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Godhra
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01-31-2005, 05:26 AM
Viren, Mudy,
A while back, one of you had posted something on the origins of PIPFPD, perhaps from the India Today - do you remember what I'm talking about - any references?
01-31-2005, 06:08 AM
Not terribly important but there is a link between the fodder-scam and godhra investigations..
http://ushome.rediff.com/news/2004/mar/05spec.htm <!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Two years after the Godhra carnage, the Gujarat police still do not know who the brains behind the plan to set the Sabarmati Express alight were. If you read the seven chargesheets filed so far by the police, you can understand how the incident took place. But why did it happen? Who planned it? Where? Answers to these questions are still being sought. Rakesh Asthana, special inspector general of police (Baroda range) and head of the team investigating the incident, told rediff.com, "We have international inputs provided by IB [the Intelligence Bureau] and RAW [the Research and Analysis Wing]. We have many telephone intercepts and strong indications suggesting the involvement of people across the border. But we don't yet have substantial evidence to prove our charge in court." <b>Asthana, who spent 10 years with the Central Bureau of Investigation and was also involved in the investigation of Bihar's fodder scandal, said of Godhra, "It was a very interesting and complicated case. We have been able to prove beyond doubt the local conspiracy charge. I am 100 percent�sure that the accused will be convicted."</b><!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
01-31-2005, 06:24 AM
Report filed by IE on Feb 28th 2002..
http://www.indianexpress.com/ie20020228/top4.html Rediff report on Feb 28th 2002.. http://www.rediff.com/news/2002/feb/27train1.htm a report filed by frontline on march 2003.. http://www.frontlineonnet.com/fl2006/stori...28003203700.htm Could this accident theory have its origin from this ?
01-31-2005, 07:44 AM
http://www.indiatoday.com/itoday/20020311/cover2.shtml
India Today <!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Horror On 9168 DN The burning to death of 57 Ram sevaks sparks religious hate across Gujarat and leads to the worst rioting the state has seen since the Babri Masjid fell By Uday Mahurkar In Godhra on February 27, it looked like Partition again. Charred bodies of 57 people, including 25 women and 14 children, lay in the burnt shell of the railway coach that had been carrying them back from a yagna at Ayodhya. They were families of Ram sevaks, supporters of the Vishwa Hindu Parishad which has promised to construct a Ram temple where once the Babri Masjid stood. The story of their killing has set aflame Gujarat. It had been a largely uneventful journey for passengers of the 9168 Dn Sabarmati Express. The train, carrying over 2,500 people, was on its way from Faizabad, near Ayodhya, to Ahmedabad in Gujarat. It was running four hours late when it pulled into Godhra railway station on the Gujarat-Madhya Pradesh border. Urmilaben Trivedi, a VHP leader who was on the train, says that as the tired Ram sevaks alighted for tea and snacks, a Muslim youth bumped into one of them (see graphic). One hour after this innocuous beginning, 57 people lay dead and the train had become a funeral pyre. The news spread like wildfire. Revenge attacks have since claimed over 100. In 26 major towns and talukas of Gujarat including Vadodara, Surat, Rajkot, Visnagar, Palanpur, Deesa and Khedbrahma, rioting and arson led to massive damage to property. Even faraway villages have not been left out of the spiral of violence. In Halad, a village in north Gujarat, bands of Hindus went on rampage when the body of a Ram sevak reached there. Hotels and businesses belonging to Muslims were attacked everywhere. Though curfew was imposed in most places and the police turned out in strength, it could not quell the violence. In Ahmedabad's Bapunagar, a township named after Mahatma Gandhi, two groups of over 2,000 each fought one another. Both were armed with swords, sticks and firearms. The casualty count is not known. A Hindu mob burnt to death Ehsaan Jafri, a former Congress MP, with his four-member family. He had reportedly called the police, but help came too late. The mood in the state is militant. A procession of 10,000 marched with the bodies of 11 people from Ramol village near Ahmedabad who had died in the train. They were shouting slogans like, "Tumhari shahidi bekar nahi jayegi, mandir bana kar hi rahenge (Your martyrdom will not go in vain, we shall make the temple)." Amid this, the question being asked most often is: was the attack planned? And if it was, by whom? An armed crowd of over 1,000 had participated in the attack on the Ram sevaks. Reports say one of them