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Dalits - Real Issues & Discussion
#1
The political and semi-political parties (NGOs/NPOs/etc) with religious affiliations (fondly called secular in Bharat and consists of CommiePakis), and leanings - left and center, Red, Green & White, continue back tracking and betraying their promises.

These spawned movements can get no direct representation in any of the party structure, and their own leaders have failed them through and through. This constant and continous exploitation of these people - resulting only in a vote bank - has left them ill equipped to guide their own actions/destiny as well as in forming an alternative political front.

The so called reprensetatives have come with ingenious slogans and theories, spread by the activists of the new movements; yet no new alternative, no differently articulated version of social justice has as yet emerged as a political force. If anything the only issue that ever comes to the forefront is - pet agendas, petty grudges of the reformists and activists. Society as such as become hostage to their experimentation with discarded political and social theories of the west and elsewhere.

These instigated movements have constantly used dalits and other weaker sections of the society, to further divide the society. In doing so, these movements are eroding their victims' identity, culture, religion and distancing them from the very people they should be dealing with to solve their very real problems they face - socially, politically and on other fronts. In short the activists have tried everything under the sun, including instigating the said unfortunate Indians to violence and anti-national activities.

Now, Can we provide an alternative framework, where reformation, reconciliation and mutual understanding that will result in a strong, vibrant India - India that is for everyone.

We have one thread for "Caste/Religious Persecution" to highlight how propagandists and politicians use dalit issues and dalits as cannonfodder to further perpetuate a persecution complex.

We have another thread for "Caste/Religion based Reservation" to discuss the merits or lack there of such policies and impact.

This thread will raise the altitude to take stock of the situation - Big Picture - and discuss realistic solutions for reformation and reconciliation within a framework whose parameters are acceptable to everyone, and not just a single party in the mix and throw out the instigators and self-appointed reformers and revisionists.
  Reply
#2
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin--><b>Still untouchable: the politics of religious conversion. </b>
by Vatsala Vedantam

IN THEIR LONG struggle for equality, India's dalits, or "untouchables," have often exchanged their Hinduism for Islam, Christianity, Sikhism or Buddhism, believing that they will better their lives by doing so. <b>They have been persuaded that Hinduism, with its varna ashramas (caste distinctions), has been solely responsible for all their ills.</b> But when they switch to other religious faiths and experience the same distinctions--albeit in different forms--<b>they realize that such a change neither improves their social status nor remedies their economic problems of unemployment and poverty--the real source of their social discrimination. </b>

A letter written by M. Mary John, president of the Dalit Christian Liberation Movement, to Pope John Paul II during his 1999 visit to India speaks volumes about the <b>treatment meted out to dalit Christians within the churches of India</b>. <b>The dalits are oppressed and persecuted by "the hierarchy, the congregation, the authorities and the institutions of the Catholic Church."</b> Despite the condemnation of such practices by the Catholic Bishops Conference of India, casteism still persists among Christian communities. A state commission on dalits has pointed out that they are "twice discriminated against"--in society and within the church. At the time of conversion, they are assured that they are being inducted into a religious fold that is <b>egalitarian</b> and free from the twin curses of caste and untouchability. <b>But the reality is altogether different</b>.

<b>Sikh places of worship have separate quarters for dalit Sikhs. High-caste Muslims do not marry dalit Muslims. Dalit Christians can hardly hope to reach any high position within the church. (They are not even allowed to occupy the pews meant for higher-caste Christians.) And Buddhist monasteries have not been able to prevent their converts from continuing their earlier casteist practices. </b>

At the same time, in breaking away from Hinduism, <b>dalits lose out on the basic safeguards provided to them in the Indian Constitution. </b>In 1981, thousands of dalits in southern India converted to Islam to escape social victimization--only to <b>find that they had forfeited whatever state privileges they enjoyed earlier as Scheduled Caste Hindus.</b> Converted dalits are now fighting for these privileges, having perceived the age-old caste system still dogging their footsteps.

<b>The very fact that they still have to label themselves as "dalits" even after conversion in order to seek special privileges exposes the futility of that exercise. </b>Today, India's dalits are 82 per cent Hindu, 12 per cent Muslims and less than 3 per cent Christian.

