The Great Indian Political Debate - 2

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The Great Indian Political Debate - 2 - Guest - 08-13-2005

Congress after Pioneer related news item now moved to Congress an undemocratic... thread.

The Great Indian Political Debate - 2 - acharya - 08-13-2005

`Wooing Muslims politically motivated'
Staff Reporter
Bharatiya Janata Party to move High Court if necessary

# `Major parties in the State are committing historical blunders'
# BJP pleads to Congress and TDP leaders not to resort to mean politics
# The party to strive to bring together all BCs and launch a fight
# The party to fight it alone in municipal elections

WARANGAL: Congress and Telugu Desam Party (TDP) leaders are trying to woo Muslims in the name of reservations only for their political gains, said Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP) MLA G. Kishan Reddy.

Mr. Reddy has said both the Congress and the TDP are committing `historical blunders' by promising reservation for Muslims which will only divide the society on the basis of religion. "Muslims are recognised as BCs and it only will dilute reservations for BCs," he said.

The BJP has been striving to bring together all BCs and launch a fight against reservations for Muslims. The party will also move the High Court, if needed.

Provisions misused

Mr. Reddy pointed out at a press conference here on Friday that already Muslims were being given reservation in education and employment. However, certain elements within the Government and outside were misusing the provisions. The case of Shadan College vouches for the fact. "The BJP urges the Congress and TDP leaders not to resort to mean politics for their selfish goals. We also appeal to people to realise the true colours of political leaders in favour of reservation for Muslims," the BJP leader said.

SCs' categorisation

On the categorisation of SCs, Mr. Kishan Reddy said the Congress party, which was in the Opposition when the resolution was passed in favour of categorisation, lacked the commitment. "The Government was least bothered about making any arrangements for Ministers who visited New Delhi. The Ministers were supposed to meet the Central Ministers and the press on the issue. Sadly, they did not achieve anything as the State Government itself lacked sincerity," he pointed out.

Referring to the forthcoming municipal elections, the BJP leader said party would fight the election alone.

The Great Indian Political Debate - 2 - Guest - 08-13-2005

THE 'TOLERANT' HINDU AS THE 'VILLAGE IDIOT'.

The Great Indian Political Debate - 2 - Guest - 08-13-2005

Wrong thread - In HHR thread now. Thanks Rajesh,,

The Great Indian Political Debate - 2 - Guest - 08-13-2005

<img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/argue.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='argue.gif' />
My comments submitted in response to the article giving the taste of his own medicine to author : a tlerant Hindu
Capt M Kumar , 8/13/2005 9:18:16 PM
Subject - Tolerant Hindu as 'Village Naive'
In fact, I will go further and call the author 'idiot' who has used the word idiot for 'village'. But for that villager, we would have been still under the foreign yolk of Britishers. It was Gandhi ji who collected the villagers to throw out foreign rulers. I will sum up with the great words of Gandhi ji : Hai apna desh kahan Vo basa hamare gaon mein arthat 'India lives in it's villages'.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Manmohan Kumar 8/13/2005 8:52:33 PM
Subject - Tolerant Hindu as 'Village Idiot'
Your article is in good faith but tolerant Hindu will not tolerate your title; so, if possible, please change it to 'village naive'. Thanks

The Great Indian Political Debate - 2 - Guest - 08-17-2005

QUOTEIn majority Hindu India, GOI gives a subsidy of total $98,000 to Hindus for
pilgrimage for three years (2002, 2003 & 2004) whereas the Muslims are given
$41 million Haj subsidy per year. This information is from GOI. What a
wonderful concept of Indian secularism?Â Here is the Press Release.
Press Release

Press Information Bureau of India
August 10, 2005
www.pib.nic.in

DELHI, INDIA, August 10, 2005: The Minister of State for External Affairs, Shri
E. Ahmed informed the Lok Sabha about the details of subsidy and other
facilities which are being provided by Union Government, at present, for
pilgrims visiting various religious shrines abroad. In summary, for the Hindu
Kailash Mansarovar pilgrimage, the government pays pays US$73 for each pilgrim
to Kumaon Mandal Vikas Nigam (KMVN) for arrangements made by KMVN for the
Yatra. In addition, during the course of the Yatra, facilities provided by the
Government to the pilgrims include free medical assistance, security and escort
cover by the Indo-Tibetan Border Police (ITBP) till the Lipulekh Pass on the
Indian side, communication links with China, and provision of satellite phone
to the Liaison Officer for each batch of pilgrims for use during emergency
throughout the Yatra. A Liaison Officer is attached by the Government with each
batch of pilgrims, who is responsible for their general welfare. It is the
Government's endeavour to improve and upgrade facilities for the pilgrims going
on the Yatra on a continuing basis. During the last three years (2002, 2003 &
2004), 1,322 pilgrims undertook Kailash Mansarovar Yatra, and an amount of
approximately $98,000 was paid to the Kumaon Mandal Vikas Nigam (KMVN) for
making the required arrangements for the Yatra.

The amount of subsidy provided by the Government to Haj pilgrims who perform Haj to Mecca in Saudia Arabia through the Haj Committee of India. In 2005 was $41 million, with similar amounts also spent in 2003 and 2004. The other facilities provided by the Government to the Haj pilgrims include setting up of hospitals and dispensaries in Saudi Arabia, supply of medicines, deputation of medical, para-medical and administrative staff. The Consulate General of India in Jeddah also renders assistance in making various logistical arrangements for the
pilgrims performing Haj through the Haj Committee of India. The above
information was given by the Minister in reply to a question by Kunwar
Manvendra Singh.

(HPI adds: This particular report does not say how many Haj
pilgrims were subsidized in 2005, however in 2002, according to one web report,
77,000 Haj pilgrims were subsidized.)

