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Khap Gotra issues - Printable Version
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Khap Gotra issues - Printable Version

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Khap Gotra issues - G.Subramaniam - 11-14-2010

There are indeed bad effects of in-breeding



Marrying a 1st cousin decreases IQ by 8, a niece by 15 and a sister by 30 points

Extrapolating , marrying a cousins daughter would decrease IQ by 4 and marrying a second cousin by 2 IQ points

So one could say that all inbreeding effects are negated if the genetic distance is at least 2nd cousin.



In the pre-scientific age, this could be the initial basis of ban on same gotra marriages



In the following posts, I will post more


Khap Gotra issues - G.Subramaniam - 01-09-2012

About 60% of Jats are paternally descended from R1A

as are similar numbers of brahmins, Khatris etc



If you look at Individuals with different gotras, you will find that are R1A, meaning different gotras have same paternal ancestor


Khap Gotra issues - simplyrohit21 - 01-10-2012

Waiting for more on this. I had a discussion with a Jat gentleman as well on this.


Khap Gotra issues - G.Subramaniam - 01-11-2012

If the jat khaps really want to avoid marrying cousins, they really should look from brides and grooms from African negros, since the split is 85000 years ago.



Every Ashkenazi jew is related at the level of 4th cousin



One of the interesting facts of evolution is that at each branch there is a bottle-neck effect, and fairly high levels of inbreeding, thereby concentrating the genes.



I have seen 2-3 cases of genetic defects even at the level of 2nd cousin, but at this genetic distance, it is not clear whether they are purely random events.



At the level of 3rd cousin and 4th cousin, the genes actually start favoring in-breeding, due to genetic compatibility


Khap Gotra issues - G.Subramaniam - 01-12-2012

Jats, brahmins and most upper castes have roughly the following Y-DNA profile



R1A = 50% ( Aryan gene )

R2 = 10% ( bengali )

J2A = 15% ( wheat farmer )

H1= 5% ( OBC North Indian, cuckoldery )

L1 = 5% ( OBC South Indian, cuckoldery )



Now if done correctly there must be only 3 gothras, R1A, R2, J2A,



H1 and L1 being spurious



And there are a dozen gotras, must be only 3 per DNA



What you will actually find is that the gotras for Jats is different from gotras for brahmins , under each of the dozen gotras,

instead of neatly differentiated as R1A, R2 etc, you will find a variety of Y-DNA blends


Khap Gotra issues - G.Subramaniam - 01-13-2012

If you look at dog-breeding, especially alsations, they do line-breeding ( cousins ) for 3-4 generations to increase certain genes to fixation and after 4 generations to increase hybrid vigor, they breed the dog with a wolf.


Khap Gotra issues - simplyrohit21 - 01-13-2012

[quote name='G.Subramaniam' date='14 November 2010 - 08:58 PM' timestamp='1289748028' post='109235']

There are indeed bad effects of in-breeding



Marrying a 1st cousin decreases IQ by 8, a niece by 15 and a sister by 30 points

Extrapolating , marrying a cousins daughter would decrease IQ by 4 and marrying a second cousin by 2 IQ points

So one could say that all inbreeding effects are negated if the genetic distance is at least 2nd cousin.



In the pre-scientific age, this could be the initial basis of ban on same gotra marriages



In the following posts, I will post more

[/quote]



Guru-ji, one query. While we assume that this could be the initial basis for the ban on the same gotra marriages, what could be the possible ways/methods or reasons by which the ancients of the yore observed the above phenomenon (if at all they were basing it on this)? Or did they observed it over generations and concluded thus? To put it in simple words, we did not have any genetic mapping/modelling at that time to come to such conclusions. What then, led to formation of these customs/rules? I hope I've conveyed what I wanted to put across.


Khap Gotra issues - G.Subramaniam - 01-14-2012

[quote name='Amatya Rakshas' date='13 January 2012 - 11:33 PM' timestamp='1326477348' post='114197']

Guru-ji, one query. While we assume that this could be the initial basis for the ban on the same gotra marriages, what could be the possible ways/methods or reasons by which the ancients of the yore observed the above phenomenon (if at all they were basing it on this)? Or did they observed it over generations and concluded thus? To put it in simple words, we did not have any genetic mapping/modelling at that time to come to such conclusions. What then, led to formation of these customs/rules? I hope I've conveyed what I wanted to put across.

