Vedic Astrology And Associated Studies

Bodhi · (This post was last modified: 02-19-2009, 05:14 PM by Bodhi.)

And on this:

"The topic I was led to was western scholarship on dating Hindu lit and consequently ordering Hindu history, and how it is used to silence Hindus."

OK. Then Kota Venkatachalam is still very relevant, although many have argued for and against his relative datings. It is a shame that many of his works are confined to telugu and not translated in other languages.

Husky · (This post was last modified: 02-19-2009, 05:51 PM by Husky.)

QUOTE(Bodhi @ Feb 19 2009, 05:06 PM)<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Husky @ Feb 19 2009, 04:59 PM)I'm not 5 anymore Bodhi.[right][snapback]94732[/snapback][/right]<!--emo& Big Grin

--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /> Aaah! Looks like we missed the birthday treat recently! Belated greetings!
[right][snapback]94734[/snapback][/right]</div>That's it! I wasn't angry before but I am now. Let me at him!

Some time later...
IF investigator: Baby Bodhi has been bitten.
(Looks all innocent) It wasn't me. (I'm surprised he wasn't eaten: I've heard others remark how he looks like a wandering snack. Right size for a mouthful too.)

IF: There are teeth marks on its arm.
Like I said, not me.

IF: canine teeth marks.
Shouldn't have been playing with dogs then.

IF: they match your tooth prints.
Okay. Here's the deal: I was sitting outside on the lawn, minding my own business - howling at the beautiful Chandran, as I do. And then this mini human comes wandering up from nowhere and shoves its arm into my jaws and yelps away in feigned distress. What can I do? By the way - write this down - it stepped on my tail and tugged at my ears. Book him on multiple counts of cruelty to defenseless animal.

IF: there are paw prints all the way from your home to Bodhi's house. But no human baby footprints in the opposite direction.
(Silence)
I want to see my lawyer. And call the SPCA, I've been framed.

Husky · (This post was last modified: 06-19-2009, 08:14 PM by Husky.)

QUOTE(Bodhi @ Feb 19 2009, 04:07 PM)[...] two separate approaches to studying the itihAsa-purANa-s.
[...]
One should understand that there is this time factor that changes all human things including the practices in religious realm.
[right][snapback]94731[/snapback][/right]Bodhi was talking about the Itihasas and Puranas not Vedas of course.

But still feel I need to state the obvious:
The Vedas, at least in TN and those parts of Karnataka I am familiar with and possibly other parts of greater Bharatam (in any case I've heard that the matter is the same in AP and Kerala), have been passed down unchanged not only in how they are performed and their recitation (like intonation) - the only things witzel seemed to want to admit to earlier - but also in understanding.
That is, the understanding these traditional Vadyars have of the Vedas is still exactly the same as what Hindus' ancestors had of the material since at least when this whole oral tradition started. Goes without saying that Talageri's (or Elst's, or for that matter Witzel et al's) interpretations of 'what the Vedas are actually saying' is only the modern understanding of what the Vedas 'must have meant' and what 'the ancients must have thought it meant' - it does not actually reflect what the ancient Hindus understood its contents as.

I may be misunderstanding, but I think this is what Dhu was discussing in his posts 83, 84 and 87 of the India/western Sociology, All about sociology - Deconstructing thread. And I imagine this is also what the following person commenting on VijayVaani's review of the latest from Talageri meant:
QUOTE(Husky @ Jan 5 2009, 03:22 AM)http://www.vijayvaani.com/FrmPublicDisplay...cle.aspx?id=322
Comments on
"Demolished once for all: Aryan Invasion Theory"
Virendra Parekh
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTEHas it ever occurred to anyone, including you, that this entire debate bypasses a whole community of people who are well versed in the vedas? Have you ever noticed any comment from scholars of the Kanchi Kamakoti Peetham, for example? Do you really think that the translations and treatises on the vedas in various Indian universities has any value whatsoever?Â
Â seadog4227Â
Â 04 Jan 2009Â
[right][snapback]92678[/snapback][/right]</div>If people want to learn to understand Hindus' past understanding of the Vedas, best to go to some remote village - say in TN or Karnataka or wherever you know they have passed it down in unbroken line and unmodified - and learn from them, rather than learn to understand it from a textbook.