A mass conversions of dalits to Buddhism in recent months in India poses the question once again whether religious conversion alone can improve the social and economic status of people who have been marginalized for centuries. Some 50,000 dalits assembled in New Delhi in November to embrace Buddhism. In January another 25,000 followed suit in the southern state of Kerala. <b>Such conversions expose the hypocrisy of the religious and political leaders who exploit the socially and economically backward groups for their own ends. </b>

In the November mass conversion, participants from both northern and southern states converged on India's capital city. They were led by Ram Raj, an official working for the Indian Revenue Service, who also heads the All India Confederation of Scheduled Caste/Schedule Tribes Organizations. Giving himself a new name and identity after his own conversion, he used the occasion to lash out at the Bharatiya Janata Party-led Government at the Center, claiming that it had denied opportunities to the dalits.

Subsequently, the converts recited the 22 vows taken by Baba Saheb Ambedkar, founder of the dalit movement in India, who in a similar exercise in 1956 had embraced Buddhism, along with half a million other dalits, "to escape the tyrannies" of Hindu society. Senior monk Buddha Priya initiated the new converts into the Buddhist fold. <b>Surprisingly, well-known Christian activists also participated in the conversion ceremony to provide "moral support" to the dalit movement. </b>Although no Christian literature was circulated, a Syrian Christian bishop who had traveled all the way to <b>New Delhi sat through the ceremony, offering to convert to Christianity anyone who desired it. </b>

DALITS SEEM to prefer Buddhism to other religions unless they are enticed with gifts or other allurements. The reason is that Ambedkar, who was also one of the main architects of the Indian Constitution, stated that of all religions only Buddhism advocates equality of all human beings as a fundamental principle. Declaring that Lord Buddha alone raised his voice against separatism, and that the religion he taught is the only one which does not recognize caste, the dalit leader exhorted his followers to convert to Buddhism<b>--"which is a religion of this country"--rather than Christianity, which enticed the poor and the oppressed "by giving them porridge free of cost." </b>

It has also been argued that Buddhists are accepted more easily in Indian society than other minority groups. Since Buddhism, like Jainism or Sikhism, is an Indic religion, it is not considered alien. <b>Christianity and Islam are both perceived by Hindus even today as the religions of the conquerors and invaders. </b>

"Dalit" literally means depressed. Mahatma Gandhi named these hapless citizens Harijans, meaning "the children of God." In the ancient and much abused system called varna ashrama, citizens were originally divided into castes based upon the professions they followed. Even during the days of British rule, manual workers in India's villages were placed in the lowest hierarchy of the caste system. It was only after independence in 1947 that the government instituted a policy of affirmative action, through its Constitution, to reduce these inequalities.
By reserving 23 percent of all central and state government jobs for Scheduled Castes and Tribes, with comparable reservations for school and university admissions across the country, India paved the way for improving dalits' professional and educational opportunities. They also have seats in legislatures, state assemblies and Parliament so as to allow them greater participation in the country's governance. <b>Conversion, unfortunately, only deprives the dalits of these special privileges, which are intended only for Hindu Scheduled Castes and Tribes.</b>

<b>The answer, then, is not in religious conversion so much as in streamlining the system of reservations itself. </b>While this system has gone a long way to better the economic status of India's 82 million Scheduled Castes and Tribes, it has lost its direction because it is not envisioned as a time-bound program. <b>The earlier beneficiaries and their progeny continue to enjoy its privileges even after half a century. These privileges are now passed on to the second and sometimes to the third generation. Families who have reaped the full benefits of the Indian government's reservation policies have already advanced in both social and economic terms. And they continue to corner desirable jobs and university or school admissions through the reserved quotas. </b>

Result: the poorest sections of the same reserved categories are denied their due. It is not uncommon, especially in rural India, to find poor and illiterate Scheduled Caste workers serving as the bonded laborers of their rich and influential kinsmen.
<b>An insidious caste system has thus crept into dalit circles as well. Privileged members of the community do not marry those doing menial jobs, since they consider them inferior.</b>

A few years ago, the Indian government reduced the opportunities of dalits further by extending reservations to other backward castes. And lately the government in New Delhi has extended reservations in promotions to those who have already benefited by its policies. Consequently, almost every caste is seeking the "backward" tag to claim a piece of the pie.

