<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin--><b>Zion to Sion </b>
The Pioneer Edit Desk
From Israel, lessons for Mumbai ---- Facetious as it may sound, weeks like this one are ripe for bemoaning the limits to outsourcing, and the fact that the mandate for India's internal security cannot be contracted out to the iron-willed consciousness of Israel. In the past two days, Israel has bombed Beirut airport and begun a naval blockade of Lebanon, aimed at disrupting the supply lines of Hizbullah terrorists and weaponry. It has refused to negotiate following Hizbullah's kidnapping of two Israeli soldiers, recognised that outrage for what it is - an act of war - and gone on the offensive, determined to uproot the sources of terror. In the past fortnight, Israel has also moved its soldiers into Gaza, after fresh attacks from there - even as the rogue "Government of Palestine" looked on encouragingly - and the abduction of a military officer. It is impossible not to contrast these tough and unambiguous measures with the pusillanimity and squeamishness of the UPA Government after the Mumbai train blasts or, indeed, the relentless cycle of terrorist assaults that began almost exactly one year ago, in Ayodhya. <span style='font-size:14pt;line-height:100%'>There is denial about home-grown terrorism - UPA Ministers never tire of claiming that no Indian is a member of Al Qaeda, ignoring the growing number of non-Kashmiri recruits in the Lashkar-e-Tayyeba, with cells uncovered in, at least, Andhra Pradesh, Uttar Pradesh and Maharashtra. There is praise for Mumbai's "resilience" and "spirit", as if these were substitutes for concrete Government action.</span> No country suffers the frequency of bomb attacks that Israel does - in markets, discotheques, restaurants, everyday places. Ordinary Israelis get up, dust themselves and go on with life. They display the remarkable human ability to bounce back that, on the morning of July 12, brought Mumbai back on track. Yet the Government in Tel Aviv doesn't take solace from this, wring its hands, sit down and do nothing. It salutes its brave citizens by destroying - or pre-empting - those who mean them harm.
It is nobody's suggestion that the UPA Government should immediately begin bombing terrorist camps across the Line of Control - though that eventuality is a compelling and perhaps inevitable option - but what of action against indigenous bastions of terrorists and their logistical support structures, against institutions and groups known to be hand in glove with Laskhar, Jaish-e-Mohammed and their sister organisations, a crackdown on jihadi fifth columnists within India? This is a national imperative, however much "secular" UPA allies may protest. The post-bombing arrest of 200 people in Mumbai is a case in point. <b>It is unlikely these people were actually involved in the suburban train strikes. They are probably SIMI/Islamist sympathisers whose names have long appeared in police records but who have never been questioned, let alone taken into custody, as the Congress and its allies went looking for their votes and repealed POTA</b>. If hard steps had been taken a year ago, Mumbai's trains would probably still have been safe. The terrorists would have been warned: Governments change, but this is a country you don't mess with. In the summer of 2006 those messages are being delivered loud and clear - as it happens, by Israel. Meanwhile, Mr Manmohan Singh can go back to his fiddle.
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If Pakistan is involved why no recalling of Diplomats or no special treatment to Paki diplomat in Delhi e.g mugging etc.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->If we did have a non-govt counter-terrorism organisation, say composed of former intel officers and army-personnel with expertise in this field, then they could track down terrorists and just quietly flush them out (our disinterested govt never will). That way the media will never know. Obviously the media doesn't know where the terrorists were hiding and will not now know they went missing. And the Indian population won't miss them either and Shabana Azmi can't admit her terrorist friends just went missing.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Now this is one of the most unpractical things I have heard. Recruiting former intel officers and army-personnel, that too under the noses of state and central governments? Who will recruit them? How would they operate nationally, as well as within the region? And targeting only the terrorists, not the community whose interests they are forwarding. Even if they do get the terrorists, how would they secure the Hindu nation at large? Would they solve the problem of a demographic nightmare, the imposition of Sharia, the adherence to Islam, and therefore the sharing of terrorist goals by over 100 million people? How would this tit for tat attacks weaken the Muslim camp strategically?