The Great Indian Political Debate - 2 - Guest - 08-27-2005

QUOTE link

Through a August 05 judgment, the Supreme Court held that Jains are not
a minority. Interestingly a Economic Times editorial criticised the
Supreme Court for its judgment!

Judgment Highlights

a.. According to a 11 judges bench speaking through CJ Kripal "for
the State Government to decide as to whether the Jain community should be
treated as a minority community in their respective states after taking
into account their circumstances/conditions in that state". It is also
informed that the State Governments of Chhatisgarh, Maharashtra, Madhya
Pradesh, Uttar Pradesh and Uttaranchal have already notified Jains as
'minority' in accordance with the provisions of the respective State
Minority Commissions Act.

b.. The expression 'minority' has been used in Articles 29 and 30 of
the Constitution but it has nowhere been defined. Minority as
understood from constitutional scheme signifies an identifiable group of people
or community who were seen as deserving protection from likely
deprivation of their religious, cultural and educational rights by other
communities who happen to be in majority and likely to gain political power
in a democratic form of Government based on election.

c.. The National Minorities Commission does not have the power to
define who is a Minority.

d.. After the verdict in the eleven judges' Bench inÂ TMA Pai
Foundation case (supra), the legal position stands clarified that henceforth
the unit for determining status of both linguistic and religious
minorities would be 'state'.

e.. The so-called minority communities like Sikhs and Jains were not
treated as national minorities at the time of framing the Constitution
unlike Muslims, Christians. Sikhs and Jains, in fact, have throughout
been treated as part of the wider Hindu community, which has different
sects, sub-sects, faiths, modes of worship and religious philosophies.

f.. The word 'Hindu' conveys the image of diverse groups of
communities living in India Thus, 'Hinduism' can be called a general religion
and common faith of India whereas 'Jainism' is a special religion formed
on the basis of quintessence of Hindu religion.

g.. Commissions set up for minorities have to direct their activities
to maintain integrity and unity of India by gradually eliminating the
minority and majority classes.

h.. In a caste-ridden Indian society, no section or distinct group of
people can claim to be in majority. All are minorities amongst Hindus.

i.. Our concept of secularism, to put it in a nutshell, is that
'state' will have no religion. The states will treat all religions and
religious groups equally and with equal respect without in any manner
interfering with their individual rights of religion, faith and worship.
Disagree. Then why must State governments control Hindu temples? Why
must temple contributions become part of the State Treasury? Why must not
Hindus get subsidy for going to Char Dham / Kailash Mansrovar like
Muslims, ie if all religions are equal?Â

Minority or not and constitutional benefits thereon has become a victim
of vote bank politics. The Akali Dal government of Parkash Singh Badal
declared Sikhs to be a minority in Punjab although Sikhs are a majority
in that state and have a fellow Sikh as Chief Minister. Since the
Supreme Court has held 'State' to be the unit for deciding whether a
community is a Minority or not, wonder whether Hindus have been declared a
Minority in the states of Jammu & Kashmir, Mizoram, Nagaland, Punjab and
so on

The Great Indian Political Debate - 2 - Guest - 08-27-2005

<img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/rocker.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='rocker.gif' />

Unless and until we unite to give DALITS and tsunami victims the top priority in our development efforts, we will be
taken in poor light.

The movie hero VIVEK OBEROI did a lot in TN for tsunami victims
but was prevented from proceeding by the christians and liquor
barons. Those others like Bollywood khans via their DVDs/CDs are grabbing lot of Hindu money are using it for nefarious activities most probably. Rule of law being weak, social order is getting more threatened and this is what we
saw when a woman jumped off the train fearing a bag had bomb in it.

It is often the women and children that affected the most.

As horrific as the uncovered plight of the rape victims of the church abuse is, it is equally horrendous to see all such rapes lying buried in India, the widening gap between the rich and poor; between the exploited and the exploiting. It is to easy to be upset and enraged over how the larger civil society is being
subjugated as if it is still under colonial rule."

Indians are generally too embarrassed to reveal if their minors are subject to sexual abuse; their minors might be more embarrassed.

On the matter of neo-colonialism of the Congress party, I am surprised why there is no International outcry. Both rule by majority - i.e. DEMOCRACY -
and secularism - non-interference by church and mosques - have been routinely and systematically violated. That temples don't generally interfere in politics is never mentioned. Hence, it is to the credit of the native culture that they are inherently SECULAR. In addition, they, as tax-payers, have been paying for the HAJ pilgrims too, year after year. What kind of SECULARISM is this? While the temples are governed by the Goverment, the mosques and the churches are not. While the Christian schools get tax-payers' money, they often violate the laws in forcing non-christian children to pay excessive fees and not teaching the local vernacular languages but teaching the Bible instead. Hence, you see violation at every turn.

Who is to bell the cat? That society oppressed for hundreds of years continues to be oppressed unlike the Iraqi Shiites and Kurds who have gotten some degree of autonomy/self-rule now after minority brutality that continues in India. Do write to all your friends to put an end to this atrocity.

To anyone who says, India is a Democracy, I'd say, "You couldn't be more wrong" and I'd add there is no rule of law either, there being no CHILD PROTECTION LAW tough enough to safeguard the minors from church abuse that is rampant the world over.

I found in Latin America, many Pakistanis and Chinese who I was told are illegal migrants w/o any papers in places like Equador, parts of Central America.

I wondered why I did not find any Indians, expecting the
so-called persecuted folks like the muslims and christians. There
were none.

I am tempted to conclude that it is the Hindus and Dalits that
are persecuted and not any of the others that claim persecution.

One other thing, I found was that an outfit called "Ekal
Vidyalaya" is serving the Indian tribals and the ones in Gujarat
are not presumably served, but the muslims and christians are.
Again, I tend to draw this inference that these latter segments
grab what is due to the really disadvantaged, namely the tribals
and the Dalits.

