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Pakistan - News and Discussion -7 - Guest - 08-20-2006 Guardian's take on Tablghi Jamaat Inside the Islamic group accused by MI5 and FBI Paul Lewis Saturday August 19, 2006 The Guardian Thousands of young Muslim men are attending meetings in east London every week run by a fundamentalist Islamic movement believed by western intelligence agencies to be used as a fertile recruiting ground by extremists. Tablighi Jamaat, whose activities are being monitored by the security services, holds the tightly guarded meetings on an industrial estate close to the area where some of the suspects in last week's terror raids were arrested. This week it emerged that at least seven of the 23 suspects under arrest on suspicion of involvement in the plot to blow up transatlantic airliners may have participated in Tablighi events. The organisation - influenced by a branch of Saudi Arabian Islam known as Wahhabism - has already been linked to two of the July 7 suicide bombers who attended a Tablighi mosque at the organisation's headquarters in Dewsbury, West Yorkshire. The jailed shoe bomber Richard Reid is also known to have attended Tablighi meetings. Until now, the leaders of Tablighi Jamaat - which means <b>"group of preachers" </b>- have refused to open their doors to outsiders, shrouding the organisation in mystery. Tablighi enthusiasts say that the organisation, founded by a scholar in India in the 1920s, has no involvement with terrorism and simply encourages Muslims to follow the example of the prophet and proselytise the teachings of the Qur'an. As one sympathetic imam put it, they were the "Jehovah's Witnesses of Islam". On Thursday evening, the Guardian witnessed around 3,000 men from as far afield as Great Yarmouth and the Isle of Wight stream through the backstreets of Stratford to the meeting. There, at the gates of a seemingly derelict industrial site, men in fluorescent jackets waved those who are known to the Tablighi Jamaat hierarchy under a security barrier, and into one of three fields that surround a cluster of prefabricated buildings which form a temporary mosque. As the Guardian entered the complex one person spoke admiringly about the "main man" for the south-east division of Tablighi Jamaat. "We can't call him a prophet," he said. "No one can be a prophet. But when you meet him you'll realise. He's helped a lot of people in Walthamstow to follow the right path, the path of the prophet. He'll talk to you openly this evening and everything will make sense." Seconds later, the main man stood next to his red van in Islamic dress and a smart blue waistcoat as hundreds of men, many carrying suitcases and sleeping bags, filed past him into a network of six rooms cobbled together with planks of wood and corrugated plastic windows. He later said he was from Walthamstow. The largest room was reserved for the main speaker, an elder from Preston who spoke in Urdu. <b>His sermon was relayed through a microphone to five other rooms in which interpreters provided simultaneous translation into English, Arabic, Sinhala, Turkish and Somali.</b> The English-speaking room heaved as a sea of faces, white, black and Asian, spilled into the hallway. <b>Most were teenagers and men in their 20s and 30s </b>dressed in Islamic dress, caps and beards. Some came in suits and ties, others in jeans and hoodies. There were old men too, who weaved slowly through to the front of the room, and a few young boys. The Walthamstow man took a seat in the middle of the room to interpret proceedings. The murmur of hundreds of whispering voices stopped as he put on his headphones. "We come to submit our will to Allah," he began. "We have to live the life that Allah has prescribed for us. We have been invited into Allah's house." He continued to translate the preacher's message. "If a person is drowning, the man who saves him needs to take him out of the water. If he has swallowed too much water, that water must come out. At the moment we are in a worldly ocean and we are all drowning. For us to become successful, we must come out of this world for a short period of time." Although not a scholar, the interpreter is deeply respected. Quietly, some in the congregation whisper that he has seen miracles - the sign of a truly committed Tablighi. After an hour the preacher concluded with a call for followers to join the effort and commit to a trip away. <b>"We must leave our houses, our businesses, our families, for a short period of time, and follow the path of Allah and practise the ways of the prophet, going from mosque to mosque</b>," said the interpreter. "Then [the behaviour] will become second nature to us. We shall go to India and Pakistan for four months to follow these ways." What Tablighi followers call "the effort" - <b>travelling around the country for three days or 10 days</b>, depending on their level of commitment - is key to the organisation. Once they have completed the first stage, <b>they may undertake a 40-day trip, which is likely to entail travel around Europe</b>. Finally, a Tablighi member will be given the opportunity to <b>take a four-month journey to Pakistan or India</b>. During their "efforts" members are encouraged to emulate the life of the prophet and show others "the path". On domestic trips, members are sent to communities where they will have most leverage. In September, for example, students will be sent to universities throughout the country. Later in the evening, the rooms are transformed into dining halls. A small group of men who know several of the Walthamstow suspects gathered round to share out plastic plates of chickpeas, lamb and naan bread, washed down with cans of peach juice and Coke. "It will shock you but we all used to be deep into drugs and crime and all that," said one man, in his 20s, who went on a three-day trip to Woking with one of the suspects arrested in last week's raids. "Walthamstow used to be a dodgy area. Tablighi changed all that." A former body builder showed pictures on his mobile of the "pumped-up gym fanatic" he used to be. After spells in prison, he said, he went on a life-changing four-month trip to Pakistan. "I went to places you wouldn't believe," he said. <b>"There are people in Pakistan and India who know less about the prophet than people in east London."</b> The Urdu interpreter from Walthamstow acknowledged that Tablighi Jamaat had roused suspicions. "I know three or four people who come here regularly who are informants," he said. "After September 11 the security services met with our elders at our headquarters and told them that they keep the flight records of every Tablighi member who travels abroad. But we are not worried. They can close us down and it will not matter because the effort will continue. We have no fear." He said he was not worried about the Walthamstow suspect he knows best, a young man he recently took on a 40-day trip to Scotland. <b>"Anyone who suffers for Islam will be rewarded</b>," he said. Asked about the association between Tablighi Jamaat and terrorist groups, he replied: <b>"Tablighi is like Oxford University. We have intelligent people - doctors, solicitors, businessmen - but one or two will become drug dealers, fraudsters. But you won't blame Oxford University for that.