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Inculturation: the OTHER christian conversion tactic - Husky - 09-29-2011

Kalakshetra is a famous centre of inculturation on the Hindu (i.e. religious) dance Bharatanatyam (it is of the Hindu Gods and for worship of the Hindu Gods alone.) Kalakshetra is filled with christians and christo-conditioned (aka "seculars").



=> Kalakshetra inculturation



Led to:



1. www.haindavakeralam.com/hkpage.aspx?PageID=8881&SKIN=C

Quote:Inculturation and the Hybrid Bible

30/06/2009 14:26:06



By G P Srinivasan



Kalakshetra Foundation, Chennai, an Institution established for promoting Hindu Dance forms, is used for inculturation by its Jew-Christian Director. She has removed the Nataraja and Ganesh statues from its premises, which is certainly a matter of concern for Hindus (Hindu Voice, Sept. 2007).



2. Important page

vaticanculturation.wordpress.com/category/uncategorized/

by Vedaprakash



More on inculturation into Shri Vaishnavas posted more recently at vaticanculturation.wordpress.com/





3. pastebin.com/zin8MyXC

Quote: UntitledBy: a guest | Sep 21st, 2011 | Syntax: None | Size: 4.97 KB | Views: 38 | Expires: Nevercopy to clipboard | Download | Raw | Embed | Report abuse1.



[RajivMalhotraDiscussion] Response to Indian dancer upset at my critique of Christian Bharatnatyam

2.Inbox

3.X

4.

5.Reply

6.Rajiv Malhotra ✆ RajivMalhotra2007@gmail.com via yahoogroups.com to RajivMalhotraD.

7.show details 11:49 AM (8 hours ago)

8.



9.After the recent highly successful book event in Houston, the organizers received an email from a dancer in Houston about an upcoming performance by Leela Samson's students. When someone sent the Breaking India excerpt about Leela Samson to this dancer, she replied that Breaking India had "resurrected the scandal" against Leela Sampson 4 years after Sampson's supporters had declared it "a dead issue or a non issue". Since it was a private letter forwarded to me for a response, I will not name the person. The letter claimed that the "attacks against Leela Sampson" in 2007 were the work of one man based on "some internal 'politics' and innuendos" within the dance academy. It went on to say that "the dance community of India strongly supported Leela Samson and discredited Nadar's accusations as scurrilous religion-based comments." The protestor proudly asserts: "I am a dancer, from Chennai, and to me, the Kalakshetra is a 'shrine' to [color="#FF0000"]art[/color] built by Rukmini Devi..."

[color="#800080"](First step of christianism and its christoconditioning is to always reduce heathen religious practice to culture or spirituality or "art". So Bindi and Pongal become "culture", Yoga becomes "spirituality" and "exercise" while Hindu temples, sculpting, painting and of course music and dance become "art".)[/color]



10.I agree with her on the prestigious dance academy being a shrine. I disagree with her on what that entails. To understand the syndrome we are dealing with, it is important to first understand the strategy known as inculturation and its colonizing influences upon a growing number of Indian dancers, such as this protestor. [color="#0000FF"]What this dancer feels is precisely the result of inculturation - namely, to de-Hinduize the tradition in such a manner that it is welcomed by the practitioners who begin to see this shift as a kind of modernization and globalization program. The first stage is to diminish the dharmic metaphysical context by emptying the symbols of their deeper meanings, and this gets gradually secularized and eventually Christianized.[/color]

[color="#800080"](Not mere internationalisation, but universalisation: "belongs to everyone, it's 'just' spirituality" nonsense. It's a grave threat to Hindus and their religion.)[/color]



11.The students learn to perform across a wide range of improvisations and stories depending on the given audience. From the most traditional to the most distant from tradition, there is a spectrum with the following stages:



12.1) very traditional Hindu

13.2) modern but still Hindu

14.3) use of Hindu symbols but without explaining their traditional meaning

15.4) symbols turned into decorations and generic spirituality, to be sprinkled in for exotic/ethnic beauty

16.5) total secularization

17.6) Christian stories, but still using the traditional dance grammar, dress, gestures

18.7) dancing stories of protest against the tradition's "oppression" against women, Dalits, etc.



19.Ever since Christian institutions across India and the West started taking over Indian dance academies, they have been increasingly producing such students in the name of modernity. The performer will do different things before different audiences. This is sort of equivalent to what is called "al taqiyah" in Islam, namely, to be respectful to the majority culture and traditions for the time being.



20.Inculturation is at a highly advanced stage of perfection in India. It was started by the church first in Latin America and Africa to gradually convert tribes by infiltrating them gently with appropriation of their culture. [color="#0000FF"]The western trend of Christian Yoga is a part of the same syndrome. There are many such appropriations that confuse Indians into thinking it is a complement to them.[/color] I deal with this partly in my forthcoming book "Being Different", and in greater detail in my subsequent "U-Turn Theory".

[color="#800080"](That's not the only thing they're appropriating.

Also, christianism started inculturation as early as its infestation of Rome itself.)[/color]



21.What I would greatly appreciate from Leela Sampson's academy is a clear statement of policy on inculturation and secularization of Bharatnatyam: Does she claim that this dance can be performed either as Hindu form or as non Hindu form? Does she believe that our postmodern era makes it easier (and hence desirable) to teach and learn dance that is "liberated" from Hinduism? Does she feel that Bharatnatyam is separable from its underlying metaphysics - a metaphysics that my book "Being Different" shows to be incompatible with the fundamental metaphysics of Abrahamic religions?



22.In other words, let us get Sampson's clear position on what is the relationship between (i) Hinduism and Natya Shastra and (ii) Natya Shastra and Bharatnatyam.

23.Until such questions are debated openly and dealt with, the protestor is making a meaningless and potentially insincere compliment to Rukmani Devi and "the dancers that she had helped train, and who still carry aloft the torch of Bharatanatyam." She must go deeper than a mere surface understanding of the syndrome.

24.

[color="#0000FF"]25.But she is unlikely to do any such deep introspection. Her final sentence in the letter clarifies her escapist mindset: "It is a heavy book with disturbing writings. I'd rather spend time studying Vedanta..." This interpretation of Vedanta as an escape from whatever one finds "disturbing" and "heavy" is one of the symptoms of what I have called the Moron Smriti. But that is the topic of yet another book and I won't go further into it here.[/color]

[color="#800080"](Rajeev is wrong in his diagnosis about that last. The whole "going into (new-age pseudo-) Vedanta" thing is a sign of de-heathenisation/christianisation in some people and even a sign of cryptochristianism in others.

I think it was Ishwar Sharan who tried to explain the dangers of this shift among - invariably new-age - Hindus.)[/color]



26.Regards,

27.Rajiv Malhotra



And inculturating/crypto-christian music production houses, albums and cryptochristian "musicians" are also at it. Starting with Hindu shlokas and carnatic songs, and moving to christian albums as if it's all innocent and part of a continuum.

Inculturation: the OTHER christian conversion tactic - Husky - 09-29-2011

Wow.



christianizingbharatanatyam.blogspot.com/





Hindus should visit the above. And shudder.

Inculturation: the OTHER christian conversion tactic - Husky - 09-29-2011

And now I find this. The 3rd point in post 1 above (an excerpt by Rajeev Malhotra) is repeated at the Vivekajyoti blog. And then comes the backstab. It is a very effective one: I anticipate Hindus may bleed to death with such friends as these, who must surely know where to strike most effectively. As indeed they do. Rajiv Malhotra does little U-turns regularly, but I confess I never saw the following coming. More fool me.





http://vivekajyoti.blogspot.com/2011/09/response-to-indian-dancer-upset-at-my.html

Quote:Rajiv Malhotra



* * *



from Rajiv Malhotra

date Wed, Sep 21, 2011 at 6:07 PM

subject Response to Indian dancer upset at my critique of Christian Bharatnatyam



This topic has entered other lists and there are some misunderstandings I wish to clear. Someone is distorting my position to claim that I am upset when Judeo-Christian persons perform bharatnatyam. THIS IS NOT MY POSITION.



If a Judeo-Christian person does the dance AUTHENTICALLY as per Hindu Natya Shastra that would be fine.



But many Christians have difficulty doing it this way, because it conflicts with their Christian indoctrination - worship of "false gods" and "idols" and so forth. When a dancer performs a gesture, mantra or ritual to a Hindu deity, say Shiva or Ganesha, is that dancer feeling the deity as GOD? Or it is felt internally as a "secular" or "cultural" symbol of "out of respect for our ancestors"? If the Christian dancer is clear and not self-deceptive that indeed the deity IS GOD then there is no issue - but then the padre in his/her church wont be happy.