had an altercation with a Muslim man at Dahod railway station, 72 km from Godhra. The Sabarmati Express covered this distance in an hour. Was the time enough to mobilise so many people? Panchmahal district Superintendent of Police Raju Bhargav is keeping his options open. Godhra, the Panchmahal district headquarters, is his turf. He says he has "no information of any altercation at Dahod, but it cannot be ruled out". The whodunnit is more difficult to answer. Jehadi elements in India are suspects, and so, as always, is Pakistan's ISI. Defence Minister George Fernandes has said he doesn't rule out ISI involvement. The police, meanwhile, have rounded up almost 100 suspects. Alleged kingpins Salim Sheikh, 38, and Abdul Rahim Dhantia, 45, are among them. Both are independent municipal councillors from Godhra and are reportedly close to the Congress. Four others, including a prominent local politician, are absconding. Gujarat Chief Minister Narendra Modi, an RSS pracharak-turned-BJP politician, says, "The culprits of the gruesome incident will be brought to book, come what may." He is in a difficult situation. Though Modi had the army called into Ahmedabad, he said "the anger of five crore people of Gujarat is impossible to control everywhere with our limited police force. We have done our utmost to prevent violence from spreading". The police have been mute witness to some of the arson and looting. Reactions to the incident from the Congress, the main opposition party in the state, have been mixed. While former chief minister Amarsinh Chaudhary condemned the attack on the train he also blamed the Ram sevaks for provoking it. Senior AICC leader Ahmed Patel condemned it strongly. They will have time to react. The bloody cycle of violence so familiar in Gujarat may have just begun. <!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd--> http://www.indiatoday.com/itoday/2002031...-box.shtml
01-31-2005, 08:24 AM
Rajesh,
I think you're pretty close to a collection of materials necessary for a thorough rebuttal. Please drop me an email - I have some thoughts on this. arindam
01-31-2005, 09:36 AM
Arindam
Please check mail.. ..
01-31-2005, 09:39 AM
<!--QuoteBegin-rajesh_g+Jan 30 2005, 03:46 PM-->QUOTE(rajesh_g @ Jan 30 2005, 03:46 PM)<!--QuoteEBegin--> Also his other claim that forensic lab said there was no petrol is not true, IIRC. Somebody should follow that up. <!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Only Bawa (DSP GRP) has claimed that there was no hydrocarbon. The lab has always said that there was hydrocarbon. The only place where they differed with the investigation earlier was that while earlier investigation was concentrating on fire being set from outside the lab claimed that the fire was set from the inside near seat #72 (Is that near the end of bogey - i forget ). http://www.rediff.com/news/2002/aug/28inter2.htm http://www.rediff.com/news/2004/jul/07spec3.htm http://www.indianexpress.com/full_story....nt_id=8846
02-01-2005, 02:36 PM
http://www.gujaratsamachar.com/gsa/2002030...arat/news2.html
Translation of a story that appeared in Guj Samachar on 4th March 2002. Another eye witness account I found in gujarat samachar. Thought it might be helpful. My comments in quotes. <!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->13 year old godhra victim's statement : Attackers came in a tractor and a hawker pulled the chain. A witness to the heinous crime looks for his 3 year old brother, his mother has suffered 40% burns.. Ahmedabad Sunday People who attacked sabarmati express last wednesday arrived in 2 tractors, had first indulged in stone-throwing on the train carrying ram-sevaks, followed by acid-bulbs and lastly used petrol to burn the whole coach while attacking those who attempted to jump outside with sharp weapons like swords, dhariya and gupti. This eyewitness account was given by a 13 year old boy who is undergoing treatment at the burns ward in civil hospital. He cries when he tells us about this. He said that him, his father, his mother and his 3 year old brother (pitrai ? dont know what that word means) had gone to carry out his grandfathers final rites and were returning from faizabad. They didnt have anything to do with the RJB movement and neither were they ram-sevaks. Unfortunately their seats were reserved in the ill-fated bogey. GyanPrakash, an 8th standard student of Bharti School located in Amraiwadi area, is shocked and terrified with this incident. His father LakhanPrasad Chaurasia is on his deathbed with 90% burns and is living off of ventilator. Gyan Prakash cannot forget that terrible incident. He says that a tea-vendor hawker had entered our coach and had pulled the chain and where the train stopped there was a lot of stone-throwing going on. Our trains ramsevaks tried to go to the other side to respond to the stone-throwing after getting out from the