Hindu Origins Of Roma

[Guest]

<b>Indian origins of Roma</b>

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->The Indian origin of the Roma, on one hand, was irrefutably established nearly two and a half centuries ago. On the other hand, we still do not know precisely when the Roma left India, why they left, or to which level of society they belonged. It is decidedly not simple to verify, but through the cooperation of linguists (experts in Indic languages in their various stages of development and, of course, experts in Romani), historians (and those include specialists in Indian history as well as Persian, Byzantine and Arabic history), ethnologists and others, it might be possible to arrive at a conclusion which comes as close as possible to the truth.

<b>Although specialists have known for a long time where the Roma come from, this fact has not yet penetrated into the general consciousness. Even many Roma have not had the opportunity of learning (e.g., in school) about their land of origin.</b> In popular-science literature half truths are still passed on about how Roma belonged to the lowest, "untouchable" castes on Indian soil. That statement does not take into account the length of Indian history, in which today's "untouchables" formerly belonged to the co-creators of an advanced civilisation. Only after they were gradually subjugated by "Aryan" Indo-Europeans, did they, as defeated people, find themselves on the edge of society. <b>Exactly because the pre-history of the Roma has not been properly evaluated, some Roma deny that India is their land of origin and look for their origin, e.g. in Palestine, in Egypt, etc. </b>On the other hand, <b>there are more Roma who find in their Indian origin one of their sources of national pride</b>. One of these, for example, is the Russian Roma poet (born in Latvia) Leksa Manush. He wrote a paraphrase of one of the two oldest Indian epic poems, "Ramajanam". Naturally even Roma historians such as the above-mentioned Ian Hancock, the late Bartoloměj Daniel or Jana Horváthová and others are aware of the Indian origin of Roma and try to contribute to filling in the picture of "Indian" Roma history.

In India there is a very strong interest in Roma. In the capital of the state of Punjab, Chandigarh, a Roma centre has been functioning for the past 70 years. It was originally founded by politician and diplomat W.R. Rishi. It publishes the magazine "Roma" and Roma literature. It published, for example, Manush's modern version of "Ramajanam".

On Indian soil there have been international Roma cultural festivals. One of them took place in Chandigarh in 1993. It was addressed by the then prime minister, Indira Gandhi.

A good understanding of Indian culture and history can contribute to the national pride of the Roma.
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[Guest]

From Ian Hancock's book
<b>How Indian are Romanies?</b>


“Oh Indra, determine who are Aryan and who are Dasa, and separate them!”


While a nine centuries’ removal from India has diluted the Indian biological connection to the extent that for some Romani groups it may hardly be representative today, Sareen (1976:42) concluded that overall, we still remain closer, genetically, to Asians than to the Europeans around us; European genetic material, for some groups at least, is still located at the shallow end of the gene pool:

The European Gypsies, who migrated from Northern India about 800-1,000 years ago, have been well studied serologically, mostly by ABO, MNS and Rh systems. The results indicate that their blood groups agree well with the warrior classes of northern India . . . and differ significantly from those of the local European population . . . the individuality of the blood its other serum protein factors, such as haptoglobins, transferins, the group-specific component (Gc) and the Gm system. Hp1 gene has been known to be the least common in Asia, with a gene-frequency of only 0.2 to 0.3; it could thus help in studies on Roma. Haptoglobin groups have been studied in Swedish Gypsies in comparison with those in Swedes and North Indians, and these also point to their North Indian origin.


Siváková (1983:98), another geneticist who has compared Indian, Romani and European serological material, found the same results:


As can be seen, the lowest genetic distance value was found between the recent Indian population and the Slovak Gypsies. In other words, these two populations are in the closest relationship, suggesting a relatively low degree of genetic assimilation of Gypsies with their surrounding populations.

Mastana & Papiha (1992:50) have demonstrated that this is more evident in eastern European Romani populations than among those in western Europe, where the incidence of mixing with non-Romanies has been higher:


The evidence of the present study favours that Gypsy populations of eastern Europe still have greater genetic affinity with Indian nomadic groups and the genetic differentiation may primarily be due to isolation, high rate of migration of subgroups towards Europe and genetic drift, whilst the Western Gypsies are more homogeneous to their local population which might have resulted from a high degree of genetic admixture.


Nevertheless, culture, language and identity are not inherited genetically but socially, and apart from the genetic and linguistic evidence, a core of direct, unbroken transmission from India in these other areas may also be readily identified. While there are many Romani customs and beliefs for which no origin has been determined (such as symbolically cutting the invisible lupunza or fetters which tie an infant’s feet together to allow it to learn to walk, with the words por, por, por "feather, feather, feather"), parallels in India may yet be found as research continues.

Some would seem to be incontrovertibly Indian, however. These are found among Romanies throughout the world in all areas of the culture; some groups in Hungary, Slovakia and Transylvania maintain the Indian bhairava musical scale, for example, as well as a type of mouth music known in India as bol and called bega in Romani (and szaj bögö in Hungarian), which consists of nonsense syllables imitating the rhythm of the tabla drum. The tribunal where internal disputes are settled, called the kris(i) in Romani, while a Greek word, is identifiable with the Indian panchayat or nasab, and has the same form and function, or even likelier with the earlier administrative and judicial Rajput body of men called the panchak la, from which the panchayat developed. The pilivani wrestling matches with oiled bodies, called pehlivan in India and Iran, and the stick dancing (called rovljako khelipe or botolo in Romani) are both still found amongst Romanies in Hungary; snake-charming (called farmeko sapano) is a profession among Romanies in Serbia; the burning of one’s possessions after death (called phabaripen) and even, among some populations at least into the twentieth century, the ritual suicide of the widow, which has striking parallels with s ti in India. Marriages (biava) which are arranged by the couple’s families (the betrothals are called thomnimata), and which take place between children, and which involve dowry (darro), are Romani as well as Indian. Fonseca (1996:110-11) has commented upon the Romani habit found in India of “shaking the head from side to side to signify ‘yes’”.