One larger question remains unanswered, why are the magazines
like 'Manushi', not taking up the cause of the weaker sections -
like the women and girls raped in church abuse cases, islamist
assault cases...etc?

I think the impact on Harijans and Tribals is far more critical than one can ever imagine. Consider the impact in terms of the filling of job positions in
Government. If there are X number of openings and the crypto tribals - read Christians - of the North east take all the X openings, what is left for the tribals of Gujarat? Nothing, nada zilch, sadly.

In fact, the news analysis shows that the tribals involved in the post-Godhra's situation - citizen warriors - read first responders - were the poorest of the poor
tribals who have been exploited for many centuries by moslty *muslim* money lenders who charge back breaking rates.

I find one can safely conclude that unlike the spiritual souls most Hindus are, minority fascists of India want endlessly more and more. Worse still, they are becoming ever more powerful, with excessive rights and devastating political clout, as we all saw in Goa, Bihar..etc in spite of appeal to the communal President who got enthroned by the so-called communalists.

I can't imagine life getting any better soon given the situation on the
ground in India right now. It is a luxury for only the minority, as Dr Ambedkar gauged several decades ago.

To conclude, the situation in India is getting grave and critical
and nothing is being done about it. BOYCOTT FOR SOCIAL JUSTICE!
Regards,

The Great Indian Political Debate - 2 - Guest - 08-29-2005

Ramananda Sengupta: Who needs secularism?
Arvind Lavakare : The definition of 'secular'
Rajeev Srinivasan :Perverting secularism

The Great Indian Political Debate - 2 - acharya - 09-04-2005

Do not criticise elected government, minorities told
http://www.hindu.com/2005/09/04/stories/2005090402970700.htm

Special Correspondent

It will be preposterous to question the sincerity of the Government: NCM chief

JAIPUR: The Chairman of the National Commission for Minorities, Tarlochan Singh, on Saturday called upon the minority communities to discard the habit of criticising democratically elected governments with constant complaints of "perceived discrimination.'' He said the fear psychosis created among the minorities would harm them in the long run.

Mr. Singh was interacting with reporters during his visit to attend a function of the Sikh Sangat here. [/size]He said minorities had no right to denounce the elected governments as the latter had the people's mandate in their favour. "Holding the Government or the ruling party responsible for communalism in the society is improper,'' he said.[/size]

Mr. Singh â who is also a Rajya Sabha MP â pointed out that an elected government was answerable to the people at large irrespective of who voted for it and a Chief Minister was duty-bound to fulfil the aspirations of the entire population of the State. It would be preposterous to question the sincerity of the Government, he said.

The Minorities Commission chief said he had led a delegation of Muslims that met the Gujarat Chief Minister, Narendra Modi, in the aftermath of violence in 2002, when Muslims had announced boycott of the Bharatiya Janata Party-led Government. The grievances of the community were settled in a "congenial atmosphere'' with his intervention.

On the observations of the Prime Minister's high-level committee that visited Rajasthan recently to study the socio-economic and educational status of Muslims, Mr. Singh said he did not find any atmosphere of fear, distrust or terror among Muslims in the State.

The Great Indian Political Debate - 2 - Guest - 09-14-2005

Pioneer
QUOTEHistory may be freedom 
Asheesh Shah
In 326 BC, Alexander, the young Macedonian king, challenged Porus and the Ambhi kingdoms across the Beas in Northwest India. Several weak Indian kings supported Alexander in his battle against valiant Porus, thus ensuring the latter's defeat.

However, with the death of Alexander in the spring of 323 BC in Babylon, Chandragupta Maurya, the king of Pataliputra, not only won back the kingdoms which were taken away by Alexander by defeating one of his generals, Seleucus Nicator, but also married the latter's daughter as a strategic decision to consolidate his position in the region. Chandragupta thus became an exemplar of Indian imperialism.

This period was followed by the reign of smaller but powerful kingdoms, engaged in fratricidal wars. It was only with the accession of Chandragupta to the throne in 320 AD, which brought India's noble magnificence to the forefront. The Guptas restored the cultural heritage and values of Hindus that allowed geniuses like Kalidas, Varahamihir, and Aryabhatt, among others, to prosper and accomplish their works.

The post-Gupta period, once again, divided the country in smaller regimes ridden with internal strife. With the invasion of Mohammed Ghazni (1007 AD), the vulnerability of the country to external forces was exposed. The suffering of Hindus at the hands of Ghazni and the subsequent destruction of temples resulted in the gradual deterioration of Indian culture, which was also noted by Al Beruni in his famous book, Tahqiq Ma-lil-Hind.

Ghazni was followed by many other invaders from the Afghan, Turkish and Mongol regions. The depravity of these regimes which indulged in largescale plunder and suppression of Hindus, forced many to convert to Islam. Then came Babar who defeated Ibrahim Lodi at the famous battle of Panipat (April 1526), and established the Mughal Empire in India. With the death of Aurangzeb in 1707, the Mughals lost their hold on the country. The biased approach of foreign rulers in favour of their religious beliefs and antipathy towards Hinduism caused many historians to refer to the period between 1000-1700 as the "dark ages" of the country.

The path to British colonial rule was cleared with the formation of the East India Company on December 31, 1600. Later, large parts of the country merged with the British Crown. The British were instrumental in bringing many new ideas to the country, giving it the services, roads, postal services, and railways.

However, by muzzling popular sentiments, they too forced slavish tendencies on Indians. As a result, pseudo-secularist intellectuals - in the best of institutions, academia, government, media, and politics - appeared, who had no faith in the country's roots, whether cultural, ethical or moral. Their only recourse was and continues to be Western ideas and symbols. Marxism is a good example of their servile mindset. The revolt against the British by Mangal Pandey partially represented the seething anger among Hindus.

