Dalits - Real Issues & Discussion

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Dalits - Real Issues & Discussion - Guest - 04-18-2005

While I do not agree wth most of the views expressed by Pathma on the Dalit issue, we should not disallow him or discourage him from posting in this forum simply because he is part of the diaspora and lives in malaysia. He has travelled much in Iindia and we welcome his intense interest in matters pertaining to Hinduism.He if course has his own prejudices which are irrational imo but that is his prerogative.

So i ask that we do not use the argument that a Hindu lives elsewhwere and has therefore no right to comment on Indian conditions. It is one of my aims in IF to underline all that is unifying in the weltanschuung (Darshana) of the Hindus. It is unfortunate that lately Pathma has chosen to emphasize issues that divide rather than Unify. It is my contention that as far as the Dalits are concerned we all wish them well so that they will not feel compelled to refer themselves as dalits. Contrary to the viewpoint oft expressed by Pathma, the vast majority of those who are not dalits do walk the talk in myriad different ways to make this happen. Unfortunately every change in India takes time and happens at a glacial pace.

Dalits - Real Issues & Discussion - Guest - 04-19-2005

QUOTE(Viren @ Apr 12 2005, 09:35 PM) <div class='quotetop'>QUOTERecent NS happenings:

"We have a real village, real people--two castes live in the area. We have been asked to fund renovation of a temple in the 'paria' hamlet. I put the condition that the we'll help only if the temple is open to all--that fishermen caste are invited to the temple opening and have some people from the city attend it too. Also since is being done by a religious orgnaization--I wanted them to do an upanayanam ceremony for a few boys and girls in the village. They readily agreed!"
To have a true appreciation for what you claim, feel free to share: name of the place, pictures if possible, the number of people who will benefit from this temple, the obstacles you all faced, how you overcame or plan to overcome those obstacles etc. Also how strong is their belief about or this upanayanam a token head bath a la Baptism? See if you can answer these questions as I'd really like to know. </div>
Hi Viren,

Here is a progress report I promised you:

"Recently, in Sri Meenakshi Temple, Houston, we raised funds
to buy a big boat for the fisherman who were hit by the Tsunami in
Devanampattinam, Cuddalore; even though "Fishing" is not a Vedic
Hindu occupation. The boat was given to them by a group of relatives
of people from here. [It was fun tosee a batch of orthodox vegetarian
ladies standing next to a basket of fresh catch fish and the "avarna" fisherman."

"We visited the village on 16th Apr with Ramamurthyji who is involved
in building and renovating many temples around Chennai. We also
distributed 350 Kgs of Rice on that day and gave Rudraksha malas and
other malas to adults and children and initiated many of them into
Panchakshara Japa.

We had a detailed meeting with the village elders. They told us that
the present structure was built more than 30 years before and it had
also served as a Cyclone shelter many times when wind speeds reach
around 120 Kms per hour. We made a detailed survey and found out
that the roof may collapse anytime. The building has to be rebuilt.
We proposed to build the main sanctum and provide a hall for doing
Bhajans with sheet roofing which is cheaper. But the Villagers want
pucca concrete roofing so that the hall can also be used for small
functions and as a cyclone shelter for those who live in thatched
roof houses. We are taking the Sthapathi next week to this village
for making a detailed estimate. Ramamurthyji told me that
approximately it may cost around Rs. 1,50,000 if we build the hall
with concrete roof. I have attached some of the pictures taken.

with love and prayers,

Jaishankar"

and a photo of a diksha ceremony

http://photos.groups.yahoo.com/group/navya...rc=gr%26.view=t

There! Its done!

I hope it meets your satisfaction and kind approval. <!--emo& Smile

--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /> If there are any shortcomings, I'm sure you will let me know by hollerin' in my ears.

Regards.

Pathma

Dalits - Real Issues & Discussion - Guest - 04-19-2005

Congratulations Pathama. I don't think there's any one here on this forum that will criticize the work towards uplifting a certain section of the community. In fact you might find support too for doing so.

The issue seems to be your condescending attitude towards some Indians and Hindus in particular.
For example what exactly is "It was fun tosee a batch of orthodox vegetarian ladies standing next to a basket of fresh catch fish and the "avarna" fisherman"
and is there a published Vedic occupation list that you all are going by to say that "Fishing" is not a Vedic Hindu occupation" - from what little I know about Hinduism there are plenty references of fishermen in Mahabharata and Ramayana too.

You might be doing good work but you'll find a lot more support if your drop the standard missionary propoganda. My unsolicited advise, you are free to take it or leave it. Please do post all your success and even more, try to give some credit to who have been doing this for a lot longer than you guys. Such posts are always welcome; save the anti-India and anti-Hindu tirade for forums and yahoogroups other than this.

Dalits - Real Issues & Discussion - Guest - 04-20-2005

QUOTESo i ask that we do not use the argument that a Hindu lives elsewhwere and has therefore no right to comment on Indian conditions. It is one of my aims in IF to underline all that is unifying in the weltanschuung (Darshana) of the Hindus. It is unfortunate that lately Pathma has chosen to emphasize issues that divide rather than Unify.

Kaushal,

It is not about whether or not a person living outside India has the right to comment about conditions in India. Of course anyone has the right to express their opinion about India. Heck, if anything at all, India and her social, economic, political, and religious issues are a free reign for just about anybody and everybody - even the Abominable snowman.

The problem it seems to be is that too many anti-India, anti-Hindu elements wander about India, claiming to do social reforms in the country, but in reality end up creating more friction and division in the society. Who as better illustration than the foreign evengelists and missionaries wandering about every nook and corner of India claiming to uplift the poor masses. Their work appears, no doubt, at first glance to be highly commendable, but the bottom line is their mission has been to christianize India, and whats worse, turn the new converts against Hindus and ultimately destroy HInduism.

I was delibrately harsh on Pathmaraja, primarily because after reading all his posts- not only in this section but also in the Seers section - I am convinced (of course, there is always that small, minuscule room for error in my judgement) that his motives for social work are similar to those of the western christian evangelist wandering about India- to destroy the foundation of HInduism and Hindu society. He passions, for his social work, seem to be driven more from contempt and hatred toward a particular Hindu community, which makes his actions all the more dangerous and detrimental to Hinduism and Hindu society.

To me, it would seem, that a person, irrespective of his residence or citizenship, who is genuinely interested in, and concerned, about India's welfare and progress is apt to recommend or suggest reforms for the upliftment of underprivileged communities that doesn't attempt to exclude or destroy other communities in the process. The proper path of development of any society requires that equal opportunity must be awarded to all, without a doubt, but also that no one community is uplifted at the expense of the success and opportunity of another. Otherwise, there will be nothing but ongoing friction within society and social disruption.

Dalits MUST be given opportunities, but NOT at the cost of attacking, humiliating, suppressing, and subjugating other Hindu communities.

There are enough anti-hindu, anti-India elements within India who are trying to disrupt Indian society and bring about chaos, wihtout their enlisting the help of foreigners with devious intentions. I always welcome, and will continue to welcome, suggestions for India's social and economic, and particularly ways to broaden the reach of Hinduism within and outside the country, and to undo the damage that centuries of foreign conquership has done to the Hindu religion and society. But what I will not entertain are radical solutions that call for the blood of any particular Hindu community, or pitches one Hindu community against another, or calls for the obliteration of any particular community.

What makes Hinduism great is the fact that different Hindu schools of thought from throughout the country and different Hindu communities, each with their own worship practices, conduct, rituals, and interpretation of the scriptures, have coexisted for centuries, and enriched the religion and given it a broader and deeper meaning.

Thus, my recommendation to Pathmarajah to butt out!

I apologize though to other members of the forum if I have erroneously conveyed the impression that non-Indians or Hindus living elsewhere should not contribute their views on India and Hinduism.

Dalits - Real Issues & Discussion - Bharatvarsh - 04-20-2005

"We all know that science, technology, democracy and modern systems of governance have come from the Christian world of Europe and America. Then, why this Christian bashing? India, right from Nehru's days, has been holding out its begging bowl to foreign countries. But the money brought into the country in the name of development, never reaches the Dalits. Thus, if any money is coming in from abroad to help the Dalit cause, it must be welcomed. Will TATA or Reliance ever give up even one paisa to fight the Varna/Caste order? Then, how will Dalits travel abroad to expose India's Varna order? Is Indian capital benevolent towards the Dalits? By one single act, the CPI(M) has cleansed itself of many sins. Are other Varna parties, too, prepared to take a dip in Durban? "

The CPM is a joke, anyone with any thinking power knows that when Christianity ruled dark ages prevailed. It was Christians who persecuted Galileo for saying that the earth was a sphere, don't where these CPM jokers get their facts from, it was the weakening of Christianity that helped the West progress. And further why do these Marxist jokers talk about Christian bashing, how many Christians did Stalin slaughter, they themselves slaughtered millions of Christians is the Soviet union. And how the hell did all the science come from Europe, Hindus made enormous contributions to science and maths, these Marxist [edited] seem to revel in kissing Christian ass. And these jokers are supposed to be eminent scholars and intellectuals. As for Pathamarajah all he does is spread is anti hindu propaganda from Muslims and Christians, may be he should put his own house in order before advising Hindu Indians (what did he do to remove discrimination against Indians in Malaysia probably nothing).

Dalits - Real Issues & Discussion - Guest - 04-21-2005

xposting Mudy post from xtian missionary thread..

RSS accuses new Pope of religious intoleranceQUOTERSS Chief KS Sudarshan on Wednesday made a scathing attack on the new Pope accusing him of "religious intolerance" and said such mindset leads to conflicts.

He also accused US President George Bush of funding missionaries in India.

Recalling the millennium peace summit of 2000 in New York where 1100 representatives from different faiths signed a document that there should be no bloodshed in the name of religions as they were different routes to one God, he said, Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger held a press conference shortly thereafter at the Vatican and released a 36 page doctrine 'Dominus Jesus'.

"The doctrine objected to anyone trying to bring their religion at par with the Roman Catholic church and described it as crossing limits of tolerance.

It said non-Christians cannot get salvation as they don't consider Jesus Christ as the son of God and even non-Catholics would find it difficult to get salvation as they don't consider the Pope as their head", Sudarshan said at a function to mark the second anniversary of devotional television channel Sadhana.

"Such mindset that we are superior to others leads to conflict (Sangharsh),", he said.

The RSS chief alleged that President Bush was trying to propagate Christianity at Government expense.

"Through an executive order, Bush, who is a re-born Christian, gave tax rebate of 80 billion dollars to Christian missionaries in 2002 and set up a special two billion dollar fund for Africa and India, which can be utilised without any question being asked," Sudarshan said.

He also alleged that Christian evangelists Pat Robertson and Billy Graham, who were close to Bush, wanted to convert both India and China to Christianity.

Alleging that a survey project 'Joshua -I' was carried out between 1991-2001 to identify the requirement of Churches in every village and town of India, he said, "CIA also helped in that project and money is pouring in to separate Dalits from Hindus and divide the majority community".

Expect Macwan types to get more hyper..

Dalits - Real Issues & Discussion - Guest - 04-21-2005

QUOTEIt was fun tosee a batch of orthodox vegetarian ladies standing next to a basket of fresh catch fish and the "avarna" fisherman."

I guess this statement by itself clearly demonstrates the definition of 'progress'.

Dalits - Real Issues & Discussion - Guest - 04-21-2005

http://www.countercurrents.org/dalit-kumar240503.htm

QUOTEDalit Diaspora Joins The Fight

By Vivek Kumar

The Indian Express
24 May, 2003

The Dalit diaspora has all of a sudden become visible. Yet another Dalit international conference was successfully concluded earlier this month in Vancouver, Canada, with the help of the Dalit diaspora in different parts of the world. This is the fourth such conference organised since 1998. The first one was organised in Malaysia, by the Dalit International Organisation in October 1998. It was followed by a two-day international conference on Dalit human rights in London in September 2000 by the Voice of Dalit International (VODI). VODI organised another International Dalit conference in India in February 2003. Besides, Dalits also participated in the World Conference Against Racism in Durban.