As I have stated before, you seem to be exagerating the threat of intervention. Ofcourse during mass riots the media won't be on our side, but that is quite different from the situation in Serbia where the government, its army, and paramilitaries led by people like Arakan commited violence instead of ordinary serbs. The government in India's case would be paralysed because they won't have enough resources to stop the violence, not because they have no intention of stoping the riots. It would be a very hard case to make that government and armed forces of India need to be hit in such a situation.
And I am aware of the claims of Newyorker, and do not believe them. It is the same Newyorker that said that abuse at Abu Garaib was some kind of intelligence operation, or that US was ready to attack Iran in 2005. Newyorker and Seymour Hersh are 50-50 hit, and I wouln't base my entire conclusion on their articles. During the airlift of Konduz, the Pakistani officers did get to go home, and maybe some Taliban too, but to claim that it was America diverting Taliban in Kashmir is not credible.
Husky, you seem to be exhibiting a paralyzing fear of Western intervention, but as I have said before, intervention in India (which in not in European backyard) is not easy in terms of capability or will. The West plays a lot of covert games, but any overt threat is not believable.
<!--QuoteBegin-Mudy+Jul 14 2006, 01:40 AM-->QUOTE(Mudy @ Jul 14 2006, 01:40 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->If Pakistan is involved why no recalling of Diplomats or no special treatment to Paki diplomat in Delhi e.g mugging etc.
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They should do this. but lookslike the political parties are not confident enough to take any strong steap. they must be made assure that people will back them up 100% for any serious steps for our defence. they are scared they might lose their jobs if they do something sevear.
<!--QuoteBegin-Reggie+Jul 13 2006, 10:55 AM-->QUOTE(Reggie @ Jul 13 2006, 10:55 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->Seriously, as I had asked several posts back, GOI's options are severaly limited. What exactly can the MMS administration do?
1)Any escalation initiated by the GOI against Pakistan, and the "Nuclear Flashpoint" will return - kiss the India - U.S. Civil Nuclear agreement goodbye!
2) The IA lacks the formidable power to annihilate or "teach Pakistan a lesson" quickly - two to three days (max a week).
3) The GOI will NOT cross the LOC (remember Kargil).
4) Other than making polite diplomatic protests, what exactly do you think GOI can do under such circumstances?
5) Fine - GOI points to LET and SIMI as the culprits. What next? Maybe, just maybe, bring back POTA for SIMI (Don't bet on it though!). For LET, really, what choice does the GOI have?
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For whatever it is worth? SIMI using rdx, timer in pencils on previous blasts (August 2005). What exactly did the GOI did then which would lead us to believe that THIS time it will be different?
http://www.ipcs.org/Aug_05_terrorismGeneral.pdf
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I think the government should issue strong statements. send representatives among people and have people rally behind the cause. people are fragmented and scared right now. manmohan and his people should engage with India population before making any move themselves. they must garner public support. generate patriotic fervour and than take strong actions.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->manmohan and his people should engage with India population <!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What???? You have very high expectation from spineless. Have you heard spineless speech? He can't engage his tongue properly, only he can engage is tail in front of queen.
Bad suggestion or expectation.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Seriously, as I had asked several posts back, GOI's options are severaly limited. What exactly can the MMS administration do?<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What you will do when your family member get killed barbarically by neighbor or distant relative who live in your house?
I hope your decision would not be based on, what my neighbor will think or I will not get goodies from a person who lives 2 blocks away, By the way Goodie which he will give me, I may use it only if I have peace. And the distant relative who is staying in same house who opted not to leave house when property was equally distributed, now he is molesting your immediate family member, killing them just to have more from your share.
Heck, I will teach my relative a long term lesson and give them option to leave my home or behave according to house rule. And I will teach my next door neighbor every crime he commits. Every response will be ten times harder.
Indian mentality is to opt for defeat. Till my family member is not a victim, who cares, we have to think of business or nuclear deal or what not.
If you don't have peace what you will do with gems in house. Punish Punish Punish.
This act was done by Indian Muslims. Foot soldiers are Indian Muslim. No cover-up for heinous act.
