Dalits - Real Issues & Discussion

Dalits - Real Issues & Discussion - Printable Version

+- Forums (http://india-forum.com)
+-- Forum: Indian Politics, Business & Economy (http://india-forum.com/forumdisplay.php?fid=6)
+--- Forum: Indian Politics (http://india-forum.com/forumdisplay.php?fid=17)
+--- Thread: Dalits - Real Issues & Discussion (/showthread.php?tid=729)

Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17

Dalits - Real Issues & Discussion - acharya - 01-13-2006

Sort by date / Sort by relevance

On Point : The Warrior Caste - 4/8/2003
The Warrior Caste Listen Aired: Tuesday, April 08,
2003 US Marines (AP). Related Links. ...
www.onpointradio.org/shows/2003/04/20030408_b_main.asp - 20k - Cached

On Point : The New American Caste System - The New American Caste ...
The New American Caste System. Aired: Tuesday, April 26, 2005 8-9PM ET. ...
www.onpointradio.org/shows/2005/04/20050426_b_main.asp - 21k - Cached

On Point : Vietnam's Echoes 30 Years Later - Vietnam's Echoes 30 ...
... When to Kill The Connection 07/29/03. Â· The Warrior Caste On Point
04/08/03. Â· Winning Without Collateral Damage On Point 04/01/03.
www.onpointradio.org/shows/2005/04/20050429_a_main.asp - 18k - Cached

The Connection.org : Castes of Mind
In India, Dalits - or The Untouchables - still suffer rampant discrimination. Some
view their place in India#039;s caste system as a cultural inevitability. ...
www.theconnection.org/shows/2001/08/20010807_a_main.asp - 28k - Cached

wbur.org Arts - Books - White Mughals
This is a fascinating book on how 18th century Europeans lived in
conjugal harmony with high-caste South-Asian women. ...
www.wbur.org/arts/2003/49767_20030609.asp - 43k - 2005-07-19 - Cached

Dalits - Real Issues & Discussion - acharya - 01-13-2006

The Theory in the Crucible
http://www.saxakali.com/southasia/proof.htm

III

But it is really wrong to suppose that my theory is based on the solitary passage in the Mahabharata or on the identification of Paijavana with Sudas. Nothing of the kind. The thesis is not supported by a single chain and therefore the argument that a chain is not stronger than its weakest link does not apply to it. The case is supported by several parallel chains. The weakness of a link in one of them cannot be said to weaken the support. The weakness of one link in one chain throws the whole weight on other chains. Consequently, before concluding that the theory has broken down, it is necessary to prove that the other chains are not able to sustain the weight.

The description of Paijavana as Shudra and the identification of Paijavana with Sudas of the Rig Veda is not the only chain which supports the thesis. There are other chains. One of these is the admission in the Satapatha and Taittiriya Brahmanas that there were only three Varnas and the Shudras did not form a separate Varna. The second consists of evidence that Shubras were kings and ministers of State. The third consists of evidence that the Shudras were at one time entitled to Upanayana. All these are strong chains quite capable of taking all extra weight arising out of a possible breakdown of the first chain.

As for as evidence is concerned, absolute certainty amounting to demonstration is seldom to be had and I do not claim absolute
certainty for my thesis. But I do claim that the evidence in support of the theory is both direct as well as circumstantial, and where it is conflicting it is supported by strong probabilities in favour of it.

IV

I have shown what strength there is in the thesis I have presented. I will now proceed to show that the thesis is a valid one. There is one test which I think is generally accepted as the right one by which to ppraise the validity of a thesis. It is that a thesis which demands acceptance must not only suggest a solution, but must also show that the solution it proposes answers the riddles which surround the problem which it claims to have solved. It is this test that I propose to apply to my thesis.

Let me begin by listing in one place the riddles of the Shudra. The following include the most important of them:

(1) The Shudras are alleged to be non-Aryans, hostile to the Aryans, whom the Aryans are said to have conquered and made slaves. How is it then that the rishis of the Yajur Veda and the Atharva Veda should wish glory to the Shudras and express a desire to be in favour of the Shudras?

(2) The Shudras are said not to have the right to study the Vedas How is it then that Sudas, a Shubra, was the composer of the hymns of the Rig Veda?

(3) The Shudras are said to have no right to perform sacrifices. HOW is it that Sudas performed the Ashva-Medha sacrifice? Why does the Satapatha Brahmana treat the Shudra as a sacrificer and give the formula of addressing him7

(4) The Shudras are said not to have the right to Upanayana. If this was so from the very beginning, why should there be a controversy about it? Why should Eladari and the Samskara Ganapati say that he has a right to Upanayana?

(5) The Shudra is not permitted to accumulate property. How is it that the Maitrayani and Kathaka Samhitas speak of the Shudras being rich and wealthy?

(6) The Shudra is said to be unfit to become an officer of the State, How is it then that the Mahabharata speaks of Shudras being ministers to kings?

(7) It Is said that the duty of the Shudra is to serve, in the capacity of a menial, the three Varnas. How is it then that there Vat kings among the Shudras as testified by the case of Sudas and other cases mentioned by Sayana?

(8) If the Shudrn had no right to study the Vedas, if he had no right to Upannyana, if he had no right to sacrifice, why `,~ he not given the right to have his Upanayana, to read tbe Vedas and to perform sacrifice?

(9) The performance of Upanayana of the Shudra, his learning to read the Vedas, his performing the sacrifices, whether they were of any value to the Shudra or not, were certain! occasions of benefit to the Brahmins in sts much as it is the Brahmins who had the monopoly of officiating at ceremonies and of teaching the Vedas. It is the Brahmins who stood to earn large fees by allowing the Shudra the right to Upanayana, the performance of sacrifices and the reading of the Vedas. Why were the Brahmins so determined to deny these concessions to the Shudras, when granting them would have done no harm and would have increased their own earnings?

(10) Even if the Shudra had no right to Upenayana, sacrifices and Vedas, it was open to the Brahmins to concede him these rights. Why were these questions not left to the free will of the individual Brahmins? Why were penalties imposed upon a Brahmin if he did any of these prohibited acts?

How can these riddles be explained? Neither the orthodox Hindu nor the modern scholar has attempted to explain them. Indeed they do not seem to be aware of the fact that such riddles exist. The orthodox Hindu does not bother about them. He is content with the divine explanation contained in the Purusha Sukta that the Shudra was born from the feet of the Purusha. The modern scholar is content with the assumption that the Shudra in his origin is a non-Aryan aboriginal, for whom the Aryan quite naturally prescribed a different code of laws. It is a pity that none of these classes of people have cared to acquaint themselves with the riddles which surround the problem of the Shudra, much less have they thought of suggesting a theory of tt'e origin of the position of the Shudra culpable of solving them.

With regard to my thesis it will be seen that it can explain everyone of these riddles. Postulates (1) to (4) explain how the Shudrns could be kings and ministers slnd why the rishis should praise them and desire to be in their good books. Postulates (5) and (6) explain why there was a controversy over the Upanayana of the Shudra, also why the law not only denied the right to the Shudra but imposed penalties upon a Brahmin, helping to make it effective.

Indeed there is no riddle which the thesis does not solve. The thesis, if I may say so, is a close and a perfect fit. Few theses can therefore have a better title deed than this.

Dalits - Real Issues & Discussion - acharya - 01-13-2006

<img src='http://www.friesian.com/images/caste.gif' border='0' alt='user posted image' />

Dalits - Real Issues & Discussion - Guest - 01-16-2006

QUOTEhttp://www.hinduonnet.com/2001/08/27/stories/05272524.htm

Dalits and Durban - I
By P. Radhakrishnan

It may be your interest to be our masters, but how can it be ours to be your slaves? - Thucydides

THIS QUOTE with which Dr. B. R. Ambedkar, who exposed the numerous Hindu myths, mysticisms and mumbo-jumbo justifying the injustices of Indian society, and tried to instil in the vast masses of India's `outcasts' a sense of confidence, defiance, dignity, freedom, and hope, began his controversial work, `What Congress and Gandhi have done to The Untouchables', is as relevant today as in 1945 when he wrote it.

However, convinced as he was that India's pernicious caste practices have been part of the malignancy of Hindu society which can be extirpated only on Indian soil and only through social reforms and constitutional means, it cannot be gainsaid that in India's changed stature as a sovereign democratic republic Ambedkar himself would have found it ludicrous and even abhorrent to showcase caste, even as tableaux, in an alien land and through a world body of which India is a member-country. More so, as it was mainly because of Ambedkar's initiative as the chief architect of the Indian Constitution that the numerous safeguards for the untouchables and the other weaker sections were enshrined in the Constitution.

The reference is to the United Nations' World Conference Against Racism, Racial Discrimination, Xenophobia, and Related Intolerance, to be held in Durban, South Africa, from August 31 to September 7, the confusion and controversy about caste and race as discriminatory categories, and the furore in India and abroad on inclusion of caste in the conference.