Three factors have contributed to the new visibility of the Dalit diaspora. One, increased communication facilities because of the information revolution. Log on to www.ambedkar.org, webmaster@ gururavidasssabha.org etc. and you can find out all about them. Two, the strengthening of civil society, with NGOs, both at the international and national level, taking keen interest in issues related to Dalits and other marginalised sections. And lastly, the intervention of the United Nations Human Rights Commission, World Bank, and other international and national institutions for maintenance of human rights of Dalit and other deprived sections. Based on the issues discussed in these Dalit international conferences, it is possible to arrive at an objective assessment of the present nature, scope, success and failure of the Dalit movement. We can also list the challenges faced by the Dalit movement in the 21st century.

Faced with atrocities within the Hindu social order, at the outset, Dalits in India face a challenge: Should they remain within the Hindu fold or convert to Buddhisim or to any other religion? The Dalit leadership has failed to give any clear cut direction to its followers. Further, the Dalit movement today faces a challenge from the communal forces, an issue on which these conferences have only voiced their concern without coming out with a strategy. The second challenge for the Dalits is how to face the onslaught of the processes of globalisation, privatisation, liberalisation etc. The rolling back of the state is making reservations for the Dalits under Article 335 of the Indian Constitution redundant. On the other hand, with the coming of MNCs, the demand for management, engineering, computer application degree holders is increasing, which Dalits canât cater to. One, because they are late starters in the realm of education and secondly, technical education is expensive which Dalits canât afford.

There are two paths suggested by the Dalits to tackle the aforesaid problem. One, capture political power by forming an independent party and implement your own agenda. This is being mooted on the basis that the Constitution gives the Dalits rights at par with other citizens, including the right to vote. The only effort which Dalits must make is to get these rights implemented in letter and spirit, which is possible only by forming a government. But the irony is that Dalits on their own do not have the numbers to form a government. So they must enter into alliances with some other political force. And it is difficult for them to find suitable allies.

The other path is that of diversity-supplier in recruitment. Recruitment diversity, which is now restricted to the government and public undertakings, will arguably extend into the private sector. Here, one can argue that if the rights enshrined in the Constitution were not fulfilled in the last 52 years, who can take the guarantee for the private sector?

How to bring the diverse facets of the Dalit movement into a state of dialogue is another challenge. Today the Dalit movement has diversified its nature and scope. There is the Dalit political and socio-religious reform movement, movement of Dalit bureaucracy, Dalit intellectual movement, which includes a number of magazines, journals, internet magazines and conferences etc. Today we also have international Dalit organisations led by the Dalit diaspora which are trying to raise issues confronting the Dalits. They have taken up matters concerning Dalits with the World Bank, IMF and UNHRC.

Another challenge for the Dalit movement is to bring Dalit women in its fold. Generally it is said that though the Dalit woman is triply exploited on the bases of caste, class and gender, yet she enjoys greater gender equality in comparison to women of other castes. Even so, Dalit women and their issues are absent from the Dalit movement. To spread the Dalit movement in regions like Orissa, Haryana, Madhya Pradesh, Rajasthan, West Bengal, Bihar, and create consciousness among the different castes other than the Mahars and Chamars, is another huge challenge confronting the Dalit movement. The international conferences have been successful in creating a greater visibility for the plight of the Dalits at the international level. Yet, unless the Dalit leadership is prepared to face the challenges faced by the Dalit movement back home, its development will be crippled.

Calls for dalit-muslim alliance comes from this fact. Mayawati is trying to make alliances with brahmins in UP. Same is happening in Maharashtra and Gujarat, IIRC.

Dalits - Real Issues & Discussion - Guest - 04-22-2005

http://www.saxakali.com/southasia/activism.htm

QUOTEA critical look at Dalit activism

Hindu 12-01-1999 :: Pg: 12 :: Col: c

By Gopal Guru

In recent years, the political radicalism of the Dalits has come to be defined in terms of two major modes. One is that they have shown a remarkable consistency in opposing both in elections and in the streets the Hindutva forces. Two, their politics is considered radical because of their constant efforts at empowering themselves by sharing power with others. It is particularly true in the case of the Dalits of Maharashtra, Uttar Pradesh and the southern States that they have been consistent in taking an un-compromising positions against the Hindutva forces. The anti-Hindutva feeling among the Dalits is so strong that they do not tolerate their own leaders who hobnob with these forces either directly or indirectly. Such leaders who took an ambiguous position vis-a-vis the Sena-BJP Government in Maharashtra and remained quite callous about the killing of the Dalits in police firing in Mumbai in July last year were assaulted. The political radicalism is also being defined in terms of the Dalits' bargaining power that no political party can ignore in parliamentary politics in the country. This is true in Maharashtra and Uttar Pradesh where the Dalits seem politically organised outside the influence of the mainstream parties. Thus political autonomy is treated as another dimension of this radicalism by certain Dalit political leaders from these two States.

The scenario might be true in a sense, but this kind of reading of the Dalits' activism offers a narrow and uni-dimensional notion of their political radicalism. For it does not tackle the structures of oppression and discrimination that exist within the Dalit situation. For example, Dalits activism in Maharashtra is politically blind to the social practices such as Dalit patriarchy, which seeks to oppress, torture, humiliate and marginalise its womenfolk. This patriarchy in Maharashtra, and even in the entire country, reproduces the upper caste tradition of dowry which commodifies women even from landless Dalit families. The dowry system, which was almost non-existent among the Dalits two decades ago, has now become a serious problem particularly in Maharashtra. Poor parents who cannot afford to give dowry are reported to be ``selling'' their girls outside the State, and those who cannot be sold or married off are ultimately left to be tortured by parents and by the Dalit community, which arrogates to itself the right to ensure the chastity and fidelity of its women. Interestingly, this issue did not find prominence in the recently-held Dalit women's conferences in the State.

Apart from the gender insensitivity among common Dalits, their leaders and even Dalit feminists in Maharashtra, the notion of purity and pollution has deeply divided the community both vertically and horizontally. Vertically, for example, this notion has made the Charmakar (leather worker) despise the Mahar- Buddhists who, in turn, despise the Matangs who are treated as inferior in the social hierarchy not only in Maharashtra but also elsewhere. At the horizontal level, the Buddhists are socially divided among themselves. And the social division prevails in protecting the kinship boundaries. The kinship network that maintains the social distance among the Buddhists operates through marriage practices and other rituals in Maharashtra. But the Buddhists, who are socio-culturally divided, are politically united against the Hindutva forces.

The question one has to raise is why the Dalit leaders avoid addressing themselves to the question of internal critique. How does one understand such incoherent behaviour among the Dalits? In other words, why does this bizarre consciousness which represents their intellectual crisis waver between the conservative and radical modes? There are several reasons that help us understand this. The first and foremost is the threat of the Shiv Sena-BJP dominating their thought and action. This political immediacy dominates the cognitive map of Dalit politics, thus leaving out the question of confronting the oppressive patriarchy.

Moreover, the common Dalits do not undertake the painful exercise of internal critique as it undermines their power of patriarchy. This logical incoherence conforms to the political expectations of the Dalit leaders, who deliberately insulate the private sphere of the common Dalit from public criticism so that they can fill the common Dalit consciousness with emotion and manipulate the community. Their effort to maintain the distinction between the private or social and the political life of the Dalits, in effect, denies the common Dalit consciousness the critical edge that seeks to interrogate both the internal structures of manipulation and the external structures of domination. It is due to this compulsion that the common Dalits refuse to find a new political alternative and choose to pursue their recalcitrant leaders.

It is this curious relationship between the leaders and the led that explains the limits of Dalit politics in Maharashtra. Thus it is ``faith'' rather than reason that determines Dalit politics. It makes the common Dalits more dependent on their leaders and prevents them from launching any decisive attack on erring leaders. In such kind of politics where faith dominates reason, any kind of argument against the leaders becomes futile.

In fact, the leaders and their cadre take extra care to create the ``community of the faithful'' among the Dalits by reinvoking the importance of hero worship and the myth of charismatic qualities of particular Dali leaders. The common Dalits feel that they cannot provide a more competent and sophisticated argument than what their leaders do. The leaders perpetuate this servile attitude by deliberately using an abstract language. This construction of an elite image works everywhere in Tamil Nadu, Maharashtra and Uttar Pradesh and creates a rather degrading dependence, which necessarily denies both dignity and critical faculty to the thinking of the Dalits.

This lack of enlightenment among the Dalits leads to the legitimisation of Dalit politics which has become self-limiting as it eludes the question of Dalit emancipation. It also makes the Dalits willing partners in supporting their political leaders who lack an ability to offer an alternative vision of politics.

In this regard, it is important to offer a critical comment on the contemporary Dalit feminism in Maharashtra. The Dalit leaders in the State fail to articulate gender equality and are in no mood to confront the Dalit patriarchy.

The Dalit feminist confidence in such a leadership appears misplaced, if not misleading. However, a few feminists have maintained their distance from such leadership.

How can the Dalit leaders feel empowered when they feed on the political passivity of their common people on the issue of internal critique? The lack of internal critique also robs Dalit politics of its universal character of reaching out independently to other oppressed sections which are also in need of a fresh grass roots initiative entailing a new vision of the world based on the concept of truth.

Contemporary Dalit politics, therefore, seeks a definite political departure from Ambedkar, not realising or deliberately avoiding the need for an internal critique. Ambedkar, on the one hand, criticised the communists and the Congress leadership for their sociological blindness to an internal critique of the Hindu social order and, on the other, condemned the Hindu nationalists, who ridiculed and then opposed the need for any internal critique.

This kind of externally-looking Dailt politics, instead of providing a creative context for activism, becomes supplementary to the politics of hegemonic faces in one way or the other.

(The writer is Mahatma Gandhi Professor, Department of Politics and Public Administration, University of Pune). 

While the author has atleast attempted to analyse the situation honestly, I think the author has himself fallen into the same 'external looking' trap that he warns people against. IMHO what is required is for dalits to shed this persecution complex and grab the bull by horns. Demand better education - subsidies or what have you. Simply complaining about all and sundry is not going to cut it and living in a world where they allow missionary scumbags to frame their identity will push them into a paki-mindset of forever persecuted lowlies whose only purpose in life is to demand more from the rest. A dalit leader like Sri Ambedkar is absolutely required.

OTOH BJP and Sangh should multiply efforts to look for proper dalit leadership - backed with a "feel good" agenda for dalit betterment, rather then this 'genocide' bullcr@p coming out of missionary scumbags.

Dalits - Real Issues & Discussion - Guest - 04-22-2005

interesting interview. strange ideas - not sure how many actually hold these views..

QUOTEAn interview with CHANDRA BHAN PRASAD

Chandra Bhan Prasad is perhaps India's only dalit who gets to write a weekly column in a mainstream English newspaper, Pioneer. He also runs the Dalit Siksha Andolan and has emerged as one of the key spokespersons of the dalit movement in India. Chandra Bhan lives with his wife, Meera, in Delhi. Here, in this exhaustive interview, the intellectual shares his views with Siriyavan Anand, journalist-activist, on a wide range of issues that concern the dalit movement in India today. Anand is currently anthropologically examining brahmans and brahmanism having been born one. He is associated with Dalit Media Network, Chennai. The interview was conducted in the last week of February 2001; 30-plus questions were emailed and Chandra Bhan Prasad said he took four days to reply. (Please mail feedback to ands@ambedkar.org and meera5@vsnl.com)

SIRIYAVAN ANAND: How does it feel to be (perhaps) the sole English language dalit journalist in the country?