<b>No wonder this poorest and most backward segment of India's population is constantly exploited: by politicians for their votes; by religious leaders for their numbers; by their self-styled advocates for power. Despite much touted policies of compulsory primary education, there are no proper school facilities for dalit children. Family planning and other health-care programs rarely reach dalit women. Illiterate, impoverished and vulnerable, the Scheduled Castes cannot even reach the jobs that are earmarked for them because they are not qualified. </b>

<b>These crucial issues are completely ignored by their champions, who prefer to harp on caste discrimination and religious conversion rather than take the real measures that might improve dalits' lives. </b>

Vatsala Vedantam is a former associate editor of the Deccan Herald in Bangalore, India. <!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
  Reply
#3
This is not the right thread for this post, as it not politics but a Hindu issue. So please move it as you see fit.


Our forefathers made greivous mistakes for which a whole nation pays dearly. Can we heal? Can we simply all say that we were wrong. Our priests were wrong. Some shastras were wrong. Very, very wrong! Gandhi did not fast against this abomination.

We partitioned the dalits from us. Then Jinnah partitioned the muslims from the Hindus. Then the athiests and communists partitioned themselves from the remaining community, - leaving Hindus who can barely muster 28% of the votes. Hindus are already a minority in India.

Pride, prejudices, shastras and ignorance prevented reconciliation much sooner. Can we adopt the entire 180 million dalits as our own children, brothers and sisters?



REGRET, APOLOGY, REPENTENCE, ATONEMENT AND RECONCIALTION

<b>75 yrs later, temple priest wants to tell Ambedkar: Sorry, we threw you out</b>

Thursday March 3 2005 01:01 IST

NASHIK: As head priest of the historic Kala Ram temple here, Sudhir
Pujari has taken a decision that appears generous at first glance:
he'll adopt 25 Dalit children and 25 tribals on behalf of the
Janasthan Peeth of Nirwani Akhada.

It's actually an act of atonement that comes 75 years too late. At 3
pm on March 2, 1930, at this very temple, some 15,000 Dalits had
gathered for a darshan of the famous black idols of Lord Ram, Sita
and Laxman.

The first batch of 125 men and 25 women divided themselves into four
groups and stood outside the temple's four doors, waiting to be let
in. The priest of the temple turned them away saying they
were "untouchables". This led to a satyagraha and a five-year
agitation led by Dr B R, Ambedkar, during which he decided to
abandon Hinduism.

Ramdasbuwa Pujari, the priest who spurned the Dalits, was Sudhir
Pujari's grandfather. Today, the grandson wishes things had turned
out differently. "I think it was a big mistake on the part of my
grandfather,"
he told this website's newspaper. Then, with the
benefit of hindsight, he added: "Had I been in his place I would
have thought judiciously and permitted entry to all, irrespective of
caste."

Sudhir, who was appointed Mahant by the Nirvani Akhada during the
last Kumbh Mela, belongs to the 27th generation of priests
conducting rituals at the temple. <b>In his own way, he is trying to
undo some of the damage that his grandfather caused.</b>

Adopting the 50 Dalit and tribal children on behalf of the Janasthan
Peeth, of which he is the Mahant, is one step in this direction. He
said the Peeth would take responsibility for bringing up the
children and educating them properly. "You may consider this as a
malampatti (dressing of wound) by a grandson on wounds inflicted by
his grandfather," he says.


The Kala Ram temple entry satyagraha proved to be a turning point in
Ambedkar's life and Dalit politics. In 1935 Ambedkar announced that
though he had been born a Hindu, he would not die a Hindu. And even
though the temple was thrown open for Dalits by law later,
Ambedkar's mind was already made up and he converted to Buddhism in
1956.

Three years back, Sudhir Pujari pushed a proposal to erect a plaque
in front of the temple to acknowledge Ambedkar's satyagraha. That
move has been lost in red tape.