The struggle for India's independence bought to fore leaders who were not part of this intellectual bankruptcy. However, the infighting among Indians once again proved to be their nemesis - ultimately leading to the division of the country and formation of Pakistan.

In the post-independence era, during 50 years of Congress's rule, many a spineless personalities became our national leaders. Servile attitude, sycophancy and crass opportunism laced with corruption took over merit. In the post-Indira Gandhi period, regional satraps flourished at the cost of national interest, thus paving the way for caste, creed, money and muscle based politics.

However, for once when it appeared that this downtrend will come to a halt with the installation of the BJP-led NDA regime at the Centre, the opportunity was wasted by some unfortunate events and lack of foresight. With the open war between the Sangh parivar and the BJP becoming a matter of public trivia, the state of affairs has reached its nadir - much to the dismay of the members and followers of the Sangh parivar. It will be an exercise in futility to pass the buck; the blame has to be shared by all, and in equal measure.

In the present scenario, there are few leaders who can bring the BJP back to its fighting spirit. Many still believe Mr LK Advani is the best bet of the Sangh, the BJP, the NDA, and the country to take this challenge, not only because of his experience, age, calibre and stature, but also because of his ability to unite people across party lines and create a formidable Hindu front.

The party needs the right blend of hardline and moderate politicians, all of whom must dissolve their differences in order to uphold the values of India's cultural unity. As the saying goes, now is the time for all good men to come to aid of the party.

In the interest of the Hindu cause that otherwise is threatened by numerous inimical forces, the saffron think tank needs to take a sabbatical - it must re-focus, revamp and reinforce its rank-and-file. The outcome of such an effort should be nothing short of a mass revolution. Till then status quo may be maintained, allowing the BJP leaders to take the challenges of the UPA Government through their own political skills and experimentations. Let there be natural progression and evolution leading to a natural change of era, rather than forced and hasty alterations that may cause irreparable damage.

It is to be hoped that future historians do not once again note the infighting among Hindus as the turning point, that failed to strengthen the country in the 21st century. History need not repeat itself - neither as a tragedy nor as a farce.

The Great Indian Political Debate - 2 - Guest - 09-14-2005

BJP attacks PM for his remark on VajpayeeQUOTETaking exception to Prime Minister Manmohan Singh's remarks in New York on his predecessor Atal Bihari Vajpayee, BJP on Wednesday accused him of breaking the tradition of not discussing internal politics on foreign soil.

BJP Vice President Mukhtar Abbas Naqvi said Singh was creating a "new tradition" in Indian polity, which was "dangerous" for the country.

"It has been a healthy tradition of this country that whenever a Prime Minister or any other senior leader visits a foreign country, he or she does not discuss internal politics of India," Naqvi said sharply reacting to Singh's remark that Vajpayee was critical of the nuclear Indo-US agreement.

Indian PM or in fact any cabinnet minister should not discuss any internal discussion related to Indian foreign policy outside country. Every country go through internal discussion before finalizing any policy, here Manmohan washing his dirty laundry in US.
Petty politics should be played outside country.

The Great Indian Political Debate - 2 - Guest - 09-15-2005

QUOTE(Mudy @ Sep 14 2005, 10:40 PM)BJP attacks PM for his remark on Vajpayee<div class='quotetop'>QUOTETaking exception to Prime Minister Manmohan Singh's remarks in New York on his predecessor Atal Bihari Vajpayee, BJP on Wednesday accused him of breaking the tradition of not discussing internal politics on foreign soil.

BJP Vice President Mukhtar Abbas Naqvi said Singh was creating a "new tradition" in Indian polity, which was "dangerous" for the country.

"It has been a healthy tradition of this country that whenever a Prime Minister or any other senior leader visits a foreign country, he or she does not discuss internal politics of India," Naqvi said sharply reacting to Singh's remark that Vajpayee was critical of the nuclear Indo-US agreement.

Indian PM or in fact any cabinnet minister should not discuss any internal discussion related to Indian foreign policy outside country. Every country go through internal discussion before finalizing any policy, here Manmohan washing his dirty laundry in US.
Petty politics should be played outside country.
[right][snapback]38588[/snapback][/right]
</div>

I hope you meant "petty politics should NOT be played outside country !

The Great Indian Political Debate - 2 - Guest - 09-15-2005

chandramoulee,
Thanks, sorry for typo. <!--emo& Smile

--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' />

The Great Indian Political Debate - 2 - acharya - 09-16-2005

When Jaswant took Indian politics to foreign shores

Siddharth Varadarajan

WHEN THE Bharatiya Janata Party chose to protest the fact that Prime Minister Manmohan Singh had made a reference to Atal Bihari Vajpayee's opposition to the India-United States nuclear agreement in his meeting with President George W. Bush in New York, it perhaps did not realise the party spokesperson being fielded was somebody least suited to accuse anybody of discussing "domestic politics" on "foreign soil."

On Wednesday, Jaswant Singh criticised the Prime Minister for telling Mr. Bush he was "surprised" at Mr. Vajpayee's opposition. "Media reports highlight PM Dr. Manmohan Singh's half hour meeting with President Bush in a particular vein as if the Prime Minister was complaining to the President of the USA about our domestic politics," Jaswant Singh's statement said. He added: "It needs to be emphasised that all established conventions, mutual regards and due courtesy demand that domestic politics is not made a subject of discussion by our Prime Minister when visiting abroad."

Whatever the rights and wrongs of the allegation â and there is merit on both sides â Jaswant Singh himself stands guilty of "complaining ... about our domestic politics" while on an official trip overseas.