other side of the platform but then stone-throwing started from the jhupadpatti (presumably on the other side of platform) forcing them to get back on the train. Rest of the passengers in the train's other coaches were helplessly watching this. Some of our co-passengers had mobiles and they were trying to get hold of other leaders, relatives and officials to get somebody to send the police to help us. The people who had arrived in the tractor were deadly and were not afraid at all of the police. At one instance they saw the police coming and immediately set the coach on fire - we did see about 15 policemen coming and so were hopeful of getting out of this but following this they started stone-throwing on the policemen and then on the fire-brigade officials and when the coach was burning they ran away. After this we were making our last ditch efforts to save ourselves. My mother had covered me with a blanket and we were holding to each other trying to escape at which point one window had suddenly broken which prompted my father collected some courage to jump outside. Me and my mother had lost all hopes, so my father took my 3 year old pitrai brother (dont know what pitrai is) and jumped near the tracks at which time he had almost passed out. Somebody grabbed my brother and ran away, at which point my mother also decided to jump along with me - after saying this the boy started crying uncontrollably and starts worrying about his father and asks the doctor when his chacha will arrive. The whole account is chilling. He gets lost in broken sentences and then remarks that the last coach had a marriage party (jaan in gujarati) where some loot was going on but he doesnt know what happened after that. His mother Janaki devi's condition is improving but his father is almost on his death bed. His parents are in different wards and he is the link of communication between the two - he has the permission to go in both wards. The boy who is communicating his parents' questions and answers cannot get the answer to his one question about his brother, as to where he is. The atmosphere gets pretty tragic in the room and before it gets any more tense people slowly get out of the room while this boy dumbfounded (shunyamanask bhave - means with zero thoughts ?) just keeps watching the main entrance of the ward waiting for his dear chacha - whether he is worrying about his lost brother or he is worrying about his father's wellbeing is hard to tell. While he had gone to attend his grandfather's last rites, fate has dealt a severe blow to this young lad, before he could even begin to feel the smashan vairagya (smashan=cremation ground, you all know what vairagya is).<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
02-01-2005, 07:06 PM
I haven't followed this fine discussion, but let me suggest that when two sides say two different things, there is often a third explanation which fits the facts (but not necessarily the conclusions) of both sides.
OK, we know: 1. The train stopped beyond the station. 2. The coach burned. 3. The coach was decoupled from rest of train (??) 4. Before the coarch was decoupled, there was a "vestibule" connecting the coach to bogies in front - IOW, free access to and from this coach from rest of train. 5. Lots of eyewitness accounts that SOMETHING inhibited people from jumping out of a stopped and burning coach. Now the other issues: 1. Why did the train stop? Answer is not "track was blocked with trees" like we see in Cowboy vs. Injun movies. It was " someone pulled the chain". OK< that meant that someone who wanted the train stopped was <b>INSIDE THE TRAIN - and not in the engine either. </b> 2. Why did the coach burn? Obviously because something very flammable caught fire, and<b>there was enough heat released to set other things on fire.</b> There are two conflicting explanations: a) fuel was thrown in from outside by the mob. b) the fuel was inside the train before the mob threw in burning stuff. The explanation is very simple: <b>WHOEVER PULLED THE CHAIN COULD HAVE BROUGHT THE FUEL ON BOARD AND LEFT IT THERE </b> Can open? Can open with a fuse burning? Those are minor details. No wonder the IMC and the Kangrej and the Rel Mantri wanted a new investigation. THEY PROBABLY KNEW that the person(s) who placed the fuel there and pulled the chain were not getting due credit in the sloppy investigation conducted by the railways. "Thrown in from outside" indeed _ and u think these morons could have done that without setting their own hair on fire - remember that guy in TSP setting fire to the American flag in Nov. 2001? <!--emo&:tv--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tv_feliz.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tv_feliz.gif' /><!--endemo-->
More on this: It may be quite true that there was no hydrocarbon - it MAY NOT HAVE BEEN PETROL that they brought on board.
