10-05-2007, 09:18 PM
(This post was last modified: 10-05-2007, 10:11 PM by Husky.)
<!--QuoteBegin-Bodhi+Oct 5 2007, 08:28 PM-->QUOTE(Bodhi @ Oct 5 2007, 08:28 PM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->So what we do want to fight against is the christoterrorism as you rightly say, but certainly we can not generalize the whole Indian Christian community into being a supporter of it - which it is not.
[right][snapback]73920[/snapback][/right]<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->I was indulging in some wishful thinking - it's all tangentially related to something Raju Thomas had threatened with: I was hoping US would give free visas to all those in India who had converted to christianity. But as I said, that wouldn't solve the problem of christianity trying to convert India. Besides, it was entirely unrealistic.
Christianity the religion is the problem, just like islam is the problem. There are many good people of the christian religion - but, like with muslims, it is only because these individuals are guided by their conscience (instead of their religion) which makes them tolerant of others. But when their religion guides its followers, you cannot distinguish between a christian and a muslim anymore: the faithful of both are the same, because they are then guided by the same intolerant principles.
In the Indian christian population - again, same as with muslims - the parents may be good, but the children may start following their religion properly. At which point they become True Christians, like:
- Europe Middle-Ages:
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->"Unbelievers deserve not only to be separated from the Church, but also... to be exterminated from the World by death."
-- Saint Thomas Aquinas, Summa Theologica, 1271<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->Cue the tortures and burnings of people.
- Korea, our times (in the wake of the christian vandalism of S Korean Buddhist treasures):<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->"If I acted on what I believed I, too, could have vandalized temples. When I consider those who commit such acts I think to myself that they have a much stronger faith than me."
-- Deacon Lee Bahn-Sung "a former Buddhist turned Christian", BBC-World (TV), Asia Today, May 21, 1999. [Link]<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->This is inexcusable. We can't afford to be blinded so much that we do not identify the ideology that incites these people to become so inhumane.
So long as they are a minority, large numbers of christians may still continue to think as individuals, and significant numbers of them will or may try to get along. But when they are in the majority it will be like the NE. And the same is true when they are in power (as they are now): the unconverted always feel it when christians are in charge in non-christian lands. (Example, Vietnam during the Vietnam war period.)
To ignore the real terror of <i>christianity</i> - by excusing it by pointing to some good individuals as 'examples' of how the religion in itself *cannot* be bad - is a fallacy and is not going to stop the same old consequences that befell every other people overtaken by the scary ideology.
Christians who have befriended you ('the Hindu heathen') are not christian at all (but that's wholly to their credit): "Do not be unequally yoked" is something that keeps even christian denominations apart, what to speak of friendship with an unsaved unsaveable?
Where do you think santa Thomas Aquinas - Doctor of the church (that is, considered a great theologian by the church itself) - got that "unbelievers deserve to be exterminated from the world by death" from? The bible. "Thou shalt have no Gods before me" (and not suffer any others to have them either - which you'll know if you read the gory genocides in that book which have long served as the terrible examples for those of the faithful who tolerated other religionists....).
BTW, perhaps I was not clear in my use of the term, but 'christoterrorism' is my name for the religion of christianity/christianism. It is not some imaginary subsection of christianity I have thus dubbed. It's like how I don't believe in some 'Radical/terrorist islam'. Islam <i>is</i> radical terrorism and christianity is too. People are not born terrorists. Their beliefs and principles make them so.
Throughout history and in every nation where it has spread, christianism (and islam) have hurt the indigenous cultures and committed unmentionable crimes against other humans. To excuse the religion while blaming the followers is too much (too much naivety and too great an insult to basic human decency), and it will mean the actual problem will be allowed to plague humanity forever. The unconverted's difficulty had generally been identifying the problem. But having identified it, one can't delude oneself into thinking the infected is at fault when the mind-virus is what's actually to blame. (But why care for the sensitivity of an ideology? It won't be offended. Though eluding identification-as-the-true-culprit is part of the clever defense-mechanism of intolerant ideologies. That's what keeps the mind-viruses/memes going strong.)
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->i do know many christians, probably minority, but still quite visible, who are very much against christian-ism.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->I don't know how christians can be against their own religion? Not sure what you mean. I know two <i>formerly</i> christian atheists who are anti-christian, one of them very much so.
These christians you know can be compared to the case of Abdul Kalam and others. That is, they are just good persons and see good and take what is good. I have no fears of good people and I am grateful for them.
I have fears - valid fears - of evil <i>ideologies</i>, especially when these ideologies start wielding influence over people who are not naturally conscientious but are always in need of external guidance. And most of the human population falls under that category. When the external guidance they accept is an evil ideology, the result is terrorism. People need to be shielded from christoislamism. And the only way they can be, is to know the truth about these religions.
As for my wishful thinking (on Indian christians emigrating to US shores) it was entirely in the hope that the intended future-splitting of India into various strife-ridden miniature 'Nagalands-for-christ' won't happen. But while we keep excusing christianity, ignoring the reality of that religion's record - including its current one in the NE and even closer to one's own home - it means we've learnt nothing and the same thing will happen everywhere else.
Ignorance would be bad in itself, but <i>knowing</i> christianity I can't afford to defend or ignore what it is merely because there are an X number of good people who <i>imagine</i> they are proper followers of that religion. Besides, that would mean I condone what that religion did to the native North Americans, Goans and others who died miserably at the hands of christianism. And that is in all ways unacceptable. It is dreadfully injuring to their memory when we allow their killer (christianity) to go scott-free (let alone be well-spoken of!). And if I were to do that, I deserve no better than their fate. While I was ignorant of the facts concerning the religion I could do that, but not now.
The only solution to christoislamism is education: educating Hindus and others on why it is to be avoided, and also leading christians and muslims to learn the truth about the religion they've somehow entered into.
10-05-2007, 11:17 PM
(This post was last modified: 10-05-2007, 11:21 PM by Bodhi.)
Husky, by the time I removed my post (which I did before I saw your response) to send it as PM to you, it is already late. So clarifications in order.
christianity = christian-ism = christoterrorism : both the ideological framework and its consistent past record, repeated many times and at many places, would attest to this. no doubt here.
my problem is only in assuming that all the people who appear to be following that religion also truely follow or consciously agree to its ideology. that is my trouble here - people, and not ideology.
The ideology is that which is evil, but what about the people who are by chance, by accident, by fraud, or due to lack of choice (such as being born to such parents?), forced to living in a religion of that ideology? That is my problem.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->some good individuals as 'examples' of how the religion in itself *cannot* be bad<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
no, no. my problem is not this. my problem is those 'good' individuals DESPITE (not because of) the religion. But as they do exist, as they continue within that religion for whatever reason - ignorant about its true nature, or unable to realize it completey, or not having enough courage, or just a momentum of inertia, or many other reasons - the confusion with me really is, how does one avoid targeting these people. And you are right, they may be unreal followers, far from their "true faith" which this ideology envisages, and eventually targets to re-convert into true faith, and yet, there is still nothing against them.