Meanwhile, he counts the cost of his grandfather's decision. <b>"Had my
grandfather permitted entry to the Dalits, perhaps Ambedkar would
have stayed in the Hindu fold," he reflects.</b>

But he cannot turn the clock back. So he continues his own form of
atonement.


http://www.newindpress.com/Newsitems.aspID...=States&Topic=0


A Mahant's Message
Thursday March 3, 2005

MAHANT Sudhir Pujari, the grandson of Ramdasbuwa Pujari of Kala Ram temple
at Panchavati in Maharashtra, <b>has made a forthright statement that his
grandfather had committed a "big social mistake" by not allowing Dr B R
Ambedkar and his associates to enter the temple for darshan of the deity. It
was after this incident of March 2, 1930 that Dr Ambedkar felt compelled to
renounce Hinduism and convert himself to Buddhism.</b> On that day Dr Ambedkar
along with about 15,000 Dalits marched to the 212-year-old temple to protest
against upper caste exploitation and discrimination. Had he and his
associates been allowed them to perform the darshan, the socio-political
scene today might have been entirely different. This denial proved to be a
turning point in Dr Ambedkar's life and Dalit politics in the country. It
was after five years of this incident that Dr Ambedkar convened a meeting of
the Dalits and said that though he was born a Hindu, he would not die a
Hindu. Mahant Sudhir says, "If my grandfather had permitted entry to Dalits,
Dr Ambedkar would have stayed in the Hindu fold, and there would not have
been a division of Hindus."


What is most interesting is that Dr Ambedkar's associate, Dadasaheb Gaikwad,
who marched with him to Kala Ram temple, was a close friend of Mahant
Ramdasbuwa. What was more the Mahant had even financed him to contest
election. This revelation of Mahant Sudhir is quite interesting as it makes
it clear that it was not merely the issue of being untouchables that was the
stumbling block in allowing them to enter into the temple. Obviously it
implies that there were other social factors and forces which were
responsible for it. Unfortunately even after seventy-five years of the
incident no sincere effort has been made to totally change the background
under which the Mahant had to take this action. Instead of any attempt to
assimilate this section into the mainstream, the political leaders have been
working to widen the chasm and putting one against each other.

The Dalit population is around 18 crore in a population that has now crossed
the 100-crore mark. While at the public level the Dalits are accepted as a
part of Hindu community, they have been in reality treated with hostility
and repression, and have been the target of calculated attacks from the
other castes. In fact they have become a soft target, and this has been
happening in spite of resurgence of Dalit movement. The issue of conversion
has also acquired a broader dimension; they have virtually acquired the
character of a product in the political market. What is very disturbing is
that governments in the states appear to have surrendered their political
will to stand by them and to stop their exploitation and check their
alienation. A Human Rights Watch report underlines that the " Dalits live a
precarious existence, shunned by much of society because of their rank as
'untouchables' at the bottom of the caste system. They are discriminated
against, denied access to land, forced to work in degrading conditions, and
routinely abused at the hands or the police and of higher-caste groups that
enjoy the State's protection".

The upper-lower caste divide was there in pre-British period. However, it
cannot be denied that the divide-and-rule tactic of British colonialism made
us believe that Indians were merely a disparate conglomeration of human
tribes loosely held together. But unfortunately the Hindutva movement -
primarily launched as a counter-movement to this splintering of India, and
seeking to provide a broad basic foundation on which a consolidated and
mighty Hindu Nation could stand-became an instrument to alienate the weaker
sections of the society from the mainstream. <b>An analysis of the agenda of
Hindu nationalism in the historical perspective will reveal that the Dalits
are perceived to present a threat to the nationalist agenda.</b>

It is really heartening to note that Mahant Sudhir Pujari has initiated a
process to undo the 75-year-old mistake and has decided to adopt 25 Dalit
students on behalf of Janasthan Peeth. He would also bring up 50 children
and educate them properly. Though very belated, at least Mahant Sudhir has
made a beginning and this should be an eye-opener and also an example for
others. It is unfortunate that even today the discrimination against the
Dalits is rampant, notwithstanding a number of legislations protecting their
rights and providing for penalties. It has been proven time and again that
mere laws are not enough for social, political and economic empowerment of
the Dalits. What is needed is a strong social movement to create a
discrimination-free society. This is the message that Mahant Sudhir has sent
forward on behalf of his erring grandfather.

http://www.navhindtimes.com/stories.php?pa...&Story_ID=03034
  Reply
#4
<!--QuoteBegin-Pathmarajah+Mar 10 2005, 01:18 PM-->QUOTE(Pathmarajah @ Mar 10 2005, 01:18 PM)<!--QuoteEBegin--> This is not the right thread for this post, as it not politics but a Hindu issue. So please move it as you see fit.