<!--QuoteBegin-rajesh_g+Jul 13 2006, 11:27 PM-->QUOTE(rajesh_g @ Jul 13 2006, 11:27 PM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->Absolutely right Chitraji. But thats the case for the entire nation ! We are all heartless and all we care about is money !! Its your brother who died - not mine - so I dont care. The stock market went up 316 pts - now thats more important. See ???
http://ia.rediff.com/news/2006/jul/12firda...?q=np&file=.htm
<!--QuoteBegin--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Chitra believes Mumbai has turned into a heartless city. "No one bothers about the dead. All they care about is money. In two days, people are back to work. The dead have been forgotten. On Tuesday, it was my brother. Next time, it will be someone else."<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->[right][snapback]53657[/snapback][/right]<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I totally disagree. neither indians, nor hindus are heartless. they just don't know they have a right to be angry. they just don't know how to vent their anger. <b>they are not sure being angry is the right thing to do </b> There is no one who can lead the people to guide them to do the right thing. There is no mass understanding of the 'right reaction'. every single indian would be deeply pained by these attacks. Their helplessness is forcing them to become numb. have you met some one who has seen his sister getting raped infront of his own eyes and not be able to do anything? how much did he have to kill himself everyday so that his sister, her child and his parents may live. don't you bad mouth these indians, every single one of us have died a little on that day.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->I think the government should issue strong statements. send representatives among people and have people rally behind the cause. people are fragmented and scared right now. manmohan and his people should engage with India population before making any move themselves. they must garner public support. generate patriotic fervour and than take strong actions.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
STATEMENTS: That the GOI will do? But what kind of statements? MMS has already issued statements applauding the Mumbaikars resilience and that India's keens are unbendable.
SEND REPRESENTATIVS..RALLY BEHIND CAUSE: What cause? That India is faced with the threat of terrorism; that India will not bend; that I am sending the reps to...for what?
PEOPLE BEING FRAGMENTED... ETC. ETC. What EXACT strong actions do you suggest GOI/MMS should take? Be specific!
As I have said before, India is badly boxed-in with no viable implementable action plan it can work with.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->As I have said before, India is badly boxed-in with no viable implementable action plan it can work with. <!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Why you think it was external not internal act?
Why law enforcement agency failed to arrest known terrorist including politicans and supporters within 24 hours?
Its vote bank policy which had killed over 200 Bombaites.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->As I have said before, India is badly boxed-in with no viable implementable action plan it can work with.
Why you think it was external not internal act?
Why law enforcement agency failed to arrest known terrorist including politicans and supporters?<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It IS an internal as well as an external act. My reference to GOI reintroducing POTA for SIMI and ? for LET (Pakistan) for external.
Law enforcement agency REPORT and act on the DIRECTIVES of the politicians and not the other way around. Terrorists in India have proven to have links with Indian politicians (Siwan, Bihar is an example).
I agree with the vote bank politics - and therein lies the answer. GOI/MMS will not take any meaningful action.
<!--QuoteBegin-Mudy+Jul 14 2006, 02:47 AM-->QUOTE(Mudy @ Jul 14 2006, 02:47 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Seriously, as I had asked several posts back, GOI's options are severaly limited. What exactly can the MMS administration do?<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What you will do when your family member get killed barbarically by neighbor or distant relative who live in your house?
I hope your decision would not be based on, what my neighbor will think or I will not get goodies from a person who lives 2 blocks away, By the way Goodie which he will give me, I may use it only if I have peace. And the distant relative who is staying in same house who opted not to leave house when property was equally distributed, now he is molesting your immediate family member, killing them just to have more from your share.
Heck, I will teach my relative a long term lesson and give them option to leave my home or behave according to house rule. And I will teach my next door neighbor every crime he commits. Every response will be ten times harder.
Indian mentality is to opt for defeat. Till my family member is not a victim, who cares, we have to think of business or nuclear deal or what not.
If you don't have peace what you will do with gems in house. Punish Punish Punish.
This act was done by Indian Muslims. Foot soldiers are Indian Muslim. No cover-up for heinous act.
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What would you do if you are anemic, your feet has polio, your both eyes have cataract, your hands are broken you are deaf and you have no friends, what would you do then? You cannot pick up a fight you are not confident you can win. We cannot afford to be dragged into fight we would end up at a loss even if we win. India must be made strong internally and externally enough that when we do get in to the ring the fight is quick and decisive. We must understand our strength and weakness we must understand their strength and weakness. The winner is not the one who deserves to win (cause he is right), but the winner is the one who is best prepared to fight.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->I agree with the vote bank politics - and therein lies the answer. GOI/MMS will not take any meaningful action. <!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Time had come to stop blaming Terrorsitan,
Time had come to fix our own house first.