There is NO problem with a person doing bharatnatyam regardless of his/her own faith. Pls read what i wrote in my response yesterday. The issue is about inculturation as a public campaign to infiltrate hindus by deception.



Hope this clarifies.

rajiv

I can't believe he did this. It's like a punch in the stomach.



Bharatanatyam is worship of the Hindu Gods. Not some undefined entity called "God" that Hindus can supposedly share with christoislamics or Jewish persons or even anyone else.

Bharatanatyam is a dance for Hindu Gods alone, to be danced by Hindus alone - who alone love their Gods.



If people can sell Bharatanatyam - which is a deeply and exclusively Hindu religious dance - to non-Hindus (in which term christoislamics are especially included), then we can sell the Vedam to them too on the SAME PRINCIPLES. No? Can't have it both ways. People either agree to both statements or disagree to both.



So this is the statement that Rajeev just made:

Quote:There is NO problem with a person performing the Vedic rites regardless of his/her own faith. Thats not the issue. Lets not misrepresent the issue. Pls read what i wrote in my response yesterday. its about inculturation as a public program to infiltrate hindus by deception.

[...]

But many Christians have difficulty doing Vedic rites this way, because it conflicts with their Christian indoctrination - worship of "false gods" and "idols" and so forth.


Who is Rajiv to say this about Bharatanatyam? He has the right to *defend* Hindu exclusivity to Bharatanatyam, but no right to open it up to others. Even were it his local ancestral Hindu tradition - but I suspect it's not - he still would have no right.



More to object in this:

Quote:But many Christians have difficulty doing it this way, because it conflicts with their Christian indoctrination - worship of "false gods" and "idols" and so forth.
NO. No welcoming people of other (esp. alien) religions to Please Dabble In Hinduism Next To Their Own Religion.

There can be no worship of the evil fabrication of the Galilaeans (=christianism) alongside the real Gods of the Hindus. And likewise, no neo-paganism/wicca/new-age alongside part-time dabbling in Hindu religion.

Hindu religion is an ethnic religion. Stop inviting aliens, which is the source of all this misery.





I am not grateful to people who make such statements. Cannot expect me to be grateful. It is a summary of that which I detest about modern Hindus and their stupid stupid stupid (till infinity and beyond) arguments against christianism.

Anyone hear laughter? It is christianism. It is both cheering in anticipation of its victory and laughing at Hindus' dismal fate to come, which has ended up in dangerous hands such as these.





Rajiv's objection is to inculturation alone: he's objecting to the appropriation of Hindu forms of worship for the purpose of other religions, objecting to their being used for worship of other (non-existent) Gods. It is a common dangerously-flawed objection that de-heathenised make: dangerous and flawed because the argument is incomplete.

The full objection/argument - and it cannot be mine alone - is larger than that: that Bharatanatyam is - like the Vedam, like all things Hindu* - forever closed to non-Hindus.



* All statements on Bharatanatyam are repeated for everything else that is Hindu religion, like Carnatic music - which is exclusively Hindu religious practice.





Here in blue follows what the Hindus should have said, but in your words. It quotes the views of one of the all too few people who can be trusted. Parroting again -



[quote name='Husky' date='30 October 2010 - 09:12 PM' timestamp='1288452844' post='109050']

1. While the following brief excerpt says several things, contained in there is also the Heathen Argument against "inculturation". Sole argument (all there is to say on the matter) -



[color="#0000FF"]"(Julian's) revulsion at (christians') efforts to assimilate[/color] (=inculturate on) the literary and philosophic heritage of the Greeks without accepting the religious values voiced in it. To Julian's mind, that seemed wreckage, not assimilation."

Speaks on *why* inculturation should be opposed by all heathenisms. The Why is the most important part of the correct objection.



"On this point Julian's stance was basic and closed to argument: 'Drink deep, or taste not the Pierian spring.'"



Word for word.

And extends in equal measure to all "culture" thieves - of whatever hue. To the non-comprehending eye of the modern outer world looking in, religion manifests as "culture". But religio-culture - in ancient natural religio-traditions religion is the well-spring of what appears to others now as "culture" - is not some secular, generic (non-existent) "culture/civilisational values". E.g. considering the Dharmic religious tradition of the Hindoos, despite surface appearances, as Hindus know, there are profoundly religious reasons even behind why Hindus wear and apply certain things to their person. It isn't "culture". It's Hindu religion.[/quote]

Why can't I ever find an Indian voice that claims to represent Hindu interests that I can recommend unconditionally? Why should I have to forever quote Hellenes (I thank their Gods for them. But I would so much like to have at least one of our own kind, whose words I could confidently recommend, and Not have to trace everything they say to see if I still trust them, and then only to be disappointed. And thoroughly disappointed, as in this case.)



This should have been the response: only Hindus - only ancestral ("ethnic") Hindus who remain attached to their Hindu Gods as ever and do not recognise non-existent 'gawd' entities - have a right to perform Bharatanatyam. It is Hindu religious practice: it is directed solely at the Hindu Gods. Nowhere else.

As any Hindu knows, Bharatanatyam is performed by Shiva and his Wife at the dissolution and creation of the worlds - her lAsya is THE act of creation and his tANDavam is THE act of dissolution (I don't say this, *Rishis* - and after them acharyas - say this) - and it is performed by Uma-Shiva at dawn and dusk. And at all times. They ever perform it. When Hindus dance it in imitation, it is Yoga: the act by which the Hindoo attaches itself completely to its Hindu Gods, by which the Hindoo is attuned to the Hindoo Gods.

And only the Hindoo Gods respond to Hindoo religious practices. When performed by Hindoos.



Like the Vedam, like Kavadi, like all Hindoo things - it is NONE of anyone else's business.



If christianism doesn't destroy Hindus, angelsk-enabled vocalists speaking for Hindus surely will. "Death By Backstab."

A fitting end, surely? No? If not, make the Lakota/Dakota/Nakota declaration. It is past time.

"All those who sell our Hindoo religion=its religious practices are enemies of Hindoos and their religion=Gods. [Where 'sell' includes peddling as well as facilitating appropriation or for dabbling, etc.]"





[quote name='Husky' date='29 September 2011 - 05:37 PM' timestamp='1317297553' post='113081']

Wow.



christianizingbharatanatyam.blogspot.com/



Hindus should visit the above. And shudder.

[/quote]





ADDED/CORRECTION:

Quote:her (Uma's) lAsya is THE act of creation and his (Shiva's) tANDavam is THE act of dissolution
He is supposed to have several tandavams - one of which is for creation of the Kosmos and which he dances together with his wife (who in turn performs the creative laasya for the occasion, as mentioned).

But, unless I've confused myself again, I think he is supposed to dance the closing tandavam (for dissolution) on his own.

Inculturation: the OTHER christian conversion tactic - Husky - 09-29-2011

And of course Carnatic music. (Can you tell they're targeting the south of Bharatam?)



http://nh47.com/tsp/article.php

Quote:The singing priest: Dr Fr. Paul Poovathingal CMI



Article

Research Papers by Fr.Paul Poovathingal CMI

1 ‘ The influence Karnatic music on the Christian music of Kerala 'University of Durban, South Africa, April-1998

[color="#FF0000"] 2 ‘ Karnatic music As a Regional Church Dialect ' University of Madras, January 1999 [/color] 3 ‘ Indian classical music and Christian inculturation ' Aluva, Christian Musicological Society, August 2000

4 ‘ The Christian Music in India 'Universtiy of Goa, January 2001

5 ‘ Karnatic Music and Harmony ' NBCLC, Bangalore, November 2003

[color="#0000FF"] 6 ‘ Inculturation of Music ' January 2004, Mount St.Thomas, Kakkanad, Kochi [/color] 7 ‘ A histrical Approach towards the contemporary Church music of Kerala ' Dept. of Christianty, Univesity of Madras, September 2004

8 ‘ Musical Analysis of the Contributions of K.K.Antony master ', Christian Musicological Society of India, Kurianad, August, 2004

9 ‘ Nadayoga ' NBCLC, Bangalore, November 2004

10 ‘ Nadayoga ' NBCLC, Bangalore, November 2004

11 ‘ Development of Vocology of in South Indian Music ' Kerala institute of Medical Sciences Voice Foundation, Thiruvananthapuram, November 2005



Lecture Demonstrations by Fr.Paul Poovathingal CMI

1 Karnatic music and Voice Culture , Music Deptt. University of Kerala May 2001

2 Karnatic Music and Vocology , Music Deptt. University of Madras, November 2003

3 Yoga and Music meditation , NBCLC, Bangalore November 2004

4 What is Vocology , NISCORT, New Delhi January 2005

5 The Functional Unity of Singing , Chetana Sangeet Natya Academy Thrissur June 2005

6 Vocology and Music , Svaralaya, Palakad, September 2005

7 Vocology and Karnatic music , [color="#0000FF"]Kalakshetra[/color], Madras October 2005

8 Yoga and Music meditation , NBCLC, Bangalore, November 2005

9 Physiology of Breathing , Kerala institute of Medical Sciences, Thiruvanathapuram, February 2006

10 Yoga and Spirituality of Indian Music , NISCORT, New Delhi, March 2006


Inculturation: the OTHER christian conversion tactic - Husky - 09-29-2011

Post 1/2 on musicians, Carnatic music and music labels





1. Yesudas' christo albums use Hindu terms regularly for christianism e.g. refers to christian heaven as "Swargam" etc. IIRC, he badmouthed the pujaris of the Guruvayoorappan Kovil for not allowing him into the Kovil premises on a singing occasion at the temple (the Kovil has rules of non-Hindus not being allowed, I think). Well, fact is, he's not a Hindu. And his badmouthing those who serve Bhagavaan loyally at Guruvayoorappan indicates he's an anti-Hindu. If he were not anti-Hindu, he'd have quietly accepted that he was not invited. No one asked him to convert.