Wanting to fight the ideology without targeting these people. not possible?
One way, I think, is to target the ideology, along with specifically targeting (not literally) those people, past and present, who consciously and knowingly stand by, support or promote, that ideology, and at the same time, showing friendship towards the people who are accidentally there, not knowing where they really are, or if knowing not corageous to do anything about it.
So that was my only problem, a generalization of a group into one -"Indian Christians" - which includes people who are by compulsion in it, or by mistake, and certainly display the opposite traits than the generalizations often aims to show. Yet, the ideology, and its impacts on India, despite these people, might very well be generalized.
10-06-2007, 07:45 AM
(This post was last modified: 10-06-2007, 08:18 AM by Husky.)
<!--QuoteBegin-Bodhi+Oct 5 2007, 11:17 PM-->QUOTE(Bodhi @ Oct 5 2007, 11:17 PM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->my problem is only in assuming that all the people who appear to be following that religion also truely follow or consciously agree to its ideology.[right][snapback]73933[/snapback][/right]<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->I've ne'er assumed this. I know there are many who don't know what they're following, so they end up following their conscience/reason, thinking that that's allowed in christianism.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->no, no. my problem is not this. my problem is those 'good' individuals DESPITE (not because of) the religion. But as they do exist, as they continue within that religion for whatever reason - ignorant about its true nature, or unable to realize it completey, or not having enough courage, or just a momentum of inertia, or many other reasons - the confusion with me really is, how does one avoid targeting these people.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->I am assuming you mean 'targeting them with education'. It certainly won't injure them to know the truth. Some may feel stung by the knowledge/revelation initially, but when they realise it is nothing more than the truth, they will be immune from falling into such memetic traps ever again. It is for their own good.
Also, their ignorance of christianity's true colours won't ensure that their descendents remain ignorant of it and therefore tolerant. 'Radicalisation' is the disingenuous name media has given to the process of christoislamis discovering what the true commandments of their religion are and fully accepting them. With the world becoming smaller, many an impressionable person born into/induced into christoislamism is going to go the same way.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->eventually targets to re-convert into true faith, and yet, there is still nothing against them.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->If faith means religion here, then there are many 'true faiths' (of course, am not including the evil ideologies in here).
Of course there is nothing against good individuals. But that their religion is a sleeping timebomb waiting to suck both them and everyone else into the abyss, you must allow.
My momentary indulgence in daydreaming about the US opening the floodgates and allowing Indian christians into America (which will result in every single one of them jumping with eagerness to leave, unless they were busy heeding the missionary call to convert heathenistan) is simply due to the fact that <i>the entire body of Indian christians represent the christian meme in India</i>. It does not matter that any number of them may be good: they are unwitting sleepers and, like I said, their children may be seeds that grow properly according to the christian meme. Christianity's only foothold in any nation is through followers present in that nation or the missionaries who somehow get entry into it. Its only active power is through people carrying out its ideological plan. So if ICs were ever allowed to migrate to those greener christian pastures and availed themselves of that opportunity, the meme in theory would (temporarily) no longer have a foothold in India. But as I said, it's not a realistic fancy. The whole point of christianism (and therefore its faithful followers) is to make the country itself for christ. And <i>every</i> country.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Wanting to fight the ideology without targeting these people. not possible?<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->Educating people on christianism should first start with educating Hindus: preventing further losses to that intolerant ideology must be the first step.
Only thereafter must the turn come to educate christians of what exactly their religion entails and demands of them. Many of them have no idea what's in that sordid babbling book. Once they acquaint themselves with it, most will choose humanity over (blind) faith in the notion that whatever horrors it contains it must 'nevertheless be the word' of some real gawd.
What belief-system or non-belief system they choose afterwards is none of my concern. It is their own personal choice. I hope they may consider to investigate the traditions of their ancestors - whatever Dharmic path that were - if only for the fact that it would be an act of restoration (of what has been near-irreparably damaged by christianism). But, as long as they don't jump into some other intolerant ideology (christoislamicommunazism or psecularism, or some anti-Dharmic self-proclaimed 'rationalism' as opposed to natural agnosticism), I really don't mind.
But we are doing neither them nor ourselves any favours in letting them continue in their delusion, because, in this case, their delusion is harmful to everyone concerned. A friend told me that the thought of hell drove him to the greatest anxiety (and it still has its effects!) and therefore argued that christianism is the greatest enemy of the follower. But I'm rather of the opinion that it is equally harmful to the unsaved as it is the saved.
A wholly christian nation - especially the recently converted kind that comes under christian leadership and therefore will be rabid and have no state-church separation as W Europe now has - will go in the direction of medieval Europe: where the christians soon became the victims of christianism, because christianity <i>will</i> have blood and there were no longer heathens to be had in Europe.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->showing friendship towards the people who are accidentally there, not knowing where they really are, or if knowing not corageous to do anything about it.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->I no longer know any christians: many of those who considered themselves something of the sort (named themselves 'christian') when they were very young, have long turned atheists. Others - who tell me they were consciously christian - have turned anti-christian atheists, because they felt the actual pinch. (These are not Indians, though.)
But as for friendship, one can always and most easily be friends with any persons who are accepting or at least tolerant. It's the intolerant kind that drives sane people away.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->So that was my only problem, a generalization of a group into one -"Indian Christians" - which includes people who are by compulsion in it, or by mistake, and certainly display the opposite traits than the generalizations often aims to show.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->I don't understand. The usual generalization - or PR campaign, as I think of it - is to show how christians are unique in 'loving their neighbours', being peaceful, and - oh yes - being 'persecuted for their oh-so-wonderful-beliefs' without ever telling us <i>why</i> anyone would want to persecute peaceful loving people in the first place. And more such blablabla. However, peaceful and neighbourly behaviour is something every average human displays. (While actual christianity instills some other understanding of 'love'.)
I have heard of no other generalization of christians.
The problem is that for the average christians and muslims (even most sleepers), their first allegiance will invariably be to their religion: if push comes to shove and looks like they'll be getting what they want, most of them will turn against the unconverted. In Kashmir, long-time muslim neighbours and friends turned against Hindus. In Nagaland, ancient ties of community meant nothing anymore and value of others' life doesn't either. They are willing to kill for their christ and for their Nagaland-for-christ. The same thing that made it so easy for them to cut all that bound them to their ancestors and dear beliefs, made them it easy for them to cut humans too.
It is the compulsions of intolerant christoislamism that make regular people do so. Nothing else would or could turn generally good people into inhumane monsters.
In Kerala they actively work to have control over educational and political institutions and are preventing Hindus from the same. In TN, they have been strategically overtaking many hospitals, schools (still with Hindu name intact), even major stores (Landmark used to be owned by Hindus) and Thamizh websites/forums. But then, in TN, it's still in the starting phase.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Yet, the ideology, and its impacts on India, despite these people, might very well be generalized.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->Facts can stand well enough on their own without generalisation. And the truths about the religion are not generalisations: they are simple, straightforward facts.