CHANDRA BHAN PRASAD: No. I am not a journalist in the classic sense of the term. I am at best a researcher, and an activist. But I write in the mainstream media. The column [Dalit Diary] in the English Daily, 'Pioneer', a paper now 137 years old which originated from Lucknow, is translated and used by the Telugu daily, 'Vaartha', and is the first Dalit column... so people tend to think that I am a journalist.

Yes, since I am the first and the only Dalit columnist in the English language press, I feel self-conscious and burdened with responsibilities â from a population of over 20.5 crore Dalits, which is more than the combined population of France, the UK and Germany, only one regular commentator in the Indian mainstream media. There is more to be researched, more to be commented upon, but a single-man army?

How did you come to be what you are now? Tell us about your childhood formation, your education, your politicisation... some definitive private and public moments that shaped your consciousness.

I was born in a sleepy village of district Azamgarh, east Uttar Pradesh, in September 1958. Both my parents were illiterate, but had sufficient agricultural land. From the history we know, the family was, by Dalit standards, economically well-to-do. My grandfather was a Police-Station Chaukidar who had six other brothers... most of them, you may describe as Social Rebels or Social Bandits.

My father was a wrestler, an acrobat, and an expert at the game of Lathi. He had three brothers. Two of them, after beating up landlords, had fled to Rangoon in early 1930s. They got some government job there, and had the first experience with currency. My father too had joined them, but that was the beginning of the World War II. Barring the eldest uncle at home, my father and two of his senior brothers joined Indian National Army. But they had to flee Burma after the Hiroshima bombing.

With the money they had earned in Rangoon, they built a huge house in 1935, and later bought land. Ours was the first brick-house [in the village], and when it was being built the local Zamindar had come requesting us to keep the height of the walls/roof below that of his own house. Since my father and uncles were musclemen, and going by family tradition â where each social snub was responded to violently â they raised the foundation even higher.

They all ensured education for their children, and the son of my eldest uncle became a postal clerk as early as in 1952. In my childhood, when I was probably in lower primary, say Class-II, I met with a serious accident, but survived. When I was in Class VI, my elder brother, who was the first child of my parents [I was the last, after three sisters], became a Sub-Inspector. He is now a Deputy SP posted in Lucknow, due to retire next month. Thus, I was extremely fortunate in the sense that my entire childhood, and youth, did not see poverty. Because of a sound economic background, I had the opportunity to study in JNU, where I did my MA in International Politics, MPhil on 'China's Technology Acquisition in the Post-Mao Era', and had enrolled for a Ph.D. project to study the 'Development of Science in Communist China'.

I have a CPI[ML] past in politics. I did my graduation in a college situated one km from our village... say, in my village college. In 1977, when I was in first year BA, Students Union elections were to take place. The upper castes and OBCs were against any Dalit standing for any of the posts. They had even thrown a challenge. I was very upset upon hearing this, and narrated the matter back home. My Dalit friends asked me to take up the challenge.

One of my cousins, who had secretly joined the CPI[ML], encouraged me to contest. And I decided to contest. The news spread like a wild fire. The CPI[ML] brother gathered his own armed squad, supported by the Dalits of the area, and I filed the nomination. I won, and my opponents lost deposits. I received great support from the girl students, most of them belonging to the upper castes, for two reasons. First, my niece was a BA final year student, so she could muster great support. Second, most my opponents were lumpen elements, who were disliked by the girl students. So they decided to back me. Some upper caste friends, afraid of an OBC onslaught, too supported me. Meanwhile, another cousin brother of mine, who was an Engineering student, too had joined CPI[ML]. There were lots of confrontations, and the CPI[ML] movement was gaining ground. I too joined the party. Thus, before coming to JNU, I was deeply involved with the CPI[ML] movement.

In JNU too, I continued with radical politics, but I was always fascinated by Dr Ambedkar. In JNU, I had the opportunity to read Ambedkar, and thus began arguing with my Comrades. There was already an SC/ST Students Welfare Association, in which I became active, and later became its Vice-President. My CPI[ML] comrades were supportive of the issues we were taking up, but never agreed with Dr Ambedkar's philosophy.

In the May 1983 JNU movement, I was at the forefront. In the movement, we were arrested. Some 600 JNU students, including some 200 women students, were put in Delhi's Tihar Jail. JNU was closed sine die, and no admissions took place for the 1983-84 academic session. An inquiry commission, headed by a retired High Court Judge, was instituted to probe the incidents of the May 1983 movement. Along with about 40 students, I too was rusticated for two years, in two cases. Like about a dozen students, I too didn't submit an apology. After rustication, we were given an option: either apologize and give an undertaking that we would not involve ourselves in any movement on the campus, or face action and vacate the university premises. Most [students] had apologized.

For three yeas, 1983-1987, I worked as a full-timer for CPI[ML] in UP. During that period, I thought that I was wasting my energy â I argued with my leaders why they were all the time against the Indian State, which is the only place where Dalits get some relief, and, in what way is Dr. Ambedkar less radical than Karl Marx? It was indeed amazing to hear them dismissing the Varna/Caste nature of society as a NON-FACTOR in Indian society. They didn't agree with me, and I got disillusioned, left the movement, came back to JNU, completed my MPhil, and enrolled for PhD.

But, during my three full-time CPI[ML] years, I had firsthand experience of revisiting the countryside. The pathetic condition of the average Dalit always haunted my mind. While I was back in JNU, I had no peace inside me. And then came Mandal. I was very skeptical about strengthening OBCs, upper segment in particular. I had seen them occupying the aggressive space being vacated by Dwijas from rural India. But, the anti-Mandal agitation had begun questioning Dalits' reservation as well. Then we jumped into, rather initiated, the pro-Mandal agitation in JNU, and Delhi. Dalits all over India supported the pro-Mandal agitation; in most cases, the Dalits were at the forefront.

I was restless within, and thus launched Dalit Shiksha Andolan in 1991. It spread in UP. Almost in each district. But then I thought by merely restricting the movement to scholarship and literacy-related issues, issues are not going to be resolved. The bigger question was about the model of development pursued so far, about changes taking place since 1950, and about history itself. And about Ideology. I sat down in Delhi, and began exploring all these...

Could you identify the central issues facing dalits today? Is it possible to see the dalit movement in a national/ pan-Indian sort of way at all, say like the hindutva movement?

Central question? We all know: land, quality education for all Dalits, democratisation of KNOWLEDGE, and public institutions including media, democratization of the capital, redefining democracy, etc. Unless English-speaking Dalits take up the Dalit movement as their profession, a pan-Indian Dalit movement will remain a dream.

Is it a strength or weakness of the dalit movement that there does not seem to be a pan-indian dalit consciousness, a national dalit political leadership? Do you think this is necessary or will it emerge/happen in the future? Other than Ambedkar the dalits do not seem to agree upon anyone as a leader/icon...

There is a pan-India Dalit consciousness â Dalits everywhere, illiterate or educated, hate the Chatur-Varna order; they want a change, want a democratic and egalitarian social order. But, it has to take an organized form, and that has not happened. That is a big weakness. Since there is no pan-India Dalit movement, there is no all India Dalit leadership. Kanshi Ram is there [BSP, UP], Dr Krishnaswamy [Puthiya Tamilagam, Tamilnadu] is there, but they need to transcend their boundaries.

How do you view the BAMCEF-BSP growth and subsequent developments in UP, Punjab and other neighbouring areas? Why does the Kanshi Ram-Mayawati duo seem to have not lived up to its promise? What next in UP, and what bearing/ lessons would that have for young dalit political parties that have come up in other states?

The creation of BAMCEF was a great, wonderful thing to happen. The BSP sprung from BAMCEF. Though BAMCEF elaborated the theory of BAHUJANWAD [the idea of the oppressed majority of 85% coming together], when BSP started practising politics, it attracted Dalits alone. Then and there BSP should have dropped Bahujanwad, and must have spoken of a Dalit movement. After Mayawati was attacked by the Shudras, the BSP should have realised that Shudras are the Dalits' prime opponents in rural India. No new Dalit party can now grow unless it talks of the Dalit movement and raises central questions haunting the community.

Ambedkar did say that capturing political power was important; but there does not seem to be any cultural-social agenda that dalit leaders/ parties seem to have evolved...

Political power is the master key which can open all the locks. That is what Ambedkar said, and this remains true even today. But without capturing political power, he did wonders. This, the Dalit leadership must realise â they must bring immediate benefits to the community, and create an articulate middle class and elite within the community which can handle political power. There is already a socio-cultural agenda, but that is yet to be theorized.

When the blacks in the US started asserting themselves (Black Power) and fought discrimination, it was accompanied by a renaissance in the cultural realm â art, literature, music... What similarities and differences do you see between the various black consciousness movements and the dalit movement here?

There are lots of similarities between Dalits' and Blacks' positioning in their respective societies. But there is marked difference between the conscience of the oppressors â here in India, the most radical NON-DALIT will be less progressive than the most conservative White in America. As you can see in my recent series on Affirmative Actions in America in the 'Pioneer' on Sundays, there in America, White society is talking of Democratizing Capital, and Affirmative Actions in ART, LITERATURE, TV, FILM etc. Is any Varna-Indian [caste hindu] talking of such things?

Early on, the US blacks put in place an institution like the NAACP (National Association for Advancement for Coloured People), had black churches, opened black schools and colleges and saw the need to rally around as a community... they even went on to have black-centred media, publishing, created distinct musical genres... even in terms of religion, there was/is the Nation of Islam. Do you think we need such efforts here? Are similar things possible, desirable in the dalit context? What about a National Association for Advancement of Dalit People to start with?

See, the NAACP had Whites too. If it happens in India, very good. It should happen. Unless there is Dalit bourgeoisie in India, there cannot be any effective alternative Dalit media, etc. You know, there are Black billionaires, several hundred Black millionaires in US, several hundred Black companies are publicly trading in America. In India, if things happen at the present rate, it may take another century for a Dalit to emerge as a billionaire!

Do you think we can compare race and caste-based disabilities? Is not what happens to dalits, especially in villages, a form of apartheid?

Yes, you are right.

Of late, efforts to get world bodies such as the United Nations to recognise caste as a source of discrimination (like race, gender) have had some success... How important are such moves for dalits in the country? Would such pressure finally matter? Can we get foreign nations to slap sanctions on India over the issue of casteism, especially as it relates to dalits?

This is a wonderful effort. Some NGOs are doing fantastic work in this direction. But, I think, unless Dalits themselves become organized enough to boycott the products of some companies, it will a very difficult task to get foreign nations slapping sanction on India. But this does not mean that we must not work in this direction.

A major drawback of the dalit movement has been the lack of visibility of dalit women's voices. In mainstream politics we have of course Mayawati, but in terms of intellectuals, academics, opinion-makers we hardly hear them... This of course is related to the larger problem of the invisibilising of dalitist ideas by savarnas; yet, don't you think the dalit movement should be simultaneously alive to the problem of dalit patriarchy? Should we not make conscious efforts to evolve a dalit-feminist praxis instead of postponing the issue of dalit women's liberation?

It is true that the Dalit movements have not given importance to the gender question. This has created roadblocks in the Dalit movements. But, I believe, it is not a conscious decision on the part of Dalit leadership to suppers the gender question. You see, unless there evolves an articulate middle class within Dalits, the gender question will remain a minor issue.

What is your opinion on 'hinduism', not just the hindutva variety, but... all types?