I know people tend to be touched by christists singing Hindu songs and doing Hindu dances. Maybe it's time to stop. Ask people to revert first if they want to perform these things. Else tell them to - I don't know - stick to choir practice or something.





2. On the other side, there is the Tamizh cine-singer Chitra (IIRC sang Kannamoochi Yennada from Kandukondain x2), who has some classical training I think.

Her inculturation tactic works from the other end:

- She has a lot of (light music) albums of Hindu stotras in Tamizh and Samskritam (even dared to sing the LS, I doubt she has mantra deeksham for it)

- These albums were released by Malayala Manorama, which IIRC is a label of the catholic newspaper/mouthpiece of the same name

- She made two albums of Jeebus songs.





3. And in Tamizhnadu, there's cryptochristo music labels mushrooming all over: releasing Hindu shloka recitation albums and Hindu carnatic albums at first (for which unwitting Hindus are frequently employed: to rope in a Hindu audience for the label) before the label slowly transforms into christianism.

Some are in the intermediate phase - the "universalising" phase:

- calling yoga "spiritual",

- having Buddhist (even Tibetan Buddhist <img src='http://www.india-forum.com/forums/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/blink.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':blink:' />) covers on albums containing exclusively Veda mantras and stotras composed by Hindu acharyas.

The Buddha album covers are for presenting Hindu stotras as "It's all generic interchangeable Indian 'chants'" (which preceeds the declaration that "it's all equally christian", like christianism tries with Tiruvachagam). "Chants" is new-age terminology, BTW. Just like calling Yoga "spiritual".

Inculturation: the OTHER christian conversion tactic - Guest - 09-29-2011

[quote name='Husky' date='29 September 2011 - 06:51 PM' timestamp='1317302039' post='113082']

Why can't I ever find an Indian voice that claims to represent Hindu interests that I can recommend unconditionally? Why should I have to forever quote Hellenes (I thank their Gods for them. But I would so much like to have at least one of our own kind, whose words I could confidently recommend, and Not have to trace everything they say to see if I still trust them, and then only to be disappointed. And thoroughly disappointed, as in this case.)

[/quote]

I too have this problem, Husky. Given the multiplicity of attacks on Hinduism and Hindus, I suppose it is inevitable that there will be a multiplicity of responses. Perhaps, it is unrealistic to expect a person to be unflinchingly opposed to all approaches by non-Hindus. Eventually, people like Rajiv Malhotra are going to make peace with some milder attacks on Hinduism, in order to appear reasonable.



Apropos this, let me commend you Husky, on your unflinchingly hardline approach. Your views, as they are, need to articulated without fear or embarrassment. Thank you for doing this.





Inculturation: the OTHER christian conversion tactic - Husky - 09-29-2011

Post 2/2 on musicians, Carnatic music and music labels





4. An example of a famous cryptochristian music house is "Amutham", which Sudha Raghunathan is a managing director of. It's a label that "specialises" in carnatic music. But there's more:



Quote:[color="#0000FF"]Dr. Winston Panchacharam (USA)[/color] has been the spark of inspiration for the birth of Amutham Music. It’s a matter of pride and privelage that Amutham music has Padmasri Sudha Ragunathan as its managing director.

Entity is clearly not a Hindu: which Hindus would call their kid Winston? (Having said that, you'd think even christians of Indian origin would have more sense than giving their kid the same name as Adolf I mean Churchill. But then Indian christians loved the christobrits even in the midst of the deadly famines the christobrits inflicted on the unconverted Indian population.)



[color="#0000FF"]But to the more important point:

Amutham has a "devotional" section. Which has a Christian and a Hindu and a Sanskrit section (exactly where is there a difference between Hindu and Sanskrit here? And since when did "christian devotional" belong under a label that works with "Carnatic music"?)[/color]



There's way more dubiousness concerning Amutham. But moving on to related companies:



- Amutham releases "Carnatic" and "Sanskrit" music

- while Kalakendra releases "Bharatanatyam" DVDs by the now-cryptochristian org Kalakshetra. (Kalakshetra was originally Hindu since its founding in the early half of the last century. But it has been infiltrated and taken over by not-so-crypto-christianism. Rather like the Chindu and certain other famous English Language Media houses were once upon a time Hindu and are now in christian and cryptochristian hands. Note how education, media and govt were taken over. Temples are being christo-taxed to a slow death, while funding christoislamism. And now Bharatanatyam and Carnatic music are infiltrated.)



Anyway, both Amutham and Kalakendra appear to be labels under the [color="#0000FF"]"Swathisoft"[/color] umbrella. IIRC, it is Swathisoft that released a Tirukkural album by Tamil Maiyam. I "suspect" this is the same Tamil Maiyam of catholic inculturationist "Father Gasper Raj" who was funding the christo LTTE while releasing an inculturating album on Manikkavasagar's Tiruvachagam (to raise funds for christianism again - from unwitting Hindu victims).

This was covered in depth at:

Quote:vigilonline.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=922&Itemid=1

The Catholic church, Tamil and LTTE - Part II

vigilonline.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=923&Itemid=1&limit=1&limitstart=12

The Catholic church, Tamil and LTTE - Part III

“THIRUVASAGAM IN SYMPHONY”




The aforementioned "Swathisoft" company has a "Sanskriti series" of albums or something. It tends to deheathenise all references to Hindu Gods on albums about Hindu Gods. It slowly de-Hinduises Samskritam (which is why they start by calling all Hindu stotras/texts in Samskritam as a separate "Sanskrit" genre) before turning Samskritam into a "universal" language - soon to be claimed for christianism, but you know this, since this was a long-term plan of christianism. Which is why Dr Swamy suggesting that every "Indian" learn Samskritam is a bad plan. Besides, Samskritam is Saraswati. Those infested with christoislamism should be kept away from Hindus' sacred Mother.)



hvk.org/articles/0709/8.html

Quote:Why would Christian Church copy Hindu Scriptures?



The answer is here. "Such, indeed, is the exuberance and flexibility of this language (Sanskrit) and its power of compounding words, and when it has been, so to speak, baptized, and thoroughly, penetrated with the spirit of Christianity, it will probably be found, next to Hebrew and Greek, the most expressive vehicle of Christian Truth." - M. Monier - Williams (1861:54)

Monier-Williams believed that at a time before English rose to such primacy in India and the world. At present, and in foreseeable future, English is the vehicle of both de-heathenisation and christianisation.



But christians still pursue Samskritam for the purpose of infiltrating (and not inculturating on it: it cannot target the masses for conversion anymore, so any enterprise on this end they know is going to require large amounts of effort with little dividend, whereas English does the opposite almost effortlessly). Christian infiltration of Skt is for the purpose of targeting the class of Hindus for whom Samskritam remains important.







There's now two strikes against Sudha Raghunathan. Plus long ago, I think I saw a comment by Radha Rajan on Sudha being involved in some controversial topic. I can't remember the topic, but I recall that Radha Rajan said that Sudha had been her classmate. Will try to find it.



Hmmm, things becoming a bit clearer now - or at least, less likelihood of "it's all an innocent mistake":

Quote:vijayvaani.com/FrmPublicDisplayArticle.aspx?id=670

Tigers’ Eelam: Nothing ‘Hindu’ or ‘Tamil’ about it – II

B R Haran

02 Jul 2009



The International Tamil Centre, another front organization of the LTTE, was started by one [color="#FF0000"]Dr. Winston Panchacharam[/color] of New York; it celebrated its third anniversary in Chennai on 8 June 2009. Dr. Winston Panchacharam brought two Americans with him, Bruce Fein, US lawyer and specialist in international law, counsel for Tamils against genocide; and Francis Boyle, American expert on international law, to ‘lecture’ on the occasion.