Understanding the fallacies underlying this confusion and controversy, and their fallout for India calls for understanding the widely varying postures on caste and race by the proponents and opponents for inclusion of caste in the conference, and the role of the U.N. as a global ``do-gooder''.

Going by press reports, there has been widespread support through social mobilisation, meetings, conferences, and writings in the press for inclusion of caste in the conference. The most prominent and vociferous proponents are the ``Dalit activists'', who are a heterogeneous ensemble. The organisations purportedly representing them include the National Campaign for Dalit Human Rights, the Republican Party of India, People's Watch, the National Council of Churches in India - the highest body in the country representing different denominations of the Protestants - and so on.Â Whether the ``Dalit activists'' are leaders from among the Dalits, or non-Dalits feigning to be self-appointed Dalit leaders of pressure groups, or both is a moot issue. This issue is, however, very important for at least two reasons. One, if the Dalits could spawn such aggressive, articulate, globetrotting, and internationally acclaimed and influential leaders, they would have overcome long ago their precarious plight as the despised and the damned, the depressed and the downtrodden of the caste- ridden Indian society. Two, if evidence and experience are any indication, the ``Dalit cause'' is hard currency for ``Dalit activists'' operating in developed countries, though it is questionable how far the Dalits themselves have been beneficiaries of the Western dole.

Sources would have it that in Geneva several NGOs in special consultative status with the U.N. have been spearheading the movement for inclusion of caste on the agenda for the conference, and a number of organisations have joined forces to form the International Dalit Solidarity Network.

As notable among them are the World Council of Churches, the Lutheran World Federation, and similar organisations from Europe and the U.S., their involvement and vociferous claims are certainly grist to the Hindutva mill. While the initiative of the Church-related organisations is laudable and hopefully indicative of the revival of the long-dormant liberation theology, ignoring for the time being the Hindutva monster, one might ask what the Church-related organisations have been doing to overcome the discriminatory practices among the Indian Christians, in particular Christian converts of Scheduled Caste origin, the persistence of whose disabilities and plight as ``twice alienated'' have necessitated their organised demands for at least the last ten years for treatment as Scheduled Castes so as to enable them to take advantage of the State's affirmative action and special treatment programmes, though here again the initiative of the Church-related organisations has been commendable.

Whether by the Church Council or other organisations, the claims for inclusion of caste in the conference are of two broad streams. The first would have caste as race, caste as worse than race, caste discrimination as racism and more, and so on. The second would have Dalit oppression as worse than racial discrimination; Dalits as victims of centuries-old polluting and stigmatising occupations such as scavenging, persistent discrimination and atrocities, untouchability, social segregation and denial of access to public places and spaces forcing them to live at the margins of society; the history of Dalits as a genealogy of pain captured in the very etymology of the word, and so on.

While all this is true, the claim that the justification for inclusion of caste in the U.N. Conference is to ``internationalise'' Dalit discrimination, raises several issues. One, equating caste with race. As Professor Dipankar Gupta observed in his work `Interrogating Caste: Understanding Hierarchy and Difference in Indian Society', despite some commonalities between caste and race, particularly between the bottom end of the caste system and the segregationist racism, caste and race are vastly different, for which reason, they should not be collapsed into a single analytical category. Important among the differences are the caste system is about 3000 years old, extremely complex based on multiple hierarchies, characterised by the pervasive purity-pollution dichotomy, and graded discrimination. In contrast, racism is of recent origin, and as race is based on phenotypic criteria there can be no dispute about where one belongs in the race hierarchy.

Caste has been under extensive debate and indepth research for several decades now, and the literature on it is probably much more burgeoning than on race. Though race has also been under extensive debate and indepth research and Gunnar Myrdal's `American Dilemma', followed by Oliver Cromwell Cox's `Race: A Study in Social Dynamics' are still probably the most important works on racism, racism is predominantly an American and South African problem, and even here race relations have undergone tremendous changes during the last three decades. So, a U.N. Conference on caste or race or both may not add up.

Two, equating the caste system with Dalits, as if it comprises only Dalits and none else. This is political appropriation of the caste system by ``Dalit activists''. Though Dalits are certainly the worst victims of discrimination, and account for about one- fourth of India's population, their existential problem cannot be isolated from that of the rest of society.

Other traditional caste groups barring Brahmins and probably a few other upper castes have also been victims of the caste system. It is recognising this pervasive nature of discrimination, disparities, and disabilities, that the first all-India Backward Classes (Kaka Kalelkar) Commission of the 1950s recommended reservation for a separate category just above the Scheduled Castes; and it is in keeping with this recommendation that some States such as Tamil Nadu have created the Most Backward Classes category for reservation purposes.

(The writer is Professor, Madras Institute of Development Studies, Chennai.)

Dalits - Real Issues & Discussion - Guest - 01-16-2006

(fwd)

Quote:Dalit International -3

The buzz word is: Pluralism; the framework is 'Comparative Theology'

Pluralism becomes a framework for pushing dialogue of sorts and this dialogue gets framed under 'comparative theology' and the media don for this dialogue in USA on behalf of the Society of Jesuits (affiliated with Vatican) is Francis Xavier Clooney, S.J.

This part brings in the redoubtable Clooney, S.J. (Society of Jesuits) who wanted to mediate with Witzel & Co. on the California Sixth Grade Textbook Review. No wonder, the Department of Religious Studies in Harvard University is closely watching the involvement of Witzel & Co. in the review process.

The story begins from a press conference on 5 Septmebter 2000 addressed by Ratzinger who is the present Pope, in the context of the doctrinal document called Dominus Jesus. [quote] At a Vatican press conference on 5 September 2000 introducing the new statement, Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, Prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, said Dominus Jesus was a necessary response to "the theology of religious pluralism," which is growing "not only in theological circles, but also more generally in Catholic public opinion." Many people today, he observed, view the Church's traditional claim to be the unique and universal means to salvation as "a bit of fundamentalism which is an attack on the modern spirit and a menace to toleration and liberty. Because of that attitude, many people see ecumenical dialogue as an end in itself: "Dialogue - or rather the ideology of dialogue - becomes a substitute for missionary activity and for the urgency of an appeal to conversion." This mistaken notion of dialogue, Cardinal Ratzinger said, emphasises not a search for objective and absolute truth, but a desire to put all religious beliefs on the same plane. And such dialogue gives rise to a "false idea of tolerance," which rejects the possibility of any objective truth." [unquote] http://www.ad2000.com.au/articles/2000/oct2000p3_77.html

The word pluralism, again ! An answer to the jesuits' objection is provided by Clooney of Harvard University (Department of Religious Studies) who is a promoter of 'dialogue' even though he believes that non-christian souls are in peril: "Centuries of missionary work have not convinced them that their souls are in peril; they are not worried about their lack of union with Rome; they have no reason to revere the document as the work of a flawless magisterium; they will be amused or upset by its characterization of their traditions as gravely deficient; and they will want to know whether there are still good reasons why they should engage in dialogue with Roman Catholics, whatever reasons Catholics themselves might have." http://puffin.creighton.edu/jesuit/dialogu...ey_dominus.html , article originally printed in America, October 28, 2000.

http://tinyurl.com/dkwum

http://jitnasa.india-forum.com/Docs/ProAry...elsupporter.htm

So, how does the dialogue proceed with Clooney the Catholic priest leading the comparative congregation? Start comparing Mary with Abirami, S'ri and Devi. (See Francis X Clooney, 2005, Divine Mother, Blessed Mother -- Hindu Goddesses and the Virgin Mary, OUP). Heading a discipline in search of a method, the proposed dialogue becomes a way to celebrate Vatican version of pluralism, while denying the capability of any faith other than christism to save souls. Objective? S'rivaishnavam will be shown in comparative theology to be no different from christism ! Reducing pluralism to simple uniformity, christist version of uniformity.

Dominus Jesus doctrinal statement is contained in the document drafted by Ratzinger when he was Cardinal and it is available at http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congrega...s-iesus_en.html It is emphatic and brooks of no compromise. Let us see some quotes:

The Lord Jesus, before ascending into heaven, commanded his disciples to proclaim the Gospel to the whole world and to baptize all nations: "Go into the whole world and proclaim the Gospel to every creature. He who believes and is baptized will be saved; he who does not believe will be condemned" ( Mk 16:15-16); "All power in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Go therefore and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, until the end of the world" ( Mt 28:18-20; cf. Lk 24:46-48; Jn 17:18 ,20,21; Acts 1:8).