Hübschmannová (1972) provides valuable insights into the parallels between traditional Indian social structure and the divisions within Rromanipen. She has also found (1978:277-8) what she believes to be retentions of Indian personal names among Romanies in the Czech Republic. Some of these, which existed among the adivasi subcaste are Bado, Duzhda, Gadjor, Goral, Kandji, Karela, Mizhikar and Mirga, and are all found in Europe today. Rishi (1976) lists several more that he has also recognised.

Some Romani groups in Europe today appear to maintain elements of Shaktism or goddess-worship; the Rajputs worshipped the warrior-goddess Parvati, another name for the female deity Sati-Sara, who is Saint Sarah, the Romani Goddess of Fate. That she forms part of the yearly pilgrimage to La Camargue at Stes. Maries de la Mer in the south of France is of particular significance; here she is carried into the sea just as she is carried into the waters of the Ganges each December in India. Both Sati-Sara and St Sarah wear a crown, both are also called Kali, and both have shining faces painted black. Sati-Sara is a consort of the god Shiva, and is known by many other names, Bhadrakali, Uma , Durga and Syama among them. Various Romani populations in Europe and America also maintain nacijange semnura or group symbols, such as the sun (representing the Serbian Romanies) and the moon (representing the Lovara), which may be found drawn or carved onto the stago or ‘standard’ at a wedding, and on the semno or rupuni rovli (‘silver baton’), i.e. the clan leader’s staff, and which are appealed to at the consecration of the mulengi sinija or ‘table of the dead’ at a Vlax Romani pomana (plural pomeni) or wake. Here, the invocation is “Khama, Chona thaj Devla, ašun man!” which means “Sun, Moon and God, hear me”. The significance is in the fact that the Sun and the Moon were the two symbols worn emblematically on the armour and tunics of the Rajput warriors to identify them in battle from all others.

Elements of an Indian legacy have been preserved in Romani riddles. Reference to the Vedic god of the wind and the air, Vayu (also called Marut), is retained in a number of these: Kana hulavel peske bal o Vajo, legenisavol e char (“When Vayu combs his hair, the grass sways”), Amaro Vajo hurjal tela savorrenge podji, aj konik našti t’astarel les (“Our Vayu flies under everyone’s petticoats, and no one can catch him”), O pharo vurdon e Vajosko tsirdajlo ekhe šele grastendar kaj phurden ande’l rrutunja (“Vayu’s heavy waggon is pulled by a hundred horses blowing through their nostrils”)­the answer to each is e balval “the wind”. In Indian theology the task of Vayu’s son M ruti (also called Hanuman) is to tear open the clouds and let the rain fall, and in Romani the expression marutisjol o Del means “the sky [lit. “God”] is growing overcast”. The reference to a hundred horses may also be of Vedic origin; there are several references in the scriptures to the a vamedha yajña or “horse sacrifice”, whereby in ancient India the king would release one hundred horses to roam freely through his kingdom. Stopping them or blocking their path was forbidden.

The female spirits or fates, called the vursitorja, hover in its presence three days after a child is born to determine its destiny and to influence the choice of name the parents will decide upon. They may be compared with the Indian m trk or “little mother” spirits who also possess a baby’s destiny at the time of its birth. The red thread (the loli dori) tied around a newborn’s ankle or wrist and worn for two or three years afterwards to guard against the jakhalo or ‘evil eye’ reflects the protective properties of that colour, which is also worn or painted on the body in India.

Shiva’s trident, called trishula in Sanskrit, changed its role from Hindu symbol to Christian symbol and has become the Romani word for “cross” (trušul). This probably happened when the migration first reached Armenia; in the Lomavren language terusul means both “church” and “priest”, another indication that the ancestors of the Rom and the Lom may still have been together at that time. Similarly, rašaj “(Christian) holy man” represents a shift of meaning from Sanskrit rseya “of a (Hindu) holy man”. The Romani word for “Easter”, Patradji, as well as the word kirvo “godfather” are almost certainly from Armenian, as is the word xanamik, “co-parent-in-law”, further indication that it was in Armenian-speaking lands that our ancestors first encountered Christianity. Although Hinduism as a cohesive faith has not survived, our people today practicing a great number of religions adopted because of a historical need to survive, nevertheless many Hindu-based beliefs continue to be maintained in day-to-day cultural behaviour. These similarities have been discussed in a number of works by Indian authors, among them Rishi, Joshi, Bhattacharya, Lal, Shashi and Singhal, and these can be usefully read for more parallels between Romani and Indian societies.

‘Religion’ is usually thought of in terms of a physical place of worship, a set of written scriptures and a clergy, and for that reason it has been repeatedly stated that we have no religion of our own since we have none of these. One story maintains that we did have a church once long ago, but it was made of cheese and we got hungry and ate it. A truer definition of religion is that it is the belief in a higher spiritual power, and the maintenance of a daily way of life dedicated to serving and pleasing that power. From this perspective, not only do we have a religion, but living it is so much a part of our lives that we don’t even think of it as such; it isn’t only saved for the weekends. We believe in one god, o Devel or o Del, and the devil, o Beng, and we believe that there is a constant struggle between them for dominance over our lives. To live properly is to abide by a set of behaviours collectively called Rromanipen or Rromanija, and this entails maintaining spiritual balance. This Ayurvedic concept, called karma in India (and in Romani kintala, or in some dialects kintari or kintujmos) is fundamental to the Romani worldview. This dualistic perspective groups the universe into pairs, God and the Devil, Romanies and non-Romanies, adults and children, clean and polluted­even the stages of life are two in number: adulthood (and able to produce children) and, taken together, childhood and old age (when one is not able to produce children).