Time had come to understand Pan-Islamic agenda.
Time had come to educate Indian citizen about danger from Jihadist and 6th column within India.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->What would you do if you are anemic, your feet has polio, your both eyes have cataract, your hands are broken you are deaf and you have no friends, what would you do then? You cannot pick up a fight you are not confident you can win. We cannot afford to be dragged into fight we would end up at a loss even if we win. India must be made strong internally and externally enough that when we do get in to the ring the fight is quick and decisive. We must understand our strength and weakness we must understand their strength and weakness. The winner is not the one who deserves to win (cause he is right), but the winner is the one who is best prepared to fight.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, if someone will try to assault me, he/she will see worse of me. I will fight till death. Atleast, it will give courage to the person standing next to me, who is thinking that my house is burning but should I fight or let my family members get killed by assaulter and fight for next day, when I had better clothes or 3 meals with extra vitamin, but even my half of the family is dead and rest are handicapped.
But hey, what about my assaulter, after assaulting and killing half of family, He is a big boss in our area now, now he is eating 10 meals a day and next time will have better weapons and more crowd.
Now, again I will wait when I will be stronger and by then rest of family will be dead.
Atleast, If I fight now, when both are weak, I will not let him get any stronger. He will think 10times to attack me, because he know I will react.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->I agree with the vote bank politics - and therein lies the answer. GOI/MMS will not take any meaningful action.
Time had come to stop blaming Terrorsitan,
Time had come to fix our own house first.
Time had come to understand Pan-Islamic agenda.
Time had come to educate Indian citizen about danger from Jihadist and 6th column within India.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It seems you are inclined to employ a bottoms-up approach - working within India first. I would suggest a Top-down approach. Fix Pakistan FIRST (and hard) and the subcontinental jehadi muslims will automatically see the noor.
Mudy, you and me have been here and B(A)RF a long long time to regurgitate these tired reprisal plans. Let's also remember it was the INDIAN people who elected CONGRESS two years ago (when the NDA govt. - apart from the GODHRA episode) was doing a spectacular job (relatively speaking!) with India.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->It seems you are inclined to employ a bottoms-up approach - working within India first. I would suggest a Top-down approach. Fix Pakistan FIRST (and hard) and the subcontinental jehadi muslims will automatically see the noor.
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My approach, do it same time. Start hitting both ends.
They are surviving supporting each other.
Ground reality is very scary, believe it. Not saying based on arm chair General approach.
We had more problems.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->INDIAN people who elected CONGRESS two years ago <!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
They became lucky because of 25 other partners. It was not a mandate for Congress. Bihar, TN and UP can do magic for sometime.
Man in burqa held at Mumbai airport -HT
Jay Shastri
Read this
http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/060712/india_markets.html?.v=16
Just good infosys earnings are enough. Make no mistake, hindus are apathetic, heartless and use big words like 'resilience' to hide their cowardice. We live in a democracy and the democratic 'leaders' dont see any need to cater to the fictitious 'hearts' of Indians that you refer to. They know --> all I have to give these buggers is a few good earnings numbers and they dont care. Just watch - bombayites will put up self-congratulatory postors in no time praising how they dont care about the blasts and how they started living the same lives they were living the day before. The excuse is "you cant let the terrorists win". Cant you see ? The terrorists HAVE WON. A resounding victory at that. India that big nation with big population cant do jack after we killed so many. All they will do is look for a man in burqa..
<img src='http://www.hindustantimes.com/wfsf/high/2006/07.14/images/high1743761.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image' />
Look at how heart-broken the lady is.
<!--QuoteBegin-Mudy+Jul 14 2006, 03:12 AM-->QUOTE(Mudy @ Jul 14 2006, 03:12 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->I agree with the vote bank politics - and therein lies the answer. GOI/MMS will not take any meaningful action. <!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Time had come to stop blaming Terrorsitan,
Time had come to fix our own house first.
Time had come to understand Pan-Islamic agenda.
Time had come to educate Indian citizen about danger from Jihadist and 6th column within India.
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I agree whole heartedly. lets findout how!
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