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What DNA Says About Aryan Invasion Theory -2 - Printable Version +- Forums (http://india-forum.com) +-- Forum: Indian History & Culture (http://india-forum.com/forumdisplay.php?fid=3) +--- Forum: Indian History (http://india-forum.com/forumdisplay.php?fid=10) +--- Thread: What DNA Says About Aryan Invasion Theory -2 (/showthread.php?tid=539) |
What DNA Says About Aryan Invasion Theory -2 - HareKrishna - 01-03-2010 [quote name='Niki' date='11 December 2009 - 05:30 AM' timestamp='1260489147' post='102885'] Is this for real? Sounds like unadulterated rubbish. Who came up with this list? It has more holes than material [/quote] I did came whit this list and reflect my personal opinions. My theory is that tropicals are mostly religious fanatics or to say different,very religious people.Thats could be acceptable if they didn't convert to biblical terrorist religions. Bible belt is a minority even in US(30%) and US is the most religious white country.While tropicals are over 90% Bible belt type of guys. Civilization appear among tropical yes,but there was an agricultural civilization not an industrial one.Industrial civilization is clearly ruled by temperats(europeans,east-asians). The cold climate made it harsh to adapt tropical plants like cereals. Even so ,civilisation did exist in Europe(just to name monolith constructions which are usually older then asian ones) .Tropical civilisation was a palace culture ,meaning that tropical people were forced to please their brutal rulers whit art,harems,crafts. While pyramids may have think that they mean culture ,think that common egyptians weren't very happy to cary heavy stones in order to please the absolute king(pharaoh).Independent by nature,europeans didn't accept to be bullied by their rulers to do such constructions.For this reason ancient europeans may look barbarians. In conclusion ,religios fanaticism,especially biblical one ,is today a mostly tropical phenomena. We see today Japan,China,Russia,Europe mostly whit non-dogmatic,not very religious people and for that reason free from fanaticism(mostly). http://hypnosis.home.netcom.com/iq_vs_religiosity.htm What DNA Says About Aryan Invasion Theory -2 - Guest - 01-07-2010 [quote name='HareKrishna' date='03 January 2010 - 10:43 AM' timestamp='1262529345' post='103288'] While pyramids may have think that they mean culture ,think that common egyptians weren't very happy to cary heavy stones in order to please the absolute king(pharaoh).Independent by nature,europeans didn't accept to be bullied by their rulers to do such constructions.For this reason ancient europeans may look barbarians. [/quote] While carrying heavy stones for Pharoah probably meant employment for the poor Egyptian who could feed himself and his family, the average European was forced to resort to cannibalism and/or die during Cursades in name of God, King and Pope - something more recent than ancient Egyptians. Also Pharaoh's didn't go about disrespecting women unlike European Lords who legalized 'Prima Nocta' (First Night) where they could have their way. Separate wheat from chaff before buying into euro-crap. Futhermore, the link you have posted on religiosity and IQ is absolutely meaningless since it's results are derived from two separate studies or sample. What DNA Says About Aryan Invasion Theory -2 - kchandra - 01-17-2010 [quote name='HareKrishna' date='03 January 2010 - 08:13 PM' timestamp='1262529345' post='103288'] I did came whit this list and reflect my personal opinions. My theory is that tropicals are mostly religious fanatics or to say different,very religious people.Thats could be acceptable if they didn't convert to biblical terrorist religions. Bible belt is a minority even in US(30%) and US is the most religious white country.While tropicals are over 90% Bible belt type of guys. Civilization appear among tropical yes,but there was an agricultural civilization not an industrial one.Industrial civilization is clearly ruled by temperats(europeans,east-asians). The cold climate made it harsh to adapt tropical plants like cereals. Even so ,civilisation did exist in Europe(just to name monolith constructions which are usually older then asian ones) .Tropical civilisation was a palace culture ,meaning that tropical people were forced to please their brutal rulers whit art,harems,crafts. While pyramids may have think that they mean culture ,think that common egyptians weren't very happy to cary heavy stones in order to please the absolute king(pharaoh).Independent by nature,europeans didn't accept to be bullied by their rulers to do such constructions.For this reason ancient europeans may look barbarians. In conclusion ,religios fanaticism,especially biblical one ,is today a mostly tropical phenomena. We see today Japan,China,Russia,Europe mostly whit non-dogmatic,not very religious people and for that reason free from fanaticism(mostly). http://hypnosis.home.netcom.com/iq_vs_religiosity.htm [/quote] I am not sure this is true. Probably these ideas are first peddled by Euro centric sociologists. Europe , Japan and china all had all types of excesses, including cannibalism, religious fanaticism, poverty, crime. You name it. Have you heard of crusades, where even the English travelled all the way to Jerusalem. Have you heard of poverty during the 1700's and 1800s in europe. Europe was filthy in the middle ages, that is why plague destroyed most of