<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Pathma,

This is the right thread. Any "Real" problem and solution space will be discussed here.
  Reply
#5
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Can we adopt the entire 180 million dalits as our own children, brothers and sisters?<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

i didn't know that it was so much...this is serious...and i am also concerned about the hindu population in India...is it true that the muslim population grows faster then the hindu population in India?
  Reply
#6
<!--QuoteBegin-Ya$h+Mar 11 2005, 04:15 AM-->QUOTE(Ya$h @ Mar 11 2005, 04:15 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Can we adopt the entire 180 million dalits as our own children, brothers and sisters?<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

i didn't know that it was so much...this is serious...and i am also concerned about the hindu population in India...is it true that the muslim population grows faster then the hindu population in India? <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Virus breeds faster than you can imagine.
  Reply
#7
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Can we adopt the entire 180 million dalits as our own children, brothers and sisters?<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

This is at the core of 'leaders' like these. All these 'reformers' and 'leaders' are mostly non-dalits. They are mostly upper-castes. Their formula is to make themselves indispensible to dalits, ask dalits to kiss their behinds so they can make themselves feel good. Reminds me of angrezi hukumat really. They want to constantly remind dalits -> see u guys lack janois onlee, see ? and WE all know without janois u r all dead in the water yanyways dude, u know ? whats more WE (ahem !! WE) the white-robed 'reformers' will 'save' you by giving u one thing u (should) most covet - the janois that is yaar ! O and in case u thought u r going to be equals - nah WE (what u didnt hear ? ok WE) the uber-reformers are really like ur parents onlee (hint: we got janois u dont <!--emo&Tongue--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tongue.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tongue.gif' /><!--endemo-->) - so bachchaa log bajao tali -> <!--emo&:clapping--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/clap.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='clap.gif' /><!--endemo-->
  Reply
#8
<!--QuoteBegin-Ya$h+Mar 11 2005, 04:15 AM-->QUOTE(Ya$h @ Mar 11 2005, 04:15 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Can we adopt the entire 180 million dalits as our own children, brothers and sisters?<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It would be interesting to see how Dalits' lives and quality of life improved after so many NGOs/NPOs/TreeHuggers/Goody-2-shoes/ started their "spread hatred" campaign. They are too quick to show any "abuse" with dazzling stats., but they never show how much the movements made a change, in similar dazzling powerpoint presentations, do they? Why? Cos there is no moolah there and there is no time to rewrite all the proposals and campaign materials, and phoren trips... <!--emo&Big Grin--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo-->
  Reply
#9
Sorry I keep forgetting to put this post here. This post was originally made in "Colonial History of India" by Pathmarajah on Mar 8th. I put the post in queue and forgot about it. Here goes..

--------------------------------------------------------------------

<b>CONFESSION, REPENTENCE, BELATED APOLOGY AND ATONEMENT</b>

In 1930 there was a Partition of Hindus and Dalits, (a community even larger than muslims then) which books have forgotten. We reiterated our disawowal of 15% of our people from the Hindu Sangha. Learning important lessons, not lost on brilliant Jinnah who realised what was in store for a Hindu majority state, there was another Partition - that of Hindus and Muslims in 1947 - both partitions a result of an act of omission and disrespect for their concerns, by the mainstream Hindus and politicians. Gandhi did not fast in 1930, against this abomination! The lessons were on lost on Ambedkar too, he led others, and became a buddhist in 1956, long after India instituted anti caste laws. <b>Jinnah and Ambedkar knew that there was no room for reconciliation.</b>

Today these partitions have tolled a terrible price (crimes against dalits accounts for more deaths than in all Indo-Pak wars - we kill 3 dalits for every Paki killed!) in the subcontinent, held the nation down for 40 years, and led to the exodus of Indians to athiest, communist and secular political parties, resulting in fractured caste politics that does not seem to go away, and a single governing factor that holds back a great nation from becoming a true superpower.