Sudha Ragunathan, a leading Carnatic singer and [color="#FF0000"]‘local head’ of the ITC, organized the event[/color] along with her colleague and local secretary Manimekalai Kannan. The main speakers at the inaugural function were known ‘Dravidian’ ideologues Dr. Ramachandran, Vice Chancellor of Madras University and R.M. Veerappan, former minister and President of MGR Kazhagam. Though both speakers spoke about the glory and antiquity of Tamil language and Tamil culture [color="purple"]("language and culture" is meant to replace the Hindu identity; same as how Yoga being described as "spiritual onlee" replaces the Hinduness of Yoga)[/color], they refrained from talking about the Sri Lankan Tamil issue. As the theme of the conference was “Rehabilitation of Sri Lankan Tamils,” a seminar on the subject was held wherein Prof. V. Suryanarayan, South Asia and Southeast Asia specialist, and Bhagwan Singh, Consulting Editor, Deccan Chronicle [color="#800080"](catholic mouthpiece)[/color], participated apart from the two Americans, Francis Boyle and Bruce Fein.


And in a comment, Radha Rajan wrote:

Quote:Sudha Raghunathan is my college mate and a good friend. I spoke to her on the issue expressing grave reservations about being associated with such dubious persons and organizations. While Sudha's ignorance may be plausible no such fig leaf can be claimed by Prof. Suryanarayan who is Member National Security Advisory Board.

Radha Rajan

03 Jul 2009



That's three strikes against Sudha Raghunathan then: organised and promoted a christoLTTE-funding function, has an important part in the inculturating cryptochristo label Amutham which is mascotted by her friend Winston (fundraiser for christo LTTE), and Sudha is apparently a fan of one "Jaggi Vasudev" of "Isha" "Yoga" - whom Amutham and Swathisoft peddle - but who is .... let's say, Shady.





I don't know what to make of the picture of Velukkudi Krishnan (famous Sri Vaishnava orator) at

vaticanculturation.wordpress.com/category/uncategorized/

- There's no comments in the text on that page about him, only a picture with his name as description.

- But there's lots of audio albums released by Amutham that feature him on the cover.

Is he one of the many innocent Hindus roped into performing so that christianism can make money out of him and his Hindu audience, or does he know more? If the former, someone has to warn him away from Amutham. And warn the Shri Vaishnavas away from Clooney.





5. What can Hindus do about it all?



Well, the very basics is: don't fund it. Vote with your wallet.



Get albums made by Hindus and released by Hindu music houses. Look at the covers, and read the blurbs on the backcovers. Do they demote the Hindu Gods to "ideas" or "symbolism" ("this God symbolises blablabla"). Do they describe a Hindu shloka or song album as being for "health and wealth effects, release from stress, blablabla". Does the cover have ugly untraditional images of the Hindu Gods or no images of the Gods at all, but new agey symbols? Does the cover pretend the Hindu album of Hindu stotras by Hindus is magically Buddhist? Does the album text pretend Yoga/Bharatanatyam is something "spiritual" and avoids speaking directly of Hindu Gods/religion at all? Etc.



In such cases, don't chance it. If you must have an album (because you know the artists are Hindu even if the label is christoterrorist): you are likely to find the album available in some torrent download somewhere. Go ahead, drain the money that funds christianism.

- If you want to support the Hindu artist, write to them and warn them away from cryptochristian labels.

- If you think the music label is Hindu but following a "spiritualising/universalising and globalising" trend set by christian "carnatic" music labels, write to the label.



Also, Hindus should fund Hindu labels that publish Hindu albums/media items by Hindu singers/musicians/dancers. Support your own kind.



Sigh. Wish Radha Rajan would interrogate Sudha Raghunathan about Amutham's "christian devotional" section and whether she minds that this fits with Pope John Paul II's "Conversion of Asia in 3rd millennium" speech and the inculturation project.

Inculturation: the OTHER christian conversion tactic - sumishi - 09-29-2011

[size="3"]Man, you are on fire!![Image: warrior-syndrome.gif]



Great thread, Husky. Am tuned in to further posts on this frequency. <img src='http://www.india-forum.com/forums/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='Smile' />[/size]

Inculturation: the OTHER christian conversion tactic - shamu - 09-30-2011

What do you expect from Kalakshetra?



http://www.kalakshetra.net/history_1.html



Quote:The founding members, Rukmini Devi, her husband George Arundale, and their associates at the Theosophical Society, were deeply committed to Theosophy and an arts academy was an extension

of this commitment.


Inculturation: the OTHER christian conversion tactic - Husky - 09-30-2011

^ Thanks for the heads up. I didn't know the identity of the spouse. Or the involvement of Theosophy. Theosophy is the colonial-era equivalent of subverting Hindu religion into some sort of new-ageism.

But it appears that it is with the takeover of Kalakshetra by the christian Leela Samson in a recent year that the Hindu Gods were removed from there, and it had moved visibly into inculturation:



www.hvk.org/articles/0709/8.html

Quote:Kalakshetra Foundation, Chennai, an Institution established for promoting Hindu Dance forms, is used for inculturation by its Jew-Christian Director. She has removed the Nataraja and Ganesh statues from its premises, which is certainly a matter of concern for Hindus (Hindu Voice, Sept. 2007).



1. Forgot to mention that other obvious example: the Kosmic label, originally from Chennai where it started with traditional Hindu albums, and which set up shop in I think California also. It is yet another label that presented Hindu stotras as new-age, then peddled these in the west as "relaxation/unaffiliated spiritual music" complete with the occasional entirely unrelated Buddha cover on albums of Hindu stotras (how dare Hindus differentiate).

Then Kosmic proceeded to make crossover-christo albums next to new-age ones, which is at least explicitly visible in the California branch: with aliens drawling out what's apparently meant to be the Gayatri mantram etc (not that Hindus or their Gods would recognise it, plus aliens have no right to these things) and then IIRC the same aliens are seen singing albums to Santa Francis Assissi I think it was, also released by Kosmic.



But there are many examples like the above.





2. christianizingbharatanatyam.blogspot.com/2011/09/anitha-rathnam-nothing-is-interesting.html



Quote:"Nothing is interesting in Ramayana for me"

Bharatnatyam dancer [color="#FF0000"]Anita Rathnam, [/color]part of Leela camp, associated herself with Inculturation specialist Rani David and claims in her 2007 event in Maryland: "Rani David laid down facts and demonstrated that [color="#0000FF"]Christianity existed along with Bharatanatyam and Sanga Thamizh, but history lost in time has given Christianity a western outlook"[/color]

Rajiv Malhotra's response at the link indicates that he mistakes Anita for a naive Hindu. I'm betting she's a calculating cryptochristian.

Analogy: Rani David is one of the "miracle healing" frauds that christianism is so famous for (a la Benny Hinn) while Anita plays the "invalid" person "randomly" selected from the audience who becomes "miraculously healed". The rest of the audience - not in on it - represent the onlooking Hindus being targeted, who are unaware that Anita pretends to be distinct from christianism while mouthing christianisms in order to convert Hindus to christian views by pretending she's originally one of them.



Note how the christian says "Christianity, Bharatanatyam and Sanga Tamizh" but no mention of Hindu.

I'm sure this is related to how christianism's history-writing intends on making it "Established History" that Hindu religion was "introduced" into the regions of Kerala and even TN in a late century. (Topic already alluded to in the Buddhism thread.)





3. Anyway, treacherous danseuses making public statements or acting publicly against Hindu religion and for christian objectives reminded me of another one of some years ago. (File under "cryptochristianism", there's little left to differentiate between people so far gone into christianism and full/conscious christians) -



vivekajyoti.blogspot.com/2005/10/padma-subrahmanyam-in-dubious-function.html

Quote:Oct 23, 2005



[color="#FF0000"]Padma Subrahmanyam[/color] in Dubious Function

Dr. Padma Subrahmanyam was once upon a time a Bhakta of the Kanchi Math. I have known the entire family to promote themselves in public life as Bhaktas of the Math and they have been benefited by the grace and blessings of the present Acharyas of the Math. In fact, the family in its entirety has benefited from the well-publicized fact that they are recipients of the grace and blessings of the Acharyas.



Last year, when Pujya Acharyas were arrested and great calamity fell upon the Math because of Jayalalithaa, this family was conspicuous by its absence in any protest, public or private. This family has not visited Pujya Acharyas even once after the release of Pujya Acharyas from prison.