The Church's universal mission is born from the command of Jesus Christ and is fulfilled in the course of the centuries in the proclamation of the mystery of God, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, and the mystery of the incarnation of the Son, as saving event for all humanity. The fundamental contents of the profession of the Christian faith are expressed thus: "I believe in one God, the Father, Almighty, maker of heaven and earth, of all that is, seen and unseen. I believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ, the only Son of God, eternally begotten of the Father, God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God, begotten, not made, of one being with the Father. Through him all things were made. For us men and for our salvation, he came down from heaven: by the power of the Holy Spirit he became incarnate of the Virgin Mary, and became man. For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate; he suffered death and was buried. On the third day he rose again in accordance with the Scriptures; he ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father. He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead, and his kingdom will have no end. I believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life, who proceeds from the Father. With the Father and the Son he is worshipped and glorified. He has spoken through the prophets. I believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church. I acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins. I look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come". 1
2. In the course of the centuries, the Church has proclaimed and witnessed with fidelity to the Gospel of Jesus. At the close of the second millennium, however, this mission is still far from complete. 2 For that reason, Saint Paul's words are now more relevant than ever: "Preaching the Gospel is not a reason for me to boast; it is a necessity laid on me: woe to me if I do not preach the Gospel!" ( 1 Cor 9:16). This explains the Magisterium's particular attention to giving reasons for and supporting the evangelizing mission of the Church, above all in connection with the religious traditions of the world. 3 [Sources: (1) First Council of Constantinople, Symbolum Constantinopolitanum: DS 150. (2) Cf. John Paul II, Encyclical Letter Redemptoris missio, 1: AAS 83 (1991), 249-340. (3) Cf. Second Vatican Council, Decree Ad gentes and Declaration Nostra aetate; cf. also Paul VI Apostolic Exhortation Evangelii nuntiandi: AAS 68 (1976), 5-76; John Paul II, Encyclical Letter Redemptoris missio. ]

Gospel of Jesus and evangelizing mission are synonyms of proselytization. No wonder, when Dayananda Saraswati proposed during the Millennium Peace Summit under UN auspices for accepting of basic ground rules. "Religious conversion destroys centuries-old communities and incites communal violence," he said in an open letter to the Pope, and added, "In any tradition it is wrong to strike someone unarmed. Since certain religions and cultures do not convert, attempts to convert them are one-sided aggression."

http://www.hindunet.org/conversions/pope99...yananada_sa.htm His proposals were rejected outright and instead, the Dominus Jesus doctrine was proclaimed. http://www.millenniumpeacesummit.com/news020614.html

What has all this to do with Dalit International? Everything.

The cue of the Vatican version of 'dialogue' was picked up rapidly and a grand conference was organized following the Millennium Peace Summit. It was organized at Dublin and inaugurated by UN Secretary General, Kofi Annan. The Dublin conference, attended by over 250 people from the Western European region, and hosted by the Irish government, developed a set of common principles and recommendations on conflict prevention, called the 'Dublin Action Agenda' http://www.xs4all.nl/~conflic1/Dublin/Dubl...d%20version.pdf

One of the conference items discussed was: dalit, on the framework set forth in annual reports of USCIRF (United States Commission for International Religious Freedoms) within the rubric of 'human rights'. Thus, 'human rights' provides a complete cover for pushing the agenda of proselytizing 'dalit' as the vulnerable groups â vulnerable because of perceived socio-economic discriminations and vulnerable to inducements and forced conversions. The battle ground is clearly set: India, that is Bharat where a new social category called 'dalit' has been formulated by clever media and political propaganda. What started with the indological myth-making of 'caste' from the Portuguese word, 'casta' has now enlarged into another myth called 'dalit', an amorphous, undefined, but vulnerable groups in India.

How the Non-governmental organizations networked themselves into this UN-US supported initiatives of conflict resolutions and Religious freedoms provides the background for the new samajam: Dalit International as a band of globe-trotter proselytizers.

Dalits - Real Issues & Discussion - Guest - 01-16-2006

QUOTEDalit International -2

The buzz word is: Pluralism; the framework is 'Human Rights'

Yes, 'Human Rights' as espoused by the US Department of State through annual reports attributed to USCIRF. More on this on subsequent parts of the Dalit International.

What motivates and activates Dalit International into a solidarity network?

"All of this is being pushed by Christian groups, who regard Dalits as their most promising constituency. And it's money that attracts Indian converts to this malign programme. Do you imagine that people like Dayal would have ever otherwise travelled Club class, stayed in five-star hotels in NYC and rubbed shoulders with bona fide whites (not a racist in sight among them of course)? And the idea that societies like the US and UK where racism is rife, but its reportage wondrously controlled (I have thirty five years personal experience in Europe) is going to ensure equality for Dalits is laughable except that it is serious for the future integrity of India. These converts are not stupid, they are simply empowered by tainted money, the only way they could make a living and a very good one at that. In practice, few of them are employable to actually do a job of work." (Prof. Gautam Sen, in private communication, 16 Jan. 2006).

Pluralism is the smokescreen for the proselytization efforts couched as 'dalit international'.

This word makes for surprising concordance in the choice of phrases for two apparently disparate individuals: One is Diana Eck and the other is Mike Ghouse.

What links both of them? California Textbook Controversy <!--emo& Smile

--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' />âeither directly as in the case of Diana Eck or through Raju Rajagopal in the case of Mike Ghouse.

The title of the website is: Pluralism Project maintained by Diana Eck.

Diana Eck is Professor of Comparative Religion and Indian Studies; Director, The Pluralism Project in Harvard University. "In 1996, Diana L. Eck was appointed to a U.S. State Department Advisory Committee on Religious Freedom Abroad, a twenty-member commission charged with advising the Secretary of State on enhancing and protecting religious freedom in the overall context of human rights. In 1998, Eck received the National Humanities Medal from President Clinton and the National Endowment for the Humanities for her work on American religious pluralism. " http://www.pluralism.org/about/eck_cv.php

Many are the sources of funds for this project. "In the fall of 2000, the Pluralism Project was awarded a renewal grant from the Ford Foundation that enables us to continue our work documenting America's religious diversity. We will continue to fund affiliate departments and researchers, along with offering small teaching development grants for high school teachers." http://www.pluralism.org/about/history.php

Diana Eck keeps a close tab on the Witzel & Co. involvement in the California Sixth Grade Textbook review. The email exchanges and notes on the subject are rapidly posted on her website under the category called "Religious Diversity News -- California Textbook Controversy). http://tinyurl.com/cp69f
http://www.pluralism.org/news/index.php?xr...versy&sort=DESC

Mike Ghouse wears many hats. He is Director, United Nations Association - Promoting UNICEF and UN's Charter; and also Director, Pratham - Literacy for every child in India. Rings a bell? Pratham is an ace project of naxal groups in India for catching the children young and telling them that the greatest hero is KPN. Their association with AID Inc., Maryland or ASHA for Education charities based in USA is another long episode. He is also President of Foundation for Pluralism. He is Advisory Board Member ofÂ Free Muslims Coalition based in USA. See more at http://www.freemuslims.org/about/ghouse.php http://www.freemuslims.org/about/board.php Mike Ghouse is a muslim from Bangalore and moderates two lists: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/foundationforpluralism

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dallasindians

Mike Ghouse's most important link with India is provided by the fact that he is a sponsor of Promise of India Appeal in 2003. He signed his sponsorship on behalf of Foundation for Pluralism, Dallas, TX, USA. http://tinyurl.com/7827j http://www.promiseofindia.org/AppealList.c...eld=ALL&string=Â Promise of India is the initiative of Raju Rajagopal. Raju Rajagopal was an early supporter of the Witzel &Co. letters of Nov. 8 and Nov. 26 in regard to the California Sixth Grade Textbook review.

On DalitInternational list (Dalit Digest 869), Mike Ghouse introduced himself in the following ringing terms, in response to a query by Tamizh Selvan concerned about the appeal for attending the 12 January SBE meeting in California:

Message: 3
Â Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2006 11:48:01 +0530
Â From: "Thamizh Selvan.JM" < selvan@isac.gov.in>
Subject: Re: Give Hindus a fair chance

My Dear Mike,

Can they oppose the caste system and untouchability also?

Hindutva and their allies, Yes, they have been given 5 years rule min INDIA.

During this period what they have done to eliminate caste & untouchability?

Did they passed, or at least wanted pass a law to Ban caste system?

Did they wanted to pass a law, to 'Marriages within caste groups are
punishable by capitol punishment?' or wanted to pass a cover-up law to hold the caste, called 'Uniform civil code?'.

Where the Social inequality & untouchability, social pain and torture,
exists in full swing, the Uniform civil code' invariably remove the protection given by
the law to the suffering untouchables across the country!

It is up to you to you judge the intention of the so called HINDUTVA!

Mr.Mike, please bring out more details about you, and your view and sympathy
towards this forum.

Thanks!