The fact that Witzel offered a position to Talageri (see Wacky on Talageri) and that Talageri refused saying he was an unapologetic nationalist, had long made me think on the matter. The west approves of his work - the methods and class of conclusions he draws - because this modern style of interpretation denies and delegitimises the traditional (ancient) Hindu understanding of the Vedas. Because it enables: "You Vadyars got it all wrong. What it really means and how it is really meant to be interpreted is..."
The christowest never could stand the continued Hindu institution that handed down the Vedas unaltered and unsubverted. The only difference is that now Hindus are unknowingly carrying out the same. This is not to impute any ill-intention to Talageri. He sees only the nationalist cause: that of defending Bharatam against the AIT. But the side-effect of his interpretations (and the inevitably western method he is using to make them) in order to mount this defence, is to merely tell the masses of Hindus that the actual traditional Vadyars who have been keeping the real Vedic system alive for Hindus for thousands of years are 'deluded and plain wrong'. When Hindus start accepting this (modern interpretations as the 'original' Hindu Dharma, and devaluing and outright denying the validity of the actual original Hindu Dharma), it tells me that the subversion is completely invisible/undetectable and therefore lethal now.

Somewhere last year I wrote the following to Bodhi in a personal communication:
QUOTEit reminds me of how Max Mueller wrote to his wife:
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE'The translation of the Veda will hereafter tell to a great extent on the fate of India and on the growth of millions of souls in that country. It is the root of their religion, and to show them what the root is, I feel sure, is the only way of uprooting all that has sprung from it during the last 3,000 years.'You said the Vedas were the supreme authority of Sanatana Dharma, yet what authority remains to these books now that they are reduced to being regarded as merely histories - from this perspective, they've really become irrelevant as they happened ages ago with characters that could barely concern us now. [...] What really is the supreme authority it has then? There's been a changeover in what Hindus understand the Vedas as, and Hindus missed this change. Yet this switch in perception - why it started, how it started, who if anyone started it, what way of thinking/what new manner of reading and interpreting the Vedas caused this change of perception - is something very important. It will have/already has repercussions.</div>My view now is mostly unchanged from the above, though I wasn't able to find the appropriate words to express the ideas back then (still can't).

The above is what I think Dhu's post 86 and Acharya's post 81 with ref to Balagangadhara, Sociology thread are kind of discussing.

Bodhi · (This post was last modified: 02-20-2009, 12:52 PM by Bodhi.)

Husky:

QUOTEThat is, the understanding these traditional Vadyars have of the Vedas is still exactly the same as what Hindus' ancestors had of the material since at least when this whole oral tradition started. 

You mean the understanding and interpretation of the veda saMhitA-s, its meanings, and its ritual aspects have remained sanAtana, i.e. eternally unchanged within those who claim to be vedic Hindus?

But the textual data shows otherwise.

Look at even what the upaniShadas say about the veda-s and the rituals. Some early upaniShada-s interpret from the veda-s symbolic, deeper and hidden meanings of the rituals. (e.g. the ya~jna is meditation, and the altar is the heart) and deriving j~nAna kANDa as opposed to the karma-kANDa. parA vidyA as opposed to the aparA vidyA and so on.

Look at the commentators, one after the other after the other, from sha~Nkara to madhva, rAmAnuja to sAyana and even from dayAnanda to aurobindo -- are all of them deriving the same understanding from the veda-s? If so then where was the need of the multiple or even one commentary -- if understanding remained the same unaltered all the while?

That is talking only within Astika mata-s. Otherwise, even nAstika-s claim to be receivers of the veda! and give it entirely different meaning (to me, not much different from vedAntic interpretations).

You probably meant to limit your scope to within the smArata and shrauta gurukula-s. But even there between one traditional school to the other, you have different redactions and recensions of the saMhitA-s being preserved and transmitted.

So how is that you say that the understanding of the veda-s has remained unchanged? In fact it has got to be the other way round.

Rituals MIGHT remain unchanged, recitation and intonation might remain unchanged. But understanding is BOUND to change since it is an intellectual process of human life and result of many conditional and psychological variables.

Yes, the experience (not understanding) might remain unchanged, for SOME sAdhaka-s. understanding is an intellectual process, experience is a spiritual process.

Husky · (This post was last modified: 02-21-2009, 08:14 AM by Husky.)

In my previous post I had given some of the views of those who are not here to represent themselves (and who will never be here for various reasons). They are invisible people, like most of the rest of the body of Hindus. All this time I've been here, no one has represented their views, except to make assumptions about them. Their invisibility and a complete unfamiliarity with them has led to wrong assumptions like:
QUOTEFor the orthodox/religious student, the historicity of any thing does not matter. itihAsa-purANa is a source of religious inspiration and practice for him.There is a grave problem with this unavoidable silence and non-representation of all kinds of traditional Hindus. (Enforced, calculated or unavoidable invisibility of Natural Traditionalists facilitates programmed extinction.)

QUOTE(Bodhi @ Feb 20 2009, 09:40 AM)Husky:

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTEThat is, the understanding these traditional Vadyars have of the Vedas is still exactly the same as what Hindus' ancestors had of the material since at least when this whole oral tradition started. 