Besides, we don't want stereotyping - <i>either</i> kind of stereotyping. We've thus far lived with regular ads on how 'christians are the nicest individuals, because jesus was the greatest and christianity is the best'. However, the facts are that: christianity is horrid and intolerant, the non-existent jesus left behind a legacy of strife for the saved towards the unsaved, and christians have more often than not followed the intolerant - often murderous - path laid down for them by their religion.
We don't need the other type of stereotyping either. What we want is people to finally
- recognise christianity for what it is,
- understand why it is that christians have behaved and continue to behave intolerantly (as opposed to us sweeping such instances under the rug as being somehow unchristian when they are in fact most precisely christian - again, this is because of christianity's PR campaign which makes Hindus and others keep falling for some 'unchristian vs True christian' claptrap), and
- why we should not let the religion gain any further ground (that is, not allow it to swallow up more people).
But it is not wrong to state the truth: Such as how Syrian christians continue to lie about their non-existent Thomas being murdered first by Hindus X, then by Y and now by Z. This is libel, just as what has been forced onto Jews with the insiduous 'Jews killed jeebus' fable. And that has been used to discriminate against, persecute and murder Jews with. So don't take such libel lightly.
I have not heard of a single vocal Syrian <i>christian</i> (as in <i>religious</i> christian, not just non-religious person of that community) coming out publicly and saying: 'but X, Y and Z did not kill Thomas at all'. At best, all the religious Syrian christians write is excuses and say that at the end it is a 'matter of faith' so we 'shouldn't scrutinise it too closely' or even criticise it. Because anything more from their end would amount to admission of Thomas being myth and modern christian mythmaking. Is that what humanity is reduced to: continuously lying about others to vindicate their own faith? And then keeping quiet on their own historical atrocities on Hindus and Hindu temples, all while accusing Hindus of intolerance and atrocity.
I'm ever reminded of Dark Helmet ('Spaceballs') - quoted earlier and I may keep quoting the character in future too, because it's so well-phrased:
"Now you see why evil always wins. Because good is dumb."
(Dumb may be an excessive word. Or maybe I'm just not willing to accept the label.) But we are certainly hopelessly naive - especially in our willingness to continue to make excuses/plead for some ray of goodness in intolerant religions, arguing for not nipping them in the bud so that we thereby spare the feelings of their adherents. And this naivete may well be the end of us, as it has been of every other people suckered into the christoislami trap.
It bears remembering that the intolerant meme is built to thrive on our tolerance, that it in fact induces excessive tolerance (via PR, and its mild infectious bite/inoculation called 'psecularism') and then - when we're giddily psecularly tolerant - we're run over. (Intolerant memes are those based on the principle 'it's my way or the highway' AKA the 'you're either for us or against us'/'dar-ul-islam vs dar-ul-harb'/'if you're not with us communists you are a fascist' principle.)
If we won't learn caution from history and the other examples around us, perhaps we deserve to be extinct. I doubt that if the Ancient Romans were given a chance they would ever allow it to happen to them again - the Greeks certainly wouldn't have stood for it. Even so they went out with a bang: the Romans and Greeks wrote book after book exposing christianity, and, until the very end, a great many Greco-Romans had to die for refusing to give up their real religion. Unless we finally wake up to these memetic diseases - which have nothing less than utter conquest in mind - we'll flicker out with nothing more than a whimper.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Note:
Please censure and discipline her and state categorically that NASA does not support her Hindu propaganda and that she does not speak on behalf of NASA.
Raju G. C. Thomas
Allis Chalmers, Distinguished Professor of
International Affairs,
Marquette University, Wisconsin.
[Author and editor of 13 books and 70 articles on
India and South Asia, and most recently contributing
co-editor of the 4-volume "Encyclopedia of India,"
Macmillan-Gale, 2005.]
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/indiathink...sage/13085
RSS goes space trekking .
Sat Oct 6, 2007 3:53 pm
From: Raju Thomas
Date: 6 Oct 2007 00:14
Subject: Re: Proud to be from an RSS family' - Sunitha Williams
Below is an edited version of my letter to NASA.
============================
public-inquiries@...
Public Relations
NASA Headquarters
Houston, Texas
Sir:
We protest statements by Ms. Sunitha Williams attributing her sucessful NASA space flight experience to her family's membership of the Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh (RSS).
The RSS is the militant paramilitary branch of the radically intolerant Hindu organization, the Hindu Maha Sabha (HMS). The HMS was banned in India after one of its members, Nathuram Godse, assassinated Mahmatma Gandhi in 1948. The RSS, of which Sunitha Williams is a proud member, is an anti-Muslim and ant-Christian organization responsible for the persecution, attacks and killings of Muslims and Christians in India.
The RSS is the equivalent of the American KU KLUX KLAN in India. Their goal is a pure Hindu India (similar to a pure White America here by the KKK) by converting, killing or expelling Muslims and Christians. A recent public statement by the RSSÂ declared that the more than 200 million Muslims and Christians of India must either convert to Hinduism, or be expelled (no indication where), or live as second class subordinate citizens acknowledging the supremacy of Hinduism, in a Hindu India to be renamed "Hindutva."
The Archeological Survey of India debunked Sunitha Williams claim, and that of other Hindu fanatics, that there exists a supposedly 5 millennia-old bridge that the mythological god Ram crossed from India into Sri Lanka to rescue his wife Sita kidnapped by an evil monkey god, Ravana.
The "Ram Sethu" (Ram bridge) that Hindu fanatics and Sunitha Williams claim exist, is a mythical bridge in the imagination of the Hindu faithful. It does not exist.. Yet Sunitha Williams told Hindu audiences in India that "I took pictures of the bridge between India and Sri Lanka from the space station".
Please censure and discipline her and state categorically that NASA does not support her Hindu propaganda and that she does not speak on behalf of NASA.
It is an outrage that you sent this member of the Hindu fanatical right wing RSS family into space so that she could make propaganda on behalf of the Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh, a group that is anti secular India and calls for a Hindu state. The RSS has threatened the life of Sonia Gandhi (the Italian Catholic widow of Rajiv Gandhi who was assassinated by a Tamil Hindu fanatic). After led her Congress party to a resounding win at the last Indian national elections, she was forced into hiding rather than become the duly deserved Prime Minister of India. Sunitha Williams and her family belong to this Hindu extremist group.
.
Raju G. C. Thomas
Allis Chalmers, Distinguished Professor of
International Affairs,
Marquette University, Wisconsin.
[Author and editor of 13 books and 70 articles on India and South Asia, and most recently contributing co-editor of the 4-volume "Encyclopedia of India,"
Macmillan-Gale, 2005.] <!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Current Catholic Pope was a member of Hitler Youth, not sure what Raju will do now, change his religioin or ask world to send pope to Mars.
10-08-2007, 06:08 PM
(This post was last modified: 10-08-2007, 06:20 PM by Husky.)