This in itself is unforgivable that a family which publicized for self-promotion their closeness to the Acharyas when Pujya Acharyas were at the pinnacle of their importance should abandon their Gurus at a time of crisis just because they are personally beholden (Dr. Padma Subrahmanyam's book was financed by the TN Government because she and J are friends) to Jayalalithaa.



Dr. Padma Subrahmanyam is Vice President, Hindu Dharma Rakshana Samiti and was also closely involved in the organization of the Hindu Dharm Acharya Sabha (HDAS) in Chennai last year.



I personally find it extremely offensive that she participated yesterday at a function in Chennai for the release of a DVD on Jayalalaithaa and present at the function were Badr Sayeed (AIADMK) and chairperson of the TN WAKF board, Janab K Mohammad Khalifa Sahib, Managing Trustee of the Nagore Dargah and reverend M Azariah, former Chennai CSI Bishop.



I find it disgraceful that this kind of Gurudroham is countenanced by us. Self-respecting Hindus cannot have her as the Vice President of the Dindu Dharma Rakshana Samiti nor can we have her associated with the HDAS. She cannot protect Hindu Dharma by being seen at a function to honor the Asuric and the Adharmic. This report with a photograph is on page 5 of today's Deccan Chronicle.



I request those who have any contact with Pujya Swami Dayananda Saraswati, President Dharma Rakshana Samiti and Convenor HDAS, to express our protest in extremely polite language. Pujya Swamiji must be made aware of our outrage but must not be treated to any disrespect or impolite language please.



From: Radha Rajan (radharajan7@gmail.com)

Date: Oct 23, 2005 8:34 AM

Subject: Padma Subrahmanyam in dubious function

I thought I'd read that "Padma" did more than merely snub the Kanchi Shankaracharya after he was framed by christianism... Yupp, I did, right here on IF itself:



india-forum.com/forums/index.php?/topic/975-sanatana-dharma-aka-hinduism-3rd-bin/page__view__findpost__p__94326



where Sandhya Jain wrote (2009) to Hindu Dharma Acharya Sabha/HDAS' Swami Dayananda Something Something (sorry, I can't be expected to remember everyone's name):

Quote:r Most unconscionable, however, is your persistent association on public platforms with the chartered accountant S. Gurumurthy and dancer Padma Subrahmanyam, who worked overtime to malign the Acharyas in Tamil society when this atrocity took place.

[...]

r Whatever her calibre as a dancer, Ms. Padma Subrahmanyam has no status on matters of Hindu Dharma. Yet it is said that you, as Convener, HDAS, sent her to represent Hindu Dharma in some bogus inter-faith dialogue with the Vatican in 2006! The veracity or otherwise of this information has been denied to us, despite persistent attempts, and is missing on the HDAS website.




4. Sumishi, you have wonderful optimism. (Almost everything about you keeps reminding me of a certain other IF member who went missing some years ago... Maybe your long-lost twin?)





5. Vishwas, you will soon enough tire of my complaining on IF, trust me.



The hardlining is because I am getting angry. Not at christoislamism - it's being its typically evil self, and one can't expect better - but at Hindus' would-be representatives (in the English language).





[quote name='vishwas' date='29 September 2011 - 09:02 PM' timestamp='1317309896' post='113087']Eventually, people like Rajiv Malhotra are going to make peace with some milder attacks on Hinduism, in order to appear reasonable.[/quote]This is utterly unacceptable. There can be no compromise. And that too for such worthless reasons as individuals appearing reasonable to the enemy of Hindu religion? And Hindus' religion must be sacrificed bit by bit for that? Not for any reason, and certainly not for this.

Malhotra's response to the enemy was essentially "Don't inculturate, but by all means dabble - even christoislamics welcome". Yet dabblers in themselves account for a large number of Hindus' enemies.



The problem is that, as happened with Yoga also, English-language vocalists for the Hindu side always argue in terms of "if the christowest just acknowledges it is Hindu, they are welcome to do it too". That is the response that is given by people who merely want recognition (flattery) before they will share. (Aseem Shukla of the Take Yoga Back movement expected the world to acknowledge that Hinduism gave the world Yoga, and seemed to be content with that.)



The fact is, Bharatanatyam, like [Hindu forms of] Yoga, is not shareable: it does not belong to the world. It is Hindu religious practice, for Hindus alone.



Hindus should be adamant and make the right and complete arguments at all times. No half-measures. Not unless Hindus want to end up in more trouble, the way Yoga is now "universal" -> "christian". (Good luck "Reclaiming Yoga". It's too late. Hindus think the Enemy will let them? Of course the good news is, the aliens don't have actual Yoga. They just have access to the word. But the Alien Dabblers have realised they don't actually have yoga and are working hard to change that.)

Inculturation: the OTHER christian conversion tactic - Husky - 10-01-2011

1. More remarks on:



Quote:christianizingbharatanatyam.blogspot.com/2011/09/anitha-rathnam-nothing-is-interesting.html

Quote:"Nothing is interesting in Ramayana for me"

Bharatnatyam dancer [color="#FF0000"]Anita Rathnam, [/color]part of Leela camp, associated herself with Inculturation specialist Rani David and claims in her 2007 event in Maryland: "Rani David laid down facts and demonstrated that [color="#0000FF"]Christianity existed along with Bharatanatyam and Sanga Thamizh, but history lost in time has given Christianity a western outlook"[/color]

Rajiv Malhotra's response at the link indicates that he mistakes Anita for a naive Hindu. I'm betting she's a calculating cryptochristian.

[...]

Note how the christian says "Christianity, Bharatanatyam and Sanga Tamizh" but no mention of Hindu.

I'm sure this is related to how christianism's history-writing intends on making it "Established History" that Hindu religion was "introduced" into the regions of Kerala and even TN in a late century. (Topic already alluded to in the Buddhism thread.)



[a] In the statement "Rani David laid down facts and demonstrated that Christianity existed along with Bharatanatyam and Sanga Thamizh, but history lost in time has given Christianity a western outlook", you can see Anita having been converted without her displaying the slightest awareness that that's what Rani David did to her: missionise on her.

Apparently Anita has a "PhD", but no brains to see mental manipulation.



[b] The whole turning Hindu religious practices into "art/exercise/spirituality/culture/civilisation/Indian" is at fault. Hindus acquiesced to that. That is why Bharatanatyam is presented as an "art" and people call themselves "artists" or "dancers", speaking of their "art". You can see the same christian pattern of appropriation take place with Kathakali, where cryptochristian inculturationists with Hindu names have stripped it of its Hindu identity by calling it "just art" before donating it to christianism as being "therefore equally christian".



The same is done with painting. It's now being presented as Hindu "art" that supposedly anyone can do/follow and Hindus are expected to recognise it as such. But there can be no such recognition because, in reality, the only imagery that represents Hindu Gods can be made by Hindus alone. The rest are not representations of our Gods at all. <- And that should be/should have been Hindus' response.



[c] Supposing, for the sake of argument, we imagined a scenario where "Christianity had existed along with Bharatanatyam and Sanga Tamizh" - as Anita declared - it can speak of no more than the presence of christianism in India in such a time. Bharatanatyam remains a Hindu Temple dance, its development was in Hindu Temples. And christians went to christian churches.



But I predict christians intend on developing their line of argument according to the following: "Since Hinduism didn't exist in Kerala and TN until 7th/8th century (=christian claim), there could have been no Hindu temples and therefore Bharatanatyam is likely to have developed in christian churches." (Ambedkarites regularly make that kind of argument about Hindu Temples that they want to claim for Buddhism, BTW.) First christianism may even claim Bharatanatyam and Carnatic music were "actually originally Buddhist or Jain", using the neo-buddhist foot soldiers, before transferring these to christianism. (Consider how Cilappadikaaram covers Hindu dance and music...)

If people think this is laughable and unlikely, so too were originally the claims made on a lot of Hindu things in the south (see Buddhism thread again): but by repetition and wikipedia-editing, it has all become "established history".





2. One more comment on this:

Quote:Eventually, people like Rajiv Malhotra are going to make peace with some milder attacks on Hinduism, in order to appear reasonable.

Again, like I said, if Hindus accept this now w.r.t. to Bharatanatyam, they should equally accept Malhotra or whoever else donating the Vedas and Vedic Rites as an equal "universalism" for christoislamania and other aliens to dabble in. (I anticipate they will do so in future. Trust angelsk-speaking Indian vocalists to not disappoint.) It holds equally. And christians will hold Hindus to it, the floodgates having already been opened - via the 'case' made for Bharatanatyam, which christianism merely needs to repeat for the Vedas etc:



Quote:If people can sell Bharatanatyam - which is a deeply and exclusively Hindu religious dance - to non-Hindus (in which term christoislamics are especially included), then we can sell the Vedam to them too on the SAME PRINCIPLES. No? Can't have it both ways. People either agree to both statements or disagree to both.