their lower class population. European Kings were as despotic as any other. European church was as brutal as Islam or any other religion, remember the Spanish inquisition, the massacre of Jews etc. Japan was brutally poor in the 1700's ruled by their emperor. If you think, modern Europeans are reformists, then what is capitalism, where a large majority toils to produce riches for a few rich oligarch's ( read MNC's ). The Europe we see is a finished product, that has evolved and become very prosperous and more orderly. Other countries need time to catch up. I think only an ignorant mind can come up with such sweeping generalisations. - Regds, Krishna What DNA Says About Aryan Invasion Theory -2 - G.Subramaniam - 01-20-2010 R1b, west european Y haplogroup has been dated to 10k years ago and originated in Iran / Turkey border R1A entered Europe 10k years ago along north shore of caspian sea, following retreating glaciers whereas R1B followed the south shore of caspian sea A Predominantly Neolithic Origin for European Paternal Lineages: The relative contributions to modern European populations of Paleolithic hunter-gatherers and Neolithic farmers from the Near East have been intensely debated. Haplogroup R1b1b2 (R-M269) is the commonest European Y-chromosomal lineage, increasing in frequency from east to west, and carried by 110 million European men. Previous studies suggested a Paleolithic origin, but here we show that the geographical distribution of its microsatellite diversity is best explained by spread from a single source in the Near East via Anatolia during the Neolithic. Taken with evidence on the origins of other haplogroups, this indicates that most European Y chromosomes originate in the Neolithic expansion. What DNA Says About Aryan Invasion Theory -2 - dhu - 01-20-2010 It is possible that R1b started in C Asia, went o'er the 'ol Caspian, and then, blocked by the climactic ice, dipped back down into the caucasus and from there into asia minor and onwards to europe. Maybe a few trudged along hugging the northern coast of the Black Sea as well. Yeah I know about C Asia but I am talking realistically here (discounting all herrenvolk fantasies). By the time that R1a expanded there was no ice block and it completely overwhelmed E Europe. Later, the Hatti followed the transcaucasus route into Asia Minor, while the Mittani, Sindoi, Kassites, and the Greco-Persians took a more direct ME route, along with their greekoid slaves. It is also possible that the inland seas do not present any effective challenges to migration. What DNA Says About Aryan Invasion Theory -2 - kchandra - 01-20-2010 [quote name='dhu' date='20 January 2010 - 08:40 AM' timestamp='1263956534' post='103612'] It is possible that R1b started in C Asia, went o'er the 'ol Caspian, and then, blocked by the climactic ice, dipped back down into the caucasus and from there into asia minor and onwards to europe. Maybe a few trudged along hugging the northern coast of the Black Sea as well. Yeah I know about C Asia but I am talking realistically here (discounting all herrenvolk fantasies). By the time that R1a expanded there was no ice block and it completely overwhelmed E Europe. Later, the Hatti followed the transcaucasus route into Asia Minor, while the Mittani, Sindoi, Kassites, and the Greco-Persians took a more direct ME route, along with their greekoid slaves. It is also possible that the inland seas do not present any effective challenges to migration. [/quote] R1b must have originated a little earlier than R1a, and moving along Caspian Sea north and then west appears plausible, but equally likely is that R1b moved west before the last ice age, so did not really have to move north of Caspian sea, just migrated west and populated wester and northen Europe, but later they were pushed back to ice age refuges in Iberia and Balkans. And then populating entire Northen and Western Europe and part of Central Europe as well, which was very thinly populated at that time. R1a probably closely behind R1b, ( and assuming it originated in south central asia ) diffused/radiated across , towards central India, north towards caspian sea, and west towards Iran ( only eastern part of Iran ) and perhaps east towards east central asia. Again all this just prior to the last ice age ( approximately 18k to 20 K years ). Once ice age started and peaked, again R1a was pushed to pockets/refuges around Caspian Sea, and of course parts of Iran and India. Once Ice age retreated, the R1a near Caspian sea/ Iran area expanded to Eastern Europe, Large parts of Central Asia and perhaps a little bit to Northern India, ( though i am not fully convinced of large scale migration to India ). Post glacial, R1a expansion to Eastern Europe was easy, because again it was not populated much. One difference between population of R1b across western Europe and R1a across Easter Europe was the former was mostly hunter gatherers and neolithic farmers, whereas the latter was a pastoral/nomadic steppe group with horses and with bronze tools. This probably allowed R1a in Eastern Europe to easily and entirely change the language of Entire Europe into IE language, but not large scale genetic replacement( from the original r1b language, perhaps Basque like language ) as we see large percentages of R1b in Spain, Portugal and France and even Ireland i think. Once sees a gradual reduction in the percentage of R1a as we across west from easter Europe to the shores of