More of christo Raju Thomas' lies:
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->(Says liar RT  The RSS has threatened the life of Sonia Gandhi (the Italian Catholic widow of Rajiv Gandhi who was assassinated by a Tamil Hindu fanatic).<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->Rajiv was assassinated by an LTTE <b>christian</b>:
http://koenraadelst.voiceofdharma.com/arti...m/2murders.html
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Indira and <b>Rajiv</b> were killed not for any peace efforts but for their military actions: against the Khalistani separatists and against the <b>Liberation Tigers of Tamil Eelam</b>, respectively. Unlike Rabin and Sadat, they were not killed by radical members of their own community, but by Sikh bodyguards and by a <b>female Christian Tamil suicide bomber</b>, respectively.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->That just goes to show <i>yet again</i> that everything Raju Thomas says can be discarded as more christian lies.
http://koenraadelst.voiceofdharma.com/arti...rasschaert.html
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Christians are not above the human inclination to vengefulness. Christian channels of information in India like to take a holier-than-thou attitude vis-a-vis Hindu-Muslim violence, but it may be recalled that in Nagaland and Mizoram, armed separatism is 100% Christian, and Christian Kukis are ethnically cleansed by Christian Nagas. <b>Less well-known but even more sinister is the role of the Church in Tamil separatism in Sri Lanka. Many of the Tamil Tigers are Christian, including the late miss Dhanu, Rajiv Gandhi's suicide-murderer.</b> The Church would like to get rid of the assertive Sinhalese Buddhists, who do not indulge in self-deluded Hindu nonsense that "all religions say the same thing", but firmly oppose the Christian mission.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->Ooh, loser christo-liar Raju Thomas really shot himself in both feet with that one, didn't he?
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->(Says rabid christian fascist and liar Raju Thomas Please censure and discipline her and state categorically that NASA does not support her Hindu propaganda and that she does not speak on behalf of NASA.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->I hope they may censure and discipline Raju Thomas and state categorically that christian lying is not acceptable and he does not speak on behalf of anyone.
Can someone in the US sue him for lying and libel?
<!--QuoteBegin-Mudy+Oct 7 2007, 09:21 PM-->QUOTE(Mudy @ Oct 7 2007, 09:21 PM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->Current Catholic Pope was a member of Hitler Youth, not sure what Raju will do now, change his religioin or <b>ask world to send pope to Mars.</b>
[right][snapback]73999[/snapback][/right]<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd--><!--emo&:lol:--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/laugh.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='laugh.gif' /><!--endemo--> Good one. One-way trip to Mars.
(No similarities whatsoever between Hitler Jugend and RSS of course.)
This email conversation was forwarded to me. The old man's loosing his marbles with age.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Raju Thomas <@yahoo.com>
Date: Oct 12, 2007 11:47 PM
Subject: Re: Is it Possible to be a Hindu Follower of Christ?
To: venkat @gmail.com>
If the message of Christ was allowed to be preached
freely to the Dalits and the backward castes, there
would be 300 million Christians in India. If I was a
low caste Hindu, I would be willing to give all I have
to become a Christian. I'll pay.
The constitution says that if a Dalit converted to
Buddhism or Jainism or Sikhism, their special
privileges will continue. But if he converts to
Christianity, it will be denied. I wonder why. Is it
because they will all rush to become Christians?
There is nothing to crow about Hinduism. Some leading
world figures who will remain nameless, called
Hinduism an "evil religion," the "devil's religion"
and an "ugly religion."Â Ignorance and intolerance no
doubt. But throwing mud and hate at Christianity will
not improve this image of Hinduism. The world is what
it is today because of the Christian West.
Agnosticism and atheism is the new order in the
present age of science and technology. Europe and
China are agnostic or atheist because of advanced
education and economic prosperity. There will be no
rush to become Hindus even if you propagated by
handing out money.
I would say that the Hindus who take money from
missionaries and convert and then reconvert back are
nothing more than dishonest crooks. An honest person
who did not believe in Christianity would decline the
money and walk away. Shall we call them typical
Hindus?
I do not wish to deal with all this Hindu hate and
mudslinging at Christianity or any inter-religious
hate and mudslinging. The sooner all the ancient
religions from the age of ignorance vanish, the
better.
Please take me off your email list.
==================
--- venkat wrote:
> As I have maintained money/social inducement is the
> main reason people > convert to Christianity. Caste
matters would be a > distant second. If Hindus
> could tackle that ...we can significantly curb major
> conversions in the
> rural/slum/poverty stricken areas.
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
We have questioned Harvard's standards for over 3 years now.
Nothing new, business as usual at Harvard.
In a New Era at Harvard, New Questions of Standards
When they lower standards by hiring incompetent biased and shoddy "scholars" like Witzel as professors, what's the big deal in moving the bar a bit lower for some inner city students who play well?
I don't get it.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Dear Friend,
Last month, the Discovery phase came to an end in CAPEEM's lawsuit against the officials of the California Department of Education (CDE) and members of the State Board of Education (SBE) and we thought this would be a good time to give you an update on the status of the case.
As you may recall, we first filed the lawsuit in March 2006 pointing out that SBE had adopted textbooks that not only indoctrinated children with Abrahamic religions but also disparaged Hinduism. In addition, CDE had used hostile advisers to advice them on Hinduism had discriminated against Hindus during the adoption process. The complaint was filed by Venkat Balasubramani, a Seattle based attorney, and Mike Newdow, a Sacramento based attorney, joined our legal team in late 2007.
Within a few months of filing our complaint, we had to overcome two motions to dismiss our lawsuit. The Discovery Process began towards the end of 2006 after the court ruled in our favor on the second motion. We served a number of subpoenas to various parties including textbook publishers, Hotmail, Dalit Freedom Network, Michael Witzel, Stanley Wolpert, Charles Munger, Dalit Solidarity Forum operating out of St. Alban's Church in New Jersey , and also sought documents from the officials of CDE and SBE.
The subpoenas and discovery requests resulted in us obtaining over 25,000 pages of documents. While we obtained several incriminating documents, we had to file a motion to compel Michael Witzel to part with documents he withheld. Witzel handed over many documents before the scheduled hearing in court, but we did not obtain his communications with third parties unrelated to the dispute as the judge stated that they were not necessary for us to make our case.
We appealed this ruling, and in July this year, the appeals court reaffirmed the decision of the lower court and stated that we had already been given most of what we had asked for. <b>However, Witzel turned over some more documents including an email uncovering the fact that the CDE had conducted a secret meeting that was previously unheard of. This meeting with anti-Hindu groups was in addition to the secret meeting that CDE had conducted with Witzel and others.</b>
Among the documents that we received from other sources, we found extensive links between churches and key people involved in the adoption process. The counsel for CDE was in touch with her pastor and other emails showed that the CDE staff acted to assign arbitrary dates to biblical events. Curriculum Commissioner Charles Munger reported his victory to a member of his religious group and also gave detailed instructions to the counsel of CDE on how to handle questions regarding the description of the crucifixion of Jesus.
We also uncovered a link between Michael Witzel and Dalit Freedom Network (DFN), a group that operates out of a church in Colorado . <span style='color:red'>Witzel coordinated his campaign with DFN and planned in advance the details of what would be spoken at meetings. Witzel also sent an email alerting DFN to the description of their organization on Wikipedia and stated that whenever he erased the description, it kept coming back. An office bearer of DFN followed up on this email by saying that she did not want to "start being identified as a missions organization" and wanted to know if they could edit it themselves.