</b> You see, it does not matter if someone speaks in favour or against this effort. Everything happens with the will of God." Another follower added: "Sometimes the youngsters say that if they saw President Bush they would chop his head off, and things like that. But we're discouraged from talking about politics. If elders say these things it is out of anger. They're not dangerous, they can't actually do anything." By the early hours, 300 followers had volunteered for a three-day trip. One man who knows six of the suspects arrested last week leaned against the wall, the City of London glowing behind his shoulders, and adjusted his cap. "Do you see now?" he said. "<b>Tablighi is not the problem. It is the solution. It is another world in here, completely different from the world outside."</b> Pakistan - News and Discussion -7 - Guest - 08-21-2006 <b>Pak proceeds to detain members of banned terror groups</b><!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->With suspicion falling on Pakistan-based terrorist in a plot to blow up US-bound planes from UK, Islamabad has put over 400 members of banned terrorist groups on a 'watch list' and proceeded to detain them. The Inter-Provincial Coordination Committee (IPCC), which met on Saturday, has put 400 'alleged extremists' on a watch list. <!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd--> Revolving door at work. How many times they will repeat same old drama. Pakistan - News and Discussion -7 - Naresh - 08-21-2006 <b>Test abandoned after ball dispute</b> <!--emo&:flush--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/Flush.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='Flush.gif' /><!--endemo--> <b>Pakistan forfeited the fourth Test against England after the match descended into chaos when the tourists were penalised for ball-tampering.</b> Pakistan were penalised five runs by the umpires and refused to take to the field after tea in protest. The tourists later made a U-turn, but umpires Darrell Hair and Billy Doctrove would not return to the field of play. Officials spent several hours trying to find a resolution but the match was eventually awarded to England. <img src='http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/41993000/jpg/_41993706_umpires270.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image' /> <b>Umpires Darrell Hair and Billy Doctrove examine the ball</b> A joint statement from the ICC, England and Wales Cricket Board and Pakistan Cricket Board read: "After lengthy negotiations which resulted in agreement between the teams, the match referee and both the ECB and PCB to resume the fourth Test tomorrow, it was concluded that with regret there will be no play on the fifth day. "The fourth Test has therefore been forfeited with the match being awarded to England. "In accordance with the laws of cricket, it was noted that the umpires had correctly deemed that Pakistan had forfeited the match and awarded the test to England. "The Pakistan team was aggrieved by the award of five penalty runs to England. "The award of those penalty runs for alleged interference with the ball is under review by the ICC match referee Mike Proctor, whose report will be considered in due course. "ICC will be issuing a separate report concerning action which may be taken in relation to the forfeiture of the match by Pakistan." England therefore took the series 3-0, but chief executive David Collier said the ECB expressed regret that "spectators, television viewers, and radio listeners [had been] deprived of play". <b>He added that there would be a 40% refund for fourth-day tickets and a full refund for those holding tickets for Monday's play.</b> Earlier Pakistan Cricket Board chairman Shaharyar Khan explained to the BBC why the team had chosen to make their protest. "We simply said we would stay indoors for a few minutes then go out and play. We want to play but the umpires do not." The row began when Hair and Doctrove stopped play to look at the condition of the ball after 56 overs with England on 230-3. It had begun to reverse-swing and they declared it had been altered artificially. They penalised Pakistan five runs and allowed England batsmen Kevin Pietersen and Paul Collingwood to select another ball. Pakistan captain Inzamam-ul-Haq was clearly upset and annoyed at the decision but play continued without further incident until tea. After the interval, however, Pakistan failed to come out and the umpires removed the bails after walking onto the pitch for a second time. Thirty minutes later Pakistan emerged and walked onto the pitch but were told to head back to the dressing room because the umpires would not be coming out. Khan said the team had been insulted by the accusation of cheating. "The umpires have concluded the ball was deliberately scuffed and we are absolutely 100% sure that is not the case," he said. <!--emo&:liar liar--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/liar.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='liar.gif' /><!--endemo--> "What we feel very resentful about is that the captain was not informed something was going wrong with the ball and told to contain it. "Umpires are within their rights to decide without consulting but there was no consultation with anyone and no evidence seems to have been given. "One or two of the management staff have had a look and are convinced this is a ball which has been hit about for 56 overs. "We think it's the kind of ball you'd expect to see and there is no evidence of deliberate scuffing. We hope the ball will be showed so people can make up their own minds about it." Play officially ended for the day at 1813 BST with England - who have already won the series - on 298-4, 33 runs behind Pakistan. Australian Hair is no stranger to controversy, having famously no-balled Sri Lanka spinner Muttiah Muralitharan for throwing in the Melbourne Test of 1995. He also reported Pakistan all-rounder Shahid Afridi for scuffing the pitch with his boots in the second Test against England last winter. Relations between England and Pakistan have improved in recent years following the 1987 row between then captain Mike Gatting and Pakistani umpire Shakoor Rana in Faisalabad. Cheers <!--emo&:beer--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/cheers.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='cheers.gif' /><!--endemo--> Pakistan - News and Discussion -7 - Guest - 08-21-2006 The Oval Test: <b>Musharraf backs Inzamam's decision</b> <!--emo&--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--emo&--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->ISLAMABAD: President General Pervez Musharraf contacted Pakistan team management by phone and backed Inzamam's decision to keep his team off the field in the chaos-hit fourth Test against England at The Oval. According to the magagement,<b> the president said that umpire Darrell Hair insulted Pakistan and the skipper's decision to stage a dressing room protest during the tea interval was right</b>. "We have indicated clearly that we were willing to go out and that we want the match to continue," Pakistan Cricket Board (PCB) chairman Shaharyar Khan said. "The team were deeply upset at the implication they had been cheating. They wanted to protest by just waiting a few minutes and then come out to play," he added<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd--> Everyone is insulting Pakistan. Pakistan - News and Discussion -7 - Guest - 08-22-2006 As a Brit would say - it's just not cricket. It's Clash of Civilizations <!--emo&:bevil--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/b_evil.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='b_evil.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->the president said that umpire Darrell Hair insulted Pakistan <!