Social Reform Leaders OR Socially Engineered Products themselves?

[Guest]

<!--QuoteBegin-Bharatvarsh+Oct 24 2006, 11:49 PM-->QUOTE(Bharatvarsh @ Oct 24 2006, 11:49 PM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->ben ami looks like your enlightened British had dowry too not just the backward heathen Hindus.
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i never ever thought the british to be an enlightened people.

but still i would rate them over muslims anyday.

why are you trying to put words into my mouth?? "backward heathen hindus" was not a description i ever used, though i will meintain that at the time of the european arrival the version of hinduism practised in most of india was an islamic version, and nothing like vedic hinduism and was full of superstition, lots of do-s and don'ts, "sati", "bali dan' and "zhootha". indian society on the whole was in the doldrums and totally lacking intellectual output - the reason why the most prolific of all ancient civilizations produced nothing almost between 1000 a.d. to 1900 a.d.

[Guest]

<!--QuoteBegin-k.ram+Oct 25 2006, 06:32 AM-->QUOTE(k.ram @ Oct 25 2006, 06:32 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->ben_ami, any idea why ram mohan roy was <b>buried </b>in Bristol?
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no idea. probably cos he died in Bristol.

[acharya]

<!--QuoteBegin-ben_ami+Oct 24 2006, 04:34 PM-->QUOTE(ben_ami @ Oct 24 2006, 04:34 PM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->
when bengal was partitioned, indian independence was not on the horizon and the partition was done by lord Curzon with the express intention of weakenning bengal. when that ploy failed, they reluctantly shifted their capital to delhi.
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On hind sight there is a reason for the Bengal partition.<b>
Bengal Partition was to show to the Muslim League the British sincerity. The dialogue between the British and the Muslim league started from those years and the demand of the Muslim league was being negotiated.

Some of the demand of ML was recreation of the Mughal state which would include the RED FORT , Seat of power of Mughals such as Agra and Luckow. THis was a grand plan and British to show their sincerity to ML shifted the capital from Kolkotta to Delhi in 1911.


THe shifting of the capital took from 1911 to 1931 to complete which included creating the govt buildings, parliament and moving the govt papers to Delhi.

Only after 1931 that Allama Iqbal proposed the concept of Pakistan which started gaining support from muslims in large number. The Muslims were told that Delhi and Agra would also eventually become part of Pakistan. Hence Maududi form Delhi and Lucknow Muslim business people funded the Project Pakistan.


So Jinnah was waiting for Delhi and Agra to fall and merge with Pakistan eventually after 1947 to create the Mughalestan which is the original concept of the state.



</b>

[Guest]

<!--QuoteBegin-rajesh_g+Oct 25 2006, 08:50 AM-->QUOTE(rajesh_g @ Oct 25 2006, 08:50 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->ben_ami

Those quotes are from Dharampal. Read his books before doling out your opinions please.
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sure i will read the books.

still i dont think dharampal or anybody for that matter has any right to declare himself the foremost authority about past figures. they were all children of the ethos of their times and all had their flaws including a tagore or a vivekananda.

having said that i saw nothing wrong or disrespectful about the 2 quotes you cited. both, esp vivekananda hit the nail on the head. i posted my take on the quotes before.

you know i could say indians are not good at producing fast bowlers or we are not good at football. that donsnt mean i am intending disrespect. just stating plain facts.

[Guest]

<!--QuoteBegin-acharya+Oct 25 2006, 10:39 AM-->QUOTE(acharya @ Oct 25 2006, 10:39 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-ben_ami+Oct 24 2006, 04:34 PM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(ben_ami @ Oct 24 2006, 04:34 PM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->
when bengal was partitioned, indian independence was not on the horizon and the partition was done by lord Curzon with the express intention of weakenning bengal. when that ploy failed, they reluctantly shifted their capital to delhi.
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On hind sight there is a reason for the Bengal partition.<b>
Bengal Partition was to show to the Muslim League the British sincerity. The dialogue between the British and the Muslim league started from those years and the demand of the Muslim league was being negotiated.

Some of the demand of ML was recreation of the Mughal state which would include the RED FORT , Seat of power of Mughals such as Agra and Luckow. THis was a grand plan and British to show their sincerity to ML shifted the capital from Kolkotta to Delhi in 1911.


THe shifting of the capital took from 1911 to 1931 to complete which included creating the govt buildings, parliament and moving the govt papers to Delhi.

Only after 1931 that Allama Iqbal proposed the concept of Pakistan which started gaining support from muslims in large number. The Muslims were told that Delhi and Agra would also eventually become part of Pakistan. Hence Maududi form Delhi and Lucknow Muslim business people funded the Project Pakistan.


So Jinnah was waiting for Delhi and Agra to fall and merge with Pakistan eventually after 1947 to create the Mughalestan which is the original concept of the state.



</b>
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please provide evidence that lord curzon didnt divide bengal upon failing to quiten bengal. also that the capital was shifted to delhi to serve muslim interests and not british interests (the british were not at ease in calcutta anymore).

