01-05-2010, 11:45 AM
(This post was last modified: 01-05-2010, 11:52 AM by Husky.)
There's a lot of confusing reports on what actually happened, but most of them I've come across tend to say something about there being more than merely one Indian community that got separated at the NW. If these were then travelling together for a long time and/or settled with each other for a long time outside India, they might have over time intermarried, perhaps moreso as they were all aliens in foreign lands. That might still allow Roma - some or many - to have some Jat ancestry as well as ancestry of other communities.
Anything additional known that would render such an explanation completely impossible?
Quote:When i look into the Mirror i see India, the craddle of civilization, the Mother of all Religions!
I don't know about cradle of civilisation and all. But Mother of all religions? Why? Why this universal need to reduce the world's natural religious diversity (I speak only of the natural traditions) to mono? For instance, can't the NA Native Americans have a religion of their own development, and its own independent origin?
And if India was found to not be the cradle of all civilisation and only the cradle of its own as well as being a seed for some satellite ones that sprouted or were enhanced by ours, and if it were not the mother of all religions, would it be less admirable? I think it's worth a lot for its own civilisation and for the native (Dharmic) religions it has given rise to.
[quote name='Husky' date='05 January 2010 - 07:23 AM' timestamp='1262672131' post='103344']
I don't know about cradle of civilisation and all. But Mother of all religions? Why? Why this universal need to reduce the world's natural religious diversity (I speak only of the natural traditions) to mono? For instance, can't the NA Native Americans have a religion of their own development, and its own independent origin?
And if India was found to not be the cradle of all civilisation and only the cradle of its own as well as being a seed for some satellite ones that sprouted or were enhanced by ours, and if it were not the mother of all religions, would it be less admirable? I think it's worth a lot for its own civilisation and for the native (Dharmic) religions it has given rise to.
[/quote]
I just praise and glorify India! Of course it would be not less admirable.
I am afraid Gypsy origins are more complex and will be hard to decipher yet. But here is my take on this: a few facts ( and not so factual opinions )
- Gypsies, have been in Eastern Europe ( Romania was the epicentre for them ) for several centuries. There are a couple of divisions among them, one is Roma and the other is Sinti. Roma is predominantly H and Sinti predominantly R2. Most likely both these haplogroups are due to drift and founder effect. A member, GSubramaniam mentioned that Gypsies are H and backward castes in India are H too. It would be very hard to go by just haplogroups along when dealing with small groups that migrated out in the ancient past. Roma do have a large R1a1 on the male side though, pointing to gene influx from their host countries.
- Haplogroup analysis by itself may not be very useful to study their origins. By Phenotype, they definitely look North India. And their cultural practices seem similar to some practiced in India, though many of their practices are also borrowed from local host populations.
If a small group of blood related Roma folks left india 1000 years ago and any haplogroup they belonged to would show in large numbers later in Europe.
- One plausible theory, about Gypsy origin is that, they left Northern India ( either on their own or by force ) and moved to Turkey/Anatolia region. One possibility is that Turks ruling India during medieval ages took some Indians captured during war as slaves or perhaps as some sort of entertainers ( palm reading or dancing etc ) to turkey. From Turkey they perhaps drifted to Romania, and from there to other E European countries.
It seems more likely they were entertainers ( than slaves ) as they seemed to have preserved their dancing, and singing and palm reading tradition. For slaves it is hard to maintain their traditional occupation for many centuries.
- ( This is a little controversial here though ) perhaps because of their lifestyle, there was no selection pressure to take up any other profession, other than singing, tarot reading and dancing and depend on the host population to live. So , in a way, may be this is why, they are finding it hard to assimilate to mainstream Europe.
- Personally i think , they may not be related to Jats. Their profession of singing, and fortune telling does not fit with the farming/martial life of Jats. Most likely, Roma ancestors in India, belong to some mobile tribe ( similar to Banjaras or Lambadi's or even similar to a tribe called NariKuravar's in TN ) that roamed N India. Narikuravar in TN, live in temporary camps, speak an IE language, wear colorful clothes, engage in fortune telling and collect waste.
01-05-2010, 05:51 PM
(This post was last modified: 01-05-2010, 05:51 PM by RomaIndian.)
[quote name='Krishna' date='05 January 2010 - 11:48 AM' timestamp='1262688004' post='103351']
I am afraid Gypsy origins are more complex and will be hard to decipher yet. But here is my take on this: a few facts ( and not so factual opinions )
- Gypsies, have been in Eastern Europe ( Romania was the epicentre for them ) for several centuries. There are a couple of divisions among them, one is Roma and the other is Sinti. Roma is predominantly H and Sinti predominantly R2. Most likely both these haplogroups are due to drift and founder effect. A member, GSubramaniam mentioned that Gypsies are H and backward castes in India are H too. It would be very hard to go by just haplogroups along when dealing with small groups that migrated out in the ancient past. Roma do have a large R1a1 on the male side though, pointing to gene influx from their host countries.