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd--> Oh oh.. expect Blair to put some loose change into the begging lota to pacify the Paki H&D On a more serious note, there's something missing in this story. How come the Paki bowler/fielder who tampered the ball hasn't been named or caught on camera? Don't trust this ICC type umpires who have history against Indian/Sri Lankan etc. Pakistan - News and Discussion -7 - Guest - 08-22-2006 One can't trust Brits also. Right now environment in UK is not very favorable for Pakis or BDies. Pakistan - News and Discussion -7 - Guest - 08-22-2006 <b>Encounter of 2 suspected Pak terrorists in Mumbai</b><!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->One Pakistani national was killed while another arrested by the anti-terrorism sqaud (ATS) in a late night encounter in Mumbai. <!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--emo&--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo--> Pakistan - News and Discussion -7 - Guest - 08-23-2006 <b>US Consulate blast accused arrested </b><!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->The IGP said that the suicide bomber had been identified as Raja Muhammad Tahir s/o Raja Muhammad Afzal, resident of House No 330-D near Madina Masjid, Landhi. The other two suspects were arrested from Hijrat colony in Artillery police limits. He said that the suspects were Al Qaeda members and that Al Qaeda itself had claimed responsibility for the blast. The IGP said the arrest was made possible due to joint effort of Anti-Violent Crime Cell and intelligence agencies. He said the suicide bomber had hidden the bomb inside a CNG cylinder and seats as these things were not searched during a security check. He said the explosive material consisted of C-4 and TNT. <!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd--> How many people they have arrested till now on same blast? Looks like never ending saga or just a ploy for more goodies and F16. Pakistan - News and Discussion -7 - Naresh - 08-23-2006 <b>Pakistan prepared for ban on Inzamam over delay in taking field</b> <!--emo&:flush--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/Flush.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='Flush.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->LONDON: Pakistan are mentally prepared for an International Cricket Council (ICC) ban on their captain Inzamam-ul-Haq but only if it is based on the touristsâ delay in taking the field after the tea interval on the fourth day of the now infamous Test at The Oval. But they would almost certainly head home without featuring in the one-day series against England if the Pakistan captain is punished over the charges of ball tampering against the hosts, âThe Newsâ learnt here on Tuesday.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd--> Cheers <!--emo&:beer--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/cheers.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='cheers.gif' /><!--endemo--> Pakistan - News and Discussion -7 - Naresh - 08-23-2006 [center]<b><span style='color:red'>JALEBI ON TAMPERING WITH BALLS</span></b> <!--emo&:clapping--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/clap.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='clap.gif' /><!--endemo--> [/center] <b>Call the boys back</b> <b>Pakistan has clearly been sending out wrong signals post-9/11 which has allowed all and sundry to attack and vilify Pakistan at will. Even in the field of cricket, we have allowed our players to take abuse at the hands of racist umpires and an ICC which still seeks to exude an imperialist legacy long after the demise of British imperialism. Why else would Pakistan's cricketing officials -- most holding office without any merit credentials -- have allowed our hard working and dedicated team to suffer insults, racist slurs and simply bad umpiring over and over again.</b> On the English team's tour of Pakistan in 2005, we saw no protest to a clear case of cheating, when Ian Bell wrongfully claimed a catch to put an end to Mohammed Yousuf's flowing innings. This, despite the fact that an appeal could have been made to the umpires -- as Shane Warne had done in the last match of the Ashes in England the same year. We also saw the Harmison incident when he physically dislodged Inzamam by throwing the ball at him rather than at the wicket, and we know the absurdity of what followed. To no one's surprise, Darrell Hair was central to letting the English team's unfair tactics go by, but the fault also lay with chairman of the Pakistan Cricket Board (PCB) and Coach Bob Woolmer who took no issue of this abuse of Pakistani cricketers because they wanted to "maintain a good spirit in the series". <b>So it should not have surprised us to see Pakistan continue to be mistreated and abused on the cricket pitch ad nauseam.</b> Why did Pakistan not lodge a protest against the appointment of Hair as a test umpire for the present series is a question whose answer lies in the colonial subservience of the PCB chief to all things British. So the maltreatment continued and most commentators have accepted the fact that the England's Headingley victory was as much a result of Hair's decisions as cricketing prowess of the English cricket team. Yet the Pakistani officials kept a highly questionable silence. In fact, I am surprised our players kept their cool for as long as they have done and Inzamam's only fault at the Oval was to have reacted late in protesting and then walking back on to the field. <b>Enough is enough. How much abuse are we Pakistanis to take? We have been called "terrorists", the slur "Pakis" is used with gay abandon in England, and in cricket we have had to put up with cheating and wrong decisions at the hands of badly-selected umpires</b>. Now again, the ICC has chosen to fault Inzamam without first collecting evidence to establish whether the so-called ball-tampering actually took place. How can the ICC charge the Pakistani captain in this fashion -- all this is reflective of an imperial approach towards a minion? Why have no charges been leveled against Hair? In these circumstances, it seems totally absurd to continue to play in England. Just as South Africa called off their tour of Sri Lanka on security grounds, Pakistan should call off the England tour on grounds of an unplayable environment. But the PCB officials continue to grovel to the ICC and English sensibilities. The PCB Chairman's mumbled defence, if one can call it that, of the innocent Pakistanis is pathetic. I have stated earlier in these columns, and I will reiterate once again that the present PCB chief has been bad news for Pakistani cricket and should immediately be removed. We need someone who will have the spirit to defend and support our team in trying times. Cricket is a sport which is played to win -- it is not a diplomatic tool nor should it be sacrificed in the name of diplomacy. The colonial hangover of the PCB chief was also reflected in Pakistan being the only country that opposed dilution of the umpires' authority by offering players recourse to replays and so on. As for the ICC, it is a body that has outlived its usefulness. We need to remember that the chief executive is Malcolm Speed who, like Hair, is an Australian. The fact is that the ICC is destroying cricket. In any event, given that most of the Test-playing cricketing countries are independent non-white states, why select an ICC chief executive from Australia? Obviously, Pakistan is not going to get a fair decision from the ICC. Why even bother to go to the hearing when the charges