Thamizh Selvan.JM

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Quoting Mike Ghouse < MIKEGHOUSE@aol.com>:

> All the "presumed" Hindu Fascist groups have an opportunity to clean
> their slate, and an opportunity to tell the truth about them. It
> should be very easy to make this part of their manifesto.
>
> That they believe in India.
> That they treat every Indian with "full" dignity.
> That they will un-subscribe to the extremist ideology.
> That they don't believe in supremacy of any Indian over the other.
> That they will oppose any idea that treats any Indian less than their
> own friends like Mr.Modi.
>
> Let's allways keep on mind that Hindutva has nothing to do with
> Hinduism. Hinduism is the universe that India is, Hindutva has
> members who are Hindu, but they coflict with the Pluralist ethos of
> Hinduism. Same as the fundamenatalist Christians or Muslims, who do
> not represent Islam in general.
>
> Mike Ghouse
> DallasIndians@yahoogroups.com
> FoundationforPluralism@yahoogroups.com

Dalits - Real Issues & Discussion - acharya - 01-18-2006

Interesting case of the "pot calling the kettle black"! Sandhya Jain claims
untouchability has originated from Islamic and Christian invasions to India ;-)

Consider the account of Fa hsein, a Chinese traveller in 4th-5th century CE:

"Throughout the whole country the people do not kill any living creature, nor
drink intoxicating liquor, nor eat only onions or garlic. The only exception is
that of the Chandalas, That is the name of those who are (held to be) wicked
men, and live apart from others. When they enter the gate of a city or market
place, they strike a piece of wood to make themselves known, so that men know
and avoid them, and do not come into contact with them. In that country they do
not keep pigs and fowl, and do not sell live cattle; in the markets there are no
butchers' shops and no dealers in intoxicating drink. In buying and selling
commodities, they use cowries. Only the Chandalas are fishermen and hutners, and
sell flesh meat." - Chapter XVI, "Mathura: Conditions and Customs of Central
India", Title: A Record of Buddhist Kingdoms, Author: Fa Hsein, pg 53.

AND WHERE DOES THIS UNTOUCHABILITY OF THE CHANDALAS COME FROM:

Manusmriti - Chapter 10:
http://www.hindubooks.org/scriptures/manus.../ch10_51_55.htm
(The above URL hosting a translation of Manusmriti is, not surprisingly, a
Hindutva website).

51. But the dwellings of Kandala and Svapaka shall be outside the village, they
must be made Apapatras, and their wealth (shall be) dogs and donkeys.

52. Their dress (shall be) the garments of the dead, (they shall eat) their
food from broken dishes, black iron (shall be) their ornaments, and they must
always wander from place to place.

53. A man who fulfils a religious duty, shall not seek intercourse with them;
their transactions (shall be) among themselves, and their marriages with their
equals.

54. Their food shall be given to them by others (than an Aryan giver) in a
broken dish; at night they shall not walk about in villages and in towns.

55. By day they may go about for the purpose of their work, distinguished by
marks at the king's command, and they shall carry out the corpses (of persons)
who have no relatives; that is a settled rule.

Both Manusmriti and Fa Hsein's travels date back to an era when Islam and
Christianity were absent in India.

Dalits - Real Issues & Discussion - acharya - 01-18-2006

The following is excerpted from the chapter "The Impact of Religiosity upon
Caste", in Volume IV - The Breakdowns of Civilizations, of A.J.Toynbee's "A
Study Of History" (1939).

-----------------------

IV. The Breakdowns of Civilizations

13. The Impact of Religiosity upon Caste

The Lucretian and Voltairean view that Religion in itself is an evil - and
perhaps the fundamental evil in human life - might be supported by citing, from
the annals of Indic and Hindu history, the sinister influence which Religion has
ascertainably and incontestably exercised, in the lives of two civilizations,
upon the institution of Caste. This institution, which consists in the social
segregation of two or more geographically intermingled groups of human beings or
social insects, is apt to establish itself wherever and whenever one community
makes itself master of another community without being able or willing either on
the one hand to exterminate the subject community or on the other hand to
assimilate it into the tissues of its own body social. In the recent history of
our own Western World a caste-division has arisen in the United States between
the dominant element of White race and European origin and the subject Negro
element ..... A similar caste-division has arisen between the two corresponding
elements in the population of the Union of South Africa ..... In the
sub-continent of India the institution of Caste seems to have arisen out of the
irruption of the Eurasian Nomad Aryas into the former domain of the so-called
"Indus Culture" in the course of the first half of the second millenium B. C.;
and in this Indian case the resulting situation has been still more unhappy than
it is in the two cases just cited; for in India there was not only an original
diversity of race between the dominant caste and the subject caste - a diversity
which has continued to produce its estranging effect socially and morally, long
after it has been physically obliterated - but the relative material power ofthe
two castes was in inverse ratio to their relative civilization. The Aryan
conquerors of the Indus Basin in the second millenium B. C. were barbarians,
like the "Dorian" conquerers of Crete and the Lombard conquerers of Italy, while
their victims, like the Minoans and the Romans, were the heirs of a once great
civilization. ....

..... In the Indian case, on the other hand, we may conjecture that from the
beginning the castes were distinguished by certain differences of religious
practice, since the Aryan intruders who constituted the dominant caste were
presumably still in the primitive social stage at which the religious and the
secular side of life are not yet distinguished from one another, and at which
the possession of a distinct and separate life as a community consequently
implies the practice of a distinct and separate religion as well. It is evident,
however, that this hypothetical religious ingredient in the original form of the
local Indian version of the institution of Caste must have been accentuated when
the Indic Civilization developed the religious bent which it has bequeathed to a
Hindu Society that is related to it by "affiliation". It is further evident that
this impact of Religiosity upon the Institution of Caste in India must have
aggravated the banefulness of the institution very seriously. Caste is always on
the verge of being a social enormity; but when Caste is "keyed up" by recieving
a religious interpretation and a religious sanction in a society which is
hag-ridden by Religiosity, then the latent enormity of the institution is bound
to rankle into a morbid social growth of poisonous tissue and monstrous
proportions.

In the actual event the impact of Religiosity upon Caste in India has begotten
the unparalleled social abuse of "Untouchability"; and since there has never
been any effective move to abolish or even mitigate "Untouchability" on the part
of the Brahmans - the hieratic caste which has become master of the ceremonies
of the whole caste-system and has assigned to itself the highest place in it -
the enormity survives, except in so far as it has been assailed by revolution.

The earliest known revolts against Caste are those of Mahavira the founder of
Jainism (occubuit prae 500 B. C.) and Siddhartha Gautama, the founder of
Buddhism (vivebat circa 567-487 B. C.): two creative personalities who were
non-Brahmans themselves and who ignored the established barriers of Caste in
recruiting the bands of disciples whom they gathered round them to wrestle with
the moral problems of the Indic "Time of Troubles". If either Buddhism or
Jainism had succeeded in captivating the Indic World, then conceivably the
institution of Caste might have been sloughed off with the rest of the social
debris of a disintegrating Indic Society, and an affiliated Hindu Civilization
might have started life free from this incubus. As it turned out, however, the
role of the universal church in the last chapter of the Indic decline and fall
was played not by Buddhism but by Hinduism - a parvenu archaistic syncretism of
things new and old; and one of the old things which Hinduism resuscitated was
Caste. Not content with resuscitating this old abuse, it embroidered upon it.
The Hindu Civilization has been handicapped from the outset by a considerable
heavier burden of Caste (a veritable load of karma) than the burden that once
weighed upon its predecessor; and accordingly the series of revolts against
Caste has run over from Indic to Hindu history.

In the Hindu Age these revolts have no longer taken the form of creative
philosophical movements of indigenous origin like Buddhism or Jainism, but have
expressed themselves in definite secessions from Hinduism under the attraction
of some alien religious sytem. Some of these secessions have been led by Hindu
reformers who have founded new churches in order to combine an expurgated
version of Hinduism with certain elements borrowed from alien sources. Thus, for
example, Kabir and the founder of Sikhism, Nanak, (vivebat A. D. 1469-1538)
created their syncretisms out of a combination between Hinduism and Islam, while
Ram Mohan Roy (vivebat A. D. 1772-1833) created the Brahmo Samaj out of a
combination between Hinduism and Christianity.the largest scale in districts in
which there had previously been a high proportion of members of low castes or
depressed classes in the local Hind It is noteworthy that, in all
these three syncretisms alike, the institution of Caste is one of the features
of Hinduism that has been rejected. In other cases the secessionsts have not
stopped at any half-way house but have shaken the dust of Hinduism off their
feet altogether and have entered outright into the Islamic or the Christian
fold; and such conversions have taken place on u population. The classic instance is the
latter-day religious history of Eastern Bengal, where the descendents of former
barbarians who had been admitted just within the pale of Hinduism on sufferance,
with an extremely low status, have become converts to Islam en masse.