You mean the understanding and interpretation of the veda saMhitA-s, its meanings, and its ritual aspects have remained sanAtana, i.e. eternally unchanged within those who claim to be vedic Hindus?[right][snapback]94763[/snapback][/right]</div>In the above, I've bolded both your question and my answer and made the latter blue. The answer was already there in the quoteblock of mine which your reposted just above your question. It does not conceal any more than that which I've already stated outright.

But is it that you wanted me to answer for the traditional view of the Vadyars I speak of (and probably many others besides)? Then their answer - which I thought you were aware of - is "Yes".

ADDED:
QUOTE(Bodhi @ Feb 20 2009, 09:40 AM)within those who claim to be vedic Hindus?[right][snapback]94763[/snapback][/right]Not sure what Vedic Hindus means. The ones I spoke of are just Hindus. Vadyars are Hindus with traditional knowledge of the Vedas and Shastras. Some of them know a lot about the Puranas and the Agamas too. They are traditional Brahmana Hindus - Shastris and those who perform Homams, those who teach families the necessary initiation rites or perform these for them (like naming and first-day-of-learning ceremonies, and imparting families with the knowledge of the specifics of doing puja to a particular God's Moorthy if that God's puja was not yet in the family's ancestral tradition).

04-05-2009, 05:40 AM

BIRTH HOROSCOPE : A WINDOW INTO OUR KARMASQUOTEBecause, if any explanation about this is available, then it is given in chapter 2 to 5 of Bhagawat Geeta, where Bhagwan Sri Krishna explained to Arjun about - discrimination between Karma Yoga, Sankhya Yoga and Karma, Sanyas, Bhakti yoga etc, and told that Karma yoga is the most simple and feasible way to attain salvation, and to become one with God. Again he said that âas a calf recognizes his mother in a herd of cows, similarly the action performed in previous lives easily find the individual for auspicious or inauspicious karmas, and when the right time comes, confer the results on them accordingly. In short, we can take this intricate observance as "Karma Siddhanta."

..........

Have you ever made an effort to think that why you are born in a particular family? Why a man and a woman became your parents and why you got brother-sister? You got married; a stranger, a girl born and brought up in a distant family suddenly enters your life. You have children. Did you perform all this as a doer (Karta). Could you select your parents? Could you choose your brother-sister? You can say that you chose your wife yourself, but thereafter, could you select your children? You could know the sex of the fetus with the help of the modern equipments, but did you know that what kind of life this conceived life will have to endure. If you are a doer, you must have been aware of all this. But how helpless doers we are. We do behave in a very ostentatious way to be a doer, but how ignorant, how foolish and in such a unrestrained way. In other words the doer is someone else? Then who is that Doer? How can we know Him and recognize Him? Do we have any system?


Interesting article.

04-08-2009, 12:42 AM

Astrology fair starts
Chandigarh: The second day of âBhavishyavani â 2009â, organised by Pink Pearl events at Panchayat Bhawan here, kicked off with a lamp â lighting ceremony performed by acclaimed astrologist RK Kundra. During the day, hundreds of people thronged the stalls put up by renowned vaastu consultant and tarot card reader Shalini Gugnani and Astrologists Dr GS Bindra and SK Gupta.

05-03-2009, 07:42 AM

http://library.du.ac.in/dspace/handle/1/3742
Title: Vedic chronology and Vedanga Jyotisha: containing also chaldean and Indian Vedas and other miscellanious essays 
Authors: Tilak, Bal Gangadhar 
Keywords: India-History
Vedas
Issue Date: 30-Oct-2008
Description: 174
URI: http://library.du.ac.in/dspace/handle/1/3742
Appears in Collections: Books

Bharatvarsh2 · 04-22-2010, 02:16 AM

May be offensive to many of the Indian astrology followers but some things need to be said:

Quote:Astrology is very dangerous for the Indians (may be for others too).

It must be generally discouraged rather than encouraged along with a

host of other Indian practices commonly touted as the "spirtual

sciences" of India. It is also necessary to differentiate astrology

from religion. While I happen to be a scientist by profession I am not

speaking from the point of view of a rationalist, western atheist

(not inclusive of the Charvaka or Epicurian) or the humanist. A

proper religion is very important for people and unlike most

scientists believe that atheism, rationalism and humanism are about as

futile as monotheism.

Astrology should be prised out of its place in the people's hearts

along with other things like vastu, pyschoanalysis and the like. It

should be kept in mind that what Wendy Doniger, Jeff Kripal and

Caldwell teach in USA, is as crappy as what T.Vaidyanathan teaches in

India and needs to be disbanded from our environs, just as astrology

etc.