Time spent in the non-Romani world (the jado) drains spiritual energy or dji. Sampson (1926:257) gives the various meanings of this word as “[s]eat of the emotions, heart, soul; temper, disposition, mood; courage, spirit”, comparing it to Sanskrit jiva, Hindi ji, “life, soul, spirit, mind” and Armenian (h)ogi, “soul”. One’s spiritual batteries can only be recharged by spending time in an all-Romani environment­in the normal course of events, in family homes. It is in the area of spiritual and physical wellbeing (baxt) that the Indian origin of our Romani people is most clearly seen.

In the preparation of food, and in one’s personal hygiene and deportment, it is absolutely essential that a separation between the two conditions of ‘pure’ and ‘polluted’ be maintained. A pure state is achieved by maintaining the spiritual balance in one’s life and avoiding shame (ladjav or ladj); that is, being declared unclean or, in extreme cases, being shunned by the community. Avoiding shame involves, among other things, demonstrating patjiv or ‘respect’ to the elders. Maintaining balance or harmony pleases the spirits of the ancestors (the mulé), and they are there to guard one and help one to do it, but if they are displeased, they will mete out punishment, or a ‘warning signal’ (prikaza), by way of retribution. Depending upon the nature of the transgression, this may be mild, e.g. stubbing one’s toe, or so severe as to involve sickness and even death. The consequences of prikaza underlie the universal Romani belief that nothing is an accident­that nothing happens simply by chance.

The penalty for extreme pollution is being banished, or made an outcast, and an out-caste, from the community, for which different Romani words are durjardo, gonime or strazhime. ‘Banishment’ is variously durjaripe, gonimos or strazha, which may or may not imply a state of pollution, being imposed also for other reasons, e.g. disregard for territorial claims. Being in a state of pollution is being magerdo, marime, pokhelime or makherdo (literally ‘smeared’, i.e. with menstrual blood). These words can be contrasted with melalo which also means ‘dirty’, but only from physical dirt. Daravipe (‘fearfulness’, from dar ‘fear’) is a particular charge of marital infidelity that, if proven, also demands a penalty, perhaps even the disfigurement of the offending party.

Prikaza brings bad luck (bibaxt) and illness (nasvalipe), and it can be attracted even by socializing with people who are not vuzhe (< vuzho ‘clean’). Non-Romani people are not seen as vu e, which is why Romanies avoid contact which is too intimate. But this is not an inherited condition of non-Romanies, it is because these cultural practices are not maintained. A non-Romani woman who marries into a Romani family is expected to adopt them, and in doing so becomes in that context vuzhi. Without a doubt, it is particularly the factor of ritual cleanliness and ritual defilement that has helped maintain Romani separateness­and as a result Romani identity­for so long.


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<i>
[p.70>] There is in the brâhmanas a constant association of the notions of noose (pâza) and drúh. Vedic man prayed to be delivered from Varuna's noose, or from "wrongness" and the noose, or from the noose of wrongness. Cf. "With the words 'I have been delivered from Varuna's noose' he is delivered from the Varuna-noose", " 'With the words 'May I be delivered from wrongness, from Varuna's noose, he delivers him from wrongness, from the Varuna-noose", "That snare of wrongness of thine, O king Varuna, that, consisting of the metre Gâyatrî, has entered the earth and has the brahman for its support, that of thine I hereby avert, by sacrifice, svâhâ to it!" The phrase "snares of wrongness" occurs once in the Rigveda: "The furious man, O Maruts, who is fain to kill us, even when we do not expect it' O Vasus' may he put on himself the snares of wrongness". cf. also in the Atharvaveda: "Thus I deliver thee from the afterbirth, Nirrti, the curse that come from thy kin, from wrongness, from Varuna's noose" and "the fetters of wrongness that does not release." [<p.70] [p.71>] Varuna's krûra ['cruel' - SV] character is most clearly shown by the fact that he is identical with Death. The Gopatha Brahmana even uses the term Varuna Mrtyu. In the funeral hymns of the Rigveda it is said that the deceased will see king Varuna and Yama in the next world and in one of the Vasistha hymns, which testify to a close intimacy with Varuna, the poet prays the gods that he may not have to go into the "clay house". In spite of Geldner's different interpretation these words probably refer to the grave. [note #256>] Geldner Kommentar, p.115: "die irdene Gruft für die Gebeine, das Beinhaus"; Übersetzung: "die Urne, in der die Gebeine beigesetzt wurden." [<#256] [<p.71]

F.B.J. Kuiper, I.11 "Varuna as a Demoniacal Figure and as the God of Death" (pp.67-74), Varuna and Vidûshaka (North Holland Publishing Company, Amsterdam 1979)</i>

[Guest]

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin--><b>Romani language takes written form for first time</b>
From: Knight Ridder/Tribune News Service
Date: March 25, 1998
Author: Hutson, Jonathan

A scholarly team led by a linguistics professor of Romani descent have discovered new evidence of the origins of the Roma people, commonly known as Gypsies.

``That term is an abbreviation of `Egyptian,' which is ahistorical,'' says Dr. Ian Hancock of the University of Texas. ``It's pretty clear to us that our ancestors were Rajputs, an Indian-military force created from various people, reflecting several dialect groups.''

In the early 11th century, when the Rajputs were combating the spread of Islam, Romani originated in northern India, emerging from the same Middle Indian period as Hindi and Punjabi.

``We know that,'' says Hancock, ``because of the military vocabulary in Romani, which is Indian, not European, and because of the four words for a non-Gypsy person. The most common one is `gadjo'; this means civilian in Sanskrit, the mother tongue. The other three mean `prisoner of war.'