This is the revolutionary retort to the enormity of "Untouchability" which has
been evoked by the impact of Religiosity upon Caste; and, as the masses of the
population of India are progressively stirred by the economic and intellectual
and moral ferment of Westernization, the trickle of conversions among the
outcasts seems likely to swell into a flood, unless the abolition of the stigma
of "Untouchability" is achieved at the eleventh hour by the non-Brahman majority
of the Caste-Hindus themselves, in the teeth of Brahman opposition, under the
leadership of the Banya Mahatma Gandi.

Dalits - Real Issues & Discussion - acharya - 01-18-2006

The following is excerpted from the chapter "The Impact of Religiosity upon
Caste", in Volume IV - The Breakdowns of Civilizations, of A.J.Toynbee's "A
Study Of History" (1939).

I have omitted the material on racism in the US of A and apartheid in South
Africa to keep focus on caste in Hinduism (as well as to keep this mail within
reasonable length).

Shiva Shankar.

-----------------------
IV. The Breakdowns of Civilizations

13. The Impact of Religiosity upon Caste

The Lucretian and Voltairean view that Religion in itself is an evil - and
perhaps the fundamental evil in human life - might be supported by citing, from
the annals of Indic and Hindu history, the sinister influence which Religion has
ascertainably and incontestably exercised, in the lives of two civilizations,
upon the institution of Caste. This institution, which consists in the social
segregation of two or more geographically intermingled groups of human beings or
social insects, is apt to establish itself wherever and whenever one community
makes itself master of another community without being able or willing either on
the one hand to exterminate the subject community or on the other hand to
assimilate it into the tissues of its own body social. In the recent history of
our own Western World a caste-division has arisen in the United States between
the dominant element of White race and European origin and the subject Negro
element ..... A similar caste-division has arisen between the two corresponding
elements in the population of the Union of South Africa ..... In the
sub-continent of India the institution of Caste seems to have arisen out of the
irruption of the Eurasian Nomad Aryas into the former domain of the so-called
"Indus Culture" in the course of the first half of the second millenium B. C.;
and in this Indian case the resulting situation has been still more unhappy than
it is in the two cases just cited; for in India there was not only an original
diversity of race between the dominant caste and the subject caste - a diversity
which has continued to produce its estranging effect socially and morally, long
after it has been physically obliterated - but the relative material power ofthe
two castes was in inverse ratio to their relative civilization. The Aryan
conquerors of the Indus Basin in the second millenium B. C. were barbarians,
like the "Dorian" conquerers of Crete and the Lombard conquerers of Italy, while
their victims, like the Minoans and the Romans, were the heirs of a once great
civilization. ....

..... In the Indian case, on the other hand, we may conjecture that from the
beginning the castes were distinguished by certain differences of religious
practice, since the Aryan intruders who constituted the dominant caste were
presumably still in the primitive social stage at which the religious and the
secular side of life are not yet distinguished from one another, and at which
the possession of a distinct and separate life as a community consequently
implies the practice of a distinct and separate religion as well. It is evident,
however, that this hypothetical religious ingredient in the original form of the
local Indian version of the institution of Caste must have been accentuated when
the Indic Civilization developed the religious bent which it has bequeathed to a
Hindu Society that is related to it by "affiliation". It is further evident that
this impact of Religiosity upon the Institution of Caste in India must have
aggravated the banefulness of the institution very seriously. Caste is always on
the verge of being a social enormity; but when Caste is "keyed up" by recieving
a religious interpretation and a religious sanction in a society which is
hag-ridden by Religiosity, then the latent enormity of the institution is bound
to rankle into a morbid social growth of poisonous tissue and monstrous
proportions.

In the actual event the impact of Religiosity upon Caste in India has begotten
the unparalleled social abuse of "Untouchability"; and since there has never
been any effective move to abolish or even mitigate "Untouchability" on the part
of the Brahmans - the hieratic caste which has become master of the ceremonies
of the whole caste-system and has assigned to itself the highest place in it -
the enormity survives, except in so far as it has been assailed by revolution.

The earliest known revolts against Caste are those of Mahavira the founder of
Jainism (occubuit prae 500 B. C.) and Siddhartha Gautama, the founder of
Buddhism (vivebat circa 567-487 B. C.): two creative personalities who were
non-Brahmans themselves and who ignored the established barriers of Caste in
recruiting the bands of disciples whom they gathered round them to wrestle with
the moral problems of the Indic "Time of Troubles". If either Buddhism or
Jainism had succeeded in captivating the Indic World, then conceivably the
institution of Caste might have been sloughed off with the rest of the social
debris of a disintegrating Indic Society, and an affiliated Hindu Civilization
might have started life free from this incubus. As it turned out, however, the
role of the universal church in the last chapter of the Indic decline and fall
was played not by Buddhism but by Hinduism - a parvenu archaistic syncretism of
things new and old; and one of the old things which Hinduism resuscitated was
Caste. Not content with resuscitating this old abuse, it embroidered upon it.
The Hindu Civilization has been handicapped from the outset by a considerable
heavier burden of Caste (a veritable load of karma) than the burden that once
weighed upon its predecessor; and accordingly the series of revolts against
Caste has run over from Indic to Hindu history.

In the Hindu Age these revolts have no longer taken the form of creative
philosophical movements of indigenous origin like Buddhism or Jainism, but have
expressed themselves in definite secessions from Hinduism under the attraction
of some alien religious sytem. Some of these secessions have been led by Hindu
reformers who have founded new churches in order to combine an expurgated
version of Hinduism with certain elements borrowed from alien sources. Thus, for
example, Kabir and the founder of Sikhism, Nanak, (vivebat A. D. 1469-1538)
created their syncretisms out of a combination between Hinduism and Islam, while
Ram Mohan Roy (vivebat A. D. 1772-1833) created the Brahmo Samaj out of a
combination between Hinduism and Christianity. It is noteworthy that, in all
these three syncretisms alike, the institution of Caste is one of the features
of Hinduism that has been rejected. In other cases the secessionsts have not
stopped at any half-way house but have shaken the dust of Hinduism off their
feet altogether and have entered outright into the Islamic or the Christian
fold; and such conversions have taken place on the largest scale in districts in
which there had previously been a high proportion of members of low castes or
depressed classes in the local Hindu population. The classic instance is the
latter-day religious history of Eastern Bengal, where the descendents of former
barbarians who had been admitted just within the pale of Hinduism on sufferance,
with an extremely low status, have become converts to Islam en masse.

This is the revolutionary retort to the enormity of "Untouchability" which has
been evoked by the impact of Religiosity upon Caste; and, as the masses of the
population of India are progressively stirred by the economic and intellectual
and moral ferment of Westernization, the trickle of conversions among the
outcasts seems likely to swell into a flood, unless the abolition of the stigma
of "Untouchability" is achieved at the eleventh hour by the non-Brahman majority
of the Caste-Hindus themselves, in the teeth of Brahman opposition, under the
leadership of the Banya Mahatma Gandi.

Dalits - Real Issues & Discussion - Guest - 01-18-2006

I have been receiving stuff in email about dalits and as we had discussed a long time ago regarding the crime statistics which was thoroughly debunked, I think similar things need to be done for other stats. Comparative study by GoI is a must with the so called advanced societies who have a real liking for 'studying' other societies.

Anyways, here is the latest claim that I have received in email.

QUOTEIn 2000, at the all India level, the poverty level for SCs, and the STs was 37% and 45% respectively; this was much higher than the Non SC/STs (20%).

Not true. It is not 20%. It is 27%.

QUOTEThe prevalence of hunger also highest for the SCs and the STs than that of other communities. More than half children belongs to the SCs and the STs are undernursihed (54% for SCs and 56% for STs) and about 44% of children belongs to other communities are undernurshied. 

Again, not true. It is not 44. It is 47%.

In both the above cases the numbers show a huge variation which dalitists will never say. For example, in my home state Gujarat, 32% rural SCs lived below poverty line in 1993, while in Bihar the corresponding number was 70%. Corresponding numbers for year 2000 are 17% for Gujarat and 59% for Bihar.

------------------------

Comparative study from US.

For example, black poverty rate in 2003 was 24%. Whites were sitting pretty at 8%. Median income of whites 48K. Blacks 30K. Whites without insurance coverage 10%. Blacks 19%.

http://www.census.gov/Press-Release/www/re...lth/002484.html

Dalits - Real Issues & Discussion - Guest - 01-18-2006

Then people complain about education of 'dalits'. Here is how it goes..

QUOTEThis goal has been measured by the literacy rate and gross enrolment rate.Â According to Census 2001, the literacy among SCs and STs are lower than others. Again only half population belongs to SCs and STs are literate than about 70% of population literate belongs to others. In case of enrollment there was little higher for SCs than compare to others.Â 

1. Why isnt anybody saying ..

QUOTEThe Crude Literacy Rate (defined as percentage of literates among the total population) of Scheduled Castes increased from 10.27 in 1961 to 45.20 in 2001 registering an increase of 34.9 percentage points in the last forty years. The crude literacy of Scheduled Tribes was 8.53% in 1961, which increased to 38.41% in 2001 registering an increase of 29.88 percentage points in the last forty years.