- Haplogroup analysis by itself may not be very useful to study their origins. By Phenotype, they definitely look North India. And their cultural practices seem similar to some practiced in India, though many of their practices are also borrowed from local host populations.
If a small group of blood related Roma folks left india 1000 years ago and any haplogroup they belonged to would show in large numbers later in Europe.
- One plausible theory, about Gypsy origin is that, they left Northern India ( either on their own or by force ) and moved to Turkey/Anatolia region. One possibility is that Turks ruling India during medieval ages took some Indians captured during war as slaves or perhaps as some sort of entertainers ( palm reading or dancing etc ) to turkey. From Turkey they perhaps drifted to Romania, and from there to other E European countries.
It seems more likely they were entertainers ( than slaves ) as they seemed to have preserved their dancing, and singing and palm reading tradition. For slaves it is hard to maintain their traditional occupation for many centuries.
- ( This is a little controversial here though ) perhaps because of their lifestyle, there was no selection pressure to take up any other profession, other than singing, tarot reading and dancing and depend on the host population to live. So , in a way, may be this is why, they are finding it hard to assimilate to mainstream Europe.
- Personally i think , they may not be related to Jats. Their profession of singing, and fortune telling does not fit with the farming/martial life of Jats. Most likely, Roma ancestors in India, belong to some mobile tribe ( similar to Banjaras or Lambadi's or even similar to a tribe called NariKuravar's in TN ) that roamed N India. Narikuravar in TN, live in temporary camps, speak an IE language, wear colorful clothes, engage in fortune telling and collect waste.
[/quote]
Not all Romas sing and dance. Some were servants, serfs (slaves of monasteries and household servants), some were black smiths, goldsmiths, etc. They were denied owning land in europe
[quote name='RomaIndian' date='05 January 2010 - 09:37 AM' timestamp='1262663960' post='103336']
Hello and Namaste my Proud Indian Brothers!
Im a Roma and i take pride in my indian origins. I looked for a indian pride/nationalist forum and found yours, im glad to be here.
There is a connection between Roma People and Jatt People
Connection with Romani people
There have been various speculative papers and books written[30] regarding the Jat and Romani people (also known as Gypsies).[31] There are serological[32] similarities shared with several populations that linked the two people in a 1992 study.[33][34]
In 2007 a limited medical survey of haplotypes frequently found in the Jat Sikhs and Jats of Haryana, and the Romani populations resulted in no matches.[35] However, the recent discovery in 2009 of the "Jat mutation" that causes a type of glaucoma in Romani people. The press release from Leeds University states:
"An international collaboration led by Manir Ali of the Leeds Institute of Molecular Medicine, first identified the ââ¬ËJattââ¬â¢ mutation in one of four Pakistani families. Further study amongst Roma populations in Europe showed that the same mutation accounted for nearly half of all cases of PCG [Primary congenital glaucoma] in that community. Manir Aliââ¬â¢s research also confirms the widely accepted view that the Roma originated from the Jatt clan of Northern India and Pakistan and not from Eastern Europe as previously believed."[36][37][38]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jat_people#...ani_people
[/quote]
Pakistani Jatts marry their cousins for generations and so have all kinds of diseases
Most Jatts are R1A1 and most Gypsies are Haplogroup H
[quote name='RomaIndian' date='05 January 2010 - 11:49 AM' timestamp='1262671895' post='103342']
This could be due to genetic drift. To look only on haplogroups is too simple.
[/quote]
Genetic drift cant make R1A1 into H or vice versa
[quote name='G.Subramaniam' date='06 January 2010 - 03:11 AM' timestamp='1262743399' post='103369']
Pakistani Jatts marry their cousins for generations and so have all kinds of diseases
Most Jatts are R1A1 and most Gypsies are Haplogroup H
[/quote]
Hmmm, but the same mutation was found in roma gypsies. haplogroups are not the only indicator.
[quote name='RomaIndian' date='06 January 2010 - 09:03 AM' timestamp='1262748326' post='103371']
Hmmm, but the same mutation was found in roma gypsies. haplogroups are not the only indicator.