If the effects of astrology were about as harmless entertainment as

watching a cricket match on TV it is OK-

But astrology has a perverse effect on Indians in many ways: Given

that the majority of Indians follow the arranged marriage system

astrology really affects their mate choice in a serious way and

creates undue competition between males for females.

Astrology causes a certain sense of inaction and social inferiority:

E.g. When the astrologer says that you would not have kids, one may

alter ones behavior with disasterous effects.

Astrology keeps the our people under fear and ignorance and they fail

to appreciate the beauties of nature. A friend and I once organized a

star viewing sessions where in we were to acquaint people with the

night sky and show them sights through our telescopes. Fear was the

one word that characterized much of the elder generation vistors.

mothers were telling children not to look at Saturn lest the 'evil

eye' fall on them. Yet another middle aged gentleman asked if seeing a

non-naked comet would have a bad effect on him. Another asked what the

presence of Uranus in his rAshi meant? Many lost interest our

astronomical details because astrology was not talked about.

Astrology may make one feel worse unlike religion that makes you feel

good.

Finally there is nothing vedic in 'vedic astrology' simply a misuse of

the word vedic as in vedic astronomy. You do not see much belief in

astrology in the vedic literature.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/IndianCivi...ssage/5150

Above is from the mahApaNDita at mAnasataraMginNI.

**shamu** · 04-23-2010, 12:08 PM

Who is writing this propaganda against astrology?

Even Ronald Reagan used to follow astrology... <img src='http://www.india-forum.com/forums/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/laugh.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':lol:' />

Bharatvarsh2 · (This post was last modified: 04-23-2010, 06:29 PM by Bharatvarsh2.)

Above was from HH, thought that was clear when I mentioned mAnasataraMginNI.

And there is nothing "propagandastic" about it, it's a fact that you don't find much belief in predictive astrology in the Vedas. It's also a fact that a lot of it is just imported from the Greeks.

We had this discussion before on this forum before & HH was willing to debate if the gung ho astrology supporters could do the following:

"For debating/trashing a counter-point made in this regard I however place some pre-condition. The person should be able to read and cite in original saMskR^ita a wide range of early Hindu texts. These include: 1) aushanasa adbhutAni 2) gR^ihya sUtra-s of different vedic traditions 3) atharva veda parishiShTa-s 4) yavana jAtaka of sphujidhvaja 5) bR^ihat saMhitA. I would also place a pre-condition that the person should actually be able to perform *vedic* rites of the nakShtra and graha variety by himself or at least know *all* operational details of these rites. And the person should know some basic Indo-European linguistics."

Check back to post # 43 in this thread.

Ronald Reagan was a retard by the way who mouthed conservatism but actually left higher a deficit when he left the office & he was also largely responsible for chAchA sam's funding of the mujahadin, the precusor to today's Taliban.

"vedic" astrology is like "vedic" maths, not much that's vedic in either of them.

02-05-2012, 07:58 PM

[quote name='Bharatvarsh2' date='23 April 2010 - 06:36 PM' timestamp='1272027486' post='106055']

Above was from HH, thought that was clear when I mentioned mAnasataraMginNI.

And there is nothing "propagandastic" about it, it's a fact that you don't find much belief in predictive astrology in the Vedas. It's also a fact that a lot of it is just imported from the Greeks.

Quote:We had this discussion before on this forum before & HH was willing to debate if the gung ho astrology supporters could do the following:

"For debating/trashing a counter-point made in this regard I however place some pre-condition. The person should be able to read and cite in original saMskR^ita a wide range of early Hindu texts. These include: 1) aushanasa adbhutAni 2) gR^ihya sUtra-s of different vedic traditions 3) atharva veda parishiShTa-s 4) yavana jAtaka of sphujidhvaja 5) bR^ihat saMhitA. I would also place a pre-condition that the person should actually be able to perform *vedic* rites of the nakShtra and graha variety by himself or at least know *all* operational details of these rites. And the person should know some basic Indo-European linguistics."

Check back to post # 43 in this thread.

Ronald Reagan was a retard by the way who mouthed conservatism but actually left higher a deficit when he left the office & he was also largely responsible for chAchA sam's funding of the mujahadin, the precusor to today's Taliban.

"vedic" astrology is like "vedic" maths, not much that's vedic in either of them.

[/quote]

HH is very clever. He for all practical purpose excluded non-Brahmins practitioners from the debate. The very reason that Astrology is mumbo-jumbo.

Personally, the people that have provided me accurate analysis of my horoscope are the ones that do not have ancestral claim over astrology. The reasons are understandable.

BTW, whether astrology works or not, neither does depends on belief/disbelief of the skeptics nor does it matter whether it was imported or not.

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