See people sprout all kind of nonsense such as "Brahmanas should go back to being vaidika" and that others will follow, none of this is going to happen today, sitting abroad and talking about Brahmin IQ being equal to Nordics is not really helpful, where is the incentive to becoming a vaidika, the one's who still cling to it are in utter poverty and will go extinct as G.Sub says, basically Tambram's are a doomed community, they are migrating out of the state and soon will be extinct due to lower birth rates. Many of the upper castes are to be found in the commie parties (heck, even look at the so called Marxist historians, they are almost all upper caste), many of the Hindu leaders nowadays (both spiritual as well as political) come from the lower castes such as Swami Ramdev, Amma, Modi (MBC).
The caste system in short is a mini-evolutionary lab
[/quote]
By this logic , 50 years ago if a Shudra was born of 100-120+ IQ, such a talent would have been waste, because due to caste systems rigidity he couldn't have taken up a job that required intellect and he'd have died of utter poverty and hunger.
--
Correct
--
So, for the lower castes, someone with low IQ and amenable to menial tasks would have stood better chance of employment and hence longevity and reproductivity.
--
Correct
--
Over a generation such a situation will naturally result in a population of low IQ in the community (with exceptions of course).
--
Correct
--
---
I think you have not fully understood what I am saying
Initially, all castes started off with the same IQ
Each caste depending on its occupation faced different darwinian pressures
and slowly evolved in different directions with talents in different fields
In a caste of laborers, IQ would be of no use, the darwinian pressures would be
in the direction of more strength and stamina
As Ambedkar pointed out, the main weakness of the caste system was
in not having a channel for the talented among the backward castes to rise up
IQ in all castes have a bell curve which means each generation, some high IQ people are born among backward castes and some low IQ people are born in forward castes
The caste system has sort of functioned in a manner similar to dog breeding numerous select breeds out of mongrels
No one breed is superior to another, just different skills in different areas
----
Reservation or not, but prolonged and committed affirmative actions are required to pull up such population groups out of the sad situation.
---
I have supported a moderate amount of reservation, since it weeds out the
less IQ among the forward castes
-----
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[/quote]
[quote=mitradena,May 31 2006, 10:42 AM]
Brahamana IQ is equal to that of the Northern Europeans, i.e. it is the highest in the world.
---
This is absurd
Nordic IQ is about 105
Per my rough analysis, most forward castes in India are about 108 and certain castes with emphasis in literacy could easily be 115
---
Brahmanas are also plagued by the same problems faced by the Nordics, namely, low birth rate, over-educated females, males moving toward atheism and becoming anti-Hindu.
Brahmanas like other high IQ people are also more individualistic and lack team work. Races with lower IQ have better group cohesion.
--
Jews have more cohesion despite an IQ of about 110
Orthodox jews breed 6 kids
--
<!--QuoteBegin-Bharatvarsh+May 31 2006, 04:57 PM-->QUOTE(Bharatvarsh @ May 31 2006, 04:57 PM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->where is the incentive to becoming a vaidika, the one's who still cling to it are in utter poverty and will go extinct as G.Sub says, basically Tambram's are a doomed community, they are migrating out of the state and soon will be extinct due to lower birth rates.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
--
Correction
The Tambram community is being subjected to evolutionary pressures
The less talented will go extinct
The survivors will be higher IQ and will migrate, evolve into marwari type businessmen etc
So ironically what we will have is a community with IQ shifted up another 5 points,
causing more heartburn to the dravidianists
<!--QuoteBegin-G.Subramaniam+May 30 2006, 07:45 PM-->QUOTE(G.Subramaniam @ May 30 2006, 07:45 PM)<!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-rajesh_g+May 31 2006, 08:02 AM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(rajesh_g @ May 31 2006, 08:02 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->GS
I think the counter argument is as follows --> Lets assume that all brahmins have IQ 140 and above.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
---
I did not say that, I used the bell curve
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sorry I didnt mean to say you did. I was just trying to simplify my argument.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->-----
For a healthy economy show that having a person of IQ 120 doing a job with a job reqt of IQ 100 is bad.
IOW if brahmins of say 130 are replaced by an OBC of IQ 120 for a job with 120 reqt while the brahmin does a job with reqt of 100 then is it bad ?