So this is the statement that Rajeev just made:

Quote:There is NO problem with a person performing the Vedic rites regardless of his/her own faith. Thats not the issue. Lets not misrepresent the issue. Pls read what i wrote in my response yesterday. its about inculturation as a public program to infiltrate hindus by deception.

[...]

But many Christians have difficulty doing Vedic rites this way, because it conflicts with their Christian indoctrination - worship of "false gods" and "idols" and so forth.

Now is the only moment for Hindus to denounce such statements (christianism construes silence as acquiescence).

Hereafter we may as well be silent.

Inculturation: the OTHER christian conversion tactic - Husky - 10-01-2011

Quote:11.The students learn to perform across a wide range of improvisations and stories depending on the given audience. From the most traditional to the most distant from tradition, there is a spectrum with the following stages:



12.1) very traditional Hindu

13.2) modern but still Hindu

14.3) use of Hindu symbols but without explaining their traditional meaning

15.4) symbols turned into decorations and generic spirituality, to be sprinkled in for exotic/ethnic beauty

16.5) total secularization

17.6) Christian stories, but still using the traditional dance grammar, dress, gestures

[color="#0000FF"]18.7) dancing stories of protest against the tradition's "oppression" against women, Dalits, etc.[/color]



The blue bit: they already do this. Consider:



kalakendra.com/shopping/bharatham-mahabhaaratham-kunti-p-2413.html

Quote:Product Name: Bharatham Mahabhaaratham - Kunti - Dvd

Product Model: SD561

Artists: Chitra Chandrasekhar Dasarathy

Manufacturer: [color="#0000FF"]Swathi's Sanskriti Series[/color]



Kunti chose me....

I was asked to bring her to stage.

I started reading her story again.

My assumed familiarity with her turned out to be limited to the mere story of her life....

Granted a “boon” at a young age by which she could bear a child by any god. [color="#0000FF"]Kunti battles society[/color], individuals and most of all, herself, through life.

[color="#0000FF"]Patriarchy and men[/color] decided the course of her life her father gives her away in adoption.



Durvasa grants her a “boon”, she is unable to enjoy conjugal harmony due to an accidental error in judgement by her husband. She realizes her folly at forcing Draupadi into a marriage to all five Pandavas but acquiesce to the proposal for the sake of her sons, Yudhisthira succumbs to the lure of gambling, Draupadi's disrobing by the Kauravas leaves her seething in anger yet powerless to halt the ignominy. Kunti's greatest personal loss and sorrow is the life she has foisted upon her firstborn child – Karna. He dies without being publicly acknowledged as her son. Why Kunti chose to remain silent about Karna through the course of the Mahabharata is, probably the greatest among the many enigmas in the epic. She does claim him as her son after his death. Having lived her life surrounded by a large clan and illustrious sons it is indeed ironic that her moment of assertion comes when she finally walks away from everything. This production traverses Kunti's life through her own experiences of the Mahabharata narrative. I have chosen to depict Kunti as the matriarch (though powerless) of the Pandavas, who is very human with her little foibles and yet comes across as this fascinating woman with whom men and especially women through all ages will identify. The textual material has been selected from the Mahabharata of Vyasa, Srimadbhagavatam and a Hindi poem Rasmirathi by Ramdhari Singh “Dinkar”.



Trained in Bharatanatyam from a very early age by her parents Prof CV Chandrasekhar and Smt. Jaya Chandrasekhar, Chitra Chandrasekhar Dasarathy has traveled long in her pursuit of expression and excellence. Her dance gives expression to her aesthetic sensibility as an artist of our times and her complete identification with the dance form. [color="#0000FF"]Chitra holds Master's degrees in dance and Sanskrit.[/color] Her involvement with other creative modes of expression like music and literature giver her dance and choreography a wider prespective. Chitra's precision in technique and sensitivity in presentation have been her strengths, much appreciated by her audiences.[color="#0000FF"] Her choreographic works apart from the traditional repertoire of Bharatanatyam include Geetagovinda, Samvada Hathor and I, Utsava, Vismaya Kuncha, Vagartha, Ratiranga and Kunti.[/color] Based in Bangalore Chitra continuous to perform, teach and choreograph.

And that's what happens when Mahabharatam/Ramayanam/etc are turned into "all-Indian heritage" instead of Hindus insisting they are - as they have ever been - exclusively Hindu religious texts. It is just like MF Hussain's attempts to spew on Hindu religion=Gods, but in the areas of Bharatanatyam or Kathakali etc instead.





Quote:Chitra holds Master's degrees in dance and Sanskrit.
This is often the case. The notion that imparting Sanskrit to "all Indians" will make them uh "nationalist" let alone Hindu is a mistaken one. Like everything the aliens and alienated and the christian and christoconditioned touch, Samskritam too will be made into a vehicle for subversion.





Lots of southern women including notably those of "brahmin" background are being alienated, turned into anti-Hindus, christo-conditioned and christianised in this manner. (Christianism does after all write manuals on how to convert every part of Hindu society, and every community of unsaved Indian society. Which is why Anita Rathnam was missionised in a different manner from how kids are usually missionised in the christian madrassas "schools" in India.)



But 'educated' women being specifically targeted with a specific form of subversion that works on them is nothing new.



web.archive.org/web/20080617225937/http://www.pinn.net/~sunshine/book-sum/porphyry.html

Quote:"Furthermore, we know from Augustine (City of God) that Porphyry complained of the influx of educated women into the church; in his Philosophy from Oracles, written around 263, he laments (en masque as Apollo, the god of enlightenment) that it is almost impossible to win back anyone who has converted to Christianity: it is easier, he says, to write words on water than try to use argument on a Christian.
Like I said: it is not their education, it is the secularisation and 'subtle' christoconditioning imparted during the entire process.

And secularised parents don't bother raising their kids Hindu* - just cultural Hindu - so you get deheathenised, seculars, and outright anti-Hindus like Rathnam and Dasarathy above.



(Heathenism is the one thing that is transmitted to next generations by heathen families and heathen society. That is, only a heathen environment/upbringing tends to transmit it. Meaning, failure to produce heathen Hindus is failure of Hindu family and society.)

Inculturation: the OTHER christian conversion tactic - HareKrishna - 10-01-2011

As many vaishnava say to me:Vishnu and Christ are the same person.

Others have similar opinions

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rVbJEOtGsGs[/media]

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yvwRIkdvTJY&feature=related[/media]

Inculturation: the OTHER christian conversion tactic - shamu - 10-02-2011

[quote name='HareKrishna' date='01 October 2011 - 05:33 PM' timestamp='1317470159' post='113102']

As many vaishnava say to me:Vishnu and Christ are the same person.

Others have similar opinions[/quote]

It is not Vaishnavas, only Hare Krishnas say that Jesus and Krishna are the same. BTW, Krishna and Vishnu are not the same. Former is one of the incarnations of the latter.

Inculturation: the OTHER christian conversion tactic - HareKrishna - 10-02-2011

[quote name='shamu' date='02 October 2011 - 12:42 AM' timestamp='1317495877' post='113113']

It is not Vaishnavas, only Hare Krishnas say that Jesus and Krishna are the same. BTW, Krishna and Vishnu are not the same. Former is one of the incarnations of the latter.

[/quote]

Yes,Hare Krishnas.They say that Krishna is the source of Vishnu not other way around.



Prabhupad learned here

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_Church_College,_Kolkata

The Scottish Church College is the oldest continuously running Christian liberal arts and sciences college in India.[2][3] It is affiliated with the West Bengal Board of Secondary Education (for the Scottish Church Collegiate School), the West Bengal Council of Higher Secondary Education for the awarding of baccalaureate and post baccalaureate diplomas, and with the University of Calcutta for graduate and postgraduate degrees.

Inculturation: the OTHER christian conversion tactic - shamu - 10-02-2011

Again, only Hare Krishnas say this (twisting Vishnu and Krishna), and not Hindus. Thanks for pointing out where Prabhupada studied. This just proves what Husky has been highlighting in this thread.

Inculturation: the OTHER christian conversion tactic - Husky - 10-02-2011

Should have called this thread inculturation, appropriation and dabbling. Wish I could edit the title.