The overemphasis on 'Hinduism' or 'Hindutva' is dangerous. The moment you debate on the plank of 'Hindu' religiosity, the focus of the Dalit movement gets shifted, and in that case, instead of a Dalit raising a Dalit agenda, he is led to raise agenda of secularism, a ploy drafted by erstwhile Dvijas, who have converted to Christianity or Islam. To my mind, every so-called Hindu is 'Hindu' later; by his/her Varna/Caste a Brahman is a first a Brahman, loyalty to his community comes first. The same holds good for Kshatriyas, Vaishyas, Kammas, Reddies, Thevars, Chettiyars etc. No classical Hindu text knows the term 'HINDUTVA'. Thus, the issue is the annihilation of the Chatur-Varna Order, its system of privileges and discriminations. The upper-caste converted Minorities are trying to bluff Dalits by raising the bogey of 'Hinduism'.

Do we need to distinguish between 'good hindus' who dissociate themselves from the BJP-RSS-VHP brand of hinduism? Or are these 'good hindus' (who practise caste discreetly) more dangerous than the hindutva type?

A so-called Hindu is only bad. 'Hindus' cannot be good. When did the RSS/BJP/VHP etc. come into being? In the 20th century. Isn't it? But, what was society before that? Was it less cruel? Were not Dalits made to hang an earthen pot to their neck if they had to spit? Life then was worse than it was for animals. But, the so-called non-hindutva 'Hindus' glorify that period.

What do you think about the brahmanism/ hinduism of the communists?

Christianity didn't have the Varna Order, and nor did Islam. Both the religious system came to India with many good virtues, but the Chatur-Varna Order corrupted them. Similarly, Communism came with wonderful notions of equality, but the Chatur-Varna Order corrupted Communism as well. As recent history shows, the two organised groups â RSS and Communists â are more hostile to Ambedkarism than anybody else. In fact, between RSS and CPI-CPI[M], the latter are more dangerous as they don't believe in debate. You can abuse the RSS and still get away. But, the so-called Left will not leave you.

Your comments on the Kumbh Mela... Did you go there, or think of going there, out of mere curiosity? Women of course cannot splash in the nude at the Kumbh, but do north indian dalits figure in some way here? And what does one make of a buddhist like the Dalai Lama visiting the mela?

My parental place is less than 200 miles from Allahabad. I know, most of the Kumbh visitors are Shudras, poor Brahmans, and Sadhus etc. Few Dalits go there, a majority of them out of curiosity. I have never been there. The Dalai Lama is a Brahmanized Buddhist.

What kind of music do you listen to, what books do you read, what films do you like watching? Leading an urbanised life with modern amenities one is faced with a barrage of cultural-artistic representations which are hardly alive or attuned to subaltern concerns of the aesthetic. We are forced to consume what is around us but these tend to alienate us from our own moorings, however region-specific these moorings be. These male-savarna-created cultural practices even inferiorise dalits, poor muslims, women and other subaltern communities. Yet, we seem to partake in the process as choiceless consumers... How do you, as an insurgent dalit intellectual, come to terms with it?

I have very little time to spare for music or cinema. I generally watch news on TV. I sometimes like watching Discovery and National Geographic. Frankly speaking, I can't relate to mainstream art, music, cinema etc. as they all relate the lives of the Chatur-Varna Order. I find mainstream art as lifeless, rotten and static as life in the Chatur-Varna Order itself.

What have you registered yourself as in the Census? A buddhist? What should be the strategy of dalits vis-Ã -vis the Census? What is your position on caste count in the Census?

I was in Indore when they came to my house. Had I been there, I would have argued to be registered as a non-believer. But that is my personal choice. Now, the Census is over, so let us not waste time on that. I think we should not waste time on religious issues. What happened in Maharashtra? The entire energy went towards spreading Buddhism, and the Dalit movement suffered. We must focus on the present-day challenges. The question of the betterment of the community. Look which section of Dalit is talking of Buddhism â the educated, employed, and those financially better off through other means. So, whenever the community at large becomes economically better off, with very little effort they will choose Buddhism.

Do you believe in god? I mean, does the larger question of faith as a socio-political space interest you personally and/or in terms what it means to dalits?

I am a perfect non-believer; if at all I believe in any thing, these are Ambedkarism, Dalits' intelligence, democracy, science, and the Indian State. Call them my gods and goddesses.

Could this (question of faith) have been a problem that Periyar, because of his credo of atheism, failed to understand, especially as it concerned dalit spiritual-cultural practices? What do you think is the major faultline in Periyar's philosophy (if we can see it separately from the political legacy that the mainstream political parties in Tamilnadu claim to represent)?

As facts show, Periyar had launched an Anti-Brahman movement, and a movement against Brahmanism. He could probably not foresee that the Shudra once in power will become Ultra-Bramanical. That is why he targeted Brahmans alone, and not the Chatur-Varna Order. That one blunder eliminated the Dalit movement from the Tamil soil in the 20th Century. Unconsciously though, Periyar's movement has created a Social Monster in the form of Shudras. Tamil Nadu under the Dravida parties has the worst record in land reforms. While at the all-India level, out of every hundred SCs, 49 are landless agricultural labourers, in Tamil Nadu, it is 64. Since Shudras are in power, the Dalit movement in Tamil land has a tough task ahead.

You have been arguing that dalit-OBC unity is not possible, given that wherever an OBC movement has flourished (as in Tamilnadu, the Dravidian movement, or in Bihar now) the dalits have not been able to stand their ground. But culturally and in day-to-day habits don't you think there is more in common between the sudra-OBCs and the dalits?

I have never argued that 'Dalit-Shudra unity is not possible'. I have argued that the Dalit-Shudra unity, even if it takes place somewhere, should be stopped. You know, Shudras play with Dalit sentiments â they will point to the social monster called Brahmans, rob Dalits' support, come to power, and then turn to Dalits to oppress them. Every ruling group looks for subjects. And the Shudras, once in power, treat Dalits as subjects as they cannot treat Brahmans as subjects. Not only in Tamil Nadu, the entire South is a classic example. Land-labour relations in South are more undemocratic in the South than elsewhere in India. For instance, out of every hundred SCs in UP, 43 are cultivators, whereas in Tamil Nadu it is 15, Kerala 3, Karnataka 23, and Andhra Pradesh 13. Had OBCs captured power in UP, say 30 years ago, UP may have met the same fate.

I think there are more Brahmans who eat Beef and Pork than Shudras. I also think Shudras tend to have an increased intensity of religiosity than Brahmans. I think Shudras practice untouchability more vigorously than Brahmans today. Further, Shudras tend to use violent methods against Dalits more often than Brahmans do. To me, a violent form of aggression is the ultimate form of oppression. But I still believe an attempt should be made to unite with artisan Shudras.

Dalit-OBC unity may not be happening out there in the field... but do you think it is at least theoretically desirable? Can it be a long-term goal/ possibility?

Dalit-OBC unity is theoretically most undesirable, as the fruits of unity will go to Upper OBCs or Upper Shudras, who tend to practice Brahmanism of the medieval era. The Shudras' aim is to dislodge the Brahmans, and continue with the Chatur-Varna Order, while Dalits want to destroy the Order itself. So, when both the categories have different aims, where is the theoretical basis for unity?

You have even been suggesting that a brahman-dalit (political) alliance seems to be emerging (the BSP fielding brahman candidates). You even seem to think intellectually they can some together... But do you think a brahman and a dalit can ever come together physically, philosophically and spiritually; in marriage, living together, food habits...? Aren't they the opposite poles of the caste system?

See, Dalits will always differ with, or rather fight with Brahmans in the area of philosophy, ideology, culture, art, notions of life... in other words, on worldviews. This will go on for several thousand years. But since Dalits and Brahmans are both social minorities, both have a common enemy in Shudras. Thus, for their own different reasons, (Brahmans trying to retain their hold on urban assets and institutions, and Dalits trying to fulfil the basic needs of life) Dalits and Brahmans have no option but to come together politically in the near future, say by the second decade of this century. Suppose, there is an attempt by the State to redistribute land on the principle of LAND TO THE TILLER, who will be affected most: Shudras or Brahmans? And who will lose most â Shudras or Brahmans? Who will benefit most â Shudras or Dalits? To me, unless radical land reforms take place in India, Dalits can never, and should never, think of achieving freedom. And on the land question â the most crucial Dalit question today â the Dalits will be violently resisted by the Shudras.

Do you subscribe to the term 'bahujan' or the idea of 'oppressed majority' formulated by Phule and which has found contemporary rearticulation in Kancha Ilaiah's writings? Elaborate...

It is not the majority which is oppressed, it the minority, it is the Dalits. Do you think Shudra communities such as Thevars, Vanniyars, Chettiyars, Gaudas, Lingayats, Vokkaligas, Kammas, Reddies, Jats, Yadavs, Gujjars, Kurmis, Patels, Marathas are oppressed communities? When Phule talked of uniting with Shudras, the Shudras then were only the social police of the Brahmans; they were tenants. Today, they own land, most of the rural assets and institutions. They have a fair share in the media, cinema, and urban assets as well. All the four chief ministers in the South are of Shudra origin, including the CMs of Maharashtra, Gujarat, Rajasthan, Punjab, Haryana, Bihar. Thus, ten major States are ruled by Shudra Chief Ministers. What is the condition of Dalits in these States?

Kanch Ilaiah is a Shudra scholar. He targets Dalits sentiments. Tells them that Brahmans are the creators of the Chatur-Varna Order, that they developed the notion of untouchability. And therefore, they must be destroyed. Dalits tend to get emotionally moved. But, he never says that it is not the Brahman, it is the Brahmanical Order which has to be destroyed. He never says that upper Shudras are turning more Brahmanical than Brahmans themselves. He never tells what is the performance of Shudra governments in the South and elsewhere. He never tells us what the Thevars do to Dalits in Tamil Nadu, or Kammas and Reddies do in Andhra Pradesh.

Ilaiah, foregrounding his position as an OBC, has talked about the need to dalitise the nation as a challenge to savarna cultural hegemony. Do you think it is possible/ okay to identify something like 'dalit' culture as a distinct category? Or does that amount to essentialising...

In fact, Kancha is drafting an intellectual trap to Shudraise the nation's culture. Dalits and Shudras differ culturally as much as Dalits and Brahmans do. Shudras and Brahmans are culturally more close to each other than Shudras and Dalits. Dalits are a distinct social category, and so is there culture.

If you reject Ilaiah's diagnosis of brahmanic hinduism and his positing the need for dalitisation of the savarnas, including the OBCs, what cultural alternative must we pose to the 'brahmanic' model, especially in the context of the pressure on dalits and other subaltern communities who, while coming to enjoy the benefits of urban modernity, are forced to 'brahmanise'. What can be done to prevent the proliferation of what some dalit intellectuals have identified as the 'dalit brahman'? How do we get dalits to be proud of being dalit?

Dalits have a distinct culture. But we should not glorify it. Neither do we want Brahman/Shudra culture. We want European culture, which is the best. When West's economic model is turning out to be the standard model for most nations, why not their culture? Every Dalit who is happy today, it is because he is westernised. With which culture was Dr. Ambedkar more close to? Was it not western? In fact, if you examine minutely, Dalits are culturally more close to western culture than cultures anywhere.

Is there a need to distinguish between the 'harijan' and the dalit, in the sense of the latter being a politicised/ intellectually aware, responsible person. But what do we do with 'harijans' like Bangaru Laxman, Ajit Jogi, Paswan, Meira Kumar, or similar figures who occupy the academia, media and opinion-making sections of society? In other words, how should we view dalits who want to efface/ disavow their dalitness? I feel savarna intolerance is to be blamed to a large extent for this situation... Don't you think this problem, of what the brahman sociologist M N Srinivas conveniently termed 'sanskritisation', will remain as long as we do not provide a meaningful alternative? Can such an alternative be built by fusing the positive elements of dalit cultures and those of western modernity (meaning concepts of liberty, equality and fraternity)?