[Guest]

Do pls read them. Thanks.

[acharya]

<!--QuoteBegin-ben_ami+Oct 24 2006, 05:18 PM-->QUOTE(ben_ami @ Oct 24 2006, 05:18 PM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->
that the capital was shifted to delhi to serve muslim interests and not british interests (the british were not at ease in calcutta anymore).
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The Bengali middle class and the educated class were the Indian elite with whom the British used to intellectually interact and transact among the native people. All the institutions were created in Bengal first including the seat of power, asiatic soceity, Presidency college and the Bengal Presidency, Bengal army of the British.

When the Bengali Intellectuals saw the reality they started the movement for swaraj and home rule. They were instrumental in making sure that Indians were represented in Britain parliament and Indian govt with representative system.

This made the British to look for alternate ethnic group within India who could they rely on and create kinship and build political relationship. They no longer could rely on the enlightened Bengali intellectual to continue their British rule over the natives.

British first did the partition of Bengal in 1905 to appease the Muslim League and then shift the capital to New Delhi in 1911. Simultaneously they increased the Muslim class in the British Army and increased the strength of the Muslims in the civil class and made sure that Punjab and NWFP had more Muslim representative from 1895.

The water canals in the Punjab and land grants and jagirdhari for the Punjabi Muslim military and landlords in Punjab was started from 1900 until the 1940s to increase the Punjabi Muslim and Muslim elite loyalty. The long term goal was to create a large homogeneous class of Indians with whom the British could rely on for long term. This is the reason for the creation of Pakistan in the area and which is still a client state.

[acharya]

All India Sociological conference from Dec. 27

Chennai, Dec. 24 (PTI): The vice president of the International Sociological Association, Dr Michael Burawoy, will be among the distinguished speakers at the 32nd All India Sociological Society conference being held here for the first time since establishment of the society in 1951, from December 27 to 29.

The conference will go into the impact of science and technology on the world economic order, social structure and political systems,with particular emphasis on its implications on India's societal development, Dr D Jayalakshmi, organising secretary of the conference and Professor and Head of Madras University's department of Sociology told a press meet on Saturday.

Stating that the theme of the conference was 'Science. Technology and Society: Emerging Issues', which had enormous relevance in today's rapidly changing world, she said research papers to be presented would include topics like social change and development, culture and comunication and social problems and marginalised groups.

Other speakers at the conference, being jointly organised by the University of Madras and ISA and in collaboration with Loyola College, would include former ISA president Alberto Matinelli, Prof Hermann Schwengel Frieberg University (germany) and Prof Tagi A Azadarmaki of the University of Tehran, she said.

About 700 delegates from within and outside India, will participate in it. Delegates from USA, Italy, Iran, Israel, Australia, Germany, Malaysia and Sri Lanka have already confirmed their participation in the conference, which was last held in Tamil Nadu in 1982 at Anamalai University at Chidambaram.

[Bharatvarsh]

some info for the progressives who are always busy insulting other Indian's and proclaiming that if not for half anglicised men like Mohan Roy we would all be under dark ages practicing sati:
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Contrary to popular belief, Raja Ram Mohan Roy was not the first to
have it abolished through Bentick. Long before that, the Peshwas had
abolished Sati. The kings of Tanjore had. Do you know how they did
that? By going through our scriptures and conclusively proving that
sati had no support in them. In fact, the scriptures had prescribed
the duties of a widow, thus negating sati. For some details see the
section "Sati" in http://www.bharatvani.org/EarlyIndia.html Roy just
re-invented the wheel, often plagiarising the old arguments, and got
a British act enacted.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/IndianCivili...n/message/43171<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
In addition to this there was a ban on Sati under Akbar.

So it's time these progressive chauvinists learnt a little history about the rest of the "backward" India and spare us their progressive nonsense.

[Guest]

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->In addition to this there was a ban on Sati under Akbar.
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Bharatvarshji, please do more research on this. According to some (especially HM Elliot, PN Oak etc), it is not true that Akbar worked against Sati. PN Oak goes further saying Akbar even promoted it and organized celebrated and glorified sati acts.

[Bharatvarsh]

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Bharatvarshji, please do more research on this. According to some (especially HM Elliot, PN Oak etc), it is not true that Akbar worked against Sati. PN Oak goes further saying Akbar even promoted it and organized celebrated and glorified sati acts. <!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thanks for the info, will look into it, but when we think about it, the former is more likely since Akbar was atleast a nominal Muslim through a long period of his life and did not have much sympathy for Hindu customs, I remember reading that even Aurangzeb tried to ban this along with his music ban.

[Guest]

Bharatvarsh,

I quote from 'Who Says Akbar Was Great?", by PN Oak, Hindi Sahitya Sadan publication; which in turn quotes from "Akbar" by Shelat and "Akbar The Great Vol I" by Dr Ashirbadi Lal Shrivastava.