In a speech to the Israeli Council on Foreign Relations in Jerusalem on July 2, 2000, Mr. Singh â who was External Affairs Minister at the time â spoke about how there had been a "tectonic shift of consciousness" under the BJP and said the failure of India to draw closer to Israel until then was because of a "very strong urge among politicians" to continue in office. This, he explained, was because the Muslim vote could not be ignored. "India's Israel policy became a captive to domestic policy that came to be unwittingly an unstated veto to (sic) India's larger West Asian policy."

Here, not only was Mr. Singh raising an issue of "domestic politics," he was blaming an entire section of Indian citizens for an official policy that he wished to disown. Needless to say, this was also a misrepresentation of reality, unlike Dr. Manmohan Singh's accurate characterisation of Mr. Vajpayee's public opposition to the nuclear deal. The Collected Works of Mahatma Gandhi as well as Jawaharlal Nehru's writings belie Mr. Singh's claim that India traditionally supported the Palestinian cause on anything other than its merits. And so widespread was the pro-Palestinian political consensus in India that no less a person than Mr. Vajpayee â who was External Affairs Minister-designate at the time â sat on the dais of a large rally in Delhi's Ramlila grounds in March 1977.

Mr. Jaswant Singh's tendency to discuss domestic politics in his discussions with foreign leaders was not confined to this one example. In his extended "strategic dialogue" with Strobe Talbott, Deputy Secretary of State under President Bill Clinton, domestic Indian political issues often came up. "Jaswant had been candid with me many times about his domestic politics and how they obtruded on our diplomacy, and I now owed him a bit of reciprocity," Talbott writes in his recent book, Engaging India: Diplomacy, Democracy and the Bomb (page 203). On page 121, Mr. Talbott says Jaswant "referred again to the difficulties of Indian domestic politics."

Unlike Dr. Manmohan Singh, who mentioned the flak he had got from Mr. Vajpayee and others in the Opposition, Mr. Jaswant Singh appears not to have spared those on "his own" side. In his book, Mr. Talbott writes of a meeting in New York on September 20, 1999. "I registered a strong objection to the draft nuclear doctrine [Brajesh] Mishra had presented in August. Jaswant replied that since the paper had no imprimatur from the government, it should not be taken too seriously. It was not really even a doctrine â it was just a set of recommendations that Vajpayee would almost certainly not accept. The U.S. should not `dignify' it by over-reacting."

Mr. Talbott was clearly taken aback. "I pointed out that Jaswant was disavowing in private something that Mishra had unveiled in public, which suggested that the more-is-better philosophy of deterrence had significant backing from powerful forces in the government, the BJP, the Parliament, the defence and foreign establishment. Not necessarily, Jaswant replied. Everything had to be understood against the backdrop of a hard-fought election campaign."

Mr. Jaswant Singh can be faulted here for his choice of words with Mr. Talbott but â unlike his Israel remarks â not the fact that he was discussing domestic politics. Indeed, it is difficult to imagine a discussion among world leaders where domestic political realities are not articulated or shared. As a former resident of the glass house called diplomacy, Mr. Singh should have thought twice before throwing stones.

The Great Indian Political Debate - 2 - acharya - 09-16-2005

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VHP favours law against conversions

Staff Reporter

Public awareness programme planned in two lakh villages

# Dharma Sansad planned in various parts of the country
# Reservation for minorities opposed
# Enactment of common civil code demanded

BANGALORE: Terming religious conversion as an attack on the sovereignty and security of the country, the all-India secretary of Vishwa Hindu Parishad Mohan Joshi has demanded that the Centre and the States enact laws to ban it.

Mr. Joshi told presspersons here on Thursday that over 4,000 foreign Christian missionaries were engaged in proselytising activities throughout the country focusing on the southern States.

In the light of the disturbing development, the VHP would launch a public awareness programme in two lakh villages besides organising a Dharma Sansad at Haridwar, Prayag (Allahabad), Puri, Guwahati, Karnavati (Ahmedabad) and Tirupati, he said.

Benny Hinn visit

American priest Benny Hinn visited Bangalore early this year with a secret mission to convert 15 lakh Hindus into Christianity. In 1997, Canadian priest Ron Watts visited Kerala, Tamil Nadu and Andhra Pradesh on a business visa and converted over 10 lakh Hindus of those States into Christianity, Mr. Joshi alleged.

On learning about his activities in 2003, the additional executive magistrate of Pathanamthitta district in Kerala ordered him to leave the country within 24 hours. But vested interests shifted him "illegally" to Tamil Nadu.

However, the Ministry of Home Affairs issued a deportation order against Mr. Ron and his wife Dorothy Mary Watts. Following it, Mr. Ron left India only to return later with a new business visa that is valid until 2008, he said.

Christian population

According to the 2001 Census report, the overall population of the Christian community in the country is 2.34 crore. But the community has five Chief Ministers in Nagaland, Mizoram, Meghalaya, Kerala and Andhra Pradesh.

It also holds over 10 per cent of portfolios at the Centre. There were apprehensions that Christian organisations had plans to engage themselves in "vigorous conversion activities as happened in the North-East and encourage anti-national separatist movements in South India," he said.

Quota

Referring to the UPA Government's reported moves to give special reservation to minorities and Christians in education and in government service, Mr. Joshi said that such a move would prove to be another disaster for the country.

"Where is the need to give special reservation for them as the Constitution has guaranteed equal rights for all?"

The need of the hour was to enact a common civil code and abolish minority commissions and not special reservations, he added.

The Great Indian Political Debate - 2 - acharya - 09-16-2005

Increasing defiance of secularism by Muslims?

By M.V.Kamath

When India became independent after being partitioned on religious lines, it was part of Delhiâs faith that it would be secular in every possible way in sharp contrast to Pakistanâs approach that Muslims constitute a separate nation. There was no other stand that India could possibly have taken.

If Indiaâs political leaders agreed to partition it was not because they agreed to the Two-Nation Theory but because they were unwilling to land the entire country into a civil war on religious grounds. Perhaps they should have chosen the option, even if it reduced the entire country temporarily into a shambles.