have been made with no investigation? As for the umpires, Hair was deliberately not put on the elite panel of umpires when it was announced in 2002 because of his controversial decisions in the past. Once Malcolm Speed had strengthened his position in the ICC after taking over in July 2001, he became instrumental in putting Hair on the elite panel in 2003. But Hair is clearly unfit given his racism and very evident bias against South Asians -- he referred to Muttiah Muralitharan's bowling action as "diabolical" in his autobiography. Given Hair's record, the ICC clearly showed mala fide intent towards Pakistan by appointing him as the umpire for the test series. Yet there was no protest from Pakistan. As for Doctrove, he has only joined the Elite Panel in March 2006 and in the India-West Indies Test series in June 2006, he was found dithering on a crucial decision involving Lara and Dhoni. Perhaps he should have stuck to his football refereeing. With the deck stacked against Pakistan in England and within the ICC, some points need to be reiterated. ⢠First, the Hair charge is simply without any basis given the presence of 26 cameras at the Oval none of which caught even the slightest hint of tampering. ⢠Two, Inzamam was right to protest and the strength and dignity of the protest should be sustained with no compromise with the ICC or over the ODIs. How much abuse will we continue to take? For once let us stand behind our countrymen in their hour of trial. ⢠Three, if the Pakistani action was going to result in forfeiture as a result of the umpires' decision, then why were the PCB officers so ignorant of the rules? The less said about Zaheer Abbas the better, but are the PCB chairman and coach also not well-versed in the cricketing rules? ⢠Five, Pakistani cricket needs professional management. It does not deserve to be abandoned to retirees from the Foreign Office or disgruntled cricketers with their own agendas. A PCB that does not have the courage or inclination to defend our boys in their time of need should be disbanded. ⢠Six, the ICC should be replaced with a more viable body in tune with modern times. In any event the national cricketing boards should be the final arbiters. Perhaps the ICC needs to be reminded that it is the cricketers who bring in the paycheck and other goodies to them so they need to ensure the players' welfare not that of the umpires of ICC officials -- who by the way have ensconced themselves in Dubai now despite the fact that the UAE hardly has any cricket history. Finally, the PCB needs to sue Hair and Doctrove as well as the ICC. Pakistan cannot be taken for a patsy to be abused at will. At the end of the day, if national cricket boards choose to ignore the ICC, what can the ICC do in real terms? Colonialism is dead -- let us rid ourselves of its vestiges and its apologists. The writer is director general of the Pakistan Institute of Strategic Studies in Islamabad. Email: smnews80@hotmail.com Cheers <!--emo&:beer--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/cheers.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='cheers.gif' /><!--endemo--> Pakistan - News and Discussion -7 - acharya - 08-23-2006 Pakistan versus the Last Superpower - Underestimated Pakistanis May Be a Degree Too Self-Confident. http://www.questia.com/PM.qst;jsessionid=G...=o&d=5002386554 by Khalid Duran Khalid Duran, the publisher of Trans Islam Magazine in Washington, D.C., has written frequently for The World & I on Islam and the Arab world. When the British granted independence to their colonial empire in India in 1947, the Muslim-majority areas united as a new state separate from India, calling it Pakistan, which means "Country of the Pure." At that time it consisted of East and West Pakistan, separated by six thousand miles of Indian territory. Since its creation Pakistan has rarely been given the importance due to a nation of its size, and Pakistanis are eminently conscious of being underrated. Although the illiteracy rate is still more than 70 percent, the country has an admirable elite, especially in the natural sciences. At one time Pakistan topped the list of the manpower-exporting countries, and in the United States the number of immigrant medical doctors born in Pakistan is second only to those from rival India. A European diplomat posted in Ankara after four years in Islamabad was wonderstruck to note that Turkey, which is counted as European, was in some respects still less developed than Pakistan. And yet, Egypt, Iran, and Turkey, each having less than half of Pakistan's 150 million population, are paid double the attention that it is normally given. Pakistan's military believes in a "next round," or fourth war, with India. The fight is over the Himalayan state of Kashmir, the major portion of which is held by India but claimed by Pakistan, because Kashmir's population is at least 80 percent Muslim. There is some resemblance here to North Korea's policy over half a century, which was geared toward "liberating" South Korea. Pakistan's irredentism with regard to Kashmir is even a little older. For Pakistanis, it is hard to accept their role as India's smaller neighbor. In 1971 they lost East Pakistan, which became the independent state of Bangladesh, with the help of India. Ever since, many in the military establishment are all the more determined to get hold of Kashmir. "What was taken from us in the east [Bangladesh] we must take from India in the west [Kashmir]," they argue. The conflict with India has added to the profound nationalism of many Pakistanis. They envision a state consisting of Pakistan plus Kashmir and Afghanistan. This large Muslim power would seek close affiliation with its neighbors to the north, the former Soviet republics Tajikistan, Uzbekistan, Turkmenistan, Kazakhstan, and Kyrgyzstan-- considered to be a vast market for Pakistani products. In the 1950s Pakistanis took pride in being considered America's closest friend in the region. This policy was conceived at a time when India was allied with the Soviet Union. For some time Washington was closer to the Beijing-Islamabad axis than it was to the counter Delhi- Moscow axis. In 1965 India and Pakistan fought a war that ended in a draw. The Pakistanis were deeply disappointed by U.S. neutrality in the conflict. Since the Korean War their country had been a close ally of the United States, to the extent that American spy planes monitoring the Soviet Union used to take off from a base in Pakistan. At one time Moscow threatened Islamabad with nuclear retaliation if it did not stop lending itself to Washington's anti-Soviet designs. Because Washington did not support Islamabad's claim on Kashmir and remained a neutral spectator in the 1965 war, Islamabad moved closer to Beijing. In the nineties India and the United States improved their relations, leaving Pakistan in the uncomfortable position of having to rely even more on China. Attempts by former Pakistani governments to develop closer ties to Arabia did not yield much. Traditionally, Pakistan has been keen on brotherly ties with Iran and Turkey. Relations with Iran, however, have turned sour, because Tehran feels that Afghanistan should be a vassal of Iran rather than of Pakistan. Pakistan, always somewhat isolated, has rarely been as alone as it is at present. Today many Pakistanis relish being among the foremost opponents of U.S. policies. The ruling circle, especially the directors of the powerful military intelligence service (ISI), believe that their country can go it alone. They bank on growing hostility