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->The daughter of Rai Raisinh was married to Bir Bhadra, the son of Raja Ramchandra of Panna.  When Ramchandra died, Akbar sent his son (Bir Bhadra) to Panna to ascend the throne.  When nearing the capital, Bir Bhadra fell from the palaquin and died.  His widow declared  her intention to be a Sati.  Akbar intervened.  The whole episode of how the fall of a couple of feet could be so fatal for the prince, is shrouded in mystery.

Raja Bhagwan Das' cousin Jaimull sent on duty in the eastern provinces, rode hard to comply with urgent orders, and died near Chausa from the effects of heat and over-exertion.  His widow, a daughter of Udai Singh, made preparations for Sati.  Akbar rode to the spot and stopped it.  Relatives were granted their lives but imprisioned.  Exact date and location are not stated.  Abul Fazal's records as usual lacking in clearness and precision....  The episode ends abruptly not giving further account.... very reluctant Akbar had to give her shelter and protection of his harem.

Akbar's so-called prevention of Sati ultimately reveals cases of murdering the husband and abduction of the wife.  From above two instances, we can understand the modus-operandi of obtaining for himself wives of his courtiers, whom he coveted.

After Durgawati was killed while battling with Akbar's invading forces, a terrible Jauhar was followed as usual.  The two women were left alive - Kamalavati (Rani's sister), and a daughter-in-law of deceased Rani Durgawati who was daughter of the king of Purangadh - both were sent to Agra to join Akbar's harem.  Muslim authors dont forget to mention that the marriage of Rani's son Bir Narayan and daughter of Raja of Purangadh was not yet consummated.
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[Guest]

<!--emo&:argue--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/argue.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='argue.gif' /><!--endemo--> UP dolls up job quota with sops
11 Aug, 2007, 0246 hrs IST,Man Mohan Rai, TNN


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LUCKNOW: Amid heated national debate on job reservations in private sector, the Mayawati government in Uttar Pradesh has quietly introduced a novel way of providing job quotas for the disadvantaged.

The state Cabinet meeting here on Friday decided that corporates setting up new projects in select sectors may go for voluntary job reservation of 30%, if they wish to avail of tax concessions in the state. In effect, the decision takes away tax reliefs and concessions for new projects in specified sectors which do not provide job quotas.

As per the Cabinet decision, industrial units, infrastructure projects, educational institutes, service sector projects and disinvested units, which are set up with fiscal incentives, will have to provide 30% job reservation.

Projects in these categories, which propose to make use of land, grants, or tax concessions from the government or its departments will have to sign a contract with the government.

Of the 30%, 10% jobs will be reserved for scheduled castes, 10% for other backward castes and backward religious minorities and 10% for the economically weaker sections from upper castes.

Chief minister Mayawati said that with meagre government job opportunities and a host of private projects coming up in the state, the decision will provide opportunities to the disadvantaged sections of the society.

Principal secretary to the CM Shailesh Krishna claimed that the reservations are voluntary in nature. “Only those private sector projects which seek and avail of concessions and tax benefits from the government will have to enter into a contract with the government to provide reservations. Those projects which do not wish to avail of concessions can set up units without providing any reservations and we will provide all help and cooperation in the execution of their projects,” Mr Krishna said.

He said the contract for providing reservations will be limited only to fresh private sector investments and those government units that are privatised.

“This is not a new law. It will only be a contract between the government and the private party, that in lieu of various tax benefits and reliefs being offered, they will reserve 30% of jobs,” stressed Mr Krishna.

[Guest]

"Indian Form of SOCIALISM was NOT a MISTAKE"

Religious, caste, and regional diversity prevail in India against a background of poverty. After the independence in 1947, the British left India in terrible condition. The country emerged from World War II with a rudimentary scientific and industrial base and a rapidly expanding population living primarily in villages and was divided by gross inequalities in status and wealth. Under the leadership of Jawaharlal Nehru, India's first prime minister (1947-64),

India addressed its economic crisis through a combination of socialist planning and free enterprise.

Nehruji was a rational thinker . he wanted to apply science and technology to solve great mass poverty that prevail at the time of in dependence. Nehruji wanted to industrialize and combine British parliamentary democracy with soviet style central planning. Which becomes “Indian form of Socialism”.

Few believe that India made a mistake by adopting mixed economic(neither capital nor socialist) model for growth after independence. They believe that India might have done better if they had adopted CAPITALISM after Independence . . . We BLAZE believe that :~ “INDIAN FORM OF SOCIALISM WAS NOT A MISTAKE” . . .

Let's know WHAT DO YOU THINK about it ? ? ?

[Capt M Kumar]

Pointing out the difference between how leadership was perceived a decade back and how it changed later, Kalam said that competitiveness was the key to success and it was important for one to work and succeed with integrity. He said “vision, power of travelling to the unexplored depths, management skills, courage, nobility, transparency in action and to work and succeed with integrity” were a few concrete qualities that make a leader.



Kalam recalled the “best advice” he had received when in Isro.



“One should not let problem be the captain of one’s ship. One should be the captain of the problem and defeat and overcome it.” http://www.dnaindia.com/bangalore/report...le_1416822