We did not just lose the dalits in 1930, we lost a majority of Hindus to the Detractors in the following decades. The First Wave Exodus began in 1930, the Second Wave in 1947, then the 3rd Wave in the 60s led by the athiests in TN and communists in West Bengal. <b>Hindus are a minority today in India barely accounting for 28% of popular votes. They just dont realise it!</b>

We just dont know reconciliation - it is not taught in our scriptures. And the clock cannot be turned back. We erred. Greviously. And generations of Hindus pay the price for the mistakes of unconscionable morons.

Today, there is an apology, regret, atonement, admission of errors of our ancestors - all these an indication of the resurgence of conscience in the Hindu Psyche. We disown the errors of our grandparents. Commendable. But still, not surprisingly, these issues are lost on the media as well as most Hindu forums on the net. There is not a ruffle amoung brahims or dalits. Who really cares! Answer: - nobody!

After a long while, I too have begun to think that there is no room for coexistence between these two groups, and these attempts to coexist in the last 55 years is what is holding back India.

Regards.

Pathma


<b>75 yrs later, temple priest wants to tell Ambedkar: Sorry, we threw you out.</b>

http://www.newindpress.com/Newsitems.aspID...=States&Topic=0


Thursday March 3 2005 01:01 IST

NASHIK: As head priest of the historic Kala Ram temple here, Sudhir
Pujari has taken a decision that appears generous at first glance:
he'll adopt 25 Dalit children and 25 tribals on behalf of the
Janasthan Peeth of Nirwani Akhada.

It's actually an act of atonement that comes 75 years too late. At 3
pm on March 2, 1930, at this very temple, some 15,000 Dalits had
gathered for a darshan of the famous black idols of Lord Ram, Sita
and Laxman.

The first batch of 125 men and 25 women divided themselves into four
groups and stood outside the temple's four doors, waiting to be let
in. The priest of the temple turned them away saying they
were "untouchables". This led to a satyagraha and a five-year
agitation led by Dr B R, Ambedkar, during which he decided to
abandon Hinduism.

Ramdasbuwa Pujari, the priest who spurned the Dalits, was Sudhir
Pujari's grandfather. Today, the grandson wishes things had turned
out differently. "I think it was a big mistake on the part of my
grandfather,"
he told this website's newspaper. Then, with the
benefit of hindsight, he added: "Had I been in his place I would
have thought judiciously and permitted entry to all, irrespective of
caste."

Sudhir, who was appointed Mahant by the Nirvani Akhada during the
last Kumbh Mela, belongs to the 27th generation of priests
conducting rituals at the temple. In his own way, he is trying to
undo some of the damage that his grandfather caused.


Adopting the 50 Dalit and tribal children on behalf of the Janasthan
Peeth, of which he is the Mahant, is one step in this direction. He
said the Peeth would take responsibility for bringing up the
children and educating them properly. <b>"You may consider this as a
malampatti (dressing of wound) by a grandson on wounds inflicted by
his grandfather," he says.</b>

The Kala Ram temple entry satyagraha proved to be a turning point in
Ambedkar's life and Dalit politics. In 1935 Ambedkar announced that
though he had been born a Hindu, he would not die a Hindu. And even
though the temple was thrown open for Dalits by law later,
Ambedkar's mind was already made up and he converted to Buddhism in
1956.

Three years back, Sudhir Pujari pushed a proposal to erect a plaque
in front of the temple to acknowledge Ambedkar's satyagraha. That
move has been lost in red tape.

Meanwhile, he counts the cost of his grandfather's decision. "Had my
grandfather permitted entry to the Dalits, perhaps Ambedkar would
have stayed in the Hindu fold," he reflects.

But he cannot turn the clock back. So he continues his own form of
atonement.

end




<b>A Mahant's Message</b>
Thursday March 3, 2005

http://www.navhindtimes.com/stories.php?pa...&Story_ID=03034


MAHANT Sudhir Pujari, the grandson of Ramdasbuwa Pujari of Kala Ram temple
at Panchavati in Maharashtra, has made a forthright statement that his
grandfather had committed a "big social mistake" by not allowing Dr B R
Ambedkar and his associates to enter the temple for darshan of the deity. It
was after this incident of March 2, 1930 that Dr Ambedkar felt compelled to
renounce Hinduism and convert himself to Buddhism. On that day Dr Ambedkar
along with about 15,000 Dalits marched to the 212-year-old temple to protest
against upper caste exploitation and discrimination. Had he and his
associates been allowed them to perform the darshan, the socio-political
scene today might have been entirely different. This denial proved to be a
turning point in Dr Ambedkar's life and Dalit politics in the country. It
was after five years of this incident that Dr Ambedkar convened a meeting of
the Dalits and said that though he was born a Hindu, he would not die a
Hindu. Mahant Sudhir says, <b>"If my grandfather had permitted entry to Dalits,
Dr Ambedkar would have stayed in the Hindu fold, and there would not have
been a division of Hindus."</b>