France. And it was also possible, that R1a once existed across vast expanses of Central Asia all the way reaching upto Western China, especially right after the last ice age ended ( Anyone familiar with the caucasian Mummies found in western China? ). But i guess, the later westward expansion of Altaic speaking Turkic/Mongol tribes ( no doubt aided by their new found tools and horses, and harsh climatic conditions ) wiped out all this r1a in that region. ( this may explain the shape of R1a distritbution in the map, there are two areas of high concentrations one in N India and another in Eastern Europe, the in between region is filled with Turkic groups. What DNA Says About Aryan Invasion Theory -2 - kchandra - 01-20-2010 Though I do think, the horse was native to the steppe region and perhaps was domesticated there by R1a groups, the acquisition of bronze tools, and invention of wheel, and perhaps even basics of agriculture must have probably originated much south and travelled north from the North India/Afghanistan ( around Mehergarh ) region to the steppe R1a groups through cultural diffustion and perhaps trade, or even two way travel. The Mehergarh settlements originated agriculture, perhaps even invented bronze, and dependancy on milk diet. And the later day Indus valley civilisation, which was even more advanced, with wheeled carts driven by Ox probably transmitted some of their technological advancements to the Steppe groups to their north. ( i refuse to believe that they ( indus valley ) suddenly collapsed due to invading 'groups' ) ( I do know that existing literature says first wheel appeared in Poland around 3500 BC, but i am a little skeptical about this ) Post glacial R1a populations across the steppes around Caspian Sea, probably were very primitive, and entirely depended on hunted animal meat and caves for survival. And all their Chariots, bronze technology/weapons, and a few other aspects like change to a milk based diet, all most likely came to them from the groups south , that is in the Iran/Afghanistan/North Indian regions, who were also predominantly R1a I think ( atleast at that time period ) And these advances, definitely, gave them an edge, when they went west, and conquered western europe, ( atleast culturally ). And i am sure many of the steppe groups also spread south later, and invaded/diffused , due to their war like culture, but i doubt, it was anything like the colonization of superior groups with weapons over the primitive natives ( as described by the so called AIT ) The above theory is my two cents worth, for all the holes in it! <img src='http://www.india-forum.com/forums/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=' ![]() What DNA Says About Aryan Invasion Theory -2 - HareKrishna - 01-23-2010 [quote name='Krishna' date='20 January 2010 - 02:47 PM' timestamp='1263978565' post='103623'] And it was also possible, that R1a once existed across vast expanses of Central Asia all the way reaching upto Western China, especially right after the last ice age ended ( Anyone familiar with the caucasian Mummies found in western China? ). But i guess, the later westward expansion of Altaic speaking Turkic/Mongol tribes ( no doubt aided by their new found tools and horses, and harsh climatic conditions ) wiped out all this r1a in that region. ( this may explain the shape of R1a distritbution in the map, there are two areas of high concentrations one in N India and another in Eastern Europe, the in between region is filled with Turkic groups. [/quote] Yep,between 4 and 10 century ,the guys whit vertical eyes(turks) wipe out the guys whit blue eyes(Scythians) from Central Asia. What DNA Says About Aryan Invasion Theory -2 - HareKrishna - 01-23-2010 [quote name='Krishna' date='17 January 2010 - 12:47 AM' timestamp='1263668951' post='103541'] --Trim-- [/quote] in the ancient age everybody was violent(includind europeans and east-asians) because the means of living was very few,agriculture only lead to poverty which lead to a culture of violence. But in industrial age ,the technology can provide an least the basics for each one which lead to much less violence. But for industry and technology you need a little more iq something that temperats(europeans and east-asians) have ;they are 20-30% smarter then tropicals. Tropicals cant handle technology and this lead to agricultural poverty ,which lead to a culture of violence. PS - i didnt mention the importance of ideological factor ;for exemple a jain would not become violent even he is poor. What DNA Says About Aryan Invasion Theory -2 - Guest - 01-24-2010 [quote name='HareKrishna' date='23 January 2010 - 08:37 AM' timestamp='1264249770' post='103662'] But for industry and technology you need a little more iq something that temperats(europeans and east-asians) have ;they are 20-30% smarter then tropicals. [/quote] Any data to back this up? What DNA Says About Aryan Invasion Theory -2 - acharya - 01-26-2010 [quote name='HareKrishna' date='23 January 2010 - 06:07 PM' timestamp='1264249770' post='103662'] [size="5"]Tropicals cant handle technology[/size] and this lead to agricultural poverty ,which lead to a culture of violence. [/quote] This is statement which does not have data to back it up What DNA Says About Aryan Invasion Theory -2 - G.Subramaniam - 01-26-2010 [quote name='Viren' date='24 January 2010 - 06:36 PM' timestamp='1264337927' post='103673'] Any data to back this up? [/quote] Mongols have an