[/quote]



I can trace it back to chimpanzees



Chimps live in tribes of male brothers and male cousins.

When chimp female achieves puberty, she moves to the next tribe and does not mate with her patrilineal brothers or cousins.

But this means for chimps, cross-cousin mating was practised, because the neighboring tribes would keep exchanging females



So this has been the norm for 8 million years.



Chinese and Koreans have a similar gotra system , and marriages within the same last name are discouraged.



South Indians also ban patrilineal cousins.

We can consider South Indians to be the true root-modern humans about 50000 years ago, with modern brain size and new brain gene micro-cephalin

Negros are not true humans because their brains are smaller due to ancient version of micro-cephalin gene

From Chimp to South Indian, there is a ban on patrilineal cousins.





However, for jews, they marry their uncles. Brothers Daughter is often married.

This was common in the Rothschilds.

In Rhode Island , and a few other states, there is a specific jewish exemption to allow marriage with fathers-brother

And muslims who are in fact nothing more than a violent sect of ultra-orthodox jews, do patrilineal first cousin marriage



The primary paternal source for Jats and Brahmins is R1A, ( about 50% ).

And for thousands of years, patrilineal marriage ( within same gotra ) was very common



R1A was associated with dairy farming. And as they bred cattle, they probably noticed defects if cattle were bred within the same cow shed

Gotra means cow shed. And more healthy cattle were born when cattle from different cow sheds were mated. And about 5000 years ago, they started extrapolating this to humans. A very empirical and crudely useful method.



But, beyond 2nd cousin, gotra is meaningless in terms of genetics


Khap Gotra issues - G.Subramaniam - 01-14-2012

Both are fools,



Racists who want a pure race, - charles rivers lab, has pure race of mice, formed by incestous matings repeatedly

And Jat Khapists who want not even remote cousins - the only way to do this is to marry negros



Gotra means cow-shed and cow shed for brahmins were different from that for Jats and thats why Jats and Brahmins have different gotras



A sure-fire way for a Jat ( R1A ) to avoid same gotra is to give his daughter in marriage to a North Indian OBC ( H1 ) or a South Indian OBC ( L1 ) or a bengali OBC ( R2 ) or a Madia Gond ST ( P ) or a Naga ( Q )


Khap Gotra issues - simplyrohit21 - 01-14-2012

Thanks for putting that up; that was helpful. And a bit amusing too <img src='http://www.india-forum.com/forums/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='Smile' />


Khap Gotra issues - G.Subramaniam - 01-14-2012

[quote name='Amatya Rakshas' date='14 January 2012 - 09:21 AM' timestamp='1326512635' post='114201']

Thanks for putting that up; that was helpful. And a bit amusing too <img src='http://www.india-forum.com/forums/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='Smile' />

[/quote]



99% of castes are Patrilineal, meaning sometimes they may marry out of caste women, but never allow an out of caste man in



Effectively castes are patrilineal tribes of male cousins and extrapolating this backward, means they have same Y-DNA and Gotra



The only surefire way to stop same gotra marriages is for widespread inter-caste marriage, more specifically intercaste marriage with backward castes and SC-ST


Khap Gotra issues - G.Subramaniam - 01-14-2012

I saw a study about 30 years ago, that on-average, non-brahmin South Indians were marrying their 1st cousins and brahmin South Indians were on-average marrying their 2nd cousins. The genetic sweet spot is 3rd to 4th cousin.



This by definition causes a 6 point brahmin IQ advantage over non-brahmins in South India.



This in addition to the multi-generation selection for IQ for brahmins



This ultimately led to 69% non-brahmin quota in TN


Khap Gotra issues - simplyrohit21 - 01-14-2012

[quote name='G.Subramaniam' date='14 January 2012 - 09:34 AM' timestamp='1326513399' post='114203']



This by definition causes a 6 point brahmin IQ advantage over non-brahmins in South India.



This in addition to the multi-generation selection for IQ for brahmins



This ultimately led to 69% non-brahmin quota in TN



H1= 5% ( OBC North Indian, cuckoldery )

L1 = 5% ( OBC South Indian, cuckoldery )



[/quote]



I am hardly an expert on genetics but feel that if our social order/customs is seen in this light, it is sure to have seminal and ground breaking ramifications; and eye opening inquiry into these matters. I may be completely wrong though.