At the very least it would have saved a lot of trouble in later years. The Muslim community would have found its place in a secular government and all would have been well. But after spending several years in jail and unwilling to see the country torn to pieces because of intransigence on the part of certain Muslim leaders, Congress leaders and they were then the voice of the people decided, howsoever unwillingly, to accept partition.

Those Muslims left in India then realised that they cannot afford to alienate the majority community any longer, lest they invite its wrath. The Congress Party fully cashed in on it and won election after election with the Muslim support.

At the same time, Muslims began to realise that they could live in India without, fear, that indeed they got better terms as a minority than they ever dreamt of and had not Pakistan turned into a religious state, first under General Ayub Khan and later under Gen Zia, their future would have been brighter than they visualised.

Instead of learning to live in peace, successive Pakistan leaders felt compelled to treat India as an enemy, their minds psyched to the days of Mohamad of Ghazni. That psyche has not changed. It was Gen. Ayub Khan who said that one Pakistani (Muslim) soldier was equal to ten Indian (Hindu) sepoys.

Never mind if he got a bloody nose and that in three successive wars, Pakistan was defeated. But the psyche, it would seem, continues. Pakistani students are now being taught that Hindus are âdevious and cowardlyâ. And this, not in madrassahs which, according to facts revealed by a US organisation, at best teach 1.7 million students, but in Government-rum schools that cater to 25 million students.

What kind of society can one expect to grow in Pakistan under such a vicious educational system? This was noticed even by the Wall Street Journal. It was noticed that Pakistani text books were also describing Christians as âvengeful conquerorsâ and Jews as âtight-fisted money-lendersâ; all this went unnoticed for a long time with military-dominated Islamabad managing to camouflage its bigotry infested curricula from outside purview.

The United States, eager to enlist Islamic fundamentalists in its fight against the Soviet Unionâs presence in Afghanistan, for a long time turned a blind eye to Pakistanâs educational system, but now, especially after what Al-Qaeda has done, is waking up to the reality that is Pakistan.

The US State Department has now apparently taken the matter on hand. In an unusually tough statement the State Department has said that continued teaching of prejudice in Pakistan is a matter of âserious concernâ and that it has engaged the Pakistan Government on this issue described as âclearly unacceptable and incitefulâ.

The State Departmentâs spokesman, Sean McCormick told the media that Pakistanâs Education Minister Javed Ashraf Qazi has been apprised of Washingtonâs concern but there is scepticism in many US quarters that Islamabad would do anything to rectify the situation, considering that Qazi is a former ISI chief and like Musharraf is a product of the Pakistani military that has fed a distorted historical narrative to its people.

According to Pakistani text books, âunder the Khiljis Pakistan moved southward to include a greater part of Central India and the Deccan (and) in retrospect it may be said that during the 16th century,Hindustan`disappeared and was completely absorbed in Pakistanâ.

It is one thing for Pakistan to write such stuff but, what is more to be aware of, is the increasing defiance of secularism in India by Muslim organisations which have not, for once, stood by the Indian Government on the matter of Jammu & Kashmir. The sheer impertinence of a Muslim organisation to claim that Taj Mahal is its property, takes oneâs breath away.

It cannot just be a coincidence that the Deoband Dar-ul-Uloom recently tried to find out how far it can go to destroy Indiaâs secularism. At first Deoband asserted that it has every right to issue political fatwas.

Had India meekly succumbed to this, Deoband would have gone a step further, and then still another step further, to destroy Indiaâs secularism. Happily, the government quickly asserted that fatwas issued by Islamic institutions are not valid in the eyes of law.

The Deoband fatwa claims to have been only in connection with religious (read civil) matters. If the government had given in, Deoband would have interfered in criminal matters as well, turning the Government of Indiaâs Code of Criminal Procedure 1973 into a huge joke.

In a timely intervention, Union Law Minister H. R. Bharadwaj has said in a written reply in Rajya Sabha that the procedure to be followed in criminal courts are set out in the Code of Criminal Procedure and that the fatwas issued by Islamic institutions do not have legal sanctity.

That is not enough; Deoband and all other Islamic institutions must be sternly warned that any interference with established law in the country would be very sternly dealt with.

Now we are told that Deoband has decided not to issue any more fatwas on non-religious matters and those that have political overtones. Maulana Marghoobur Rehman, vice Chancellor, is reported to have said that Muftis issuing controversial fatwas discouraging Muslim women from contesting elections, have been asked not to issue a fatwa having political overtones.

Deoband apparently received about 200 applications for fatwa every month. It is nobodyâs contention that in a caste dispute, a caste body cannot act as an arbitrator. In Mumbai a caste organisation even settles civil disputes through mutual understanding of parties concerned.

That has become necessary because taking civil cases to courts is not only costly but time-consuming. Justice is not available for months, if not years. But it is one thing to settle civilmatters privately and quite another to issue religious fatwas making a mockery of secularism.

According to the new face of Deoband, in issuing a fatwa that women seeking elections should wear burqa all that was meant was that âMuslim women who participate in any political process should dress accordingly and conduct themselves with dignity in public lifeâ.

Does that mean that Hindu women who address public meetings are dressed indecently and donât carry themselves with dignity? What nonsense is being so openly purveyed? One suspects that there is a larger organisation that is behind these new developments in Bangladesh, when some 500 bombs and grenades were simultaneously exploded in 63 out of 64 districts, it became clear that some powerful organisation of fundamentalists was behind it.

It is not easy to manufacture these bombs, convey them to districts without interference and get them exploded within 30 minutes without some powerful organisation behind it all. Hardly anybody was killed; what is implied in this is that if the government does not bend down to the fundamentalists, they are fully capable of indulging in large-scale killings.