``This is a very new refinement of an earlier theory,'' he says. Since the 1960s, scholars have debated whether the Roma originated from the Dom, a lower caste of traveling musicians, or from a higher caste of warriors. By interrogating Romani's linguistic origins, Hancock thinks his team has uncovered some vital clues. ``We're looking closely at Indian languages and cultures, tracking down the origins of certain words which have been a mystery to us. For example, one of the words for a non-Gypsy, `gomi,' means a `person who has surrendered.'''

<b>The Roma diaspora from India began about 1,000 years ago, as the Rajputs pursued confrontations with Muslims along the western edge of Islam's expansion. As military people, the Rajputs were in the second-highest caste, divided into two groups denoting honorary descent from the sun or the moon. They wore insignia on their battle dress indicating whether they belonged to the sun- or moon group.

``These symbols turn up today among the Roma, among different `vitsi,' or clans,'' he explains. ``The Kalderash are the sun, the Lovari are the moon.'' </b>

Sheila Salo, a researcher on the ethnography and history of North American Roma, verifies that at least one group, the Kalderash, have been known to invoke the sun and the moon during the memorial feast called ``pomana,'' but states that this alone would not prove the Rajput theory of Rom origins. ``There may be political motivations for advancing that theory,'' she says, ``but I couldn't comment more without evaluating all the linguistic evidence.''

Although the many dialects of this language are rich in oral traditions, including stories and folk songs, it has only been in the past 30 years that Romani written literature has emerged, according to Dr. Hancock, who heads an International Romani Union commission charged with creating the first general encyclopedia in Romani.

Romani scholars have published dictionaries and a grammar and are preparing a poetry anthology, a collection of proverbs and translations of children's books. ``I've just finished a version of Dr. Seuss,'' says Hancock. ``Once we have our own textbooks and our own ethnic schools, that will be a main step toward empowerment and self-determination.''

Romani activist Gregory Kwiek agrees. On Saturdays he assembles a group of Gypsy children on Staten Island, N.Y., to teach them to read and write in their native language. ``Our society has been evolving,'' says Kwiek. ``Some of our youth were able to stay in the same place, to get educated, and because of that, this generation will make a difference.''

© 1998, The American News Service. For further information on ANS, please call 1-800-654-NEWS or e-mail info(at)americannews.com
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[Guest]

<b>Romani People</b>

[Guest]

<!--QuoteBegin-k.ram+Apr 29 2007, 12:25 AM-->QUOTE(k.ram @ Apr 29 2007, 12:25 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin--><b>Romani People</b>
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As genetic and linguistic seems to confirm,the roma people and related groups like chandala and dom,came from south India.

[Guest]

xposting...

==
Honsol, you'd probabily find this interesting.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Gypsies were the first Bharatiya expatriates
   
Agreed that gypies were the first Bharatiya expatriates, But, I disagree with Valery Novoselsky that Roma are a 'racial' group. They are the lineage of Bharatiya people who had lived on the banks of River Sarasvati. It is unfortunate that the 'race' term surfaces again and again while some try to stereotype communities. Ancestors of gysies were mleccha-speakers.

-xxxxxx


<!--QuoteBegin--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->
Q&A: 'Gypsies were the first Indian expatriates'
12 Nov 2007, 0000 hrs IST , Meenakshi Kumar


Valery Novoselsky has been active in international Roma movement. As the editor of Roma Virtual Network, an organisation that provides helpful information on Roma issues through the internet, he is trying to change perceptions about his people. Novoselsky was recently in the capital for a talk on the Roma (commonly referred to as Gypsies) in Europe and their ancestral relations with India . He spoke to Meenakshi Kumar:

<b>Has the condition of the European Roma changed? </b>
After the fall of the Iron Curtain, there has been an improvement. But some problems continue. Lack of education and unemployment still plague most European Roma. Across Central Europe, from Czech Republic to Macedonia, 70-80 per cent of working-age Roma are unemployed. When it comes to education, 90 per cent students are placed in schools meant for the disabled and one-third of Roma children don't study at all. But things are improving, even though the pace is slow. Many Roma, moreover, live in deprived and segregated areas with poor-quality housing, a lack of basic services and limited access to good quality health care.

<b>The Roma have been looked at with suspicion over the years. Under the communists they got a raw deal. Does the discrimination still exist? </b>
Discrimination is less visible today, but it is there. Changing ethnic stereotypes is not easy. There are countries which try to stop the Roma from entering their boundaries. Even some members of the European parliament have anti-Roma attitudes.

They talk about a Europe for the Europeans. Now, where will the Roma people go? They don't have a country of their own; they adopt the country they are born into. That's one of the reasons why many Roma people refuse to register their ethnic identity in official censuses for fear of discrimination. And that's why we still don't have their true numbers. The communists were against the Roma style of life, which is basically against totalitarianism.

<b>It's believed that the Roma have an origin in India? How true is that? </b>
Yes, it's true. Our roots are here. It were circumstances which forced us to move and spread out. Mahmud Ghazni took our ancestors from different parts of north India to Afghanistan and Iran. Later, with every successive invasion, they were forced to move out and seek refuge in different parts of the world.

Over centuries we have become a part of the country we adopted as our motherland. Roma were the first Indian expatriates. And now after years, many of us realise that we need a connection with our real homeland. We have to return to our forgotten motherland and it has to be a two-way process. As far as our connection with the banjaras is concerned, we believe that the latter are just a social group. On the other hand, Roma is a racial group. http://tinyurl.com/2cbpx7  <!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
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[Guest]

Can we work with the Roma community leaders to convert them to Hinduism?

This will bring millions of people to Hinduism in Europe.

[Guest]

<!--QuoteBegin-mitradena+Nov 25 2007, 05:53 AM-->QUOTE(mitradena @ Nov 25 2007, 05:53 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->Can we work with the Roma community leaders to convert them to Hinduism?