2. Why isnt anybody saying..

QUOTEThe literacy percentage of SC/ST when compared with the literacy percentage of other communities other than SCs /STs during 1991 & 2001 reflects that the literacy gap has decreased from 20.28 in 1991 to 14.12 in 2001 in respect SCs and from 28.09 in 1991 to 21.71 in 2001 in respect of STs to other than SC/ST,

3. Why isnt anybody saying..

QUOTEEnrolment: Enrolment of SC and ST students has increased faster than the enrolment of all categories in Primary, Upper Primary, Secondary/Senior Secondary and Higher Education levels during the period 1995-96 to 2002-2003/2001-02. More so, percentage increase of ST enrolment is faster than that of SC enrolment.

--------------------------

And for comparision, 80% blacks finish high school compared to 89% non-hispanic white. Bachelors degree numbers are 17 and 30% resp..

http://www.census.gov/prod/2004pubs/p20-550.pdf

-------------------------

We should collect more such claims and give the exact numbers sans the spins put on by Amanpour types. This area is a biggest psyops on India and needs to be countered.

Dalits - Real Issues & Discussion - Guest - 01-19-2006

another point of comparision..

QUOTEThe prevalence of hunger also highest for the SCs and the STs than that of other communities. More than half children belongs to the SCs and the STs are undernursihed (54% for SCs and 56% for STs) and about 44% of children belongs to other communities are undernurshied. 

for the US

http://www.centeronhunger.org/hunger/facts.html

QUOTEBlack and Hispanic households had food insecurity prevalences that were at least 2.5 times those of White (non-Hispanic) households.

Dalits - Real Issues & Discussion - Guest - 01-19-2006

on inequities in child care it is alleged

QUOTEAccording to NFHS-II, The levels of IMR for the SCs at All India level was about 83 per thousand live births and for the STs was 84 which was considerably higher than for the Non SC/STs (68 per thousand). 

in the US for comparision..

<img src='http://www.mchb.hrsa.gov/chusa03/images/p25.gif' border='0' alt='user posted image' />

other data at

http://www.mchb.hrsa.gov/chusa03/pages/status.htm

Dalits - Real Issues & Discussion - acharya - 01-19-2006

http://www.mtholyoke.edu/acad/intrel/caste.htm

Dalits - Real Issues & Discussion - Guest - 02-16-2006

We had discussed Thorat's paper earlier in this thread. He is now the UGC chairman..

http://www.indianexpress.com/full_story.php?content_id=87422

Dalits - Real Issues & Discussion - Guest - 02-17-2006

QUOTE(Mudy @ Feb 16 2006, 09:43 AM)<div class='quotetop'>QUOTESecularists left speechless 
Pioneer.com
The ancient rituals of tribals at the Shabri-Kumbh Magh Mela proves they are Hindu, says Tarun Vijay

Something unbelievable is happening in the forested tribal areas of south Gujarat, the Dangs. I see miles after miles of people coming down the hills and village roads making it almost impossible to drive up to the venue where Shabri Kumbh - commemorating the legend of Shabri - is being held.

Till Saturday afternoon, more than 3.5 lakh tribals from every nook and corner - from the far Northeastern States to Port Blair and Uttaranchal to Kerala - had arrived. At midnight, they were still reaching from places as far away as Itanagar in Arunachal. It's a unique event in the tribal history post-independence India, and its magnitude is difficult to measure for a reporter who is able to see only a part of the whole even after a hectic day-long tour around the five sq km stretch of the venue on the full moon day of the month of Magh.

Why should tribals feel threatened in a nation whose Constitution provides protection to their cultural and religious identity? It is so "because the constitutional provisions have not been used effectively so far", says Mr Jagdeo Ram Oraon, a tribal leader from Chhattisgarh and president of the largest NGO working among tribals, the Vanavasi Kalyan Ashram. Mr Oraon who is also chairing the Shabri Kumbh Committee. "We are not against any religion or institution, but are trying to put our own house in order. What's the fuss about?" he asks.

Later in the evening, I meet the lady pastor of the local CNI church. Her grandfather was the first pastor of the same church established in 1932. She says they have nothing to fear from such gatherings as the tribals are always non-violent though there are bad memories of a few incidents that occurred in 1998 in this region. This time the administration has given them full protection. "It's the media reports that make us anxious," she said. And she was right. In spite of everything remaining peaceful, a section of the media tried to create fear amongst the Christians.

It is noteworthy that the tribals have fought more than hundred recorded battles against the British led by heroes like Alluri Sitaram Raju, Birsa Munda, Sidho, Kanho Chand and Bhairon, Pazhsi Raja and Rani Gaidinliu. Without exception, all of them had to resist the onslaught of Christian missionaries, too, as the battle against the British also meant battling to safeguard their religion.

Take the example of Rani Gaidinliu of Nagaland. She had led a heroic guerrilla war against the British and when defeated by the mightier army, was rewarded life imprisonment by means of a "fair trial" -- all this when she was just 16. Nehru met her in Kohima jail and wrote poetically about her heroism calling her "fit to be a Rani", hence the title of Rani.

After independence, it took Nehru more than a year to see her out of jail. Indira Gandhi awarded her the Padma Bhushan and also a tamra patra in the silver jubilee year of independence. But Kohima church and the Christian leaders of the NSCN opposed vehemently when there was a proposal to have her statue installed in Kohima after her death because she had declared her Heraka and Zeliangrong movements Hindu and had refused to convert to Christianity.

In order to convert a tribal, his beliefs, customs and deities are condemned, pronounced "incapable of providing salvation"; his entire worldview is sought to be replaced with Romanised concepts and ways of worship. It was the fear of this aggression that made Congress leader and current Chief Minister of Arunachal Pradesh create a Dony Polo mission. He also began motivating tribal public educational institutions so that his people were saved from conversion.

Shabri, who waited a lifetime to welcome Ram, is believed to have treated the Lord with her part-eaten wild berries in the Dangs (derived from Dandakaranya) according to the beliefs of the local tribal population. Surely, she has emerged as the most powerful icon of tribal-nontribal harmony, the legend thus helping the evolution of a unique cultural chemistry.

The same place is today witnessing a powerful assertion of tribal rights to protect their identity and culture. They have given an unambiguous call to their converted brethren to return to their original fold. "We are not giving a call to the citizens of Vatican to convert to Hinduism, but calling our own people back," asserts Morari Bapu, world-renowned preacher. In the village of Shabri, it was an unprecedented sight: Revered Shankaracharyas, sannyasins and Brahmins were embracing the tribals and seeking forgiveness if they had been wronged in the past.

But the secular Taliban-like voices refuse to see anything good happening to Hindus. They tried their best to ban Shabri Kumbh, some media persons surveyed the venue in advance and the prophets of doom declared the programme a threat to environment.

Those who merrily lauded the fraud of Benny Hinn, went hammer and tongs against a great Hindu event. But all of them have been silenced by the grandeur and peaceful conclusion of the biggest expression of tribal assertion in our history. This is also the beginning of a new order, which declares: Come what may, obstructionist politics of hate cannot stop the march of the indigenous people.


Great event is over and no news in mainstream media.
[right][snapback]46849[/snapback][/right]
</div>

Dalits - Real Issues & Discussion - Guest - 02-27-2006

http://www.india-seminar.com/2005/549/549%...kar%20gupta.htm

Limits of reservation
dipankar gupta

OVER the years reservations have become the standard format for groups
demanding equality of results. There is a great degree of political pressure
to extend reservations to include communities other than Scheduled Castes
(SCs) and Scheduled Tribes (STs). On the other hand there is little attempt
to reflect upon what reservations were meant to achieve and, indeed, to
review this policy which has been in operation for over 50 years. In order
to accomplish this task it is necessary to contextualize reservations within
the framework of democratic governance. Only then can we adequately finesse
it or plot its future.

With the gradual ascendance of primordial politics and the tendency to think
of vote banks along caste lines, the necessity for critically assessing
reservations has been put aside. No doubt, this requires a serious
intellectual engagement that does not quite fit in with the exigencies of
populist, short term politics. This is why, for the most part, reservations
have become a kind of holy cow in public circles. Nobody dare question its
relevance, and, what is worse, many are more than willing to extend
reservations to cover other groups by arguing that they had been victims of
some kind of historic injustice.