Some organisations like the Jammat-i-Islami, Islami Oikya Jote, Islamic tantra-Andonlam and Khilafat Andolan have been identified but they are obviously financed by outside bodies. Suspect are Pakistanâs ISI and, for good measure, Saudi Arabia. India is taking everything lightly. Bangladeshi Muslims are pushed into West Bengal and Assam districts to the point that many districts on the Nepal and Bangladesh periphery are having Muslim majorities.

The Bangladeshis have to be identified and summarily thrown out of the country. India cannot afford the luxury of tolerance and patience. Its very security is involved. It makes no sense to build fences. Fences can be broken. And the Bangladesh Rifles feel free to open fire on Indiaâs Border Security Force in the Malda area. That is some cheek.

What India should do is to read the Riot Act to Dhaka and warn it that India might mount a major invasion to protect its territorial integrity. Magnanimity does not pay where fundamentalists are concerned. They treat Indians (read Hindus) as weak and their tolerance is misinterpreted as lack of courage and pure cowardice.

India must realise that it has to deal with two fundamentalist states which have no respect for law. It is now learnt that India is planning to give $ 150 million credit to Dhaka, which is totally unscrupulous when it comes to India, with Bangla Industries Minister Motiur Rahman Nizami even going to the extent of accusing India of triggering off the 17 August bomb blasts!

In 1998 then Governor of Assam Lt Gen S. K. Sinha had warned about Bangladeshi infiltration into Assam and West Bengal. Now, a former Director General of Indiaâs Border Security Force is quoted as saying that it is high time âwe changed our policy, attitude and national priorities and tell Bangladesh that enough is enoughâ. It was a proper Muslim, Turkeyâs Kemal Ataturk, who had the courage to ban burqa and turn his state into a modern nation.

India must take a lesson from Kemal Ataturk. Burqa must be banned in public. That is pure secularism. But what can one expect from a Congress government which permits a text book published under its auspices to say that Sri Ramakrishna Paramahansa was âmentally derangedâ?

Hindu saints can be insulted under secularism. Muslim fundamentalism remains insulated. India is paying a dear price for its fake secularism. It is time Indians have started to realise it.

The Great Indian Political Debate - 2 - shamu - 09-16-2005

Since death of DMK is imminent, Jayalalitha really needs a challenger in TN. Finally a film star has decided to jump into this opportunity. Even though it not sure how well Vijay Kanth is going to perform, I see few positive things for India as a whole.
- His party doesn't claim to be a typical Dravidian party
- Very pro-India views (no anti-Hindi, anti-North feelings)
- He doesn't hide his Hindu identity

Vijaykant launches political party

Madurai, Sept 14 (Chennaionline): Popular Tamil film actor Vijaykant today plunged into politics when he launched his own political outfit -- Desiya Murpokku Dravidar Kazhagam (DMDK) -- at a state-level conference of his fans association at Thoppur near here.

Vijaykant, who had been toying with the idea of forming a political party for the last four years, finally did it today, amidst milling crowds of his supporters, who had thronged the temple city right from last night.

Launching the party, he said he was relying on the support of a major section of Tamil population, mainly women.

A confident looking Vijaykant said he named his party, Desiya Murpokku Dravidar Kazhagam, only to prove the point that Tamil Nadu was part and parcel of India. Indicating that his party's programmes and policies, which were to be announced in the evening, would be progressive, he said that was why he had included the name Murpokku (progressive) in the party's name.

He said he had to struggle very hard to pick the name for the party, and had to discuss with his wife Premalatha and a close friend to finalise the name.

"I had to think for hours and only yesterday with the blessings of Lord Siva, Goddess Meenakshi, Lord Muruga and my family deity did I finalise the name, DMDK," Vijaykant, who visited the famous Meenakshi temple here last night, said.

He formally hoisted his party's flag before the conference began. (Agencies)

Tamil actor enters political race

Few pictures

The Great Indian Political Debate - 2 - Guest - 09-26-2005

QUOTETime to detoxify our politics 
A Surya Prakash
The Congress party and the Communist Party of India have dismissed the explosive revelations in The Mitrokhin Archive II: The KGB and the World by Christopher Andrew and Vasili Mitrokhin as "baseless"and "preposterous" but the truth is that Mitrokhin's account of the former Soviet Union's deep penetration into the Indian establishment and these political parties is corroborated by other equally knowledgeable and credible sources. These sources include IA Benediktov, Soviet Ambassador to India in the early 1960s and Maloy Krishna Dhar, former Joint Director of the Indian Intelligence Bureau, who kept a close watch on the activities of the KGB in India. In addition, there is Daniel Patrick Moynihan, US Ambassador to India in the early 1970s who has said that even the Americans had funded the Congress.

The main points made in The Mitrokhin Archive II are as follows : "Krishna Menon was the first Congressman to be 'bought over' by KGB. Many others followed; Indira Gandhi was won over; KGB funded the Congress party and the Communist Party of India in 1967; after the Congress split in 1969, the Soviets funded Indira Gandhi and her party; in 1971, the Soviet politburo gifted Indira Gandhi's Congress Â® Rs 2 million. In 1971, a leading Congressman who was a KGB mole was paid Rs 1 lakh a year; KGB penetration into the Congress and Government was so complete that its head, Andropov, turned down the offer of a Union Minister to sell secrets for US $50,000; KGB funded Communists through import-export and publications businesses; KGB backed imposition of Emergency and pumped in funds to bolster Indira Gandhi's popularity." For want of space, I will not go beyond this summary of The Mitrokhin Archive II because sections of the media have extensively reported the contents of this book. Instead, I will turn my attention to the other sources that lend credence to Mitrokhin's account of how the Soviets had infiltrated the Congress, the Government and the Communist Party in those days.