---
What is happening is inefficient use of resources
Are parsis an asset - yes
Could India get along without the parsis - yes again
Would India be better with the parsis- yes
In Uganda, with an average IQ of 75, Idi Amin kicked out the 100 IQ Indians and
yes Uganda survived and now Uganda has invited them back
What is happening in tamil nadu and other parts of India is lack of vision
In Singapore, Lee Kuan Yew gives money to get high IQ women to breed more
In US, IQ tests for employment are banned,
In India, microsoft uses IQ tests for hiring staff
I cant find the quote, but per Bill Gates, all he cares about is hiring the smartest
staff
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Again what I am trying to say is that in an economy such as India there are not many jobs that require high IQ. We are not a completely knowledge based economy so we will have to show in some way that if a job requirement is of IQ-100 then a person with IQ-140 can still do a better job then IQ-120. The Tamilnadu situation says the foll
1. TN is not doing badly after 70% reservations.
2. This implies that even if diff castes have diff IQs it does really affect the economy a whole lot since the job reqts for most jobs dont require high IQs.
3. This might also imply that 70% reservations result in enough competition that given the current job market it results in enough competition that it doesnt really affect the economy.
Sad reads on the Tambrahm situation. As someone I know has said in the past, brahmanas were the glue that bound the aryavarta - if they dont remain bound themselves how are they going to bind Bharatvarsha ? Some kind of pan-india brahmin organisation needs to be built - some rudimentary form of coordination needs to be facilitated. Gone are the days where individuals with charisma can provide the leadership - its better if stronger processes are set in place - which can enable leaders to evolve..
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->1. TN is not doing badly after 70% reservations. <!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think they are not doing well. Compare with Punjab and Gujarat or even Himachal. TN is far behind in every aspect. Northern states despite regularly on external attack and prone to weather or terrorism or riots are far ahead. Level of poverty is very low. Percentage of upper caste is much higher.
As soon as one enters Punjab or Himachal, one can see prosperity everywhere. Even rural population is far ahead. This was always norm.
And reservation percentage is below 28%.
<!--QuoteBegin-G.Subramaniam+-->QUOTE(G.Subramaniam)<!--QuoteEBegin-->I think you have not fully understood what I am saying
Initially, all castes started off with the same IQ
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Agreed. No confusion. This is exactly what I understood from you earlier post.
<!--QuoteBegin-G.Subramaniam+-->QUOTE(G.Subramaniam)<!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-sroy+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(sroy)<!--QuoteEBegin-->
Reservation or not, but prolonged and committed affirmative actions are required to pull up such population groups out of the sad situation.
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I have supported a moderate amount of reservation, since it weeds out the
less IQ among the forward castes
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, some amount of reservation with strict monitoring for the really deserving cases.
But, GS Sir, your views are a rarity. Most people I've talked or interacted on cyberspace seemed to have rigid stands on the either end of the spectrum i.e. either anti or pro.
Well researched arguements like yours with backing data and numbers can be very easily be used to explore middle grounds.
<!--QuoteBegin-G.Subramaniam+May 31 2006, 07:43 AM-->QUOTE(G.Subramaniam @ May 31 2006, 07:43 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->
I read a recent article on the high IQ of jews
[right][snapback]51886[/snapback][/right]
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
aah, so i aint the only one <!--emo&  --><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif' /><!--endemo-->.
try reading about hungarian and german jews.
ut yes you are right in spotting the parallel - how adversity AND genetic diversity helps to produce a smarter next generation.
<!--QuoteBegin-G.Subramaniam+May 31 2006, 08:25 AM-->QUOTE(G.Subramaniam @ May 31 2006, 08:25 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->
Many of the dravidianists have a taste for brahmin women
Periyar asked his followers to rape brahmin women
Most of the DMK leadership have brahmin concubines
Some of the poorer brahmin women are marrying OBC-Dwija men[/color]
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a question -
why is dravidianism dericted against the brahims ??? why not against non-dravidians??
(i mean any "ims" is directed against its antithesis - south africa's apartheid regime by whites was directed against NON-whites)
arnt tamil brahmins like say vishy anand and radha krishnan as much dravidian as the non brahimns of tamil nadu??
or does the DMK believe that brahimns of tamil nadu are not dravidian and only the non brahins are ??
<!--QuoteBegin-G.Subramaniam+May 31 2006, 09:05 AM-->QUOTE(G.Subramaniam @ May 31 2006, 09:05 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->
In north India, brahmins handed out Dwija status to many castes
whereas this was not done in south India
-----
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why was it so??
after all isnt hinduism the same everywhere??