between America and China. Military cooperation between Islamabad and Beijing has now become one of the most lasting alliances in the world. Initially, the China/Pakistan axis was meant to oppose the close alliance between India and the Soviet Union. Now it counterbalances the growing ties between India and the United States as well as the continuing Russia/India axis. FROM AFGHANISTAN TO KASHMIR From the start of the Afghan conflict, Islamabad intended to gain control of its neighbor. The Pakistani military had been in need of "strategic depth," which means a larger territory to keep its air force out of reach of an Indian surprise attack. In former days the shah of Iran had permitted the Pakistanis to station their warplanes on his territory. Now Afghanistan provides the strategic depth. Recent developments in Afghanistan signal a victory of the dynamic ISI. The fundamentalist movement of the Taliban is basically Islamabad's creation. The core of the Taliban are Afghan war orphans brought up in Pakistani refugee camps. Directed by Pakistani officers and reinforced by no less than twenty thousand volunteers from Pakistan, the Taliban has gained control of 95 percent of Afghan territory. This was a remarkable feat in view of the massive support that its opponents received from Iran, India, and Russia (via Tajikistan and Uzbekistan), including huge supplies of weapons by means of airlifts. Iran almost went to war with the Taliban, which might have escalated into a war with Pakistan, but then Tehran backed off. Pakistan's occupation of mountain ranges in Indian-held Kashmir in 1999 was a military masterpiece. Had not the government of then Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif given in to U.S. pressure and ordered a retreat, some of those Himalayan mountaintops might still be held by infiltrators from Pakistan. Most Pakistanis were furious that the United States took India's side, but they were also proud of having shown what their military can do. After the retreat, Sharif was deposed in a military coup. The new strongman, Gen. Pervez Musharraf, has little independence vis-a-vis his colleagues from the ISI. Although not publicly admitted, the Musharraf government is an indirect continuation of the Islamist military dictatorship of Gen. Mohammed Zia ul-Haq (r. 1977--1988). Musharraf and the leading ISI officers made their careers during that period. IDEOLOGY: FROM ISLAMISM TO JIHADISM A decisive factor in North Korea's perseverance in isolation is its adherence to what might be termed "national communism," centered on what it calls the principle of juche (self-reliance), administered by an all-pervasive dictatorship. The Islamists, who have dominated Pakistan, directly or indirectly, since 1977, talk as much about self-reliance as the North Koreans do, but they call their miracle principle jihad. Whenever Westerners translate jihad as "holy war" all hell breaks loose, as if this were the most malicious distortion with the purpose of defaming Islam. And yet, the way they themselves define jihad in some of their writings and speeches makes it appear the very essence of militant supremacism. But the privilege of understanding jihad that way is reserved for themselves; others should not dare define it other than as a noble effort to change the world for the better. Pakistan experimented alternately with democracy and military rule, and the ideological situation remains confusing and appears contradictory. The country has only gradually veered toward the new ideology of Islamism (which is not to be confused with the old religion of Islam). First some militants began to call themselves Islamists rather than Muslims, and now a new brand of even more radical militants has taken another step--from Islamism to Jihadism. They talk about jihad as if this were their new religion, mentioning it the way other Muslims mention Islam or God. The Pakistani press has come to speak of them as "Jihadists," signaling an escalation of extremism. In fair and free elections the Islamists/Jihadists have invariably been trounced, barely obtaining 5 percent of the vote. Their influence on Pakistani politics, however, has always been disproportionately high, because practically all their activists and sympathizers belong to the educated urban middle class. The rural population still constitutes almost 70 percent. Jama'at-e Islami, the major Jihadist organization, is one of the smallest parties in the country, but it is by far the richest, thanks to generous support from oil-rich Gulf countries. It is a tradition of the subcontinent to pay political demonstrators a daily allowance. Since the streets of most Pakistani cities are thronged with the jobless, it is easy for a richly endowed party to mobilize people and organize mass demonstrations. The Jama'at-e Islami, moreover, has the largest number of professional agitators and provides them with full- time employment. All along the Jama'at has concentrated its efforts on getting a foothold in the military and intelligence services. In the course of almost half a century, it has gained influence and ultimately come to dominate the ISI and, thereby, the country. One of its sympathizers, General Zia, ruled Pakistan with an iron fist. During that period Jihadists were placed in key positions in such a way as to make any government not of their choice collapse. In the words of Professor Sayyid Fatimi, the country's foremost historian and theologian, "Pakistan is a minefield just as much as Afghanistan. In Afghanistan it is the mines dropped by the Russians, in Pakistan it is the mines planted by the ISI." The reference is to the Jihadists placed in positions of power during Zia's rule, many of whom are not known to be Jihadists. For most of the time since independence, Pakistan has been under military governments. The generals have made it abundantly clear that even civilian governments will be subjected to some kind of control by the military, in a manner analogous to Turkey. The Turkish example has been the subject of open discussions for at least three decades. The situations in the countries are quite dissimilar, however. In Turkey, elections tend to yield results favorable to the Islamists, whose designs are then thwarted by secularist generals. In Pakistan, elections tend to result in landslide victories for secularist parties, which Islamist generals then seek to crush. In the period prior to the Jihadist supremacy, several former governments arrested leaders of the Jama'at-e Islami and prepared to ban it as a terrorist group. In 1973, when this happened last, an oil- rich Arab state prevailed upon Islamabad not to touch the party. The Jama'at may not be on the State Department's list of terrorist organizations, but it is the godfather of several groups listed as terrorist by the U.S. government. In October 2000, the Jama'at held an international convention in a suburb of Islamabad, the Pakistani capital. The convention was attended by Rached Ghannouchi, the fugitive head of Tunisia's terrorist organization Ennahda. Because of the group's involvement in terrorism, Ghannouchi has been barred from entering the United States. The convention also was addressed by Syed Salahuddin, "supreme commander" of Hizbu-l-Mujahidin, which is but another name for one of the groups listed as terrorist by the State Department. Hizbu-l- Mujahidin's specialty is killing Hindu villagers in isolated regions of Kashmir, a policy deeply resented by the victims' Muslim neighbors. Qazi Husain Ahmad, the Jama'at's head, made Salahuddin the