A lot of other things react with moisture in air (or with oxygen) to produce the heat needed. Fluorine, Titanium tetrachloride... hydrogen.. Indian police do tend to leap to conclusions and fall into the poo-poo in between. I remember the case of 3 of my classmates who were caught staggering around in a daze at Parry's Corner in Chennai - during Prohibition. The Police charged them with being Intoxicated with Alcohol. Faked the breath tests, blood test etc. They got off scot-free, because the Institute's lawyers knew for sure that these guys had not a drop of alcohol in their system. They were zonked-out on drugs. What the Institute did to them after the Police released them was, of course, FAR WORSE. They ordered them to have their mothers come stay with them in the Institute's Guest Quarters- and accompany them WHEREVER they went on campus. Imagine that. <!--emo&:flush--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/Flush.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='Flush.gif' /><!--endemo-->
02-02-2005, 03:01 AM
02-02-2005, 03:06 AM
N3, Its possible. Tonite I am going to go through some more of gujju newspapers archive to see if i can find some other articles. Also I saw something the other day on a website. I think it was ektaonline or something - cant remember. But then my computer froze (its 7 yrs old 300Mhz m/c <!--emo&
 --><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif' /><!--endemo--> ) and i lost the link. I think Banerjee and Dunu have basically twisted that as the report. Let me see if i can find it..Meanwhile from the interview link above.. http://www.rediff.com/news/2002/aug/28inter2.htm <!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin--><i>Chief Minister Narendra Modi alleges that some Godhra accused have been getting five star food and other material support. Where is this coming from?</i> The accused are in a high-security jail, under government management. If they are getting food and other things from outside, what is the government doing? How can something go in without the consent of the government? <i>It is being claimed that large amounts of money from the Gulf have been coming in for the defence of the accused.</i> Absolutely wrong! Most of them are poor, and we are not charging them anything. Why don't you go see their homes, see how they live? <!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd--> I am wondering if we can find a link to the source of funding for the defence.
02-02-2005, 03:19 AM
Another old frontline report from 2002..
http://www.flonnet.com/fl1915/19150110.htm <!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Investigators have ruled out the possibility of the fire having been caused by an accident. "There was no fuel inside the train," said an investigating officer. He dismissed the possibility that kar sevaks carried fuel for cooking on their journey. Grain was also found inside the compartment, but the investigator said that it belonged to a family that was travelling to its village for a wedding.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd--> The investigators are FSL.
02-02-2005, 03:28 AM
http://www.thehindubusinessline.com/2004/0...72800071000.htm
One mention of "no traces of hydrocarbon" in this hindu report from Rasheeda Bhagat. But its confusing. <!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin--> Deposing recently before Justice G. T. Nanavati and Justice K. G. Shah, the two-member judicial commission probing the Godhra carnage, the <b>Assistant Director of the Ahmedabad-based Forensic Science Laboratory, Mr M. S. Dahiya,</b> said that when "re-enacting the scene of February 27 we found that it was not possible to pour the liquid from outside as the compartment was seven feet above the ground level". Responding to questions from Mr Justice Nanavati, he said no evidence of any acid was found and <b>a minimum 60 litres of combustible liquid would have been used to torch the coach.</b> Some Railway officials and passengers present at the scene testifying before the Nanavati Commission said they had not seen any Muslims enter S-6 during the fracas which erupted at Godhra station, leave alone pour more than 60 litres of petrol, as alleged by the Gujarat police. <b>And the forensic report says that the samples taken from S-6 contained no trace of petroleum hydrocarbons. </b><!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd--> Confusing.