</span>
In March this year, we informed you that the court had rejected the defendants' motion to dismiss the case. In that motion, the defendants had alleged that we had the same interests as the Hindu American Foundation (HAF) and were in privity with them. We argued that we represented different interests and that the nature of our lawsuit was different from the HAF lawsuit.
After we sent you that message, there has been a tremendous amount of activity in the lawsuit. The defendants filed a motion to reconsider the judgment and the judge once again ruled in our favor saying that the defendants had merely rehashed their arguments.
In the past few weeks, we conducted a number of depositions. Among those whom we deposed were CDE staff member Tom Adams, former Chair of SBE Ruth Green, Curriculum Commissioner Charles Munger, Michael Witzel and other staff members of CDE. We also obtained a signed statement from CDE's expert Stanley Wolpert. After carefully reviewing the data in our possession, we decided not to depose James Heitzman as we determined that despite his bias, he was not that important and we would gain nothing new from deposing him. Moreover, the defendants' attorneys agreed to let us use documents related to Heitzman as evidence without additional identification from him.
On our side, a director of CAPEEM and two parents whose names we submitted as representative parents were deposed. The defendants also deposed their own expert Prof. Shiva Bajpai.
Finally, we filed a motion to compel the defendants to hand over a few more documents that were withheld. We withdrew the motion after they agreed to give us the documents we sought from them.
The resource intensive Discovery Process came to an end a few days ago and it would not have been possible for us to successfully complete this phase without your support. Last year at this time, we were short of funds and appealed to you for your support after putting the case on hold and entering into settlement talks.
This week, as the case enters the next phase, we will put forward the names of our experts and turn in their reports. Although the Discovery phase was the most expensive part of the lawsuit, the remaining part of the lawsuit will also use up substantial resources. We look forward to your renewed support and hope you will donate liberally and help make this case a success.
You can donate to CAPEEM by writing a check in favor of CAPEEM and mailing it to
CAPEEM
PO Box 280442
Northridge , CA 91328
You can also donate online by going to http://www.capeem. org
and clicking on the link to donate. CAPEEM is a 501©(3) tax exempt
organization with tax ID 56-2565521.
Thank you,
Arvind Kumar
Director, California Parents for the Equalization of Educational
Materials<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
came via email:
It's sad that our eminent hysterian (dishonest and hostile academic) who uses the Wales chair for his gigantic behind's feeling heat for his shoddy work.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->
http://sites.google.com/site/kalyan97/sara...du-civilization Updated.
Hindu civilizational continuum (Book revie -2: Talageri's The Rigveda and the Avesta, 2008, with particular reference to critique of Witzel's unscholarly, unethical, dishonest, abusive, flip-flops)
Posted on the web at http://www.scribd.com/doc/8775936/witzel2
In my first review of the book published on Nov. 18, 2008 ( http://www.scribd.com/doc/8116692/Talageri Annex 2 for ready reference), I had focused on the key points made by Shrikant Talageri in affirming the chronological sequence of Rigveda and Avesta.
I present a second review, pointing to the raison d'etre for Talageri's work: critiquing the 'scholarship' evidenced by Michael Witzel, a Harvard Professor.
I earnestly suggest that both Witzel and Hock should read Talageri's book (2008). If they need copies, I can have them couriered, provided I get the mailing addresses and a request. This suggestion is particularly directed to both Witzel and Hock whose false claims are shred by Talageri into pieces, with remarkable collation of evidence and scholarship.
If both Witzel and Hock do not read Talageri's work and do not respond to the specific points made by Talageri, I will have to continue Review 3 with particular reference to Hock's spurious linguistic arguments, also exposed by Talageri.
Shrikant Talageri has critically referred to Witzel throughout the book. Special sections dealing with him are chapter 1 (p.49-53), chapter 3 (p.117-129), chapter 5 (p.168-175), chapter 6 (290-307), chapter 8 (p.347-354). A few bon mots from these pages are annexed (Annex 1) so that the readers are encouraged to read Talageri's work in original. This is intended to show a flavour for the arguments of Talageri to fully expose the spurious scholarship of Witzel.
I strongly urge Witzel to read the above cited pages, and answer every point if he can; he also has the option to read the entire book. Of course, he will try to get away from this exercise as usual by breezy references to Talageri's profession as a bank employee and will avoid replying on the grounds that it is not necessary to do so! But other readers can draw their own conclusions.
Talageri has, demonstrated, with irrefutable evidence, Witzel, for example:
<b>1. making up stories out of thin air (e.g., converting Vasistha into an Iranian and finding all kinds of evidence for this, p.50-52) ,
2. to be a confused 'scholar', forgetting on one page what he has written on another and therefore contradicting himself thoroughly (e.g., he makes Visvamitra the head of the coalition against Sudas in the Battle of the Ten Kings and has Visvamitra defeated and humiliated in this Battle, and then elsewhere he has the Visvamitras glorifying Sudas' victories in this very battle, p.52-53. Similarly, Witzel describes the Aryan incursion as the trickling-in of one Afghan Aryan tribe into the Indus area and emphatically rejects the idea of a violent military invasion, and then he himself describes a violent military invasion in detail, p.321-322), and
3. writing exactly the opposite after reading Talageri's book The Rigveda A Historical Analysis of what Witzel had written before reading it (for example on the Ganga, p.125-128, and on the Rigveda itself, p.348-353).Â
Talageri's work is a veritable expose of Witzel's 'scholarship'. Is Talageri trying to pour water on a duck's back? The duck will swim away, the spurious Professor stays on with water wetting most of his slippery work and demonstrating an example of motivated, dubious scholarship.
Sotto voce
J'accuse Harvard University of retaining and encouraging an academic who is intent only on denigrating the world heritage represented by the cultural foundations provided by Samskrtam.
</b>
It is doubly shameful that the University has allowed the Prince of Wales chair to be sullied by acquiescing in gross violation of academic ethics by an occupant of the furniture. Many instances of conduct unbecoming of a Harvard University have been brought to the notice of Harvard Corporation and no action has been taken. (See Vishal Agarwal's critique, Shree Vinekar's critique available on Harvard U. files. I will be happy to provide the references, if asked for). It is time for the prestigious institution to review, de novo, the contribution to knowledge made by this chair on the lines of the reviews undertaken in German schools resulting in the closure of Sanskrit/South Asia studies. It is tragic indeed that an occupant of the furniture called Prince of Wales chair has insulted the institution's standards of ethics and academic standards of excellence bringing scholarship to a gutter level.
In the name of education, vidyadevi Sarasvati, I urge the Provost of Harvard U. to institute an inquiry and throw the chair and its occupant out and redeem the University's image in the community and demonstrate social responsibility. It is shameful that an academic indulges in general abuses without facing up to, reading critiques and respond if he can or acknowledge ignorant arrogance and crass academic incompetence. This academic is a blot on the academe and a danger to the present and future generations of students (exemplified by the intemperate and abusive response to Review 1 of Talageri's work so diligently, painstakingly put together with remarkable integrity in search of truth.