IQ of 80 and they live in colder climate than Han My counter-example is Mauritius, where despite the drag of 15% muslim population and 30% Black population the remaining 50% Hindu population has pulled up the economy to a decent level What DNA Says About Aryan Invasion Theory -2 - acharya - 01-27-2010 [quote name='HareKrishna' date='26 January 2010 - 02:43 PM' timestamp='1264496733' post='103704'] If Mauritius can, why India and Nepal cant?Maybe because Mauritius has a more open economy?Maybe because the traditional local culture is for some reason favorable to economic growth. [/quote] Indian economy has been under pressure first due to British during the 200 years rule and then socialist BS for the last 60 years. Only now the free spirit of the economy is coming out after 300 years. Most of the industrial age happened during this period. How can you compare these regions. What DNA Says About Aryan Invasion Theory -2 - Guest - 01-27-2010 HK: Mafia or organized crime of all shades and colors exists in US. Including Japanese, Chinese too. Since when's their IQ been low? And Black-mafia?? <img src='http://www.india-forum.com/forums/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/laugh.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':lol:' /> And Sri Lanka's example of technically advanced economy which is non-tropical???? Advice to desi techies: move south towards equator to Lanka for better jobs and living and don't forget to pack your sweaters and mittens too? Page UN and have India delisted from G-8 and replace with Lanka. Acharaya or any other mod: This page needs some pruning and trimming. BS has gone for too long. What DNA Says About Aryan Invasion Theory -2 - acharya - 01-27-2010 [quote name='HareKrishna' date='27 January 2010 - 09:03 PM' timestamp='1264605951' post='103735'] There is no need for trimming ,except maybe the last 3 messages .I just point out the genetic differences between different climate zones.It have a remotely connection whit the DNA part of this topic. [/quote] No real empirical connections between the DNA and climate zones. No more discussion on this What DNA Says About Aryan Invasion Theory -2 - kchandra - 01-28-2010 [quote name='acharya' date='27 January 2010 - 10:41 PM' timestamp='1264611803' post='103737'] No real empirical connections between the DNA and climate zones. No more discussion on this [/quote] Totally agree that there is not much of an empirical evidence between DNA and climatic zones. Some glaring contradictions: - Sri Lanka has a higher per capita GDP than most of the 'sthan' coutries like Turkmenistan , Uzbekistan and even Georgia but Sri Lanka IQ is lower - India has almost same GDP as Vietnam, yet, Vietnam's IQ is much higher than India's. Having said this, i would say, the opposite that there is no correlation between races and IQ, is also not conclusively proveable. When we look at Africa and Europe, the difference is glaring. Can anyone explain why Sri Lanka is richer than all African countries which have the same latitude ( like Sudan, Ethiopia, Nigeria etc ) . But, that is a different topic. Also , the average IQ's of various countries n( in it is present form ) itself is suspect and is not accurate. Perhaps , after when the IQ values of various countries have been measured accurately, can a meaningful comparision between countries be made. Anyway, this topic is about DNA and Aryan migration theory, we are going off topic, into IQ. What DNA Says About Aryan Invasion Theory -2 - acharya - 02-05-2010 an interesting scientific study of Indian ethnic and "caste" origins.Though there will be considerable controversy about northies being "higher" and southies being "lower",from the findings,the sheer diversity of India's population is what is truly exciting and what must be preserved in our nation's interests. Quote:Indiaââ¬â¢s caste system descended from two tribes ââ¬Ënot colonialismââ¬â¢ What DNA Says About Aryan Invasion Theory -2 - dhu - 02-06-2010 I can't understand some of these fellows. Even though they clearly see some of the pieces, their resistance to an Indian origin is epic and unforgiving. One fellow is trying to prove that Sarasvati Nadi has nonglacial origin which somehow validates AIT. Here is another fellow who clearly sees the genetic evidence as well as kentum transformation into satem in Greater India yet predictably relies on backmigration to usher in the Aryans. No distinction is drawn between the formative and the derivative and the formative never has cultural significance. Minor eddies are mistaken for a cyclone and a tea cup for an ocean. Pure Madness. Quote:I had summarized a theory here http://[..] from Madhya-Asia ki Itihas, Vol 1, pgs57-73 What DNA Says About Aryan Invasion Theory -2 - Guest - 02-07-2010 Playing the devil's advocate (I should not be really, because I know nothing about genetics), if we consider as per Oppenheimer that humans from S.Asia were the ones that populated Europe; how does one counter an argument that "Isn't it still possible that humans from Central Asia migrated down to South Asia?" That is after they acknowledge the first migration from India to Europe; on what basis can we refute any claim that there was not one more stream of migration from C.Asia to S.Asia - ie. Aryans coming into India? What DNA Says About Aryan Invasion Theory -2 - dhu - 02-07-2010 Any assertion can be made. It is proof, or at least a plausability argument, which needs to be cited. |