Without a doubt, while some classes, categories and communities in society
have enjoyed privileges, perhaps for centuries, there have been others that
have faced discrimination of one sort or the other, either in recent times
or in history. If one were to grant reservations to all of them, then it
would be very difficult to establish a democratic society where the
individual is paramount, and where rewards and social worth are judged on
the basis of individual accomplishment. The argument that is often put
against such assessments of individual worth is that when groups have been
downtrodden and exploited for centuries then the scope for considerations on
merit must make room for social equality. Before we talk of the individual,
is it not important to take care of poverty first?

At this point an important clarification needs to be issued. Reservations
should not be construed as an anti-poverty programme, as a stand in for
poverty eradication interventions. Programmes that attack poverty should
continue independent of reservations because there are poor people in all
castes and religious groups. Therefore, it is unjustifiable to either hold
back anti-poverty programmes for the sake of reservations, or to hold back
reservations for the sake of anti-poverty programmes. The two are indeed
quite distinct and should be kept that way.

At first sight, reservations may look like an anti-poverty measure. This is
because the target community is usually very poor. There is a strong
statistical correlation between being a member of a particular caste, tribe
or religious community, and being poor. For this reason the cultural mark of
ascription serves the purpose well for it is a ready reckoner in determining
who are to be the beneficiaries of reservations. If, in this process, a few
well to do families get an undue advantage, then so be it. This is a minor
matter in the light of the fact that an overwhelming majority of people
belonging to a certain group or community are wretchedly poor and, what is
more, this poverty is the result of grave historic injustices against them.

So poverty, as such, is not what reservations are contending against.
Reservations are to create a sense of confidence and self-worth among people
who, through history, had been victims of the most heinous forms of
discrimination. They are meant for those who have no socially valuable
assets whatsoever. Only an unrealist romantic might believe that skinning
leather, or scavenging, has a high social and moral content. A leather
worker or a scavenger suffers from no such illusions. These communities, and
some others too, were not allowed in tradition to develop social skills and
assets that would help them advance socially.

This handicap weighs heavily on them even today. Therefore, they need
positive discrimination to get that extra push to move up and claim their
rightful position in a democratic society. This is how reservations were
supposed to increase fraternity and broad-base democracy. As we all know,
liberty can be established by law, equality by dictat, but for fraternity to
happen it requires a substantial realization of citizenship. The founding
figures of the Indian constitution knew this problem only too well. In fact,
this was the subject of Dr. Ambedkar's famous speech on 26 November 1949.

As reservations are not meant to replace anti-poverty programmes but to
instill self-confidence and courage among those who had been historically
disprivileged, they should not be used loosely to address people and groups
who are simply poor. Reservations are really about fraternity and not about
equality of economic status. Therefore, this policy is best applied when
crippling poverty is accompanied by the historical dispossession of social
assets. As this is not true of peasant castes, as most of them possess
socially valuable assets, the policy of reservations should not have been
extended to them as the Mandal commission did. Mandal beneficiaries have
rural infrastructural assets, plus political power, and have never faced
discrimination of the kind that SCs and STs have.

Why is it that those who press for extending the scope of reservations never
really raise issues that relate to economic development? After B.R.
Ambedkar, rarely do we come across Dalit activists who demonstrate any
concern with problems relating to the structure of economic relations. They
are more interested in the issue of identity and, consequently, their
energies tend to focus around the politics of reservation (Vora 2004: 283;
see also Shah 2001). Rarely, if ever, have they voiced strong opinions
regarding capitalism, globalization, agro-industrial development and, sadly,
about the quality of education and training available to Dalits across the
country. In fact, quite often, some of the Dalit activists tend to believe
that these are matters that take attention away from their major concern,
viz., reservations. That it is important to enable Dalits to acquire skills
and assets that are socially valuable so that they can compete as equals, in
the not too long run, is not seriously entertained.

The beneficiaries of reservations so far have been across different classes.
There is no doubt that there are today a much larger number of Dalits in
Grade I services than what was the case after Independence. According to
current estimates Dalits occupy a little more than 12% of Grade I positions
in the public sector. As one goes down the ladder the number of Dalits keeps
increasing till we come to the Grade IV level where they are actually
over-represented.

These figures are very interesting and most striking is the increasing
presence of Dalits in Grade I services over the past 50 years. Soon after
independence the proportion of Dalits in Grade I services was hovering
around 1%. Today it is over 12% (Ministry of Statistics and Programme
Implementation, 2002-3) and before long it will become 17%, which is roughly
equivalent to the proportion of their population in the country.

In terms of finessing reservations so that the policy is just and fair and
is not easily shot down by its detractors, it is necessary that the 'creamy
layer' among SCs and STs be taken off the list. If these positions are
blocked in perpetuity by those families that have succeeded in coming to the
top, then there is no room for further upward mobility among SCs and STs who
have not been as fortunate so far. The criteria for deciding who among SCs
and STs are in the 'creamy layer' can be the same as for OBCs, but perhaps
with greater objectivity (see Report of the Expert Committee 1993). This is
because unlike many OBCs who own land, SCs and STs, in the main, do not own
agrarian property. So the criteria will primarily be based on incomes from
urban jobs in the public sector.

Different communities and classes have different sets of aspirations. Now
that the elite among SCs have experienced what it is to be among the better
off in the public sector, their outlook has undergone a change. Like other
well to do classes their ambition is now to be in the private sector which
has all along been rather exclusivist in its recruitment policies. The
private sector is not a homogeneous unit. There are numerous enterprises,
big and small, that constitute the private sector. Obviously, when referring
to the private sector, the reservationists are aiming their sights at high
end jobs in major multinational and other Indian listed companies.

The fact is that most private sector companies have serious problems
regarding their hiring policy. Very few of them have a transparent system of
recruitment. In most cases it is the network that counts. This network
excludes certain people rather than discriminates against them. In other
words, regardless of one's caste background, if the network is not
supportive of the applicant then the chances of making it to the post are
extremely limited.

Rarely does one see regular advertisements for jobs in the private sector.
This is primarily because employers in these companies generally prefer
applicants that are recommended. They are reluctant to go to the open market
to search for prospective employees. This smacks of a lack of
professionalism, which is why their plea of upholding standards sounds
hollow to many. Most private sector organizations choose only between those
who are network recommendees. This excludes a vast majority of potential
applicants from any active job consideration in such organisations.

So it is not as if SCs and STs are purposively discriminated against.
Perhaps SCs and STs do not make it to the private sector because they lack
those critical network connections. Otherwise, in a large number of major
private companies, particularly the transnationals and multinationals, there
is no real interest regarding the caste background of a person. In fact, if
anything, there is a strong possibility that Muslims would be discriminated
against, especially in family run private organizations.

But to get back to the earlier point about caste based discrimination, it
must be said that private sector executives, in general, are wary of
employing anyone who has not come to them through their networks. So even
those who are not SCs or STs, but lack network connections will be
discriminated against. To think that private sector employers go out of
their way to ascertain the caste of their prospective employees is,
generally, wide off the mark. The rule of thumb for private sector
recruitment in most cases is: no network connections, no jobs.

Nevertheless, is it proper to enforce reservation quotas in the private
sector as well? To recall Ambedkar, reservations for SCs and STs were meant
to enlarge the scope of fraternity. As we mentioned earlier, fraternity is a
collective project, quite unlike equality and liberty. The state has to be
the prime mover in all attempts to shore up fraternity for it can neither be
established by law nor through unmediated market forces. Given the onus on
the state to get fraternity off the ground it is necessary that the public
sector takes the responsibility for reservations and for affirmative action.

Affirmative action includes policies that advocate representation of
different communities and groups, and not just caste. In addition,
affirmative action also encourages and rewards those companies and
institutions that get state funding when they show a satisfactory mix of
communities on their employment rolls. The ingredients of this mix are
generally left open which is why the quota system, as in reservations, is
resisted in affirmative action. Thus, even though affirmative action is not
the same as reservations, in this case too it is the state that plays the
lead role for the policy applies only to the public sector and those who
depend on state funding. This version of affirmative action is best
exemplified in America.

Those who have had the benefit of reservations in the public sector acquire
socially valuable assets in a generation or two. Subsequently, it is not
fair for them to seek further reservations anywhere else. That would go
against the spirit of the policy of reservations. It is possible to suggest
that reservations should be continued in the public sector to make sure that
a critical number of SCs and STs have truly benefited from them. But after
that the rationale for reservations simply disappears.

To argue that as long as there is prejudice there should be reservations is
simply incorrect. Prejudice can never be fought with policies. Prejudice can
be contained when there are proper laws that are intolerant of
discrimination. But most significantly, prejudice is best combated when its
victims are strong enough to take the battle up to the victimizers in the
court of law. Reservations were meant to create this strength and confidence
among SCs and STs.