hero of the Islamabad convention. Qazi (his family name) has argued repeatedly for retaliation against Americans if the United States takes any action against Usama Bin Laden. An Arabic book written and published by Bin Laden's partisans mentions that as early as 1980 he used to frequent Qazi's headquarters in Lahore, Pakistan, to make donations to the Jama'at. As far as Islamist terrorism is concerned, past governments of Pakistan have substantiated it abundantly. The present government in Islamabad may find it difficult to prove that all previous investigations were wrong and that the jihad proclaimed by the Jama'at and its various regional offshoots is nothing but moral rearmament. The Jama'at takes pride in its terrorist activities and is always keen on providing hard evidence to bolster its image as a party of hard-liners. In Canada and the United States its branches are called ICNA (Islamic Circle of North America) and hold annual conventions attended by Qazi Husain Ahmad and Ghulam Azam, the party's chief in Bangladesh. In 1999 and 2000 the convention took place in Baltimore. Addressing another group meeting in Fort Lauderdale, Florida, Qazi spoke of an "imperialist plot" to turn Kashmir into a military base from which to control all of Asia (because Kashmir is known as the "roof of the world"). Former army chief Gen. Mirza Aslam Beg, writing in Impact International, the group's monthly magazine, elaborated on this alleged U.S. plan to take hold of Kashmir. The Message, ICNA's quarterly magazine, published from New York, even ran a campaign to mobilize support for the Khartoum regime, caring little for the fact that Sudan figures on the list of terrorist states. For the Jama'at and its supporters in the United States, Sudan is a model state. The fact that the party is strongly represented among Pakistani Americans is due to a well-organized immigration strategy. To have strong communities in Canada and the United States is seen as economically and politically beneficial. During the Zia dictatorship, the Jama'at's student body used to terrorize the universities. Opponents would be removed from the university, incarcerated, or sometimes killed. Party members would get their degrees easily, and with a doctorate they would have few difficulties getting a visa for Canada or the United States. Once in America they would be looked after by the party's efficient network, which would help them on to quick green cards. In addition to ICNA they founded ISNA (Islamic Society of North America) as a front organization, with a majority of its Muslim members not knowing what game was being played. While originally funded from abroad, these Islamist organizations in America are now an important source of income for the party back home. Presenting themselves to the authorities as representatives of the Muslim community at large, these Jama'at fronts aspire to become influential Islamist lobbies in Washington. Mahmud Ahmad Ghazi, director of the International Islamic University in Islamabad, is an adviser to Pakistan's chief executive, General Musharraf. Ghazi personifies Islamist restrictions on the general's freedom of movement. Fluent not only in Urdu and English but in Arabic and French, Ghazi has been working for the ISI since student days, when he used to write reports on his teachers. Interviewed in a BBC film on the honor killing of women, in which Pakistan has established a sad record, Ghazi coldly defended those feudal practices as Islamic, an opinion Islamic scholars all over the world mostly dispute. Ghazi has been a guest speaker at meetings of extremist organizations in the United States. PARALLELS TO NORTH KOREA While North Korea is taking first steps to shed its image as a rogue state and reintegrate itself into the world community, Pakistan seems to be moving in the opposite direction. There are a number of parallels between these two states, which have, moreover, cooperated in weapons production. Both border on China and move in the Chinese orbit, North Korea by force of geography and history, Pakistan by choice (though geography plays an important role too). China, along with North Korea, has lent a helping hand to Pakistan's production of missiles and other arms, successfully offsetting Russian- aided Indian arms production. Pakistan's Ghauri missile is reported to be superior to India's Pritvit. According to British specialists, even the first test explosion of Pakistan's nuclear bomb in 1998 was more successful than the preceding Indian one. Though largely isolated for decades, North Korea was able to obtain U.S. weapons technology via Yugoslavia. Washington did not allow American arms producers to export their technology to "rogue" states such as Iran, Iraq, Libya, Syria, and North Korea. Several companies, however, found a way to circumvent this prohibition by having weapons produced in Yugoslavia, where plenty of cheap skilled labor was available. Selling such Yugoslav weapons (built with American licenses) to the rogue states was easy and profitable, because of Yugoslavia's prestige as a leader of the so-called nonaligned movement. A key person in this circumvention business was Slobodan Milosevic, then a banker in the United States. This was the beginning of his career, which led him to become president of Yugoslavia. In a similar pattern, Pakistanis have the ability to reproduce Chinese and Korean weapons and occasionally to improve on them. They have an abundance of engineers and a tradition of reproducing weapons. At the same time they have Arab customers waiting in line. Yugoslavia's prestige as a leader of nonalignment is matched by Pakistan's prestige as a power in the Muslim world. For decades Islamabad sought in vain to achieve this position. The breakthrough came with the successful nuclear test, which most Arab states hailed as a triumph of all Muslims. The rulers in Islamabad would probably scoff at a comparison with North Korea, for three main reasons: * First, Pakistan has a population of nearly 150 million, compared to North Korea's 23 million. * Second, the North Korean system is based on an ideology that has failed and is everywhere on its way out. By contrast, Jihadism is fresh and on the rise in several parts of the world. * Third and most important, Pakistanis believe themselves to have won a war against a superpower. The reference is to the Soviet failure in Afghanistan. In the Muslim world, it is a widespread belief that the defeat in Afghanistan brought about the fall of the Soviet empire. The ISI knows better than anybody else that this was not just an Afghan but a Pakistani feat. The CIA supplied the weapons to the ISI, which then distributed them to Afghans who were trained in Pakistan and often led into combat by Pakistani officers. Islamists all over are in the habit of saying that they have finished off one superpower, so why not bring the other (and only remaining) one down, too? Afghanistan-based Saudi terrorist Usama Bin Laden and his friends have sometimes said that the fight against the United States is easier than the one against the USSR. The Russians, they say, were poor fighters, and the Americans are of an even-lesser caliber. The Islamists claim to base this evaluation on their experience with U.S. troops in Somalia. ISI officers smile contemptuously at such boastful declarations by Arab Islamists. Pakistanis live with the self-assurance that they were the ones who made Soviet might crumble. They may not be planning to strike at the United States, but neither are they impressed by threats from