Let us not condemn Dalit leaders. It will serve no purpose. In that case, we will land up calling [President K R] Narayanan also a 'harijan'. When Dr. Ambedkar had joined Pandit Nehru's Cabinet, he too was criticised by many Dalits.

The alternative is there, in the last sentence of your question. Fusion. Yes, fusion of the positive elements of Dalit culture â which is yet to be theorized â and the modernity of the western culture. M N Srinivas suffered from the same inferiority complex which Arun Shourie suffers from today. Shourie is under great civilisational pressure: why was no Brahman suitable / good enough to write the Constitution of the Indian Republic, which regulates the affairs of the State, and also of society. He, therefore, went on to artificially prove that Dr Ambedkar had only a minor role in drafting the Law Book. Srinivas sensed that the new Brahmans' modern [westernized] culture is more closer to Dalits â man-woman relationships, sex patterns, non-vegetarianism etc. â and therefore instead of admitting that Brahmans are picking things from Dalit culture, he went on to artificially prove that Dalits are aping Brahmans!

What is your position on the participation of nondalits in dalit struggles? Till now, the savarnas have been interested in dalit issues only in a patronising gandhian way, without attacking the varna system. Should not nondalits underplay themselves in terms of visibility/ outspokenness, and try to be mere facilitators...?

Dalits have always welcomed non-Dalits in their struggles. But, as you seem to suggest, they should be more as facilitators than claiming leadership roles.

Don't you think the intellectual responsibility of nondalits who (in whatever way) approach dalit identity issues should be to address those nondalits who are wilfully unalive to the problems posed by caste and their own implicatedness in the caste system?

You are right. They should educate their own people, they should critique their past, their vision, their culture, and their intellect.

How should dalit intellectuals, especially historians, look at history? Recently Gopal Guru has argued that the dalits have no nostalgia; what they remember is 'only the history of humiliation and exploitation'. Your comments.

Gopal is right. I largely agree with him. But I would like to add one thing: Dalits must look at history, rather write history of non-Dalits from a Dalit perspective. That will help Dalits as there is continuity of the doctrine of exclusion. Untouchability was nothing but a doctrine of exclusion where Dalits were denied all rights, access to wealth and institutions. Dalits can conclusively prove that Romila Thapar practices that doctrine. So did Bipan Chandra. The Department of History in JNU grew under the shadow of Bipan and Romila. But, they did not allow a single Dalit to become a teacher. They threw constitutional provisions into the dustbin. Today, the same Romila Thapar talks of defending the Constitution. So is the performance of Sumit Sarkar. These historians have distorted history; and in terms of vision, they are closer to the Sangh Parivar. They have the same view of British Imperialism that the Sangh Parivar propagates. To the Dalits, the coming of British gave great relief...

Isn't the intellectual liberation of nondalits, starting with the brahmans, important for dalit liberation? Can a dalit struggle take place independent of the emancipation of all castes? Isn't it necessary to dialogue with the oppressors, though the possibilities of such a dialogue â a scenario where a brahman listens to dalits and is willing to change â seem remote right now. Where and how do we start, given that dalit consciousness and brahman revivalism seem to be happening simultaneously?

We must be clear in what we mean by DALIT LIBERATION. Dalits have to first and foremost cross the transition phase: that no Dalit remains as landless agricultural labourer, no Dalit remains uneducated, Dalits have a fair representation in English medium schools, higher education, a fair representation in public institutions, several hundred of Dalits as millionaires, their housing issues are resolved, they have access to good healthcare etc. Only after these basic questions are resolved, Dalits can think of the battle for complete emancipation. It is wrong to sell a dream which is not likely to be achieved. This abstraction of Dalit struggles is dangerous as it dilutes the immediate agenda of the community.

Yes, Dalits must convincingly tell nondalits that they too are in the bondage of the Chatur-Varna Order. Nondalits' intellectual emancipation is very important, for unless they undergo emancipation, Social Democracy can be accomplished. It is extremely necessary to tell Brahmans that once Shudras capture political power at the all-India level, the first thing they would do is destroy democratic institutions. Then, the Shudras will unleash SOCIAL FASCISM in India, which will not harm Dalits alone; Brahmans too will face humiliation.

The real danger of revivalism of Brahmanism rests with Shudras, and the Brahmans will be the immediate victims of Brahmanism.

Brahmans cannot revive their medieval oppressive system, nor the medieval-type dominance. Yes, the real danger of revivalism of Brahmanism rests with Shudras, and the Brahmans will be the immediate victims of Brahmanism. Dalits can still withstand that revivalism, as they already undergone that experience. But Brahmans will collapse, will be totally shattered. Therefore, they should join the Dalits' battle for land reforms. The only way Brahmans can escape the Shudras menace is to democratise land-labour relationships, followed by achieving social democracy. If the land-labour relationship is democratised, Shudras will lose their clout. But, unless Brahmans decide to share urban assets and institutions, Dalits can't save Brahmans from their sure downfall. If Brahmans do not take the initiative, they will be finished in the coming fifty years.

During a talk in Hyderabad in January you talked about how a 'progressive-leftist' journal like the Economic and Political Weekly (EPW) refused to publish your article. But they allowed a nondalit, Aditya Nigam, to theorise on the epistemology of the dalit critique. Would you like to throw more light on this? Is this related to the larger problem of the hypocrisy of savarnas of all hues â marxists, feminists, secular-liberals, antimodernists (like Nandy, Kakar, Kishwar), postmodernists, and the hindutva-wadis?

A Savarna is always a Savarna. He is not a Marxist, he is not a secularist. He is not a liberal. Ideological divisions such as Marxist, Socialist, Liberal or Rightist are all artificial divisions. Is The Hindu/Frontline group of papers owned by an official Rightist? How many Dalits have a regular column in Hindu/Frontline? I can give hundreds of instances where Left/Secularists are University VCs, but have they implemented the Constitution in appointing Dalits in teaching positions? There used to be a good lobby of Left artists in Hindi cinema â but did they ever launch a movement to include Dalit art and Dalit artists in Hindi Cinema? There is still a big secular lobby in Bollywood; but has it ever made an attempt to democratize the film world? There are a host of Left/Secular columnists in mainstream media. But have they ever sought to improve Dalit presence in field of journalism?

EPW is just the other face of Organiser (RSS journal).

Right or Left, both the arms belong to the same body, serve the same body, are guided by the same brain. We must be able to understand this situation.

Yes, when Brahmans are cornered, then they look for allies. That is what happened in UP, when in order to escape subjugation at the hands of Shudras, they approached BSP, and made Mayawati the chief minister twice. Likewise, when we strip the Brahman intelligentsia naked, and parade them on the intellectual streets of India, they will need some patch of cloth for cover â then they will look towards Dalits to turn saviors!

There's been great confusion over how the dalits should understand and react to the formulations of the Narmada Bachao Andolan and its spokespersons, Medha Patkar and Arundhati Roy. How should we critique their gandhian-environmentalism without undermining the larger issues that concern the dam-affected?

NBA is known as Patidar's [an equivalent of Thevars in Tamil Nadu, or Kammas of Andhra Pradesh] Land Bachao Andolan [PLBA] in the Valley, Rehabilitation Andolan in Delhi, and Save Environment Movement in London and elsewhere in Europe. NBA talks of Gandhism, it opposes modernity. It glorifies the past, in the same manner as the RSS does. For the Dalits, the past was more cruel, local institutions are more oppressive. Modernity has given Dalits some relief. NBA is supported by bored house-husbands/ bored housewives of Savarnas, and its cadres are the spoilt brats of the urban elite. Arundhati Roy and Medha Patkar represent the most ugly face of the Brahman world.

Some dalit and OBC spokespersons have been talking about the liberatory potential of globalisation/ liberalisation for dalits/ subaltern groups, arguing that it would be easier to deal with a professional capitalist like John Welch (GE chairperson) than with an unprofessional baniya-capitalist like Rahul Bajaj. Do you agree? They is also a demand for reservation in the private sector? Will this be possible? How should dalits handle globalisation?

Globalization/liberalization must be seen in a particular social/political context. In the Indian context, most ideas, institutions, which come from the West, howsoever ill-intended they may be, in the end, benefit those who are outside the Chatur-Varna Order, namely Dalits and Adivasis. I totally agree with the view that it is easier to deal with Johns but difficult to deal with Bajajs.

The anti-globalization drive has been launched by the Sangh Parivar and the mainstream Left, whom I call the Domesticated Left. For, both are ultra-nationalists.

But here I have one problem, which is different in nature, and which neither Left and nor the Sangh would agree, for, both have an amazingly high degree of contempt for the Indian State. My problem is this: globalization/liberalization is inseparably linked to privatization. As I have stated earlier, any Dalit who has some smile on his face, is better-dressed, better-housed, is so because he is serving or has served under institutions of the State â be it a Class-IV employee, an Engineer/Doctor/ Civil Servant or a legislator. The few Dalits who are abroad, in the US or UK in particular, must have some indirect connection with the Indian State â their parents, relatives or friends. Thus, if the institutions run by the State get privatized, where will Dalits go? This question has always haunted me. Look at the condition of Muslims! Within fifty years, where have they gone, those who once ruled for over six hundred years?

Today, nine major Indian states are being headed by Shudra Chief Ministers. The Shudra parties like DMK, TDP, RJD, SP, JD, Shiv Sena, Akali Dal, Chautala's Lok Dal, etc. seems to have entered into agreements with Dwija parties like Congress and BJP. The agreement is â 'Don't raise the question of Land Reform, we will not oppose privatization'. Likewise, Dalit parties should tell Dwijas, 'Your game will be over within 50 years. Shudras will finish you politically. Then your hold over urban assets and institutions will be over. So, align with us, as Shudras want to treat us as their subjects. And, therefore, support us in a new phase of Land Reforms, give us our share in private sector â in both capital and jobs, and in public institutions. Then, we can support you in redefining Mandal reservation, which must go to artisan Shudras.'

Something like this can be done. Only then can the larger Dalit mass benefit.

What about computers and the hype over information technology? Where do dalits stand in the context of such virtual, air-conditioned, anti-sweat labour? What must be their strategy?

Few Dalit individuals apart, Dalit masses stand nowhere. Out of every 100 SC (1991 Census), 63, and in case of STs 70, are illiterate. By 2001 Census, it may at the most come down to 50 for SC/STs put together. How many of them are educated above matric? To me, not more than 5 per cent. How many of them are English-literate? Maybe 0.001 per cent. Those who are English literate, and have education above 12th standard? Maybe 0.0001 per cent. And how many of them own PCs? May be 0.00001 per cent or much less than that! Thus, there is a very clear danger of IT becoming another Sanskrit. While we should welcome the IT revolution, we must demand our due share in it.

What is your position on conversions? Since reservation in the public sector hardly matters given that government jobs are shrinking, and being counted as a 'hindu dalit' has no social benefits whatsoever, do you see the possibility of dalits embracing new religions â islam, christianity or buddhism â if these faiths offer them not just dignity and respect but also tangible material benefits like education, jobs... What threat does this pose to localised dalit spiritual traditions, faith-spaces?

If there is any Dalit who 'feels' that he/she is a 'Hindu', then he/she must immediately switch over to any other religion, preferably Buddhism. This could an ideal position. But will this kind of conversion lead to emancipation as well, spiritual or material? What is our experience? Those who switched over to Christianity, turned into 'Dalit-Christian', those who embraced Sikhism, became 'Dalit-Sikh', those who sought Islam became 'Dalit Muslims' and those who converted to Buddhism, are called Neo-Buddhists, equivalent of 'Dalit-Buddhist'. The Dalit intelligentsia must rely more on its intelligence, genius, than on emotion, and try to find out why even after changing one's religion, a Dalit continues to be identified with his/her earlier identity.