From bottom right of the following page - "Veda" section:



www.kalakendra.com

Quote:No study of India is complete without understanding the [color="#FF0000"]Vedas[/color], the bedrock of the country's [color="#0000FF"]cultur[/color]al life. 'Veda' in Sanskrit means knowledge which it provides to lead a wholesome life sans any conflict or confusion. Interestingly, the topics covered by the Vedas are not bound by narrow parameters like time, region or religion. They are eternal and their relevance transcends all such barriers.

Oh look: the Vedas are turned into "the country's culture" - i.e. "Indian" "culture". Rather than *Hindu* religion. The same steps for appropriation are being followed as what they did for Bharatanatyam and Yoga. (Culture/Civilisation/Indian/Values were always a poor choice of words for Hindu religion, and more so when you're in a battle where your words *will* be used against you.)



The rest of what's said about the Vedas above is what the christo inculturationists, alien dabblers and new-ageists have been saying about Yoga too: that "it transcends Hinduism" and that it is "therefore universal" -



Reposting one of the comments to Aseem Shukla's ineffective attempts to retake Yoga in his article at washingtonpost:

Quote:The true purpose of yoga, as espoused by Patanjali, is to transcend all distinctions, including those between individuals, which would seem to include especially religious distinctions (i.e. this one is better than that one).



That the author fails to recognize this suggests rather strongly that he is not worthy of claiming the 'theft of yoga', for the simple reason that he has not yet understood, let alone 'realized', the true meaning of 'yoga'.



Yoga is NOT about Hinduism - it's much bigger - once realized, everything is transcended, including one's religious attachments.



To honor Hindusim for the significance of it's historical contribution (to yoga) is proper.



[color="#0000FF"]To claim that yoga without Hinduism is somehow wrong (as in 'theft') is the worse sort of religious condescension, and more importantly, to do so defies the fundamental teachings of yoga itself![/color]



One does NOT need Hinduism to realize the highest teachings of yoga. Indeed, one must drop religious trappings to do so.

[color="#800080"](First insists dropping Hindu religion from Yoga, thereby making it secular. Then, after some time, pseudo-religion - christianism - is introduced into the empty space thus created, making Yoga christian. They know what they're doing. Hindus don't.)[/color]



namaste,

clay



Posted by: cfmsp | April 20, 2010 11:01 PM

Report Offensive Comment

[color="#0000FF"]INSERT:[/color] As can be seen in the appropriation argument given for "Yoga" above, the universalising side tends to argue that Hindus are withholding what is the right of "all". This Playing Victim makes onlookers to the pseudo-debate imagine the appropriating side to be the correct one: clearly it is the victim, "evil Hindus won't share". (Thieves - like Clay above - require the semblance of reason/victimhood to mask their crime, else how can their thievery be legitimised in the public eye?)



The same "Hindus are illegaly withholding Bharatnatyam from the world" reasoning is at play behind the inculturationists' question to Malhotra (implied in his answer): that he is "upset" that aliens are dabbling in Bharatanatyam - implying that it is their right to do so, but that he would withhold them from it if he could. Again, alien onlookers will feel Hindus are unreasonable/petty in denying aliens and terrorists the right to what should "surely" be a "universal" "art".

But Hindus should keep denying the aliens forever, and invoke L/D/Nakota's declaration of war as example.





I'm afraid what the English-language vocalists/representatives for the Hindu side will have to say when the Vedam one day comes up as "disputed territory".

Will the argument go the same way as Yoga and Bharatanatyam? Recapping Hindu vocalists' arguments on appropriation of:

1. Yoga: "Just acknowledge it is Hindu, and all are allowed to dabble"

2. Bharatanatyam: "Inculturation not allowed. But all - including even christoislamaniacs - are welcome to dabble."



If the inculturating, appropriating and dabbling kind assume that the same logic therefore applies to the Vedam, one can hardly blame them for their conclusion, considering all the encouragement they've been getting so far on all other matters Hindu.



I certainly think the same logic does apply, but that 1 and 2 are entirely wrong. I.e. 1 and 2 should be "(Yoga/Bharatanatyam/...) has nothing to do with aliens and other non-Hindus." So that the same applies to the Vedam. In fact, that should form the universal response to all attempts to encroach on any part of Hindu religion.

Inculturation: the OTHER christian conversion tactic - Husky - 10-02-2011

Quote:[color="#800080"](ISKCON teaches)[/color] that Krishna is the source of Vishnu not other way around.
This is quite a standard part of ISKCON. Thought everyone at IF was aware of it and moreover okay with it. (Though there are Hindus who are annoyed with it.)





Quote:BTW, Krishna and Vishnu are not the same. Former is one of the incarnations of the latter.

Shamu,



I think many Hindus consider Vishnu's avataaram as Krishna to be identical to Vishnu - i.e. as "ultimately the same". In fact, Hindus can - and do - worship all his avataras as identical to Vishnu. The difference is as you said: Krishna like Raama and Narahari etc are avataaras of Vishnu and - at a minimum* - not the other way around. (There are some other differences as to the conscious avataras versus those who are considered to play the part more fully.)



* In northern parts of India, it appears there is a tradition where Krishna is not even considered an avataram of Vishnu in the sense that he is not listed as one of the famous 10 but rather as emanating the 10 for his being fully identical to Vishnu (perhaps this is because Krishna is supposed to be conscious of his identity all the time, i.e. a full avataram, or because he is considered a leelaavataram): e.g. I think in the Dashavataram song by Jayadeva - from what I can understand of it - Krishna is not listed as an avataaram but is replaced by Buddha after Balaraama. The 10 listed in this manner are considered avataras of "Vishnu=Krishna".

In southern parts of Bharatam, they will list all the famous 10 avataaras - including specifically Krishna - as being avataras of Krishna/Vishnu, i.e. where Krishna is identified with Vishnu. (The difference is that at least some parts of the south don't have Buddha as an avataaram.) But the very same is done for Narasimha and Rama for example: in stotras to these, the other avataras are frequently listed as equivalents, since all avataras are equivalents to Vishnu. E.g. I think Adi Shankaracharya in his stotra to Narasimha briefly calls out to Narasimha with some of the personal names of the Krishnaavataram.



Krishna seems to get popular/special consideration because of the centrality of the Mahabharatam to Hindus, the importance of the Gita, perhaps also because he is the most recent avataram (depending on whether Buddha is considered an avataram in people's local Hindu tradition or not), and of course because of the popularity of the SB puraNa. I thought I'd posted a link to a translation of MSS singing the verses on Krishna in Adigal's Cilappadikaaram. In any case, it also speaks of his avataras, since Vishnu is Krishna. The same can be seen in the 100-stotra-text on Guruvayoorappan: it is about incidents during various avataras of Vishnu, because the two are considered identical. You can again see this in Lakshmi stotras: she is addressed as the wife of various names of Vishnu including various names of Krishna - including identifying him by his exploits during Krishnavataram.

(Rama's avataram also gets special consideration because of the centrality of the Ramayanam to Hindus - not just VR, but also AR, RCM (in Hindi), and KR (Tzh) etc. Also, because the single line mantram which summarises Vishnu's entire 1000 names - and which is an important mantram for Hindus who are passing away - concerns Rama's own name. I.e. the name is considered the core to Vishnu's identity. But apparently not everywhere: in some parts they don't think Rama/Krishna are avataaras of Vishnu or even Gods, but humans. So applying the Taraka may not be a rite everywhere/would not have the same effect everywhere. Hindu traditions/views of the Gods seem to be more vastly different across the country than I had earlier considered.)



But - again, as far as I am aware - to Hindus, Vishnu is never less than Krishna, never less than identical.

IIRC, the Gita has Krishna (speaking as the Paramapurusha) identifying himself as "Vishnu among the Adityas" and "Raama among mankind's raajas", but then he also says he is "Krishna among Vrishni's sons" [but also as "Shankara among the Rudras" and many another distinct Hindu God is identified with his self], so he is no less Vishnu and Raama than he is Krishna. <- So ISCKON cannot use this bit from the Gita as argument for Krishna's primacy over Vishnu, because it lists Krishna himself as an equal among them (indeed, among the other Hindu Gods so listed).



The difference with ISKCON is that they insist that Vishnu is a sort of subset of Krishna (IIRC, like an amsham, with the purpose of sthiti). Again, from what I'm familiar with: Usually the range of indigenous Hindu POVs is that Vishnu is the paramaatma himself (including sriShti, stithi and samhaaram in himself), or is the paramaatma who when in company of the rest of the Trimoorti presides over/represents the sthiti aspect, or is the all-pervading (vishnu) with as his act sthiti, etc. In which case, whatever Vishnu is perceived as, the same is the perception again of all the avataaras: since Narahari or Varaha is considered no less the equivalent to Vishnu than Krishna is. (Actually this same range of views matches other Hindus' views of other Hindu Gods too.)