[/quote]
The earliest version of R1A1 is called M17
M17 is rooted in India at 14000 years ago
The version of R1A1 in eastern Europe is M458
at 11000 years ago
M17 begat M458
Jatts begat Slavs 11000 years ago
Many of the Roma women were raped by Slav xtian oppressors
and this has given some of the Roma people R1A1 of the M458 type
[quote name='RomaIndian' date='06 January 2010 - 09:03 AM' timestamp='1262748326' post='103371']
Hmmm, but the same mutation was found in roma gypsies. haplogroups are not the only indicator.
[/quote]
RomaIndian,
It is wrong to look at genetic mutation for a disease as proof of genetic affinity, as much as it is incorrect to look at haplogroup alone. I see any attempt to trace a groups ancestry as some sort of jigsaw puzzle. Haplogroup, mutation for disease etc would be the individual pieces, one among many. The other pieces would be:
- Similarities in cultural practices
- Languages spoken
- Phenotype ( appearances )
- Religion
- Professions practiced , skills possessed
- Sub clusters within a given haplogroup ( this is a very important piece )
- Historical, literary references and sources
- Any folklore both in source and the new groups
- Archaelogical evidence, if any
Of course needless to say, in most cases, no one can ever hope to complete the entire puzzle, but fitting in the majority ( if not all ) of the pieces is good enough to draw inferences that can withstand scientific scrutiny.
Regds,
Krishna
I found something interesting, but im no subscriber so i cant view the whole article just the first page, its gonna link the romas to kshatriyas and rajputs. arent the jatts also descendant of rajputs? or they a common source of origin i dont know?
![[Image: 122.jpeg]](http://dio.sagepub.com/content/vol38/issue149/pdf_extracts/122.jpeg)
[url="http://dio.sagepub.com/cgi/pdf_extract/38/149/122"]Source[/url]
It will be great if roma convert to hinduism.The fact that they name the cross trishul sugest me that their primary religion was shaivism .
Also i suspect a strong jewish influence in their belive sistem for some reason.
The fact that they were usually banned from the orthodox church make me think that they are not loial to this church so it will be not a big problem for conversion.
It should be notted the huge succes that pentecostal church has among roma;20% of roma converted to pentecostalism in just a few years and this whitouth much efforts from the pentecostal missionary.
Their conversion to pentecostalism is good from my point of view because they stop their violent and ilegal activites(also this sugest that roma violence dont have a genetic cause otherwise they will continue to be violent despite their belives).
Next step will be to call them selfs indo-romas or roma-indian.
However what are the similarites whit jats and rajputs?
For sure high self-esteem and violent behaviour is common for both jats and roma.
I dont know if the bad-cooky language is common.
Especially some group of romas never wash (you know this by the 20 meter range of offensive smell that can split stones appart).I dont know if this custom has a christian ,indian or nomadic origin.
Jats are proud of their sense of justice .Seem they suffer greatly when somebody suffered an unjustice.Didnt observ this to romas.
Jats are farmers ,romas have different jobs then jats.However this can be an adaptation whit the new conditions.
I send a list whit 3 roma family names that sound to me original indian to a jat.However he didnt recognise any jat gothra whit that names.
Roma women are more agresive then roma man and this is also a similarity whit jatani being mor eagresive then jat man.
Now please sugest me some methods to convert romas to hinduism.How should i do?
[quote name='HareKrishna' date='20 January 2010 - 08:01 AM' timestamp='1263970435' post='103615']
Now please sugest me some methods to convert romas to hinduism.How should i do?
[/quote]
I dont know, i guess sending some romas who are willing to convert and act as missionaries to the roma settlements and telling them about hinduism. Also indian missionaries could be send to the roma. Im already a hindu at heart and call myself Roma-Indian or Indo-Roma. So if it worked for me it can work for others too.
The partid of roma was Partida romilor .The most roma voted whit the PSD (social-democrat party).The ex-president of Romania Ion Iliescu was half-roma half-bulgarian;His prime-minister Adrian Nastase was also roma.The maior of Bucharest sector5 Marian Vanghelie is also half roma half jew.The roma benefited of guaranteed income law which give them the 100$ on month from the state budget .
[quote name='RomaIndian' date='20 January 2010 - 12:45 PM' timestamp='1263971225' post='103618']
I dont know, i guess sending some romas who are willing to convert and act as missionaries to the roma settlements and telling them about hinduism. Also indian missionaries could be send to the roma. Im already a hindu at heart and call myself Roma-Indian or Indo-Roma. So if it worked for me it can work for others too.
[/quote]
When the climate will warm up i will try to approach some roma and propose them conversion to hinduism and check their reaction.A better method could be a meeting whit official and non-official roma leaders and propose a similar offer .
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