By the way, what exactly were you referring to as cuckoldery? (No offence, I'm really perplexed)


Khap Gotra issues - G.Subramaniam - 01-15-2012

[quote name='Amatya Rakshas' date='14 January 2012 - 01:51 PM' timestamp='1326528788' post='114204']

I am hardly an expert on genetics but feel that if our social order/customs is seen in this light, it is sure to have seminal and ground breaking ramifications; and eye opening inquiry into these matters. I may be completely wrong though.



By the way, what exactly were you referring to as cuckoldery? (No offence, I'm really perplexed)

[/quote]



IMHO, the upper caste Y-DNA complex , which is shared with Indo-Europeans, is a blend of R1A ( Aryan gene, dairy farmer ), R2 ( paternal uncle of R1A ) and J2 ( wheat farmer ). These are all patrilineal lines and related to food production ( which gave them a leg up ).



H1 is strongly modal in North Indian OBC and L1 is strongly modal in South Indian OBC.



Historically upper castes have sometimes married a lower caste woman, but never a lower caste man



The very noticeable 5% H1 and 5% L1 among upper castes is therefore the result of OBC-male intrusion into upper caste women, ( and the children raised as upper castes ) . And the only way it could have happened is thru cuckoldery



AIT claims that North Indian OBC are same as South Indian OBC, and they are totally different per Y-DNA


Khap Gotra issues - G.Subramaniam - 01-15-2012

It is estimated that all cheetahs alive today are descended from 1 breeding pair at the end of the last ice age



It is estimated that 200k years ago, the evolution of modern man in africa was done by a small tribe of about 2000

It is certain that gene-concentration aided evolution of new species



It is estimated that 85k years ago, the out-of-africa exodus was done by 2k modern humans



It is estimated that 70k years ago, less than 2k humans survived the mount toba volcanic winter



In all these cases what happens is mating between siblings, parent-child happen and even in normal conditions.

due to historic lack of mobility, most humans were marrying their 1st and 2nd cousins.



The gotra system was an improvement over this, but it should be analysed scientifically, not through pseudo-scientific hype


Khap Gotra issues - G.Subramaniam - 01-16-2012

What people have to realise is that 1 time cousin or niece marriage does only SLIGHTLY increase risks, maybe 25% to 50% more.

What is more harmful is repeated cousin marriages, over-concentrating genes.



Thats why Pakis in UK have a genetic defect rate 10X the normal rate, not 1.5X the normal rate for cousin marriages



Far more important than quibling over gotra is to deliberately import fresh blood, for hybrid vigor, every 3-4 generations. Adding Assamese or Nepalese blood periodically will immensely improve the health of the gene pool of any caste



The only hybridisation that will definitely lower IQ is adding African or Australian Aboriginal genes



Australian aborigines mated with Denisovans , diverged 1 million years ago

And African negros mated with relict populations of Homo-Erectus ( diverged 1.7 mil years ago )

In both cases the hybridisation happened 40k years ago


Khap Gotra issues - G.Subramaniam - 01-17-2012

What has happened is that there are too many sub-castes. Within a sub-caste, even if you marry a 4th cousin, because of multiple tangled relationships, it is same as a 2nd cousin. Thats what the Amish are finding out the hard way.



Same gotra in a different sub-caste is safer than out-of-gotra within same subcaste


Khap Gotra issues - G.Subramaniam - 01-17-2012

The need of the hour is to breakdown jati ( sub-caste ) barriers and move to the varna level



and dump pseudo-science like gotra


Khap Gotra issues - G.Subramaniam - 01-17-2012

I would welcome contrary views


Khap Gotra issues - G.Subramaniam - 01-18-2012

There are only 100k parsis left and already they are having lots of inbreeding issues, due to multiple crossings in their history, even if they dont marry relatives, they are all related at the 2nd cousin level



10k to 500k is about the size of a sub-caste, and I am sure the same parsi type problem is repeated, no matter the gotra



Going from sub-caste to varna, would increase the pool to several tens of millions, and gotra be damned