I suppose this is the hallmark of all seekers of knowledge, including Harvard University and standing the test of contributions made to the enlightenment of young students in their earnest quest for satyam and enhancing their full potential to make contributions to abhyudayam and dharma.
Annex 1 Ripping apart Witzel's work of dubious 'scholarship'
NB: All page references are to Talageri's book (2008).
Chapter 1G (pages 49-50)
"There has been a strange failure, on the part of the scholars examining the evidence, to reach the unavoidable conclusions we have reached in this chapter. The reason for this is of course the fact that they have always viewed the data through the blinker of the AIT. But the failure runs deeper: there has been a tendency to manufacture evidence and indulge in fraudulent scholarship in order to provide substance to the theories which run contrary to the data.
"The level of fraudulent and make-believe scholarship which dominates the Aryan debate today can be gauged from the following: Michael Witzel, throughout his various writings, from WITZEL, 1995b:334-335 to WITZEL, 2005:344, keeps insisting that Vasistha is an 'Iranian' or an 'immigrant from Iran', even a 'self-proclaimed' Iranian immigrant. In WITZEL 2005: 335, he even refers to 'the origins of the Bharatas and Vasistha in eastern Iran.' â¦By what statistical logic does Witzel decide that Vasistha, of Book 7, 'avoids' the use of absolutives, presumably in sharp contrast to all the other composers making lavish use of absolutives in their compositions? As we can see, there six occurrences of absolutives in Book 7, compared to, for example, only three in Book 6, and five each in Books 4 and 5."
Chapter 1G (pages 51-2)
"The way in which Witzel arrives at his conclusions is in itself enough to show up his fraudulent scholarship. But what is significant, in the light of our analysis of the Avestan names in this chapter, is that while the Late Books 5,1 and 8-10 are literally overflowing with compound names of the Avestan type, such names are completely absent in Book 7, the Book of Vasistha (and also in the Early and Middle Books, 2-4, 6-7, which are the Books associated with the Bharatas. Bharatas are in fact referred to by this name only in the Family Books 2-7: the owrd Bharata in this sense does not occur even once in the non-family Books). In fact, the only Iranian names, of persons and tribes, in the Book of Vasistha, the 'self-proclaimed Iranian', are the names of the enemies of Vasistha and the Bharatas in the Battle of the Ten Kings: Kai, Kavasa, Prthus, Parsus, Pakthas, and Bhalanas."
Chapter 1G (Page 53)
"In other words, according to Witzel's account of the events, Vasistha ousted Visvamitra as the priest of Sudas; and, in revenge Visvamitra led a coalition of tribes in the Ten Kings' Battle against Sudas and Vasistha, and was 'completely' defeated. And, later, the descendants of Visvamitra composed a hymn III.53, in 'praise' and glorification of the Bharatas, in fond memory of the asvamedha organized to 'commemorate' and celebrate the 'triumphs' of Sudas and Vasistha and the defeat and humiliation of their own ancestor visvamitra!"
Chapter 3 (p.117-129)
"As a crusader in the holy cause of the AIT, who has collaborated closely with many of the eminent leftist historians in anti-OIT campaigns in the Indian media, Witzel contributes his bit to this campaignâ¦Witzel goes on to make the following juvenile comments: 'Incidentally, it is entirely unclear that the physical river Sarasvati is meant in some of these spurious hymns: in 6.49.7 the Sarasvati is a woman and in 50.12 a deity, not necessarily the river (Witzel 1984). (At 52.6, however, it is a river, and in 61.1.7 both a river and a deity â which can be located anywhere from the Arachosian Sarasvati to the Night time sky, with no clear localization' (WITZEL 2000b:7). These are clearly not the words of a scholar making serious statements on an academic subject: that the Sarasvati of VI.49.7 'is a woman' is ludicrous, to say the least! And if, in any reference, Sarasvati is the name of a deity or a woman, even an amateur student of the subject could tell Witzel that the circumstance presupposes the existence of a river named Sarasvati, since the word Sarasvati is clearly originally the name of a river: it means 'the one with many ponds' (WITZEL 1995a:105)â¦
"WITZEL.1995b:335, fn82). Here, he (Witzel) not only identifies the Sarasvati of the RIgveda with the Sarasvati of Kurukshetra which dried up progressively after 1500 BCE, but notes that it 'flows from the mountains to the sea' (a description now often sought to be transferred to the Harahvaiti of Afghanistan, with the Hamun-i-Hilmand being the 'sea' described in the verse), and accepts that it shows that the battle of ten kings took place prior to 1500 BCE. And nowhere, in that article or in his charts on the geographical data in the Rigveda, does Witzel talk about women and non-riverine deities, or about Arachosia or the Night time sky, in reference to the word Sarasvati in these Early Booksâ¦(WITZEL. 2000a: 6). Note what Witzel is writing shortly before reading TALAGERI 200: he repeatedly refers not only to Book 6 in general, not only to hymn VI.45 in general, but specifically to the verse in that hymn which refers to the Ganga, as pertaining to the 'early Rigvedic period' and as constituting part of the geographical data of 'the oldest books' and 'the oldest hymns', and he even takes up issue with other western scholars who think otherwise!"
Chapter 5 (p.168-175)
"WITZEL's FRAUDULENT ARGUMENTS. In a recent paper (WITZEL, 2005), Witzel argues, in some detail, a point frequently made by him earlier: that the Indo-Aryan elements in Mitanni indicate a pre-Rigvedic language, with linguistic features which necessarily rule out any idea that the Mitanni coluld have emigrated from India â that the Mitanni were in fact an offshoot of the pre-Rigvedic Indo-Aryans as yet on their way towards Indiaâ¦And all three points (of Witzel's arguments) are misleading or fraudulent: 1. The argument about 'retroflexation' is clearly fraudulent, since it is clearly impossible to know whether the Mitanni IA language had cerebral (retroflex) sounds or not. But, in either case, whether they had them or not, it constitutes no objection to their emigration from Rigvedic Indiaâ¦2. Witzel's second argument, about the absence of 'typical South Asian loan words' and 'local Indian words' in the Mitanni IA language is in the same fraudulent vein. The only Mitanni IA words in the record are the names of a handful of Vedic Gods, some numerals, some words connected with horses (their colours, chariots, racing, etc.), a handful of other words (e.g. mani), and, as Witzel aptly puts it, 'a large array of personal names adopted by the ruling class'â¦The limited available Mitanni IA wordlist can certainly be analysed, but how on earth can anyone presume to make categorical declarations about which words were absent in the Mitanni IA language?...3. Witzel's third argument is that the Mitanni words seem to preserve certain sounds which had been transformed into other sounds already in the RV language: the RV has edh, e and h where the reconstructed pre-RV forms (also in Iranian) were azd, ai and jh respectively, while the Mitanni IA words seem to preserve the original sounds. This argument is not necessarily fraudulent in its essence, but it is nevertheless as baseless and misleading as the othersâ¦Witzel, of course, usually refers to phonetic changes in 'minor details such as the pronunciation of svar instead of suvar, etc.', but (as in Deshpande, above) changes from azd to edh or ai/au to e/o could very logically have been among the changes affected in the phonetic redactions."