What is most interesting is that Dr Ambedkar's associate, Dadasaheb Gaikwad,
who marched with him to Kala Ram temple, was a close friend of Mahant
Ramdasbuwa. What was more the Mahant had even financed him to contest
election. This revelation of Mahant Sudhir is quite interesting as it makes
it clear that it was not merely the issue of being untouchables that was the
stumbling block in allowing them to enter into the temple. Obviously it
implies that there were other social factors and forces which were
responsible for it. Unfortunately even after seventy-five years of the
incident no sincere effort has been made to totally change the background
under which the Mahant had to take this action. Instead of any attempt to
assimilate this section into the mainstream, the political leaders have been
working to widen the chasm and putting one against each other.

The Dalit population is around 18 crore in a population that has now crossed
the 100-crore mark. While at the public level the Dalits are accepted as a
part of Hindu community, they have been in reality treated with hostility
and repression, and have been the target of calculated attacks from the
other castes. In fact they have become a soft target, and this has been
happening in spite of resurgence of Dalit movement. The issue of conversion
has also acquired a broader dimension; they have virtually acquired the
character of a product in the political market. What is very disturbing is
that governments in the states appear to have surrendered their political
will to stand by them and to stop their exploitation and check their
alienation. A Human Rights Watch report underlines that the " Dalits live a
precarious existence, shunned by much of society because of their rank as
'untouchables' at the bottom of the caste system. They are discriminated
against, denied access to land, forced to work in degrading conditions, and
routinely abused at the hands or the police and of higher-caste groups that
enjoy the State's protection".

The upper-lower caste divide was there in pre-British period. However, it
cannot be denied that the divide-and-rule tactic of British colonialism made
us believe that Indians were merely a disparate conglomeration of human
tribes loosely held together. [u]But unfortunately the Hindutva movement -
primarily launched as a counter-movement to this splintering of India, and
seeking to provide a broad basic foundation on which a consolidated and
mighty Hindu Nation could stand-became an instrument to alienate the weaker
sections of the society from the mainstream.[u] <b>An analysis of the agenda of
Hindu nationalism in the historical perspective will reveal that the Dalits
are perceived to present a threat to the nationalist agenda.</b>

It is really heartening to note that Mahant Sudhir Pujari has initiated a
process to undo the 75-year-old mistake and has decided to adopt 25 Dalit
students on behalf of Janasthan Peeth. He would also bring up 50 children
and educate them properly. Though very belated, at least Mahant Sudhir has
made a beginning and this should be an eye-opener and also an example for
others. It is unfortunate that even today the discrimination against the
Dalits is rampant, notwithstanding a number of legislations protecting their
rights and providing for penalties. It has been proven time and again that
mere laws are not enough for social, political and economic empowerment of
the Dalits. What is needed is a strong social movement to create a
discrimination-free society. This is the message that Mahant Sudhir has sent
forward on behalf of <b>his erring grandfather.</b>
  Reply
#10
Foll points stood out from Pathma's writeup
  • <i>In 1930 there was a Partition of Hindus and Dalits</i>
  • <i>we kill 3 dalits for every Paki killed!</i>
  • <i>We just dont know reconciliation - it is not taught in our scriptures</i>
  • <i>there is no room for coexistence between these two groups</i>
Pathma please provide the stats, facts and figures to support these claims.
  Reply
#11
We just dont know reconciliation - it is not taught in our scriptures

---

Hmm just the sort of thing that Arun Gandhi and his white xtian masters will say

---

As far as BJP there is a recent set of election statistics from EPW, a commie weekly
I will dig it up and post it

Basically there is a linear fall in BJP vote as one goes from Brahmins to Dalits
About 70% of brahmins and 50% of OBC and 30% of Dalits vote for NDA