This will bring millions of people to Hinduism in Europe.
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very good idea.
how you sugest to make this?
i can go to romani criss asociation whit this sugestion and see what will happend.

[Guest]

Gypsies (Tsiganes, Zigeuner, Çingeneler …) or

“Roma” (“Sinti & Roma”)
Some Reflections about “Political Correctness”

with special reference to Germany





If I remember correctly, the name of this symposium initially had “Gypsies” in its title; later on this was changed to “Roman”. This “development” is actually the subject of my contribution today.

In many countries, especially western ones – and for the last few years in Turkey, too – efforts have been made over the past three decades to assert and push through a new “political correctness” by renaming “Gypsies”, “Tsiganes”, “Cigani”, “Zigeuner”, “Çingeneler” and so forth as “Roma” (“Romanies”) or “Sinti and Roma”, the specific usage “designed” for Germany and the German language. I want to discuss here the reasons for this “language reform”and its implications.

To make it clear at the very beginning: I belong to those, who think it more appropriate to keep the specific (outsider) terms of the majority populations for Gypsies, as they have been used for centuries.



The main points put forward when asking outsiders to use the designation “Roma” can be summarized as follows:

1. Reference is generally made to the First Romani World Congress in London in 1971 and its decision that from then on all the Gypsies of the world should be called “Roma”.

2. It is obviously perceived as a kind of “natural right”, that the specific term used by the group itself is postulated to be the only valid one.

3. Nearly all the foreign names for Gypsies are said to be pejorative, discriminating and tainted with prejudice.

4. Concerning the traditional German word for Gypsies (Zigeuner) it is argued that National-socialism brought the term into discredit, although, at the same time, it is stated that the term has always been pejorative.

5. Sometimes it is argued that the term “Roma” has already become so colloquial, that persons who do not behave according to what is thought to be politically correct, are labelled at least as backward, if not as racist (or in Germany as Nazi).

6. When confronted with the fact that many Gypsies themselves use the terms attached to them by their neighbours, it is put forward that it would be different when Gypsies themselves use these, from when outsiders do so.



Let’s now discuss these arguments one by one.

1. At the First Romani World Congress in 1971 only about two dozen “delegates”, apart from a few observers, are said to have taken the far-reaching decision for several millions of Gypsies worldwide, that they should thenceforth present themselves as “Roma”. Even when we take later Romani World Congresses with more participants into consideration, the legitimacy for such far-reaching decisions is rather weak.

Nearly all Gypsy groups, to my knowledge, lack a sense of larger trans-tribal units experienced in common, and solidarity beyond clans, tribes, local or regional units is largely absent. Although several organizations for Gypsies in different countries – which, by the way, often incorporate foreign terms in their names – have been founded during recent decades, they are not deeply rooted in the communities concerned. Trans-national or even world organizations enjoy even less support from local and regional groups. Rivalry between different persons or groups is still widespread.



2. There are many Gypsy groups (especially Oriental ones) who have never heard of the term “Roma” and many more who have their own different designations (like Lom or Dom in Turkey). There is no legitimacy or justification in attaching a “Roma” label to them. Besides, this would contradict attaching the recognition of insider names that is supposedly aimed at.

By the way, the “original” term for Gypsies seems to be “Dom”, rather than “Rom”.

Of course, a problem arises when one really speaks about Roma “proper” and not about Gypsies in general. Therefore one would always have to explain whether one is using the term “Roma” in a broader or narrower sense.

We are in need for a term covering all different Gypsy groups. And we have such terms in the specific languages.

If it were demanded, that henceforward only insider terms should be used worldwide, one can imagine what kind of confusion and uncertainty would arise. Such a procedure is certainly not in the interest of many ethnic groups and nations. For example: Germans are called Germans although they call themselves “Deutsche” and although they are not the only Germanic people. Although the Alemannen form just a small part (or tribe, if you like) of Germans, all Germans are called “Allemands/ Almanlar” by, for instance, French or Turks. Even “worse”, Germans are called “dumb” (Njemac, Nemci and so forth) in Slavonic languages. Despite all these strange foreign designations for Germans, I have not heard about any protest against them.

It is much more “natural” that ethnic groups or nations bear names different from those given to them by their neighbours. Insider terms are often almost unknown to neighbouring groups, and quite often the designations given by foreigners have some negative or at least incorrect aspects. In this way we come to the next argument.



3. Gypsies have had a negative image for centuries, regardless what they were called. Combatting discrimination cannot be done by just attaching a different label. Prejudices are then very likely to be transfered to the new name.

Alongside with negative associations when thinking about Gypsies, there were also positive, often romantic, associations connected with them. “Gypsy music” is generally highly esteemed and newspapers, which otherwise use the “political correct” term for Gypsies, still write about “Gypsy music” (Zigeunermusik), since it has already become a well-recognised label. In Germany several societies (generally connected with the carnival) have named themselves “Zigeuner”; they would certainly not have done so if the term had only a negative connotation.

Not only is nothing (positive) gained by renaming, but the moral pressure connected with this provides yet a further reason for rejecting Gypsies. The establishment of taboos often provokes counter- reactions.



4. It is certainly wrong to assert that the Nazis brought the term “Zigeuner” into discredit. The Nazis had attached far more negative aspects to the image of Jews than were associated with them before. Nobody, however, would therefore demand that the name “Jude” be dropped in German.

As some of you may know, the federal government of Germany plans to errect a memorial for the Gypsy victims of the Nazi terror in Berlin. Since the “Zentralrat Deutscher Sinti und Roma” (Central Council of German Sinti and Roma) is fighting fiercely against the term “Zigeuner” in the inscription of the memorial, an oppositional Sinti group is defending the term. In order to counter the argument that Nazis had discredited the name and as a compromise, the responsible state minister of cultural affairs proposed to have the inscription in English and then use the term “Gypsies”.