Inculturation: the OTHER christian conversion tactic - shamu - 10-03-2011

Husky, true Hindus consider Krishna to be identical to Vishnu. However, the incarnation of Krishna reaches its end when he gets killed by the arrow of a vanavasi.



What Hare Krishnas (ISKCON) do is to override Vishnu and replace it with Krishna. Things would have been perfectly genuine had they said that worship of Krishna is the supreme form of worship, while acknowledging it as an incarnation of Vishnu. They do a severe damage to Hinduism by twisting this, and then say Krishna is Kristu and hence Kristu is Vishnu too.

Inculturation: the OTHER christian conversion tactic - Husky - 10-31-2011

1. christianizingbharatanatyam.blogspot.com/2011/09/educating-rathna-kumar-about-leela.html

Quote:Educating local dancer about Leela Samson



Excerpted with permission from Malhotra, Rajiv and Aravindan Neelakandan, "Breaking India: Western Interventions in Dravidian and Dalit Faultlines," Amaryllis Publishers, Delhi, 2011

Chapter: 8. Digesting Hinduism into Dravidian Christianity

Section: Christianizing Hindu Popular Culture

Sub-section: The Leela Samson Scandal

Printed Pages: 120-123

Footnotes included



The Leela Samson Scandal

Rukmini Arundale, a guru who rescued the dance form from the era of colonial evangelism, speaks of dance as ”Sadhana which requires total devotion.”[1] Kalakshetra, the institution she founded to specifically stress the Hindu spiritual roots of Bharata Natyam, was recently captured by Christian evangelists led by Leela Samson. Samson started her connection to Kalakshetra as a high school student and went on to a career as a dancer and teacher. Rukmini had reservations about admitting Leela Samson, according to a contemporary guru who knew Rukmani:



Leela Samson a senior artist today, came to Kalakshetra as a young girl. Because of her Judeo Christian background she had not had much exposure to traditional Indian culture. [Rukmani] was therefore hesitant about including her as a student. However on examining her on various related aspects we found that she had the attributes of a good dancer. I then persuaded [Rukmani] to give her a chance and she did so, but with some reluctance.[2]



In 2005, Samson was appointed as the new director of Kalakshetra. In 2006, she provoked a media storm by justifying the elimination of the spiritual roots of Bharata Natyam. Trouble started in 2006 when Sri Sri Ravi Shankar, the head of “Art of living” meditation, expressed his concern over the attempt of Leela Sampson to thwart the participation of Kalakshetra students in the inaugural function of a “Health and Bliss” religious course being conducted by him in Chennai. According to Ananda Vikatan, a popular Tamil weekly, the most disturbing aspect was the reason cited by Leela Samson. She explained: “[color="#0000FF"]This function is concerned with Hindu religion. So Kalakshetra students need not participate in it.[/color]”[3]



This was soon followed by an article that appeared in Hindu Voice, a magazine run by Hindu nationalists, which claimed that under the Samson tutelage at Kalakshetra, most of the Vinayaka images for which regular poojas had been historically conducted by the students were removed. Only after a lot of criticism did she replace one image but not all. Samson ordered all prayers to the deity to be stopped, and the clothes adorning the deities were removed.[4] As this progressed into a major controversy, Samson was forced to react but denied all the charges. She made the claim that "Kalakshetra never had idols that were worshipped. A lamp was all that was lit in every place we worshipped, according to Theosophical principles and the highest philosophical principles upheld by our elders."[5]





Whereas Siva's Nataraja form represents the Cosmic Dancer, the dancing form of Ganesha has customarily been invoked by Indian dancer and worshipped before a performance. The suppression of these "idols" by Leela Samson was an attempt to detach Bharat Natyam from its traditional roots under the guise of secularization, and then remapping it within Christian theology and symbolism. Her response against “idol worship” contradicts her mentor and the institution's founder, Rukmini Arundale, who had defended the Hindu worship of various deities' images:

All the songs we dance to are of Gods and Goddesses. You may ask, “Why so many Gods and Goddesses? The only reply I can give is, “Why not so many Gods and Goddess?[6]



Rukmini did not support a vague notion of a “universal religion” and in fact specifically critiqued this sort of generic spirituality, saying:

Some people say ‘I believe in universal religion’, but when I ask them whether they know anything about Hinduism, they answer in negative. They know nothing about Christianity, nor about Buddhism or about any other religion either. In other words, universality is, knowing nothing of anything….Real internationalism is truly the emergence of the best in each….But in India when I say India I mean the India of the sages and saints who gave the country its keynote, there arose the ideal of one life, and of the divinity that lives in all creatures; not merely in humanity.[7]



In the morning assembly, Samson allegedly told the students and teachers that "idol worship" is superstition and should be discouraged at Kalakshetra. There were complaints that her hand-picked teachers explained the Geeta-Govindam in denigrating tones. The certificate that was designed by Rukmini Arundale with Narthana Vinayakar had the emblem of Siva on it. The present certificate has been changed and is without any Hindu symbols.[8]

Samson has been criticized for undervaluing the Hindu stories and symbols to the point of ridicule, comparing them with Walt Disney's characters, Batman and "the strange characters in Star Wars."[9] In contrast, Rukmini explains the deep meaning of symbolism in the ballad, ”Kumarasambhava”:



Why does the story of Kumarasambhava please me? It is because of the symbolism. Finally what Parvati wins is not passion but the devotion and sublimation of herself. Parvati wins Siva and she becomes united with Him, because she has discovered the greater, indeed the only way of discovering God. This is very beautiful symbology. Siva burnt to ashes all that is physical. So must a dancer or musician burn to ashes all thought which is dross and bring out the gold which is within.[10]

[color="#800080"](Actually, in the profound double-meaning sense, various readings of KS are valid, some even to do with Yoga. But the above botches even the reading closest to it.

But to reduce it all to "symbologism-onlee" is something uniquely modern-Hindu.)[/color]



She speaks of the Ramayana and Mahabharatha as the “essential expressions of Indian dance.”[11] Far from being manmade stories as Leela Samson considers Indian narratives to be, Rukmini Arundale speaks of Sri Rama, Sri Krishna and Buddha in the following manner:

Why was India a world power? Because Sri Krishna had lived in this country, Sri Rama had lived here and so had Lord Buddha. It was their Teaching that made India a great world power.[12]





Where Leela Samson sees the equivalents of Batman and Mickey Mouse characters, the founder of Kalakshetra sees great world teachers and symbolism of the most sublime kind. In Sampson’s appropriation, Bharata Natyam was denied its vital spiritual, devotional, aesthetic and pedagogical dimensions, and dragged down to the fantastic garish mass level of cartoons. Thus in Leela Samson’s own words the process of usurpation can be seen in its crucial stages: initially de-Hinduising and secularizing the art form and then Christianizing it.





--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



[1] (Arundale 2004, 20).



[2] (Sruthi (Jan 1996) 2005, 56)



[3] (Anantha Vikatan 20-Dec-2006)



[4] (Deivamuthu.P 2007)



[5] (Prakriti Foundation 2006)



[6] (Arundale 2004, 185)



[7] (Arundale 2004, 148-9)



[8] (Deivamuthu.P 2007)



[9] (Samson 2004)



[10] (Arundale 2004, 186)



[11] (Arundale 2004, 117)



[12] (Arundale 2004, 147)



Arundale, Rukmini Devi. "Philosophy of Dance." All India Radio, April 14, 1954.—. Some Selected Speeches and Writings of Rukmini Devi Arundale-Vol-I. Chennai: Kalakshetra Foundation, 2004.





Sruthi (Jan 1996). "Advice from a Veteran:Interview with Sarada." In Nirmalam-The Genius of S Sarda, by Anita Ratnam. Arangam Trust, 2005.



Deivamuthu.P. "Anti-Hindu activities at Kalakshetra, Chennai." Hindu Voice, April 8, 2007.—.





"Demolishing a Tradition at Kalakshetra." Organiser, April 29, 2007.





Prakriti Foundation. Prakriti Foundation Invitation . December 8, 2006. [color="#0000FF"]www.prakritifoundation.com/inv/kf.html[/color] (accessed August 10, 2009).





Samson, Leela. History And Myths of Indian Classical Dances. August 2004. [color="#0000FF"]www.4to40.com/discoverindia/index.asp?article=discoverindia_historyandmyth[/color] (accessed April 10, 2008).



And related:

christianizingbharatanatyam.blogspot.com/2011/09/anti-hindu-activities-at-kalakshetra.html

Quote:(Samson's) Anti-Hindu activities at Kalakshetra, Chennai

By P Deivamuthu