Those who have a clearer idea of the Chatur-Varna Order, or the Caste System, must keep this basic fact in mind â that, there is no Varna or Caste, in the traditional Chatur-Varna Order, without an OCCUPATIONAL identity, and vice-versa. Thus, unless a Dalit changes his/her occupation, which is historically imposed on him/her, and chooses an occupation, or is caused to choose one, no real emancipation can occur. Since conversions are not necessarily accompanied by a change in occupation, he/she continues to be identified with his/her traditional occupation and Dalit identity, and thus turns into DALIT-CHRISTIAN, DALIT-SIKH, DALIT MUSLIM, NEO-BUDDHIST etc.

Today, all those Dalits who have some respect [respect in the relative sense of the term, for instance, the status of a Dalit who is an Engineer, and status of a Dalit who remains a cobbler] in society, are so because of change of occupation. Thus, if a Dalit (who remains a so-called Hindu) becomes a clerk in Railways or Postal Department, or a schoolteacher, or even a peon in Collectorate, he/she is more respected than a Dalit who remains a landless agricultural labourer but becomes Christian or a Buddhist . Thus, keeping this experience in mind, the Dalit energy, or the Dalit movement should address the basic material/ educational question of the community, and try to dismantle the relationship between traditional OCCUPATON and Caste.

But, then one can easily tell Mr Prasad, "A Dalit who has become a clerk, and converts to Christianity or Buddhism, is still called Dalit-Christian or a Neo-Buddhist. That means, his/her occupational transformation has not helped him/her." My answer to this kind of question simple: There are two individuals â one a Bangladeshi billionaire, and the other an American pauper. At first instance, one would tend to weigh the American pauper more than the Bangladeshi billionaire; for, the Bangladeshi billionaire is identified with the average condition of Bangladeshis and the American pauper with the average condition of Americans, who are better-off. Thus, those Dalits, who are in Civil Services, or those who have migrated to America or UK, will always be identified with their social roots. Therefore such sections of Dalits, instead of raising emotive issues, or issues abstract in nature, must concern themselves with ground realities and raise fundamental issues of their less fortunate brothers and sisters â land, quality education, employment, business and trade, participation in public institutions, question of atrocities etc.

Dalits - Real Issues & Discussion - Guest - 04-23-2005

Curiously, Congress govt. led by Sonia did not oppose the move. It sounded like an open invitation for christian govt.'s to go ahead with conversions under the pretext of human rights for dalits.

http://www.telegraphindia.com/1050423/asp/...ory_4651429.asp

Global eye on caste bias
KAY BENEDICT
New Delhi, April 22: Caste discrimination in India has come under international glare.

Thanks to relentless campaigning by the International Dalit Solidarity Network and the National Campaign on Dalit Human Rights, the UN has decided to appoint two special rapporteurs to investigate discrimination based on work and descent.

The move by the UN Commission for Human Rights, the first ever, will bring solace to some 170 million Dalits. The commission feels caste discrimination should be brought under human rights.

The rapporteurs (who report) have been asked to prepare a study on discrimination and submit a preliminary report to the sub-commission on promotion and protection of human rights. They would then have to give a progress and a final report.

In its Tuesday meeting in Geneva, the sub-commission adopted a resolution approving the appointment of the two representatives, Yozo Yokota and Chin-Sung Chung.

The move comes in the wake of an international consultation in Kathmandu last year. The Kathmandu Dalit Declaration lists measures to be taken not only by governments, the UN and development agencies, but also the private sector, trade unions and international financial institutions.

The UN sub-commission will undertake a three-year study led by the rapporteurs. Draft guidelines would then be put together to eliminate discrimination based on work and descent, said Arun Khote of the national campaign.

Its general secretary Vincent Manoharan, who campaigned in Geneva, said: âThis is a belated victory in the internationalisation of the plight of Dalits.â

He said he welcomed the stance of the Indian government, which âdid not stand in the way of the passing and adoption of this resolutionâ.

The move will help end caste and related forms of discrimination not only in India but also Bangladesh, Japan, Senegal and Nigeria.

Some 260 million people globally are deprived of basic rights by such forms of discrimination.

The resolution urged the UN secretary-general and the UN high commissioner for human rights to provide the special rapporteurs all the necessary assistance.

It authorised the rapporteurs to seek the co-operation of and collaboration with relevant treaty bodies and UN organs, agencies and mandates, including the committee on the elimination of racial discrimination, xenophobia and related intolerance, International Labour Organisation and the Unesco.

It urged that necessary constitutional, legislative and administrative measures, including appropriate forms of affirmative action and public education programmes, be put in place to prevent and redress discrimination based on work and descent.

Such measures should be respected and implemented by all state authorities at all levels, it added.

Dalits - Real Issues & Discussion - Guest - 04-23-2005

Unitarian Universalist Association of Congregations and ChristianAid sponsors Macwan, IDSN and NCDHR. See earlier posts for details.

Dalits - Real Issues & Discussion - Guest - 04-23-2005

http://www.doccentre.org/eldoc/l18_/hindutva_wcar.htm

QUOTEÂ Â South Asia Analysis Group

Â Â 05. 09. 2001

Â Â Â

Â Â POLITICS OF RACE AND CASTE: we do not need the UN to solve our internal problem

Â Â by R. Upadhyay

Â Â To have a meaningful understanding of the on going debate on inclusion of Caste in the agenda of UN sponsored WCAR(World Conference Against Racism), it is better to analyse this move of the NGOs in the historical background of the growing awareness of Human Rights.Â Although the origin of the racist thinking cannot be fully traced, the idea of the superiority of the white race over all others is consciously or unconsciously linked with the initial notion prevailing among some of the intellectuals of Caucacian race of Europe, that their race was ordained by God to rule over other inferior (?) races.Â This notion got a further boost after the overseas expansion of the Western European Countries and the colonial powers, which used racial discrimination against the so-called inferior races.Â With the passage of time and conceptualisation of rational thinking at intellectual level, some sections of people started realising the need for ethical values of life and the very concept of racial superiority became a debatable point.Â The post World War intellectual turbulence following the atrocities committed by Axis Powers against ethnic and political minorities and slaughter of Jews at the hands of the GermansÂ gave the lie to the concept that "all human beings are born free and equal".Â Subsequently with the emergence of United Nations Organisation (UNO), one of the major goals under its charter was to promote and encourage respect for human rights and fundamental freedoms for all people, regardless of race, sex, language, or religion.Â It adopted a Universal Declaration of Human Rights on December 10, 1948 and held an International Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Racial discrimination in 1965.Â Later, it also set up a committee to review and monitor Racial Discrimination all over the world.Â India became a party to this convention after signing it in 1968.

Â Â However, even after the breakup of colonial empires, forces hostile to the indigenous Indian civilisation with their Euro-centric imperialistic cultural designs remained active with an objective to disintegrate the Hindu society particularly after the Hindu revival movement in post-colonial India.Â With their clout among the political authorities in Western Powers and also within Indian polity, they promoted the NGOs to work for their mission.Â The on going debate to include caste discrimination in the agenda of the World Conference Against Racialism (WCAR in Durban from August 31) is therefore, viewed by the nationalist forces in the country as an attempt to alienate the Scheduled Castes and Scheduled Tribes from the Hindu society.

Â Â In the light of the convention referred to, some of the NGOs particularly those claiming to be the champions for Dalit's cause in India both at national and international level became active.Â Their attempt to bring the Scheduled Castes and Scheduled Tribes within the purview of racial discrimination was to promote the design of Euro-centric forces to impose their religious and cultural exclusivism on scheduled castes, which could be possible only if they succeed in disintegrating the Hindu society.

Â Â Despite the determined stand of the government that caste-based discrimination is an "internal" matter of India, DalitÂ activists associated with NGOs made it a point to globalize the issue with an argument that caste based discrimination and racial bias are the two sides of the same coin.Â They have "charged the government with drawing the saffron curtain over the issue of human rights within the country".Â They are not even convinced with the theory of well-known social anthropologist like Andre Beteille, who said, "treating caste as a form of race is politically mischievous and scientifically nonsensical".Â Citing the ineffectual attempts made in the past to identify and define race in India, Beteille says, "I am now convinced that identifying the races in the population of India will be an exercise in futility..."Â Beteille further said: "We cannot throw out the concept of race by the front door when it is being misused for asserting social superiority and bring it again through the back door to misuse it in the cause of the oppressed" ( "Race and Caste", The HINDU, March 10, 2001)

Â Â Contrary to the view of social anthropologists and the stand of Government of India that caste system in this country is beyond the spirit of anti-racial movement, the Committee to Review and Monitor the Racial Discrimination, which is empowered to interpret the spirit of the convention rejected them in its meeting held in August 1996.

Â Â Emboldened with the report of the Committee to Review and Monitor the Racial Discrimination all over the world, Dr. Ambrose Pinto, executive director of the New Delhi-based Indian Social Institute (An outfit of Roman Catholic Church) said, "The U.N. needs to change the title of the Conference in such a way as to include caste discrimination".Â Martin Macwan, national convener of the National Campaign for Dalit Human Rights also supported his views.

Â Â Ignoring the views of the Dalit Movement activists, the External Affairs Minister Jaswant Singh in his inaugural speech in the first meeting of the NCWCR in New Delhi on February 7 said, "We are strongly opposed to all such attempts. We must ensure that the Conference does not lose sight of its focus on racism."Â Abid Hussein, a member of the NCWCR also said: "Caste-based discrimination and racial discrimination are evils.Â It is important to eradicate them from society.Â But it is not fair to take the Conference as the venue for fighting caste-based discrimination.Â One must remember that it is not a conference on taking up every kind of discrimination prevalent in society."

Â Â Taking advantage of the draft declaration of WCAR, the self styled champions for Dalit's cause launched an aggressive campaign against the stand of Government of India on this issue and got the support of their fellow travellers in media, academicians and political parties.Â Eduardo Failario pointed out in the Rajya Sabha that "India has its own constitutional remedies for the ills of casteism but it does not prevent us from receiving global solidarity to address this multinational problem as we do in the case of other global issues like child labour, women, ecology, AIDS and Human Rights" (Indian Express dated August 24, 2001).Â But how far the global solidarity at the cost of diluting the spirit of the sovereignty of the nation will help the Dalits of the country is a million dollar question.Â Equating caste discrimination with AIDS etc is something, which is apparently not based on sound logic.

Â Â Every country has its own social problems, which are required to be resolved within the framework of the prevalent laws of the land.Â If insurgency, terrorism, and other social evils like dowry and illiteracy could be tackled with the help of constitutional provisions, why should caste discrimination be discussed in an international forum? Can we discuss the logic of reservation for Dalits and OBCs in Government jobs, legislature and academic institutions, which may come within the preview of Human Right violation - in international forum? In the name of global solidarity, India cannot place its sovereignty in international forum for scrutiny.Â The argument of the Dalit Rights activists that "The culture of Dalits cannot be equated with the dominant caste culture" shows their poor knowledge about Vedic culture, where there was no caste discrimination.Â Even Dr. B.R.Ambedkar, the founder of Dalit Movement in India said, " In spite of the composite make-up of the Hindu population, there is a deep cultural unity and caste is a parceling into bits of a larger cultural unit"(Organiser dated September 2, 2001).

Â Â The UNO achieved considerable success in its fight against colonialism and apartheid. But ironically, even after over half a century of its existence it continues to be a play ground of not only the western powers but also of the powerful forces behind the western cultural movements, that are engaged in imposing their faith on the weaker sections of third world population.Â It had also affected the effectiveness of the UNO to promote its real agenda and as a result the Universal Declaration of Human Rights hardly achieved any positive visible effect on its member countries.