Washington. During the 1991 Gulf War, some Pakistani troops were sent to shore up Saudi Arabia, a longtime friend. (In the 1980s two divisions of Pakistani troops were stationed in Saudi Arabia for several years, while the strength of other Pakistani military personnel in the kingdom was almost that of another division.) Aslam Beg, Pakistan's then commander in chief, said, however, that he did so only in compliance with his government's orders. If it were up to him, he would have sent the troops to Iraq to support Saddam Hussein. Later he led the protest against U.S. missile strikes at Bin Laden's hideouts in Afghanistan, claiming that two of the missiles fell on Pakistani territory and killed several citizens. Together with former ISI chief Hamid Gul, General Beg headed a demonstration in support of Bin Laden, warning the United States against taking any action against the Saudi fugitive. It would be a mistake to equate such Pakistani defiance with Arab rhetoric or Iranian drama. Pakistanis not only differ in mentality from their Middle Eastern neighbors but are also ahead in terms of industrial development. PROSPECTS: PAKISTAN ON THE FRONTLINE A strong section of Pakistan's educated class is in favor of reorientating the country's foreign policy. Pakistani academicians abroad even founded an association opposing nuclear armament, though for the common man the "Islamic bomb" is a sacred cow. Reorientation means primarily a mending of fences with India. In other words, Islamabad should abandon its irredentism in Kashmir and adventurism in Afghanistan, accept the role as a junior partner in relations with India, and seek to make the best of the situation. Such a limited role would allow the country to spend less on the military and use the money on education and economy. This kind of reasoning could be heard in the early seventies. Pakistanis were then extremely critical of military rule, which they regarded as the root cause of their misfortunes. A generation later many ask, what is wrong with this country, which only goes from bad to worse? There is a strong sense of despondency among Pakistan's elite, and that despondency, too, is now in its thirties. From Pakistan's military ruler, General Musharraf, come conflicting signals. The Jihadists watch him closely and tell him every day what they expect him to do and what not: intensify fighting in Kashmir, and do not force the Taliban to hand over Bin Laden! Musharraf rose in the Islamist machinery without being a party man, so everybody worries that he may be won over by the other side. The big question is whether he himself realizes what a definite choice between two options he has to make. If he continues the confrontation with India, using an international legion of "Jihadists" in Kashmir, there will be no improvement of relations with the United States and Europe. And the chances of success are less than dim, even if some Pakistani rockets do function better than the Indian ones, which is not sure. The same applies to the continuation of the infamous blasphemy law, used to terrorize the Christian minority, and the public justification of "honor killings" of women as "Islamic." With such barbarity, which is appalling to most Muslims on religious grounds, Pakistan cannot gain acceptance. Musharraf's Jihadist controllers rebuked him for having praised Kemal Ataturk, the founder of modern Turkey. Ataturk consolidated his rump state by forswearing Turkish expansionism and irredentism, and seeking to ameliorate relations with all neighbors. To this end he outlawed the militant Islamic Movement. Given the choice, more Pakistanis would advise Musharraf to follow the course of Ataturk rather than that of Bin Laden and his cohorts in Afghanistan and Kashmir. Once Pakistanis concentrate on education and the economy instead of developing weapons and exporting insurgencies, the potentially rich country cannot fail to gain the international recognition that is its due. The clue to the complexity of Pakistan's situation is provided by the Indian press, which is the best informed and also most perceptive as far as its problematic neighbor is concerned. Indian government propaganda and some of the media have presented images of Pakistan that are diametrically opposed to one another. The Indians have done so according to occasion, and in either case they have been right. In general, they present Pakistan as a hotbed of Jihadism. Addressing the United States and Russia, they warn of Pakistan as a terrorist menace, which is difficult to dispute. Addressing Iran, however, they have sometimes portrayed Pakistan as an outpost of Western anti-Islamism, and that portrayal is not wrong either. The Bhuttos, father (r. 1971-- 77) and daughter, did not really adopt such an anti-Islamist line; still, there was a potential for that, inasmuch as strong currents within their party, the PPP, were firmly secularist and wanted the country to adopt Kemalist policies. This tendency used to be strong in the military and continues to have more public backing than Jihadism. Shortly before his downfall, former Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif made a pathetic attempt to get out of the Jihadist spiderweb and change his country's foreign policy drastically. The foolhardy attempt was bound to fail because he lacked both military credentials and enough backing among the higher echelons of the armed forces. Besides, it is doubtful that the full portent of his last-minute attempt was understood in Washington. Khawaja Ziauddin Butt, just appointed by the prime minister as the new head of the ISI, was dispatched to Washington with the request for help in the reorientation. Instead of being a country that ought to be on the State Department's list of terrorist states, Pakistan offered itself for the opposite role, as a frontline state in the fight against Jihadism. There was something suicidal about this desperate attempt, and Sharif and his partisans almost lost their lives because of it. Whatever was held against them--corruption, the retreat from Kashmir and so forth--was eyewash. The real sin was to have attempted a radical reorientation of Pakistan's policies and to have joined the anti-Jihadist camp. Because of these extremely divergent tendencies, which are mutually exclusive and allow no compromise, Pakistan has never found the consensus required for healthy nation-building. For various reasons, this dispute has not escalated into open civil war, but it has kept the country engulfed in chaos and constant violence. Recently this turmoil has reached such proportions that some Pakistanis have begun to wish for an all-out civil war to resolve the issue. The situation could not be more volatile.n Pakistan - News and Discussion -7 - Naresh - 08-23-2006 <!--QuoteBegin-acharya+Aug 23 2006, 08:25 AM-->QUOTE(acharya @ Aug 23 2006, 08:25 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->Pakistan versus the Last Superpower - Underestimated Pakistanis May Be a Degree Too Self-Confident. http://www.questia.com/PM.qst;jsessionid=G...=o&d=5002386554 by Khalid Duran Khalid Duran, the publisher of Trans Islam Magazine in Washington, D.C., has written frequently for The World & I on Islam and the Arab world. When the British granted independence to their colonial empire in India in 1947, the Muslim-majority areas united as a new state separate from India, calling it Pakistan, which means "Country of the Pure." At that time it consisted of East and West Pakistan, <b>separated by <span style='font-size:14pt;line-height:100%'>*six thousand miles of Indian territory.