02-02-2005, 03:41 AM
A report from islamonline.net in october 2002.. <!--emo&
 --><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/rolleyes.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='rolleyes.gif' /><!--endemo--> http://www.islamonline.net/English/News/20...article30.shtml <!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->By IOL South Asia Correspondent NEW DELHI, October 15 (IslamOnline) - More evidence has now emerged to show that the Gujarat anti-Muslim pogroms were preplanned. Indian daily Asian Age Tuesday, October 15, quoted leading social activist Shabnam Hashmi, that strikingly similar combustible chemicals, both heavy-to-medium petroleum distillates, were used to burn the S-6 coach of the Sabarmati Express at Godhra and later during the Naroda Patiya massacre. The train tragedy on February 27 this year was used by Hindu extremists to burn thousands of Muslims alive, loot and burn their houses, shops and factories and drive over a hundred thousand refugees to relief camps where some of them still live. The âriotsâ which continued unabated for the next two months, with official support, have still not fully died down. Every now and then there are fresh incidents of stabbing and burning of houses. Many refugees are still prevented from going back to their villages which now have been proclaimed âMuslim-free.â <b>Ms Hashmi, secretary of Safdar Hashmi Memorial Trust, made findings of California-based testing laboratory, Technical Support Services, public in Ahmedabad on Monday. All ignitable liquids were confirmed by gas chromatography and mass spectroscopy, according to the report.</b> Ms Hashmi demanded a Central Bureau of Investigation (CBI) inquiry into the Godhra train incident and post-Godhra riots, saying, âthere is a striking similarity between the analysis of the sample taken from S-6 coach of Sabarmati Express and Naroda Patiya.â <b>âBoth the samples tested showed trace levels of a heavy petroleum distillate consistent with diesel fuel or a fuel oil,â she emphasized.</b> <b>Ms Hashmi said she had collected samples from the two places and sent them to the California-based forensic agency, which in its report said âpetroleum distillatesâ were used in both the incidents. âThe findings definitely raise some questions,â she added.</b> Ms Hashmi stressed that perhaps the âofficialâ version that the S-6 coach had been set on fire as a pre-planned conspiracy by Muslim fundamentalists was cooked up. She added that the fact was further corroborated by reports in some national dailies that most of the karsevaks (Hindu volunteers) had safely reached their homes. Serious doubts were raised about the âMuslim conspiracyâ when an official report by Gujarat stateâs Forensic Science Laboratory indicated that the fire was ignited from inside the coach using 60 litres of petrol stored inside. <b>Ms Hashmi said she would courier a copy of the report from Technical Support Servicesâ chemical laboratory manager David J. Brien to the judicial commission probing the Godhra mayhem.</b><!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
02-02-2005, 04:01 AM
Just in case this picture tells us something. If anybody finds other pictures of S-6 with the connecting vestibule please post here. One problem is that bhartiya rel folks have lost the canvas that was cut. And I havent seen many photos that show the adjoining bogeys (S2 & S5 ?). So maybe pictures can lead to some clues.
<img src='http://in.yimg.com/xp/reuters_ids_new/20040902/4160921633.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image' />
02-02-2005, 04:26 AM
<img src='http://www.chitralekha.com/community/images/Godhara%20Net-4.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image' />
<img src='http://www.abhivyakti-hindi.org/parikrama/images/vt2.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image' /> <img src='http://www.milligazette.com/images2002/56riot_gujarat_godhra_train.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image' />
02-02-2005, 04:51 AM
We need photos *between* the coaches. The connectors between the coaches are important. According to reports the canvas was cut between S-7 and S-6. And people entered from there and poured petrol (?) and burned the coach. The problem is this - after a few days the canvas that was cut was replaced with a new one. The investigator said that he could see the burn marks on S-7 but the canvas was new as it didnt have any burn marks. The old canvas was presumably thrown away.
02-02-2005, 05:15 AM
Sheela Bhatt's report inRediff
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->The claim by Hazards Centre, a group of Delhi-based scientists, that 'the fire was most likely caused by an accident' cannot be taken seriously as it had no access to official records or evidence. It produced a well-argued, scientific theory and probability without considering the evidence. <!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd--> Rajesh - What I was going to write to you, has been essentially captured in N3's email. The point is - can we come up with a list of key questions which shed light on the Godhra "evidence" - we'll see people like Rasheeda Bhagat and Saba Naqvi Bhaumik step in to "show" that the evil yindoos set fire to themselves to make the Signal Falia thugs look bad. But, much of the "evidence" they point to is flawed and does not stand up to any logical reasoning. An example of this is the theory that "hazards Center" is an "independent body of experts who have thoroughly analysed the evidence" - two or three pointers like the above, adequately demonstrate why what the Hazards Center says cannot be taken into consideration. Issues like "there was no crowd there to stop people from getting out" - can also be similiarly disproved - again with appropriate URLs and hard logical reasoning. This issue of Godhra is going to become the focus of another round of ceaseless Hindoo bashing and possibly India bashing by "human rights" groups outside the country. Hence, yet another "factual response" becomes necessary - that is high on URL data and is logically structured. The first step is to enumerate the list of questions and issues we need to debunk or answer. Probably this forum is the best place to start listing such questions... thoughts, comments, etc???
02-02-2005, 05:42 AM
Arindam,
I think we can concentrate on the following ..
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