<!--QuoteBegin-mitradena+May 31 2006, 10:42 AM-->QUOTE(mitradena @ May 31 2006, 10:42 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->and leads to the destruction of the Aryan race as has been clearly indicated in the first chapter of Bhagavad Gita and also in the Manu Smrti.
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lmao!!
the number of times we come across contradictory statements in this forum !!
i read here that
1) there is no such thing as an aryan race (the post started dramatically with "repeat after me..")
2) then again, all indians are aryans ( some are dravidian aryans, some aryan aryans)
3)and now, allusion to the Gita reffering to the aryan race !! could the gita be wrong????
i dont think it was..... the upshot is that the caste system was invented to preserve the aryan race.... from whom??? the non aryans of india i presume??? like the munda and the santals????
<!--QuoteBegin-G.Subramaniam+May 31 2006, 06:02 PM-->QUOTE(G.Subramaniam @ May 31 2006, 06:02 PM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->[color=blue]I think you have not fully understood what I am saying
Initially, all castes started off with the same IQ
Each caste depending on its occupation faced different darwinian pressures
and slowly evolved in different directions with talents in different fields
In a caste of laborers, IQ would be of no use, the darwinian pressures would be
in the direction of more strength and stamina
As Ambedkar pointed out, the main weakness of the caste system was
in not having a channel for the talented among the backward castes to rise up
IQ in all castes have a bell curve which means each generation, some high IQ people are born among backward castes and some low IQ people are born in forward castes
----
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spot on !!!
thats the sort of analysis i like !!
btw, the people who exemply your theory best are the jews themselves - only the smartest of the jews managed to survive. plus the jews have married heavily with europeans and then intermarried amongst other jews creating lots of permutations and combinations (child of jew-slav parents marries child of jew-nordic parents etc) creating a vast gene pool. that also helps in iq. notice all the Einsteins and Von Neumann's and other extra-talented sorts amongst jews come from lands which had an innate high iq population (like germany). abbysinian (somalian) and yemeni jews who married into blacks and arabs (respectively) have produced no feynmann or kasparov (a jew with "Rus" blood).
G.Subramaniam,May 31 2006, 06:05 PM Wrote:[quote=mitradena,May 31 2006, 10:42 AM]
Jews have more cohesion despite an IQ of about 110
Orthodox jews breed 6 kids
--
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jews have cohesion cos without that they would be no more. they are cohesive cos they are constantly faced with extinction.
maybe we would be too, if we lived under similar peril.
and orthodox jews believe that contraception is bad and is tabo from their religion (as are so many other things taboo from orthodox judaism)
<!--QuoteBegin-rajesh_g+May 31 2006, 08:43 PM-->QUOTE(rajesh_g @ May 31 2006, 08:43 PM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->
1. TN is not doing badly after 70% reservations.
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
thats cos they dont have 70% reservations for 25% of the society.
they have 70% reservations for 75% of society, what with all the non brahmins of tamil nadu being dubbed/declared OBC.
<!--QuoteBegin-rajesh_g+May 31 2006, 08:02 AM-->QUOTE(rajesh_g @ May 31 2006, 08:02 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->GS
I think the counter argument is as follows --> Lets assume that all brahmins have IQ 140 and above. For a healthy economy show that having a person of IQ 120 doing a job with a job reqt of IQ 100 is bad.
IOW if brahmins of say 130 are replaced by an OBC of IQ 120 for a job with 120 reqt while the brahmin does a job with reqt of 100 then is it bad ?
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Bill Gates for example focuses on hiring high IQ people
not adequate IQ people
A higher IQ employee gives the company better performance instead of barely adequate performance
Each job requires different types of skills and you need to hire the best in each category to survive the competition
If I ran a company in India,
for finance manager, I would look among marwaris
for security guards, I would look among gurkhas,
for factory workers, I would look among skilled artisan OBC castes
for design engineers I would look among brahmins
for janitors, I would go to the nearest Dalit colony
Note, while in IQ terms brahmins may rank higher, their skill sets are not
appropriate in many types of jobs
<!--QuoteBegin-ben_ami+May 31 2006, 11:35 PM-->QUOTE(ben_ami @ May 31 2006, 11:35 PM)<!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-G.Subramaniam+May 31 2006, 08:25 AM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(G.Subramaniam @ May 31 2006, 08:25 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->
<!--emo&  --><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
a question -
why is dravidianism dericted against the brahims ??? why not against non-dravidians??