</span></b> [right][snapback]56096[/snapback][/right]<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd--> <b>acharya Ji :</b> <b><span style='font-size:14pt;line-height:100%'>*</span></b> : Once a Paki always a Moron! Cheers <!--emo&:beer--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/cheers.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='cheers.gif' /><!--endemo--> Pakistan - News and Discussion -7 - ramana - 08-23-2006 x-posted based on discussion with Acharya ----------------- One thing to consider is that IROT was declared as a 'failing state' first in 1996 by a CFR report written by Geoffry Kemp, Robert Oakley, Teresita Schaffer et al. Since then a whole bunch of literature was produced saying that IROT is failing. Yes IROT was behaving as a 'failing state'. By every measure of good governance it was underperforming (being charitable) but Western intervention has prevented its collapse and brought about a consolidation of the ruling Punjabi TAP (Turo-Afghan-Persian) elite through the military in particular the Army. Reams have been written about how the Army is an institution and that the model to compare is it is the Praetorian Guard of the Roman Empire which militarized the Roman state . Look up google for Praetorian state and Pakistan. But there is an alternate explanation. I think that the Punjabi-TAP(PTAP) elite is like the 19th Century Prussian Junger class and that the TSP Military is only a vehicle for its dominance. The West Punjab core nation is to IROT as the Prussian core nation was to the German Bismarckian State. In other words its not just the Army but the whole PTAP elite that is the problem. It is possible to examine the political behavior of the PTAP elite thru the prism of the Prussian class-> homogenous class under imagined threat->espousing Nazism. Subsititue the threats of the German class with those imagined by the PTAP and you have 'enmo Hitlerian' totalitarian regime and throw in Islamic concepts of religious superiority and you have the Islamofascist state that we see today threaening the world stability thorugh its terror. -------------------------------------------- Pakistan - News and Discussion -7 - Guest - 08-23-2006 <!--QuoteBegin-Naresh+Aug 23 2006, 02:08 AM-->QUOTE(Naresh @ Aug 23 2006, 02:08 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin--> .. When the British granted independence to their colonial empire in India in 1947, the Muslim-majority areas united as a new state separate from India, calling it Pakistan, which means "Country of the Pure." At that time it consisted of East and West Pakistan, <b>separated by <span style='font-size:14pt;line-height:100%'>*six thousand miles of Indian territory.</span></b> <!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Nareshji, You surely realize that 1 Indian mile = 6 Pakistani miles? Right? <!--emo&:guitar--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/guitar.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='guitar.gif' /><!--endemo--> Pakistan - News and Discussion -7 - Guest - 08-23-2006 ramana, Pakistan is no where near collapse now. Situation is pretty good; everything is under control of Army and ret. Army. Even fundoos are well in control. They open and close tap as and when required, marriage between fundoos and army is doing wonders and combination will last. These people know how to handle 4 wives at one time. Even attack by any country, it will never end up like Iraq for sure. Society is very close and Islam is common bond. In Pakistan minority management was done properly. In Pakistan minority is a real minority and they are not like India's minority who are dictating terms and can retard India forever. As a nation, Pakistan has all resources to survive e.g. fertile land, sea. Donât forget oldest civilization started from part of Pakistan. I am more worried about India, don't forget all fundoo ideology started from India e.g. Wahhabi, deoband, Tablighi Jamaat. Pakistan - News and Discussion -7 - Naresh - 08-23-2006 <!--QuoteBegin-Viren+Aug 23 2006, 08:30 PM-->QUOTE(Viren @ Aug 23 2006, 08:30 PM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->Nareshji, You surely realize that 1 Indian mile = 6 Pakistani miles? Right? <!--emo&:guitar--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/guitar.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='guitar.gif' /><!--endemo--> [right][snapback]56108[/snapback][/right]<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd--> <b>Viren Ji :</b> Absolutely and Entirely â You have hit the nail on the head! Cheers <!--emo&:beer--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/cheers.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='cheers.gif' /><!--endemo--> Pakistan - News and Discussion -7 - ramana - 08-23-2006 <!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->ramana, Pakistan is no where near collapse now.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd--> Mudy, Where have I said the above. It is to explain the non failure of the state that I was discussing with Acharya and posted parts of our thoughts. Pakistan - News and Discussion -7 - Guest - 08-23-2006 <!--QuoteBegin-Naresh+Aug 23 2006, 11:08 PM-->QUOTE(Naresh @ Aug 23 2006, 11:08 PM)<!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-Viren+Aug 23 2006, 08:30 PM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Viren @ Aug 23 2006, 08:30 PM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->Nareshji, You surely realize that 1 Indian mile = 6 Pakistani miles? Right? <!--emo&:guitar--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/guitar.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='guitar.gif' /><!--endemo--> [right][snapback]56108[/snapback][/right]<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd--> <b>Viren Ji :</b> Absolutely and Entirely â You have hit the nail on the head! Cheers <!--emo&:beer--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/cheers.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='cheers.gif' /><!--endemo--> [right][snapback]56120[/snapback][/right] <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Indian strategist are aware of TAP IROTIANS. Was not there a article by BK few weeks ago stating the same and Indian abilty to destroy certain geographic area of Punjab using 300kt bums, thus shattering the core. IROT has bought time and Indian weakness is in inabilty to stop IROTIAN mentors providing the life support toTSP. The day we get the ability to disrupt the support ,end game will start. The day will come when one Indian ruppee is equal to 10 Pukian ruppee <!--emo&:blow--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/blow.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='blow.gif' /><!--endemo--> Pakistan - News and Discussion -7 - Guest - 08-24-2006 <b>'Won't go to Pak, let me die in India'</b> Pakistan - News and Discussion -7 - Guest - 08-24-2006 DO you think this guy can steal Railway Engine ? <!--emo&--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo--> Karachi, PAKISTAN: Pakistani policemen escort suspected Indian national Madan Lal to a court after he was arrested for stealing a railway engine, in Karachi 23 August 2006. A suspected Indian national stole a railway engine in Pakistan's southern city of Karachi and tried to drive it into a passenger train in an attempted terror attack, police said. The man drove the locomotive at full speed for 35 kilometres (22 miles) before officials managed to derail it and avert a possible disaster late 22 August, railway |