Â Â Governments with questionable human rights records, such as China, criticize the UN?s attempts to promote human rights, saying that such actions interfere with their internal affairs.Â The Arab World in its fight against the Jews repeatedly denounced Zionism as a "tool of imperialism".Â It got the support of some super power in its attempt to utilize the UN forum and accordingly succeeded in pursuing the latter to adopt a resolution in 1975 equating Zionism with racism.Â Even though the General Assembly voted 111 to 25 for its repeal in 1991, the Arab World has not given up its efforts and again pursued the NGOs for inclusion of Zionism in the draft declaration of WCAR.Â The Zionists on their part maintained that their movement was never against the Arab?s right of self-determination but they have been defending the right of Jewish people for their national liberation.Â Presently Zionism is based on the principles of autonomy and safety of the state of Israel and the right of any Jew to settle there to provide the guarantee of a Jewish nationality to any Jew in need of it.Â With this conviction, Israel took a strong stand and threatened to boycott its participation in WCAR if the latter forced to include Zionism in its agenda.Â USA also supported Israel on this issue.

Â Â On the other hand India appears to be the only country in the world, which hardly sends a strong protest against the issue detrimental to its sovereignty.Â Even though Government of India did not agree for inclusion of caste in the draft declaration of WCAR, it did not react in the manner Israel had reacted.Â Unfortunately even the sociologists or the media did not come forward to counter the aggressive voices raised by the NGOs for discussing the domestic issue at international forum effectively.Â Such soft attitude of the Government encouraged the NGOs in the roll of foreign funding agencies to internationalise its domestic issues.

Â Â Caste discrimination particularly untouchability in Hindu society was one of the major concerns of the Government in the post-colonial India.Â The Indian constitution therefore, made ample provisions to guard against this social evil.Â The Supreme Court, Human Right Commission, Scheduled Caste Commission have all reviewed various laws enacted by parliament and reservation for Scheduled Castes and Scheduled Tribes in the governance of the country as well as in educational institutions and a number of other measures adopted by the Government.Â But instead of educating the discriminated section of Indian population to avail the opportunity provided by the Government, the Dalit Rights activists work as a tool in the hand of the forces of vested political and personal interests.Â Even the affluent section from amongst the Dalits come under the influence of the foreign funded NGOs and exploit their own people for their political and personal interest.

Â Â According to a newspaper report 46 NGOs in India are accredited to WCAR.Â Most of them are known to be associated with Dalit movements in the country.Â Despite the known stand of anthropologists and sociologists that caste cannot be equated with race, these self-styled NGOs working for Dalits cause maintain, "caste discrimination is racism".Â In India there are number of castes and sub castes belonging to the same race and there has been discrimination even within the various sub sects of Dalits due to a number of factors like political, social and sectorial.Â There are instances of fight within the Dalits for garnering the benefits being provided by the Government to them.Â The on going caste consolidation for sharing political power is another important factor for caste tension in the country, though it has no similarity with the caste discrimination as it was before Independence.Â Social segregation of different castes and sub castes does not mean any discrimination against each other.Â It is more or less a segregation of different clans, which is prevalent in some form or other in different parts of the world.Â Therefore, if caste discrimination is discussed in present context, it may open a floodgate to globalise the domestic issues, which are against the concept of national sovereignty.

Â Â How the Varnashram Dharma (professional units) of Hindu society got transformed into birth rooted caste system and denied social hierarchy to some of its segments (belonging to same race) may be a debatable issue but it cannot be equated with racial discrimination.Â The historical onslaught on Hindu society and the errors committed by it might have polluted the indigenous Vedic social order, which had no caste discrimination as Euro-centric historians project it.Â But the post-colonial Governments have been serious in their efforts to correct such errors by providing an opportunity to the socially discriminated castes for their social, educational and economic upliftment.Â It may take a long time but the move in the right direction.Â The stand of the NGOs in raising their voices for discussion of caste discrimination in an anti-racial conference of WCAR is therefore, not based on sound logic.Â On the other hand it gives credence to the allegation that their main objective is a move to discredit the Government and garner foreign funds from the international agencies in the name of Dalit's cause.

Â Â Outwardly the activities of the NGOs working for Dalit's cause may look quite rational but in the absence of any specialized agency at Government level to scrutinize their behind the scene objective and the alleged misuse of the huge amount of foreign funds being received by them gives an impression that their intention may not be as pious as they claim.Â Their aggressive campaign in the present context is a pointer that the move is not simply an event but a part of an agenda to isolate the Scheduled Castes and Scheduled Tribes from Hindu society and create social disorder as alleged by the Hindu nationalist forces in the country.

Â Â By and large, a number of the NGOs in India accredited to the UNO and associated with Dalit Movement, are said to be a part of the Christian Movement- sponsored Liberation Theology.Â With huge amounts of foreign funds at their disposal, the main task of the social activists associated with Church institutions like Indian Social Institute, William Carries and others are to alienate the ?Dalits? from the cultural mainstream of the country and provide an opportunity to their masters to convert them to Christianity.Â Their support to the move of the NGOs justifies the allegation.Â John Dayal, Secretary General, All India Christian Council said, "The main thing here is to get international exposure for the issue of caste" (Frontline in its issue dated August 31, 2001).Â The Christian missionaries in India have been demanding reservation for Dalit Christians like the Hindu Dalits but the Government has rejected it on the ground that the concept of caste discrimination has no relevance in Christian society.Â An impression is gaining ground that these foreign funded NGOs are the safe houses of the lobbyists, who are working for various international agencies engaged in destroying the cultural heritage of the country. Unfortunately, the media has hardly taken any interest to look into the allegations deeply and bring out the truth.Â Instead it is simply projecting the views of the NGOs without any scrutiny.Â This has therefore, created an adverse impact on the credibility of the media.

Â Â ?Human Rights Watch?, a Washington-based organization flashed an uncalled for notes to Government of India before the commencement of WCAR that "it should establish a programme and timetable to enforce the abolition of untouchability" ( Economic Times dated August 29, 2001 ) Any patriotic citizen and nation with self respect should have sent a strong protest against the notes of Human Rights Watch, as it is an interference in the domestic affairs of the country but the issue was raised in parliament with the support of some of the political parties, which encouraged the NGOs in India to raise their voices aggressively against the Government.Â The event has therefore, created an impression that these NGOs are playing into the hands of the forces, that are trying to internationalise the domestic issue of India, which is contrary to the spirit of national sovereignty The history of the denial of opportunities to the Dalits and their exclusion from all social, political and economic institutions is gradually losing its relevance due to the awareness of various Governmental and non-Governmental institutions.

Â Â The NGOs responsible for raking up the on going controversy have only contributed to rise of social tension without any visible benefits to the Dalits.Â Their Dalit movement is primarily a move to pressurise the Government to provide reservation benefits to the Dalit Christians with the main objective to disintegrate the Hindu society and fulfil the task to bring Asia under the "grace of Jesus in third millennium".Â Propounding the concept of liberation theology the cultural lobby of the west helped the western super powers to put a break on communist movement.Â The present move is to counter the rise in spiritual movement being helped by the Hindu revivalist forces.Â People of the country in general and Government in particular are therefore, required to be careful against the nefarious designs of the forces responsible to create social disorder in Indian society.

Â Â (The analysis is based on the personal perception of the writer. E-mail: ramashray60@ yahoo.com)

Dalits - Real Issues & Discussion - Guest - 05-14-2005

http://www.iht.com/articles/2005/05/12/opi.../eddattaray.php

QUOTEIndia: An international spotlight on the caste system
Sunanda K. Datta-Ray International Herald Tribune

FRIDAY, MAY 13, 2005
NEW DELHI India's 170 million Dalits, formerly called Untouchables, rejoiced recently when a high government official was arrested for hurling caste-related abuse at his junior. But joy turned to dismay when the Bombay high court quashed the charge under India's 1989 Prevention of Atrocities Act because the offense had been committed in a private office and not in public. However, the court directed the police to register a case under another law, the 1955 Civil Rights Protection Act.

At least this legal nit-picking was not as grotesque as the Madras high court's acquittal in 1973 of 23 upper-caste Hindu landowners who had burned 43 Dalit men, women and children to death in their huts. The judge argued speciously that people of their rank would hire others to do their dirty work while "keeping themselves in the background."

The United Nations Commission on Human Rights will now examine the abominations of what has been called the world's oldest color bar - the Sanskrit word for caste being varna, or color. "Dalits have pierced through the wall of silence in the UN," exulted the National Campaign for Dalit Human Rights convenor, Paul Divakar.

Three years of study are expected to enable the rights commission's two special rapporteurs, Yozo Yokota and Chin-Sung Chung, to compile a set of draft guidelines to bury the job-oriented caste hierarchy, which goes back millennia.

The two will find that discrimination persists not because India's government condones it but because poorly enforced laws have failed to move society. They will also discover contradictions that hinder reform. Dalits are traditionally employed as sweepers and cremation ground attendants. They keep "unclean" animals like pigs and are subjected to every conceivable form of discrimination. But their leaders enjoy considerable political clout because, in an effort to redress the injustice of ages, India's Constitution lavishes generous privileges on them.

(The constitution's author, a U.S.-trained lawyer, B.R. Ambedkar, was himself a Dalit whom an enlightened Maharajah of Baroda sent to school. But he had to sit outside the classroom and listen to lessons through a window.)

Dalits live apart from the rest of the community in the interior of states like Bihar and Rajasthan in northern India and Tamil Nadu and Andhra Pradesh in the south. They are forbidden to enter temples, draw water from village wells, bathe in communal ponds or walk along certain streets. Teashops and eating-houses throw them out.

Dalits own less land than other Indians. Their education lags behind the national average. They are the poorest in India. No wonder some have turned to Marxist-Leninist rebellion. Others have become Buddhists. Romance across the caste divide in these places is punished with swift severity: Daring Dalit boys are killed, Dalit girls raped.

Yet, social servitude and economic bondage is not the entire story. Positive discrimination - easy loans, tax benefits, and reserved education, employment and numerous other facilities - has created what an official report calls "a vested interest in backwardness."

Thus, the number of Dalit groups doubled between 1950 and 1960, with 190 more clamoring for inclusion. That same report spoke of "a creamy layer" within the community. Apparently, a handful of politically savvy Dalits who corner privileges treat their brethren with the contempt of which they themselves complain.

Politics provides the worst example of distorted good intentions. Hundreds of reserved seats in state legislatures and the federal Parliament have made Dalits the target for lobbying and taught them the value of bargaining. Though the best-known Dalit politician, Jagjivan Ram, a prime ministerial contender in 1979, wisely acknowledged that permanent privileges would make people think of Dalits as "a community of incompetent and inferior people," he did not refuse them.

The constitutional privileges introduced in 1950 were meant to last only 10 years. But Dalit luminaries who have taken their woes to the UN, the World Conference Against Racism in Durban and the European Parliament (which condemns "continual acts of discrimination in Indian society based on caste-related, social or religious status") would be the first to protest if positive discrimination ends.

The real worry is whether anything the Commission on Human Rights does will help impoverished and illiterate Dalits in remote villages. Obscurantist high-caste officials will thwart reform; so might their own pampered leaders. The international spotlight is a good thing, but experience shows that India's economic revolution, bringing education and social and political awareness in its train, is the best guarantor of minority rights.

(Sunanda K. Datta-Ray, a former editor of The Statesman in India, is author of ''Waiting for America: India and the U.S. in the New Millennium.'')

Dalits - Real Issues & Discussion - acharya - 05-14-2005

By and large, a number of the NGOs in India accredited to the UNO and associated with Dalit Movement, are said to be a part of the Christian Movement- sponsored Liberation Theology. With huge amounts of foreign funds at their disposal, the main task of the social activists associated with Church institutions like Indian Social Institute, William Carries and others are to alienate the ?Dalits? from the cultural mainstream of the country and provide an opportunity to their masters to convert them to Christianity.