Chapter 6 (290-307) â 7G
"APPENDIX: WITZEL'S LINGUISTIC ARGUMENTS AGAINST THE OITâ¦we will examine the article presented by Michael Witzel (WITZEL 2005) in a volume edited by Edwin Bryant and Laurie Patton, published in 2005, which claims to present the linguistic case against the OITâ¦Witzel begins his linguistic arguments with an inadvertent admission that the AIT linguistic case is based on argumentative points rather than concrete evidenceâ¦Ironically, the case presented in Section 1 of this book (which I challenge Witzel to refute), for the Out-of-India scenario, is actually based on a combination of the Mitanni 'inscriptions' and the evidence of the Rigveda and Avesta, of which the material in the Rigveda has also frequently been referred to by Witzel as being 'equivalent to inscriptions' (see section 8C in the next chapter)⦠In sum, all of Witzel's linguistic arguments are basically directed against three hypotheses which are treated as the core of the OIT case, but which form no part whatsoever of the case presented by us: (1) the 'Sanskrit-origin' hypothesisâ¦(2) the 'sequential movement of different groups' Out-of-India hypothesis (postulated by no-one, so far as I know) argued against by Hock (HOCK 1999a)â¦and (3) 'Misra's new dating of the RV at 5000 BCE' (WITZEL 2005: 358), from which Witzel decides: 'The autochthonous theory would have the RV at c. 5000 BCE or before the start of the Indus civilization at 2600 BCE', and 'according to the autochthonous theory, the Iranians had migrated westwards out of India well before the RV (2600-5000 BCE)' (WITZEL 2005: 369). Therefore, to sum up, there is no linguistic case at all, worth the name against the OIT case presented by us in our earlier books, and presented again with much more detail in this present book, especially in this chapter. The Indian homeland case presented by us answers all the linguistic requirements perfectly, while the AIT completely fails to answer any of them."
Chapter 8 (p.347-354)
"â¦the correctness of our classification (in TALAGERI 2000) of the Books of the Rigveda into Early, Middle and Late, and the fact that this is the 'right Rigveda', is established and proved by the way in which it 'predicted' the pattern of distribution of the Avestan names and name-elements (and other important words like ara, 'spokes') years before that distribution was demonstrated in this present book. A more fitting reply to Witzel's criticism could not have been foundâ¦As Witzel tells us elsewhere, 'we need to take the texts seriously, at their own word. A paradigm shift is necessaryâ¦' (WITZEL 2000b:332). Unfortunately, instead of taking the texts seriously at their own word, writers like Witzel have spent umpteen years and plenty of energy in producing voluminous piles of pure and incomprehensible nonsense based only on wild flights of their imagination, full of masses of chaotic details, wild speculations, mutually contradictory interpretations and conclusions, and ludicrous fairy tales, all of it leading nowhere."
Annex 2 Book review: S.G. Talageri, 2008, The Rigveda and the Avesta ââ¬" the final evidence, Delhi, Aditya Prakashan interspersed with flippant, fraudulent comments by Witzel<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Any member suggestions for donation to CAPEEM? Does anybody know the lowest reasonable amount that they accept?
SwamyG: They'll accept any amount from what I know. If you need more info check their website for queries and if you don't hear from them soon enough, let me know and I'll see if I can call a few people.
Since it's year-end, I'd suggest those wanting to make donations for tax purposes, CAPEEM is your best bet. Excellent track record fighting for a noble cause on behalf of our children.
Viren: Thanks. Last week I sent in my donation to Ekal Vidyalaya, after donating my local Hindu temple, I was looking for something in USA (year end tax purposes). I will send something this weekend.
12-12-2008, 09:24 PM
(This post was last modified: 12-12-2008, 09:25 PM by Bodhi.)
<!--emo&:angry:--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/mad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='mad.gif' /><!--endemo--> Expansion of Assembly line to manufacture Indian psec/lefty clones in the Harvard manufacturing plant which was already running at 200% utilization load.
<b>India gifts $4.5m to Harvard varsityâ</b>
PNS | Washington
India has gifted US $ 4.5 million to Harvard University to establish a fund to provide fellowships to deserving students from India for pursuing studies at the famed Ivy League institutionâs Graduate School of Arts and Sciences.
Indian Ambassador Ronen Sen and Harvard President Drew Gilpin Faust signed the agreement to institute the fund at a ceremony on Wednesday in the presence of Amartya Sen, the Nobel laureate and Lamont professor at Harvard, on his 75th birthday.
The programme is set to be designated as the Amartya Sen Fellowship Fund and the recipients called Amartya Sen Fellows.
Ambassador Sen thanked and expressed confidence that the fund will deepen Harvardâs bonds with India, expand its impressive scholarship on India and open new opportunities for gifted Indian scholars. Faust said Sen symbolises Harvardâs outstanding academic standards and a valued link between India and the University.
Said Sen: âI am delighted that the gift will help bright Indian students to come to Harvard. The students receiving the India Fellowships will have the opportunity of studying at what is perhaps the best university in the world.â
http://www.dailypioneer.com/142931/India-g...rd-varsity.html
SwamyG: Check this release from CAPEEM:
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Dear Friend,
As we approach the end of the year, CAPEEM would like to appeal to your generosity and seek funds for the next phase of its lawsuit.
On December 12, the Expert Discovery phase came to an end in our lawsuit against the officials of the California Department of Education (CDE) and members of the State Board of Education (SBE).
During this phase that began in September this year, both CAPEEM and the Defendants presented expert statements. Prof. Joe Barnhart, an authority on Christianity, and Prof. Nathan Katz, an expert in religious studies, provided statements on behalf of CAPEEM. The Defendants provided statements from Luis Gonzalez-Reimann and Dr. Herbert Weissman who is a psychologist. Prof. Shiva Bajpai whose Historical Atlas of South Asia is the standard reference book on the history of the Indian subcontinent and Dr. Marlene Winell who is the author of Leaving the Fold submitted rebuttals to Gonzalez-Reimann and Dr. Weissman respectively.
While Prof. Barnhart's statement questioned the historicity of several biblical claims made in the textbook, Prof. Katz's report focused on castes among people in India who were not Hindus. Although Gonzalez-Reimann was the Defendants' expert, his report agreed with CAPEEM's claims on some points and he pointed out that the usage of the word 'Christ' in history books would amount to religious indoctrination. It must be noted that Romila Thapar, one of the opponents of our efforts to remove biblical indoctrination from textbooks, uses the word 'Christ' instead of the name Jesus in her book, and Gonzalez-Riemann's report can be seen as an attack on Romila Thapar's belief in the historicity of Jesus. Gonzalez-Reimann has also been used as an expert on DNA analysis, archaeology, Christian indoctrination and other topics despite having no qualification in these fields. He has challenged the findings of scientists published in leading journals in the field of genetics. Gonzalez-Reimann's description of Hinduism in his report also shows that his understanding of the topic is superficial.