(i mean any "ims" is directed against its antithesis - south africa's apartheid regime by whites was directed against NON-whites)
arnt tamil brahmins like say vishy anand and radha krishnan as much dravidian as the non brahimns of tamil nadu??
or does the DMK believe that brahimns of tamil nadu are not dravidian and only the non brahins are ??
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Historically in tamil nadu, power went from the tamil kingdoms to muslims in 1330 and rescued by Telegu speaking Vijayanagar in 1370, to british rule in 1750
Per the false history of the dravidianists, the tamils lost power to the invading aryan brahmins
Brahmins are mentioned in the earliest tamil epics and have a long history in tamil nadu
Per the dravidianists. muslims are dravidians and eligigle for OBC reservations
Per the dravidianists, xtians are dravidians and eligible for OBC reservations
Per the dravidians, the Saurashtrian community ( a recently immigrant weaver caste from Gujurat who claimed to be brahmins ) are OBC and eligible for reservations
Per the dravidianists, kannada speaking migrant EVR, telegu speaking migrant Karunanidhi, malayalam speaking migrant MGR are all dravidian natives
Whereas the tamil brahmin with a 2000 year history in the land is the aryan invader
Everyone except the brahmin is a dravidian
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<!--QuoteBegin-ben_ami+May 31 2006, 11:37 PM-->QUOTE(ben_ami @ May 31 2006, 11:37 PM)<!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-G.Subramaniam+May 31 2006, 09:05 AM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(G.Subramaniam @ May 31 2006, 09:05 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->
In north India, brahmins handed out Dwija status to many castes
whereas this was not done in south India
-----
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why was it so??
after all isnt hinduism the same everywhere??
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In Assam, the Ahoms are recent invaders from Thailand , and the brahmins quickly gave them dwija status and assimilated them
The white huns who invaded india in 500AD, were assimilated and given dwija status by the brahmins within 150 years
I guess it was sheer stupidity of the tamil brahmin in not creating a sizable 25% dwija class among the tamil castes
<!--QuoteBegin-ben_ami+Jun 1 2006, 12:00 AM-->QUOTE(ben_ami @ Jun 1 2006, 12:00 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-rajesh_g+May 31 2006, 08:43 PM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(rajesh_g @ May 31 2006, 08:43 PM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->
1. TN is not doing badly after 70% reservations.
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
thats cos they dont have 70% reservations for 25% of the society.
they have 70% reservations for 75% of society, what with all the non brahmins of tamil nadu being dubbed/declared OBC.
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Tamil nadu is run by Chettiars, Mudaliars, Pillais who would correspond to bania-kayasth type caste in north India and these castes get about 50% of the jobs
Yadav type castes are limited to 20% in the MBC category
Consider what would happen in north India if the kayasths got themselves classified as OBC and grabbed most of the mandal jobs and ran the administration, there would be less opportunity for yadav type castes to screw things up
As I previously wrote,
based on 1975 data, my average IQ with bell curve estimate in tamil nadu was
Brahmin = 115
OBC-Dwija = 105
MBC = 95
SC/ST = 85
and numerous gerrymandering schemes were put in place to limit brahmins in professional colleges, because brahmins kept severely outscoring non-brahmins
thanks to the relentless anti-brahmin pressure, most of the higher IQ brahmins ( most migrants are higher IQ ) have migrated to Bangalore, Mumbai, USA , with the net result that mostly only below average brahmins are left behind in tamil nadu and the remnant brahmin in tamil nadu, probably has an IQ of 105, same as OBC-Dwijas
In recent professional exams brahmins scored same as others
the 2.3% brahmins got 2.3% of the medical seats
read article from Hindu
Going `forward' in medical admissions?
In Tamil Nadu, BCs get 30 per cent reservation in educational institutions, MBCs 20; SCs 18; and Scheduled Tribes (ST) one per cent. The 1,224 medical seats then get divided into 354 for BCs; 247 for MBCs; 226 for SCs; and 13 for STs. The rest of the 384 seats are allowed as open competition, where everyone competes, regardless of community.
The final tally (original list with 69 per cent reservation) released by the Directorate of Medical Education however shows that only 28 students from the `non-reserved' or Forward Caste (FC) have got into government medical colleges, representing about 2.3 per cent. In fact, in the top 400 rank holders only 31 are from FC. In the top 100 rank holders only six are from the FC, 79 from BC and 13 from MBC.
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