It is just folk-etymology to trace the word “Zigeuner” back to “Ziehgauner” (a strolling crook). To use that as an argument against the term is not simply ignorance: since similar terms (Cigan and so forth) like “Zigeuner” are used in Slavonic languages, the term could not possibly be derived from “Ziehgauner”.

By the way, the special German usage “Sinti & Roma” – in a global context itself an rather unusual designation for an ethnic group (x and y connected with an “and”) – reflects the fact, that Sinti don’t want to be lumped together with Roma and therefore don’t want to be called by the same name.



5. The term “Sinti & Roma” in Germany has not yet become so colloquial that the majority of the population could use the terms correctly in grammatical terms (singular-plural, masculine-feminine) or even know the difference between Sinti and Roma. Thus newspapers very often write quite incorrectly about “Sinti and Roma” when refering to some Gypsies or even to countries where hardly any Sinti live.

“Zigeuner” have their position in German folklore and culture as they certainly have in other countries, too. One cannot replace the term “Zigeuner” in proverbs, sayings, songs, geographic names etc. by “Sinti & Roma”. One would make Gypsies much more alien by calling them “new names” than they have been hitherto.

When in historical documents “Zigeuner” occur, one cannot declare them to be Sinti, Roma or Sinti and Roma. Sometimes the term “Zigeuner” is also used for Gypsy-like groups (for instance the Jenische).



6. Just to give Gypsies (and not Gadje) the right to call themselves by outsider names, would mean something like George Orwell’s “double-think”. Should “native speakers” who had “invented” the terms “Gypsies”, “Zigeuner” and so forth, not be allowed to use a word of their own language, while others should ? This is certainly not easy to explain to the average citizen.



The arguments discussed above were those generally brought forward in connection with the subject. But there are certainly other reasons which are not uttered openly. Perhaps the fighters for “political correctness”, both among Gypsies and Gadje are not even fully aware of them.

One of the reasons seems to be to gain or exercise power. An ethnic minority (Gypsies) and a political minority (persons with an anti-authoritarian ideology and a strong rejection of the “establishment”) try to apply moral pressure in a field, where a “victory” seems easily to be achieved. Besides the social-psychological explanations for such behaviour, a victory, in the case of Gypsy organizations, is thought to be a means of gathering more followers. A strengthened organization has a better chance, for example, to obtain financial resources.



I would like to finish my contribution with a quotation from a collection of essays by the German-Romanian writer Herta Müller („Der Staub ist blind – die Sonne ein Krüppel. Zur Situation der Zigeuner in Rumänien“, in: „Hunger und Seide“ (Reinbek bei Hamburg 1997, p.153, my own translation): „I went to Romania with the word „Roma“, used it at the beginning during conversations and encountered a lack of understanding everywhere. ‘The word is hypocritical’, I was told, ‘we are Gypsies, and the word is good, as far as we are treated well.’”



A struggle against discrimination needs much energy. One should not waste energy on a battle about or against words, especially when the arguments in favour are rather weak.

http://www.rbenninghaus.de/zigeuner-begriff.htm

[Guest]

On January 17, 2003, the UN Development Program/Regional Bureau for Europe and the CIS (UNDP/RBEC) published a report on the situation of the gypsies of Romania, Bulgaria, Hungary, Slovakia and the Czech Republic. The "Roma Regional Development Report" ("Roma" is the name the gypsies now prefer for themselves, however historically inaccurate it may be), was immediately picked up by the left-wing European media (see e.g. the Guardian’s "UN Report says one in six Roma is starving", 1/17).

As the UNDP report itself acknowledges, the problems with assessing the gypsies’ real, imagined or indeed self-inflicted problems start with the basic one of defining who is a gypsy and how many of them are. Gypsies themselves do not agree on this. They are divided along dialectal, tribal, and historic occupational lines. For instance, in Romania, the country with the largest gypsy population, the gypsies have historically been divided between caldarari (caldron makers), lingurari (wooden spoon makers), aurari (river gold miners), ursari (bear trainers) and, most prominent and influential, lautari (musicians). Similar divisions apply elsewhere in Eastern and Central Europe. While such distinctions have lost their old meaning, they remain under different forms.

They are also highly opportunistic. Depending on circumstances, Gypsies may declare themselves gypsies in official censuses or declare themselves part of the dominant community in which they live—Hungarian in Hungary or Romanian Transylvania; Czechs in Slovakia; Slovaks in the Czech Republic—whatever is more advantageous. The same goes with religion. In Turkish-dominated areas of Bulgaria they identify themselves as Muslim, while elsewhere (e.g. Romanian Moldova and Wallachia) they are Orthodox. In Transylvania, depending on location, they could be Calvinists, Orthodox, or even Unitarian.

That means that general reports such as UNDP’s about the conditions of the gypsy minority are based on quicksand. Meaningful analysis of a "community" one cannot even define is difficult. As to its size, the Romanian 1992 census counted 409,723 gypsies, while most realistic estimates put that number at 1.5 million and gypsy militants claim some 2.5 million. Hungary counted 142,836 in its 1990 census and 190,046 in 2001; again, more realistic independent figures are closer to 500,000.

There can be no argument about the historic discrimination against gypsies in Eastern Europe. In the Romanian principalities of Wallachia and Moldova, until the mid-nineteenth century they were serfs to be sold as village communities, families or indeed individuals. Hitler attempted to eliminate them entirely, beginning with the 1938 Zigeuneraufräumungswoche ("gypsy clean-up week") and culminating in the genocide at Auschwitz (what Gypsy collective memories call Porajmos). In fact, the percentage of the gypsy population murdered by the Nazis was probably as high or even higher than the percentage of the Jewish population killed.