Dalits - Real Issues & Discussion - Guest - 05-14-2005

OP-Ed from Pioneer - interesting article.
QUOTEÂ Is this the Empire's revenge? 
Chandrabhan Prasad
Now himself under cloud for having made a casteist remark against Anil Kumar Yadav, the then SP of Gopal Ganj, the controversial IAS officer, Mr LV Saptarishi, has unintentionally triggered off a new debate. Do senior officers make casteist remarks at the work place? Or, do traditional upper caste people make casteist remarks against people of the lower castes? What in this case seems certain is that, either the two Election Commissioners in question had actually made the remark as being alleged Mr Saptarishi, or Saptarishi himself had made that remark against the SP of Gopalganj, and knew that such remarks can be made, and somebody else implicated of casteist tendencies on grounds such as this.

Given the timing of Saptarishi's "disclosure", and the way he did it - holding a press conference like a politician - he has, in all likelihood, worked in tandem with the RJD to market Lalu's "victimhood". Whatever be the circumstances, and intent of Saptarishi, the issue raised by him needs further attention. In yet another case, Mr VP Shetty, chairman of the Industrial Development Bank of India (IDBI), has been accused of making a casteist remark against Dalits. He was arrested and released on bail.

Mr Shetty, Mr Saptarishi, or the two Election Commissioners, are no ordinary citizens as they hold high positions. To many, there is an element of doubt as to how can people like them could make casteist remarks. To the victims, however, casteist remarks may be a reality. A casteist remark, or remarks meant to humiliate an individual on the basis of his/her social origin, may occur in various forms. A person with a higher level of sophistication may be quite subtle while somebody less bright may be quite brutal. But the hurt caused may be of the same level.

India is caste-society, built by bricks of bias and prejudice. Castes all over India have "caste-jokes" meant to denigrate others. "Teen tagava par biswas mat karna": In English this means: "Never believe men of triple threads (Brahman, Kshatriya, and Vaishya)". Another one goes: "Sath saala hai". In English, this roughly translates as "he is sixty years of age" (hence a Yadav), and entitled to wisdom. Now sample this: "Padha likha jat, solah doona ath" which says "to an educated Jat, sixteen multiplied by two is equivalent to eight".

Since the Yadavas have traditionally been perceived as a violent people, even a fair electoral victory for Lalu Prasad Yadav can be easily construed as rigged. The upper castes have, over the years, resisted from entering into any kind of social churning, leave alone indulge in any meaningful self-criticism. There are a host of well-educated, cultured and in many ways, men of exceptional credibility in the Congress and BJP. They, however, often belong to the Dwija category, which is losing its grip over the political power structure. In the early 1930s, there was a big riot between Yadavs and Dwijas in Bihar. The riot had a unique genesis. The Yadavas had decided to adopt the Upanayana (the sacred triple thread), which entitles people to enter the Dwija social basket. This was unacceptable to the upper castes and the riot followed. The British government had to impose mass penalty on the Dwijas.

The traditional lower castes, the Shudras in the classical order, or OBCs in the contemporary discourse, can't in any manner relate themselves to the Dwija leadership. To them, a dubious Lalu or Mulayam Singh Yadav would remain preferable to others despite their many idiosyncrasies. These leaders would succeed in mobilising their people by invoking history. The memory of the past practices of the Dwijas and the smriti-smruti tradition of their subjugation for ages is too much of a factor behind their political decision.

The Dwijas, instead of acknowledging their past and apologising for all their crimes, prefer to go on the counter-offensive. Due to their numerical weakness, they have been losing out in electoral politics. Once a dominant social category, the Dwijas have no social friends today. They operate on the space provided by the Congress and the BJP and try to work out newer social alliances. The friction within the larger Shudra category gives them hope. But, those Shudras who align with the upper caste-led Congress or the BJP, loose credibility within their community. The Dwijas, therefore, are on the run. Lalu or Uma Bharati have a larger social appeal. The Dwija political leadership has been clueless about the wider ramifications of this social phenomenon.

Finding their political isolation helpless, the Dwijas in the non-political realm - bureaucracy, media, academia, business and art - have taken upon themselves the mission to reinstall their hegemony. The methods they deploy are too well-known: Humiliation, lampooning, and deceit, to mention only a few.

Saptarishi himself, who in all likelihood is a Dwija, is a case in point. He is supposed to have made casteist remark against the then SP of Gopal Ganj. At that point of time, the NDA was expected to win. It is quite possible that the two election commissioners had actually made casteist remarks, but Saptarishi did not object as he too was on a similar mission. Assuming that the two election commissioners did not make any such remark, and yet Saptarishi is making such allegations, it may be assumed that the prompt is coming from the realisation that power has changed hands. Knowing that Lalu is a major player, Saptarishi may have played the caste card to secure for himself a post-retirement assignment.

The media had chosen Lalu as tool to lampoon the Shudra leadership. Lalu played into the hands of the media, and would often present himself as a clown, which he is not. Lalu has many a cultured Shudra colleague, but the media would focus those with considerable criminal behaviour. This worked to Lalu's advantage, his people took him as their hero. The media presents Mulayam Singh Yadav as a wrestler, suggesting that he is more brawn than brain. This ploy backfired, because both Lalu and Mulayam benefited from the type-casting. This has effectively thrown the upper castes out of the political power structure.

This whole episode opens a much larger picture: Indians are born out of caste unions, they grow up in caste categories harbouring all kinds of biases and prejudices. As a universal phenomenon, people are never autonomous of the society they are born and brought up in. A European, for instance, will not go to a beach in a suit. The same European will not go to office in a swimsuit. Did nature prescribe this dress code? No, it's society which demands such dress codes. Likewise, a person born in India will be bound by social codes to live out his entire life. If India is a caste society, its people are "caste-people", with caste biases and prejudices almost genetically ingrained.

India, at this juncture of history when societies elsewhere are seeking moderation - often under the leadership of the traditional elite itself - is witnessing a fight for the re-installation of old-world domination. This is a bad signal for the future. The Dwijas who are outside the realm of politics should participate in the social churning, targeting their past to begin with. If that were to a remote possibility, then we all had it- India is fast falling into a new phase of de-democratisation.

(The author is a commentator on social and political issues from the Dalit perspective)

Dalits - Real Issues & Discussion - Guest - 05-18-2005

http://www.telegraphindia.com/1050516/asp/...ory_4743813.asp

Mayavati hisses at âsnakeâ Cong
OUR SPECIAL CORRESPONDENT

New Delhi, May 15: After offering support to the UPA government for almost a year, Mayavati has suddenly realised that the Congress is a âsnakeâ.

â'The Congress-led coalition is saapnath (snake) while the NDA is nagnath (king cobra),â the Bahujan Samaj Party chief, whom the CBI is investigating in an assets case, declared today.

She added that both the UPA and the NDA are manuwadi coalitions. â'The only difference is that if a cobra bites, a person dies instantly. But if you are bitten by (an ordinary) snake you die a slow death,â Mayavati explained.

She said Dalits have been angered by the âdouble standardsâ adopted by the CBI in her case and that BSP leaders had sought her permission to launch a nationwide agitation. BSP sources said they have information that the Congress is unlikely to help Mayavati out in the corruption cases against her as it wants to weaken her, especially in Uttar Pradesh.

The Congress apparently feels that while Mulayam Singh Yadav has wooed away its Muslim voters, Mayavati has usurped its Dalit vote base and is now trying in a big way to lure the Brahmins.

An âunpredictableâ Mayavati also created problems for herself by refusing to align with the Congress in the Lok Sabha elections and again contesting against the party in Maharashtra.

Unnerved by the CBI move, Mayavati is trying to whip up an anti-Congress wave across the country and paint it as an upper caste party, sources said. BSP leaders have been citing how the âbackward casteâ Laloo Prasad Yadav is also under the CBI scanner.

Laloo Prasadâs party, the RJD, has openly backed Mayavati against the CBI âonslaughtâ.

After the CBI interrogated her in the assets case early this week, the BSP chief threatened to withdraw support to the UPA government and expose the Congressâs âmanuwadiâ mindset.

She will write to Prime Minister Manmohan Singh and UPA chairperson Sonia Gandhi asking what they had done in the past one year for the betterment of Dalits. <img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/laugh.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='laugh.gif' /> <img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/laugh.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='laugh.gif' /> If their answer doesnât satisfy her, she might withdraw support.

Though withdrawal of support by the 18-member BSP will not hurt the government, Mayavati hopes her threat will buy her some relief from the CBI pressure. Asked whether she was serious about her threat, she said: âWe did not spare the NDA, how can we spare the Congress?â

The BSP chief convened a meeting of her partyâs central executive committee and state presidents here and âreviewedâ the performance of the UPA government and âits ability to safeguard the interests of the bahujan samajâ.

After the meeting, held in a five-star hotel, she slammed the government for its failure to look after Dalits and Adivasis.

Dalits - Real Issues & Discussion - Guest - 05-25-2005

hmmm...

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/1119628.cms

QUOTEBSP to hold "Brahmin mahasammelan"Add to Clippings

PTI[ TUESDAY, MAY 24, 2005 09:37:46 AM ]
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ALLAHABAD: Accusing the ruling Samajwadi Party in Uttar Pradesh of being "hostile" towards Brahmins, the Bahujan Samaj Party today urged the community to repose its trust in the party which was "their only true well wisher".

"This would be our strident message to Brahmins of U.P. during the Brahman 'mahasammelan' scheduled for June 9, when around 5 lakh BSP supporters from the community would be assembling at the Ambedkar Maidan in Lucknow'', party leader Sushil Mishra told reporters here.

He said at the congregation, "party supremo Mayawati will dispel all doubts about the BSP's attitude towards Brahmins that have arisen as a result of misinformation campaign by the party's detractors''.

Dalits - Real Issues & Discussion - Guest - 06-10-2005

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/1137945.cms

QUOTEMaya: Who says I hate Brahmins?Add to Clippings
MANJARI MISHRA

TIMES NEWS NETWORK[ THURSDAY, JUNE 09, 2005 11:01:33 PM ]
Surf 'N' Earn -Sign innow
LUCKNOW: In an ideological leap, BSP supremo Mayawati on Thursday officially consecrated the new Dalit-Brahmin combine.
Addressing an impressive public meeting that had a substantial number of Brahmins along with other upper caste Hindus, amidst the din of conchshells, slogans and applause, the former chief minister urged Brahmins to join her "if they wanted to live a life of dignity and honour."

In defensive mode, Mayawati rattled off a list of Brahmin beneficiaries during her regime, starting with Ramveer Upadhyay, who was made cabinet minister twice, Brijesh Pathak, the Lok Sabha member from Unnao and Satish Mishra, who was appointed advocate-general and then nominated to the Rajya Sabha by her. "Would I do it if I were a Brahmin-hater?" she asked.

Dalits - Real Issues & Discussion - Guest - 06-10-2005

Very amusing.

This just shows that no caste grouping by itself can win UP (or even Bihar). But the fact that Mayavati is wooing Brahmins suggets that in her mind Brahmins appear disenchanted with Congress as well as BJP, their erstwhile favorite parties.

I just had a funny thought! Brahmins as a whole are more than muslims in UP. If they start voting en-block, then we can see even a madder rush to garner the brahmin vote bank. May be a future Arjun Singh clone would offer to reserve 50% seats in select universities for Brahmins. Paswan, a highly secular(?) leader, thought that a necessary and sufficient condition for a good CM for Bihar should be that he should be a muslim, no matter if he had no political acumen or leadership and vision. We may see a Paswan clone demanding a brahmin CM even if only thing he could do was to blow the conch shell.