The first of these is IA Benediktov. The relationship between the Soviet Union and the Communist Party of India is laid bare in the noting of Benediktov. Excerpts from his diaries are available in the New East-Bloc Documents on the Sino-Indian Conflict, 1959 and 1962 as part of the Cold War International History Project at the Woodrow Wilson Center for Scholars website. I would appeal to every concerned Indian with access to the internet to please visit this website. The contents are shocking and are bound to make every self-respecting Indian hang his head in shame. One noting talks of how Bhupesh Gupta, secretary of the CPI went to him pleading for money on the eve of the February, 1967 general elections.

Benediktov says he met Bhupesh Gupta 10 days later and at this meeting Gupta expressed his gratitude to the Soviet leadership for its positive response to his request. In another noting Benediktov records the pleadings of another great Communist EMS Namboodiripad. This leader, Benedivtov says, thanked Moscow for supporting China after hostilities broke out between India and China war in 1962!

Our own 'Mitrokhin', Maloy Krishna Dhar, former Joint Director of the Intelligence Bureau, comes up with equally startling information in his book, Open Secrets - India's Intelligence Unveiled, which was published earlier this year. This is what he has to say about our "patriotic" Congressmen and MPs in his book: "My painstaking research and intelligence penetration had succeeded in identifying over four Union Ministers and over two dozen members of Parliament who were on the payrolls of the KGB operatives. Some of them were still around. One of them, a journalist of sort, is now on the payrolls of a Bombay based tycoon. He masquerades as an evergreen 'troubleshooter', a Pakistan expert and an avatar of Track II diplomacy. For obvious reasons I would not like to name them." { Kuldeep Nayyar}

As regards the Communists and left intellectuals, Mr Dhar says he was "surprised and shocked" by the vast sweep of Soviet penetration. His study of left controlled publications showed that the main parties and front organisations received considerable subsidies from the Soviet Embassy. "Several writers, poets and artists were on their payrolls. Over a dozen of them were on regular visits to the Soviet Block countries for fraternal meetings, education and treatment etc. The roster was so long that it became well nigh impossible to keep surveillance on all of them. The most interesting case was that of a Member of Parliament, who regularly received a pay packet from the Soviet Embassy for covering certain segments of the kitchen cabinet of Indira Gandhi. In fact, the Soviets had succeeded in considerably influencing a large number of educationists, litterateurs, artists and opinion makers."

Mr Dhar also talks of a top CPI(M) leader with Soviet links. He says he planted a long-range radio transmitter in the car of this leader and gathered evidence of his conversations with a Soviet intelligence man. When the evidence was presented to Mrs Gandhi, she was disinclined to declare the Soviet operative persona non grata.

However, Mr Dhar says, his tryst with the Soviet counter-intelligence unit in the IB was short-lived: "I had started trampling over too many powerful toes and focusing the arc lamp on a grey area that was dear to the Communists as well as to some factions of the ruling party. Deeper penetration of the forces won over by the Soviet Block by an intelligence agency irked a number of important secular and democratic opinion makers."

He was soon transferred to another unit. I would appeal to every Indian democrat to read Open Secrets to know how perilously close we often are to losing our democratic and constitutional rights. This book must also be read to identify political parties and organisations which are inimical to the idea of a democratic India.

Finally, evidence from America. Patrick Moynihan in the book, A Dangerous Place, which he co-authored with Suzanne Weaver (published in India in 1979), says that in 1974 Prime Minister Indira Gandhi was making allegations about "the ever present danger of subversion by the CIA". This prompted him to investigate "what we had been up to" in the preceding quarter-century in India. This is what he found, in his own words: "In the end I was satisfied we had been up to very little. We had twice, but only twice, interfered in Indian politics to the extent of providing money to a political party. Both times this was done in the face of a prospective Communist victory in a State election, once in Kerala and once in West Bengal, where Calcutta is located. Both times the money was given to the Congress, which had asked for it. Once it was given to Mrs Gandhi herself, who was then a party official. Still, as we were no longer giving money to her, it was understandable that she should wonder just to whom we were giving it. It is not a practice to be encouraged."

All this evidence, when collated, adds up to just one thing - a story of perfidy. The accounts of Benediktov, Moynihan and our own 'Mitrokhin' lend credence to the conclusion drawn by the authors of Mitrokhin II that India was up for sale during the Cold War. This evidence, when aggregated, leaves one with a sinking feeling. A lot of people in our politics have, for a few pieces of Soviet silver, compromised India's interests. All of those identified by these sources were either Communists or members of the Congress. Sadly, one of those accused of securing foreign assistance to advance the politics of the Congress was a Prime Minister of India - Indira Gandhi.

While a lot more work needs to be done to identify every act of treachery, the material currently at hand is indeed substantial. All those who wish to preserve democracy and India's self respect must pursue this enquiry to its logical end. We must detoxify our politics. www.dailypioneer.com/inde...nter_img=3

The Great Indian Political Debate - 2 - Guest - 09-27-2005

QUOTE(acharya @ Sep 16 2005, 07:44 AM)Increasing defiance of secularism by Muslims?

By M.V.Kamath

India must take a lesson from Kemal Ataturk. Burqa must be banned in public. That is pure secularism. But what can one expect from a Congress government which permits a text book published under its auspices to say that Sri Ramakrishna Paramahansa was âmentally derangedâ?

Hindu saints can be insulted under secularism. Muslim fundamentalism remains insulated. India is paying a dear price for its fake secularism. It is time Indians have started to realise it.[right][snapback]38619[/snapback][/right]


A person who saw his wife as mother is definitely mentally deranged. If you see your wife as your mother and behave like that, she may kill you even. At least she will abandon you go with a MAN.

How can he be called a saint? He can not even be called a human. Mentally deranged people will feel that it is abusing a hindu saint.