As a people (or, more accurately, a collection of disparate groups) originating in India’s Gujarat, gypsies were the camp followers of Mongol invaders of Eastern Europe in the 13th century. Once within the Byzantine Empire, they adapted the Byzantine self-defining term of Romaioi ("Romans" in Greek), given Byzantium’s claim to be the direct successor of the (Eastern) Roman Empire. Hence today’s historically absurd self-definition as "Roma." Whatever name they choose for themselves (and "Roma" appears to be the most potentially lucrative and thus increasingly the most fashionable one), all gypsies, regardless of their centuries-old differences of dialect and history, define themselves less as an inclusive ethnic group and more as distinct from the gagea—the non-gypsies around them. To accept the values and rules of the gagea is to cease to be a gypsy—a policy that has had profound impact on the size of the gypsy community and its ability to carry its culture forward, since intermarriage with the gagea has always been common.

In addition of being the most linguistically adept people in the region, the gypsies have made extraordinary contributions to European music, influencing Hungarian, Romanian, Spanish, Russian, and Balkan music and dance. Spanish flamenco dances and the works of Spain’s preeminent poet of the twentieth century, Federico Garcia Lora, are basically gypsy inspired. And despite nationalist East European claims to the contrary, Romanian, Hungarian, and Eastern Slav (Slovak and Ukrainian) folk music and dances are ultimately heavily influenced by the gypsies.

But then there is the other side: the historic dysfunctional nature of the gypsy society, which continues to today. While any suggestion that gypsies are a dysfunctional, indeed criminally minded subgroup elicits strenuous denials and counter allegations of racism, it remains the case that in all countries where they are present in a significant number, they are disproportionately represented among the criminal elements. Prior to 1989 their activities didn’t go much beyond petty theft; now they have "graduated" into far more serious types of crimes: from robbery to murder and from theft to international drug and illegal migrant trafficking.

Nor can it be simple poverty accounting for this. Sibiu, a fairly large city in Romanian Transylvania, boasts the huge kitsch palaces of "Emperor Julian" and "King" Cioaba of the Romanian gypsies complete with gold-covered roofs. In Bucharest one sees gypsy gang leaders with huge 18-karat gold chains and enormous rings. But the EU has made them official "victims."
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WoPe0fcUWak
In 2004 the EU will vote on the admission of some of these countries with large gypsy populations and have to face the obvious: a dysfunctional, criminally oriented "community" that has well learned how to manipulate human rights claims. This community, which has been on the record for centuries as refusing to accept gagea rules such as the rule of law, obligatory schooling, and the civic responsibilities of voting, will be free to migrate around and benefit from that same gagea, all the way from Helsinki to Lisbon. It will be interesting to see whether authors of articles like "Shame of a Continent" (the Guardian, 1/08) on the gypsies’ plight hold to their views after their own countries begin to receive large numbers of gypsy immigrants.

http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/Read....32-7725954173AE

[Guest]

[quote=k.ram,Nov 21 2007, 07:10 AM]
xposting...

==
Honsol, you'd probabily find this interesting.

may be Viren will like to add something.

[ramana]

If they were people escaping the Islamic invasions of the early 1000 A.D. they could have acquired their name from Rum ie Byzantium. OTH if they were westward migrating tribes of Dom that could be another explanation. Has any one studied the Dommari/Banjara tribals and the Roma people? What I find difficult is to associate them with Rajputs. They might even be from before the Islamic invasions. The descriptions of their theogony (Varuna etc) speaks of Vedic gods.

[Guest]

<!--QuoteBegin-ramana+Dec 12 2007, 03:22 AM-->QUOTE(ramana @ Dec 12 2007, 03:22 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->If they were people escaping the Islamic invasions of the early 1000 A.D. they could have acquired their name from Rum ie Byzantium. OTH if they were westward migrating tribes of Dom that could be another explanation. Has any one studied the Dommari/Banjara tribals and the Roma people? What I find difficult is to associate them with Rajputs. They might even be from before the Islamic invasions. The descriptions of their theogony (Varuna etc) speaks of Vedic gods.
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why not being descendents from the rajputs? the warlike behavior and high self-esteem of the roma are not also traits of the rajputs?
other theory sugest a central India origin,base on language substrat,or genetic similarity whit sinhala and bengalese;the highest concentration of nomads in India is also in central India.

[Guest]

<b>Far-right party wants to relocate Roma to India</b>
Link

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->
By ČTK

31 July 2008

Prague, July 30 (CTK) - The Czech National Party wants to succeed in the general elections in 2010 with radical anti-Romany rhetoric formulated in a 150-page study called <b>"The Final Solution to the Gipsy Issue in the Czech Lands"</b> that it will present in a month, Lidove noviny (LN) reported Wednesday.

The name evokes Nazi Germany and its final solution to the Jewish issue,<b> but the nationalists claim they do no want to kill Romanies, but that they want to buy land in India and to relocate Romanies there</b>, LN writes.

The team of the study authors is headed by party member Jiri Gaudin and party chairwoman Petra Edelmannova is also a member, according to party spokesman Pavel Sedlacek, LN writes.

<b>The team was allegedly assisted by a few experts from "the academy environment, " who, however, request anonymity</b>, LN writes.

Ivan Vesely, chairman of the Romany association Dzeno, told LN that Romanies <b>"have lived here for 500 years and we are still considered foreigners</b>."

Sedlacek told LN the study looks at the Romany issue in a "comprehensive way - where it originated and why no one has as yet solved it."

<b>He said the study concludes that repatriation is the sole possible solution after all other attempts to cope with the issue have failed.</b>

"It must be solved on an all-European basis, land must be bought in India and the people must be given the opportunity to live on their land and according to their own ideas," LN quotes from the study.