During the Expert Discovery phase, Defendants filed two motions against us and took the deposition of Prof. Bajpai causing tremendous strain to our resources. At this point, we have completed most of the work related to technical issues, and the next few weeks should see summary judgment motions being filed by both sides. After the ruling on these motions, the case will go to trial.
The intensity of the process has drained us of our resources and we urgently require money to sustain our efforts in the coming weeks. While it is almost certain that the Defendants will file a motion for summary judgment, our decision to file such a pre-trial motion will depend on our ability to quickly raise sufficient money for the motion.
We hope that you will consider making a donation to CAPEEM so that we can not only fight off the motion that the Defendants are certain to file, but also have the resources to file our own summary judgment motion.
You can donate to CAPEEM by writing a check in favor of CAPEEM and mailing it to
CAPEEM
PO Box 280442
Northridge, CA 91328
You can also donate online by going to http://www.capeem.org and clicking on the link to donate. CAPEEM is a 501©(3) tax exempt organization with tax ID 56-2565521.
Thank you,
Arvind Kumar
Director, California Parents for the Equalization of Educational Materials
arvind @ capeem dot org
CAPEEM's is a 501©(3) tax exempt organization with tax ID 56-2565521. If you do not wish to receive updates from CAPEEM, please reply to this email with the word 'unsubscribe' in the subject line.
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
01-10-2009, 03:46 AM
(This post was last modified: 01-10-2009, 03:49 AM by Husky.)
http://rajeev2004.blogspot.com/2009/01/rom...-dr-gautam.html
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Friday, January 09, 2009
<b>Romila Thapar's Kluge Prize - By Dr. Gautam Sen</b>
jan 9th, 2009
charlatan gets reward from missionaries. figures.
she is such a flat-earth type. precise analog of the christist godman who condemned giordano bruno to burning at the stake, and galileo galieli to imprisonment because their discoveries did not fit into the dogma and vested interests of the church.
---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: <info@>
Date: Fri, Jan 9, 2009 at 3:51 AM
Subject: Romila Thapar's Kluge Prize - By Dr. Gautam Sen
To:
<b>
Romila Thapar's Kluge Prize â By Dr. Gautam Sen</b>
Romila Thapar has been awarded the Kluge Prize for Lifetime Achievement in the Study of Humanity for ostensibly creating <b>"a new and more pluralistic view of Indian civilization</b>, which had seemed more unitary and unchanging, by scrutinizing its evolution over two millennia and searching out its historical consciousness". Thapar's US Congressional acclamation seeks to validate a blatantly provocative, uni-dimensional and ideologically extreme view of India's past, espoused mainly by its Stalinist fifth column, assorted Islamist Jihadis and militant Christian evangelists. The Kluge Prize selection committee might have imposed a simple test on Thapar by requiring her to present examples of two positive statements that she has composed on the Hindu past in her entire career. Instead what the decision of the Kluge committee suggests is racial arrogance, contempt for Hindu sensibilities and the malign influence of a powerful Bostonian non-Hindu Indian, infamous for campaigns belittling Hindu suffering. The award resoundingly reaffirms a deep American animus against Hindu India that has been a constant feature of US foreign policy towards it since independence. It was this vicious hatred and a half-baked strategic calculus that prompted US support for the perpetration of Pakistan's genocide in East Pakistan in 1971.
<b>Most mainstream Hindus find Romila Thapar's interpretation of ancient Indian history grossly disingenuous and thoroughly objectionable. Indeed a large number of Hindus regard her as a deeply mendacious enemy of Hindus.</b> She and her genocidal Stalinist associates studiously and maliciously ignore the immense suffering of Hindus as a result of successive Islamic invasions and the brutal rule of violent iconoclasts. It represents an example of holocaust denial that has been sedulously promoted by British imperial deceit and US Cold War aims.
... deleted
Dr. Gautam Sen
12th December 2008.
(Taught for more than two decades and at the London School of Economics and now writes on international political economy)
http://www.vigilonline.com/index.php?optio...d=1037&Itemid=1
It is no surprise to see that Romila Thaper recieved a Kluge prize for her work which undermines Hindu Civilization. <b>The library of Congress librarian, James H. Billington has impeccable evangelical credentials</b> and he had the final say in choosing the awardee. Billington is on the Board of the Center for Theological Inquiry (Christian Theology) and was long time advisor for Theology Today. Instead of getting awed by these awards these awardees should be looked at as neo colonial sepoys,<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->And a comment on the above (at the same link):
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Here is some information on James Billington, Librarian of Congress. <b>One of his daughters is a historian for churches and missions.</b> Before I provide information on that, some information on <b>one of his sons. James H. Billington Jr., is a "Reverend" type (children beware!) and below are some links about his church connection.
He was kicked out a church too.</b> Nobody know if this was due to child abuse. In fact, I have not seen any proof that has been provided to prove that it was not due to child abuse. No one outside the church knows the truth.
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn41..._n15818939/pg_1
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html...752C1A96F958260
http://www.kendallharmon.net/t19/index.p...icle/5542/
Coming to the librarian's <b>daughter, Susan Billington Harper, has written a hagiography about a bishop in India.</b>
In The Shadow of the Mahatma: Bishop V. S. Azariah and the Travails of Christianity in British India.
http://www.martynmission.cam.ac.uk/BIAMS...tm#reviews
http://www.articlearchives.com/humanities-...e/335388-1.html<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Same old story: christos award their own footsoldiers (rather like how the All India Christian Council which hosts the Gandhi award gave the prize to World Vision http://hamsa.org/world.vision.htm).
Harvard professor Palepu may have to quit DRL board
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->MUMBAI: Harvard Professor Krishna G Palepu, the former non-executive director of Satyam Computer Services, may have to step down from yet
Satyam office
Following Indiaâs biggest accounting scandal, Dr Reddyâs Laboratories has informally asked Mr Palepu to resign from its board where he is an independent director.
A source in Dr Reddyâs Lab told ET that the companyâs senior management has sent feelers to Mr Palepu to quit.
The companyâs board is meeting on January 20 to consider the December quarter results. Mr Palepuâs role is expected to be discussed at the meeting. <b>Mr Palepu was a non-executive director on Satyamâs board, which cleared the books cooked under B Ramalinga Rajuâs leadership.</b> âWe have not heard from Mr Palepu so far,â a source at Dr Reddyâs said. <!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Incidentally, Mr Palepu was also on the board of Global Trust Bank (GTB) which collapsed in 2002 following an accounting scam. <!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Remember the genius who lost 70%+ of his proposed blocks to edits in CA went on to claim 'victory'? Prof Palepu probably was keeping up with Witzel's or Harvard tradition to not rely on those silly things like Maths or Ethics.
[url="http://www.medhajournal.com/geopolitics-guru/1042-harvard-and-the-indian-billionaires.html"]Harvard and the Indian Billionaires [/url]
- Rajiv Malhotra
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