawati."Kanshi Ramji had said
his first preference would be attaining political power before thinking of
conversion. I am respecting his last wish. So I will not convert till I achieve
political control of the country," she said.

"This question of why I or my mentor, the late Kanshi Ram, did not adopt
Buddhism has been raised time and again," said Mayawati."Kanshi Ramji had said
his first preference would be attaining political power before thinking of
conversion. I am respecting his last wish. So I will not convert till I achieve
political control of the country," she said.

"He had a vision of attaining power at the Centre by the 50th year of Ambedkar's
Deeksha to Buddhism and then change his faith. But, unfortunately that dream has
remained unfulfilled. Now, I have taken a vow to attain his goal. Only after
achieving that will I embrace Buddhism," she added.

Mayawati also justified her plans to associate with higher Hindu castes saying
that whoever deplored the abhorrent caste-system and helped her in empowering
the downtrodden, was welcome into her party."This is the only way to achieve the
mission on which Ambedkar set forth," she declared.

Lakhs of Ambedkar followers had assembled at Deekshabhoomi, on the outskirts of Nagpur, on the occasion. Her rally was held five km away from that spot, at
Indora. She, however, visited the Ambedkar memorial.

Mayawati has been, of late, trying to strike a political balance by trying to
expand her party's hitherto only Dalit, backward class base, to embrace upper
castes and even Brahmins, in the Hindi heartland.

Dalit leaders, mainly those of the Republican Party of India, who have been
watching helplessly as she took over their political space, had been targeting
her and questioning her right to espouse the Dalit-Buddhist cause as she refused
to adopt Buddhism, like her ideal, Ambedkar.

Earlier, there was commotion when rallyists, after burning copies of
anti-conversion laws also tried to set ablaze an effigy of Gujarat CM Narendra
Modi. But, the police intervened to control the situation and rally leaders Udit
Raj and Jospeh D'Souza pacified their volunteers.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/2171934.cms
The usual suspects are behind this (the Church and their stooges).

Dalits - Real Issues & Discussion - Guest - 10-15-2006

QUOTEContrary to expectations of thousands of Dalits embracing either Buddhism on Christianity, only around 600 people changed their religion.

those 600 must be paid for one day event. They have tried same nonsense in Delhi 7-8 years back when they paid Rs50 to illegal Bangladeshi.

Dalits - Real Issues & Discussion - Bharatvarsh - 10-15-2006

More info about the Sumitra case:
QUOTEHindu Dalit woman tortured for not embracing Christianity
Posted on 07 Oct 2006 by HimTimes

Arunanagar (Orissa), Oct.7: A Hindu Dalit woman in Orissa's Kendrapada District has been tortured by her husband after she refused to embrace Christianity.

Twenty-year-old Sumitra Mallick of Arunanagar village married Padia Das in 2005, and now she has filed a case against him and her in- laws, charging all three with grievous assault and torture for her refusal to accept Christianity.

In her complaint, Sumitra says that her husband had also demanded Rupees 50,000 from her father.

"We had a court marriage. I stayed with him happily for five months. After that, he started torturing and forcing me to change my religion. My mother-in-law also said that I have to change my religion. She also beat me up and demanded rupees 50,000 from my father," said Sumitra Mallick.

But Padia rubbished all allegations against his family and alleged that his wife is mentally unsound and has falsely implicated a case against them.

"We have not forced her to convert into religion. She has filed a false case against us," said Padia Das, Sumitra's husband.

Meanwhile, the police had arrested Sumitra's father- in -law for demanding money.

"Sumitra Mallick has lodged FIR with us alleging that she was tortured and forced to convert. We have investigated. We cannot confirm conversion, but found that she was tortured and money was demanded from her. So, we arrested her father-in-law," said S Dalei, Officer- in- Charge, Mohakalapara Police Station.

Padia is said to have allegedly raped Sumitra and was arrested by the police in June 2005. To escape punishment, he married her in the presence of police in a court. After which, he was granted bail. (ANI)

http://www.himtimes.com/india/india.php?su...t_from=&ucat=3&

Dalits - Real Issues & Discussion - Guest - 10-15-2006

QUOTE(Mudy @ Oct 14 2006, 05:25 PM)<div class='quotetop'>QUOTEContrary to expectations of thousands of Dalits embracing either Buddhism on Christianity, only around 600 people changed their religion.

those 600 must be paid for one day event. They have tried same nonsense in Delhi 7-8 years back when they paid Rs50 to illegal Bangladeshi.
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This is like congressi election rallies in my area. Everybody used to go to these, have snacks, elders would get booze, use free auto-rickshaw rides and then go and vote BJP.. <!--emo& Big Grin

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