Unfortunately, prejudice lurks everywhere. If some people are able to escape
prejudicial and discriminating treatment against them it is because they are
strong enough to hit back. There are prejudices against linguistic groups,
against regional backgrounds, against religious communities, against sects,
and against those who have different dietary preferences, and so on. In most
of these instances there is no need for special social policies as the
people concerned are both willing and able to stand up for their rights.
Likewise, the SC and ST elite should set the trend in their communities and
fight back against discrimination with all the legal and constitutional
means at their disposal. This is ultimately how attitudes against Dalits
will cease to be expressed in social practice, whether or not prejudice
exists at multiple personal points.

Instead of asking for reservations in the private sector, Dalits would do
better to call the bluff of reservationists. They should make clear that
they refuse to be fobbed off with the standard reservation format but would
want better training and education standards for that would be their most
trusted guarantor for success. This would not only help to fill the reserved
posts that are lying vacant for want of qualified Dalit candidates, but
would also open up more avenues for members of these communities in their
drive to live better and more fulfilling lives.

References

Report of the Expert Committee for Specifying the Criteria for
Identification of Socially Advanced Persons Among the Socially and
Economically Backward Classes, Ministry of Welfare, New Delhi, 10 March 1993
.

Ghanshyam Shah, 2001, 'Dalit Movements and the Search for Identity', in
Ghanshyam Shah (ed.), Dalit Identity and Politics: Cultural Subordination
and the Dalit Challenge, vol. 2, Sage, New Delhi.

Rajendra Vora, 2004, 'Decline of Caste Majoritarianism in Indian Politics',
in Rajendra Vora and Suhas Palshikar (ed.), Indian Democracy: Meanings and
Practices, Sage, New Delhi.

Dalits - Real Issues & Discussion - Guest - 03-04-2006

Do Hindu American Edits Whitewash Untouchability in California School Textbooks? FOSA spreads False Propaganda.

by Vishal Agarwal

Tiny URL is http://tinyurl.com/hdse8

Dalits - Real Issues & Discussion - Guest - 03-20-2006

This Thomas fellow needs to be researched.

http://www.sulekha.com/news/ThreadComment.aspx?cid=612896

QUOTEWhy do India's Dalits hate Gandhi?
By Thomas C. Mountain
Online Journal Contributing Writer

http://onlinejournal.com/artman/publish/article_603.shtml

Mar 17, 2006, 12:49

Email this article
Printer friendly page

In India, supposedly the world's largest democracy, the leadership of the rapidly growing Dalit movement have nothing good to say about Mohandas K. Gandhi. To be honest, Gandhi is actually one of the most hated Indian leaders in the hierarchy of those considered enemies of India's Dalits or "untouchables" by the leadership of India's Dalits.

Many have questioned how could I dare say such a thing? In reply I urge people outside of India to try and keep in mind my role as the messenger in this matter. I am the publisher of the Ambedkar Journal, founded in 1996, which was the first publication on the Internet to address the Dalit question from the Dalits' viewpoint. My co-editor is M. Gopinath, who includes in his c.v. being managing editor of the Dalit Voice newspaper and then going on to found Times of Bahujan, national newspaper of the Bahujan Samaj Party, India's Dalit party and India's youngest and third largest national. The founding president of the Ambedkar Journal was Dr. Velu Annamalai, the first Dalit in history to achieve a Ph.d in Engineering. My work with the Dalit movement in India started in 1991 and I have been serving as one of the messengers to those outside of India from the Dalit leaders who are in the very rapid process of organizing India's Dalits into a national movement. The Dalit leadership I work with received many tens of millions of votes in the last national election in India.

With that out of the way, lets get back to the 850 million-person question, why do Dalits hate M.K. Gandhi?

To start, Gandhi was a so-called "high caste". High castes represent at small minority in India, some 10-15 percent of the population, yet dominate Indian society in much the same way whites ruled South Africa during the official period of Apartheid. Dalits often use the phrase Apartheid in India when speaking about their problems.

The Indian Constitution was authored by Gandhi's main critic and political opponent, Dr. Ambedkar, for whom our journal is named and the first Dalit in history to receive an education (if you have never heard of Dr. Ambedkar I would urge you to try and keep an open mind about what I am saying for it is a bit like me talking to you about the founding of the USA when you have never heard of Thomas Jefferson).

Most readers are familiar with Gandhi's great hunger strike against the so called Poona Pact in 1933. The matter which Gandhi was protesting, nearly unto death at that, was the inclusion in the draft Indian Constitution, proposed by the British, that reserved the right of Dalits to elect their own leaders. Dr. Ambedkar, with his degree in law from Cambridge, had been chosen by the British to write the new constitution for India. Having spent his life overcoming caste-based discrimination, Dr. Ambedkar had come to the conclusion that the only way Dalits could improve their lives is if they had the exclusive right to vote for their leaders, that a portion or reserved section of all elected positions were only for Dalits and only Dalits could vote for these reserved positions.

Gandhi was determined to prevent this and went on hunger strike to change this article in the draft constitution. After many communal riots, where tens of thousands of Dalits were slaughtered, and with a leap in such violence predicted if Gandhi died, Dr. Ambedkar agreed, with Gandhi on his death bed, to give up the Dalits right to exclusively elect their own leaders and Gandhi ended his hunger strike.

Later, on his own death bed, Dr. Ambedkar would say this was the biggest mistake in his life, that if he had to do it all over again, he would refuse to give up Dalit only representation, even if it meant Gandhi's death.

As history has shown, life for the overwhelming majority of Dalits in India has changed little since the arrival of Indian independence over 50 years ago. The laws written into the Indian Constitution by Dr. Ambedkar, many patterned after the laws introduced into the former Confederate or slave states in the USA during reconstruction after the Civil War to protect the freed black Americans, have never been enforced by the high caste dominated Indian court system and legislatures. A tiny fraction of the "quotas" or reservations for Dalits in education and government jobs have been filled. Dalits are still discriminated against in all aspect of life in India's 650,000 villages, despite laws specifically outlawing such acts. Dalits are the victims of economic embargos, denial of basic human rights such as access to drinking water, use of public facilities and education and even entry to Hindu temples.

To this day, most Indians still believe, and this includes a majority of Dalits, that Dalits are being punished by God for sins in a previous life. Under the religious codes of Hinduism, a Dalit's only hope is to be a good servant of the high castes and upon death and rebirth they will be reincarnated in a high caste. This is called varna in Sanskrit, the language of the original Aryans who imposed Hinduism on India beginning some 3,500 years ago. Interestingly, the word "varna" translates literally into the word "color" from Sanskrit.

This is one of the golden rules of Dalit liberation, that varna means color, and that Hinduism is a form of racially based oppression and as such is the equivalent of Apartheid in India. Dalits feel that if they had the right to elect their own leaders they would have been able to start challenging the domination of the high castes in Indian society and would have begun the long walk to freedom so to speak. They blame Gandhi and his hunger strike for preventing this.

So there it is, in as few words as possible, why in today's India the leaders of India's Dalits hate M.K. Gandhi.

This is, of course, an oversimplification. India's social problems remain the most pressing in the world and a few paragraphs are not going to really explain matters to anyone's satisfaction. The word Dalit and the movement of a crushed and broken people, the "untouchables" of India, are just beginning to become known to most of the people concerned about human rights in the world. As Dalits organize themselves and begin to challenge caste-based rule in India, it behooves all people of good conscience to start to find out what the Dalits and their leadership are fighting for. A good place to start is with M.K. Gandhi and why he is so hated by Dalits in India.

Thomas C. Mountain is the publisher of the Ambedkar Journal on India's Dalits, founded in 1996. His writing has been featured in Dalit publications across India, including the Dalit Voice and the Times of Bahujan as well as on the front pages of the mainstream, high caste owned, Indian press. He would recommend viewing of the film "Bandit Queen" as the best example of life for women and Dalits in India's villages, which is the story of the life of the late, brutally murdered, Phoolan Devi, of whose international defense committee Thomas C. Mountain was a founding member. He can be reached at tmountain@hawaii.rr.com.

Dalits - Real Issues & Discussion - Guest - 03-20-2006

QUOTE(rajesh_g @ Mar 19 2006, 10:40 PM)Thomas C. Mountain is the publisher of the Ambedkar Journal on India's Dalits, founded in 1996. His writing has been featured in Dalit publications across India, including the Dalit Voice and the Times of Bahujan as well as on the front pages of the mainstream, high caste owned, Indian press. He would recommend viewing of the film "Bandit Queen" as the best example of life for women and Dalits in India's villages, which is the story of the life of the late, brutally murdered, Phoolan Devi, of whose international defense committee Thomas C. Mountain was a founding member. He can be reached at tmountain@hawaii.rr.com.
[right][snapback]48761[/snapback][/right]


Rajesh: It makes sense if you read Taliban sympathizer and Lucknow riot expert Kalim Kawaja's rant
QUOTEWhen Phholan Devi was an MP, I worked with other groups, including University of Hawaii to invite her to visit US . She could not come as she could not get visa to visit US