Sedlacek said the word "final" that is connected with the study does not mean that the party would like to exterminate the Romanies, but because the matter should at last be tackled.

Miroslav Mares, expert in extremism, told LN that he thinks the nationalists will fail in the elections.

"The Romany issue is not that strong. According to public opinion polls strong anti-Romany prejudices do exist in society, but (Miroslav) Sladek who based his election campaign on anti-Romany rhetoric in 1998, failed," Mares said.

Sladek was then chairman of the extreme right Association for the Republic-Republican Party of Czechoslovakia (SPR-RSC).

This story is from the Czech News Agency (ČTK).
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[G.Subramaniam]

<!--QuoteBegin-ramana+Dec 12 2007, 03:22 AM-->QUOTE(ramana @ Dec 12 2007, 03:22 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->If they were people escaping the Islamic invasions of the early 1000 A.D. they could have acquired their name from Rum ie Byzantium. OTH if they were westward migrating tribes of Dom that could be another explanation. Has any one studied the Dommari/Banjara tribals and the Roma people? What I find difficult is to associate them with Rajputs. They might even be from before the Islamic invasions. The descriptions of their theogony (Varuna etc) speaks of Vedic gods.
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I find something unbelievable

If people were escaping islam, they would migrate to south and east India
not into afghanistan-persia-turkey-europe

[Guest]

<b>Accounts of the Gypsies of India </b>

[HareKrishna]

<!--QuoteBegin-G.Subramaniam+Aug 1 2008, 06:26 PM-->QUOTE(G.Subramaniam @ Aug 1 2008, 06:26 PM)<!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-ramana+Dec 12 2007, 03:22 AM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(ramana @ Dec 12 2007, 03:22 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->If they were people escaping the Islamic invasions of the early 1000 A.D. they could have acquired their name from Rum ie Byzantium. OTH if they were westward migrating tribes of Dom that could be another explanation. Has any one studied the Dommari/Banjara tribals and the Roma people? What I find difficult is to associate them with Rajputs. They might even be from before the Islamic invasions. The descriptions of their theogony (Varuna etc) speaks of Vedic gods.
[right][snapback]76048[/snapback][/right]
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I find something unbelievable

If people were escaping islam, they would migrate to south and east India
not into afghanistan-persia-turkey-europe
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Because Roma have judaic,proto-christian and zoroastrian elements in their religion Abraham Sandor postulate that romas was initialy jews or proto-christians(like ebionites) ,came in contact whit parsis then enter in conflict whit hindu rajputs who throw them out .Romas then migrate in countries whit judaic or christian tradition.

[HareKrishna]

Im not a historian but i read about it.This site imninalu contains some errors like telling that gipsy are jews.This is not true ,both genetic and their aparence show them as being indians.Is more likely that they converted to judaism or proto-chritianism almost 2000 years ago as Sandor claim when he said that gipsy enter in conflict whit hindu rajputs and have no choise then exit India.

I was on jatla only to point out the conection betwin dakia-gets and the dahya and jats.I very unlikely that gipsy are jats(the evidence pointing for a more southern origin of gipsy ) but is posibile that gipsy was contaminated whit jats customs or even take some jats whit them when the migrate from central India to Punjab area.

Personaly i belive that dakia-gets migrate in Balkan area around 600 BC from Central asia and formed a bigger kingdom in 80BC under the lidership of king Burebista.

[HareKrishna]

Roma want to change its name to "indiromi" to not affect the image of Romania in the World





Roma representatives want the title "rrom" be replaced with the indirom, "not to affect Romania's image, because some crimes committed by Roma, following a decision to be taken at a conference in Strasbourg, the Dorin Cioaba said.


"We want to get rid of this denomination, rrom to no longer be accused by the Romanian authorities that make use of the name of the country. We want to be black sheep in November, let us just say that Roma are through misfortune abroad" , said correspondent NewsIn, Dorin Cioaba, son of Roma king Florin Cioaba.

He added that he was already established "Indirom Association, this proposal will be discussed at a conference in Strasbourg next week.

"We hope that the new association to join the organization, and later name of indirom be recognized in official documents. I chose this name because we draw from India and do not want to be made any connection with Romania or Rome, Dorin Cioaba said.

[HareKrishna]

This article should be moved here
"Using the word romani is an offence.The word romani was invented in order to create confusion betwin romanian and roma(on real name gipsy or tigan) and trashing down romanian image in front of the westerners.
There is a conspiracy to create a gipsy state in Europe(guess where) and the word romani is the first step.
Next step is gathering the european dalits in a single place and using high natality to replace the local population.
Also use acusations of racial discriminations whenever locals are trying the defend themselfs against gipsy violent gangs.

To counter this the next steps should be usefull
-A campaign against the word romani;replaced whit indi-roma or simply, indian.An alternative is the word egyptian for those gipsy ashamed for their indian(posibly dravidian) origin.
-A advice to all gipsies :change the bad-violent habbits not the name.

-Gathering all gipsy in a reservation and give acces to the rest of the country only for those gipsy who show social behaviour.
-Force gipsy to have few children in order to secure the locals-majority.
This drop in birth rate will also eradicate the poverty problem.Thousands of gipsy children are hungry because their parents cant afford to feed the 5-10 kids per family they have and send them to begging and develop anti-social paterns.
-Show the exemple of jat-rajputs who use bravery usualy for honor or justice not for stealing.
-Forming a army corp of 1000 men for rapid reaction against gipsy gangs.
-Forming local networks of voluntary in cells of 50-100 people who will inform the police and register on video any violent actions and also use as rapid deterence force against violent gipsy gangs.
-Buying a large field in India in order to repatriate them in their native country.

-For the bulk gipsies who share the habbits of middle easterners and fell at home whit them, a land in that region should also be bought and send them there in their element."