The recent Jharkand CM, Arjun Munda is a BJP tribal, uplfited by vanvasi kalyan ashram. The previous Jharkand CM, Babulal Marandi was also a BJP tribal
The head of RSS Jharkand is Karia Munda, another BJP tribal
( Hint donate to VKA heavily )

The only section of society where UPA does better is Dalits and this is changing
Congress used to get 90% of the Dalit vote

EPW also find as economic situation improves, those Dalits vote NDA

The biggest killers of Dalits are OBC castes all over India
And these OBC castes have no hesitation in lynching anyone who comes in their way. Muslim landlords also kill Dalits but these are hidden under communal riots
  Reply
#12
<!--QuoteBegin-rajesh_g+Mar 15 2005, 09:29 PM-->QUOTE(rajesh_g @ Mar 15 2005, 09:29 PM)<!--QuoteEBegin--> [*] <i>In 1930 there was a Partition of Hindus and Dalits</i>
[*] <i>we kill 3 dalits for every Paki killed!</i>
[*] <i>We just dont know reconciliation - it is not taught in our scriptures</i>
[*] <i>there is no room for coexistence between these two groups</i>
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
1. It is clear from the article that it was not just Ambedkar that was turned away from the temple; rather Hindus reiterated positively in this modern age that dalits are not part of the Hindu religion, and are not wanted. It was a turning away and a slap in the face to a whole community. I think we can imagine how they would have felt. This was a modern day partition of the Hindus and dalits. And no Hindu leader; Gandhi, Nehru, Sawarkar, etc., stood up against this abomination.

We divided ourselves from the dalits, and within 17 years the muslims divided themselves from us. Then, aghast Hindus divided themselves into secularists, athiests and communits. Then we divided Pakistan into two. See the karmic effect? We have no history of reconciliation in the 20th century.

2. I posted some months ago statistics on Crimes Against Dalits (which was trashed), where it showed that there were a quarter million such crimes in a 10 year period; of which about 12% resulted in murders. In a single year there were 8,000 such murders, while in the 1971 war we lost about 7,000 men and the Pakis somewhat more. We have no wars against Pakis now, yet each year dalits are being murdered. This is an unspoken ongoing war against dalits.

3 & 4. Glad you caught this, which must be challenged, and that is why it was put there. My comments were, I do not know of reconcilation in the shastras between large groups of communities, although there are several cases of individual acts. Hostile coexistence was there, eg Hindus and muslims. But I could be wrong as the shastras are voluminous, and perhaps someone could point out to me of actual incidences where whole groups of communities reconciled and lived in mutual harmonious and respectul coexistence. I am willing to stand down.

Because they could not coexist harmoniously did this give rise to caste groups. The way I see it it was usually degradation and erosion by attrition - whether Pandavas and Kauravas, Ayodhya and Sri Lanka, Brahma, Siva and Vishnu, Tamil and Sanskrit, Buddhism and Jainism, Vedas and Agamas, vedic homa worship and temple murthi worship, etc. However it is understood that attrition is the natural order of atrophy.
  Reply
#13
Regarding Savarkar
He started caste reform in 1928
His main follower was Dhananjay Kheer, a Dalit

Ambedkar was on excellent terms with Savarkar

Savarkar realised that internal reform in hinduism will be too slow
and he and Ambedkar decided on mass conversion to Sikhism
as opposed to islam or xtianity

But then, Ambedkar had some problems with the sikhs and Ambedkar decided to go into Buddhism
  Reply
#14
Pathma,

On your points,

1. It's still not clear as who's the author of that article, re-reading this thread it appears you are referencing your own prior post, what am I overlooking. Also I hope you dig a little deeper into the actual work done by the likes of Savarkar, Nehru & Gandhi in terms of working with oppressed class.
Installing figure-head in some temple just because he's a xyz or putthing a thread around someone is not the answer, atleast IMHO.

2. There's a quote: "Statistics is like a bikini which can reveal a lot but hide the vital parts". One can very easily point to number of deaths (which could be greater than 8000/year if not close) due to second hand smoke and blame those smokers or absence of statuotry surgeon general's warning in ancient scriptures for this.

If there's a "war going on against Dalits", get the state and federal machinery to impose/implement/enforce the law of the land. Politicians like say Jayalalitha per your own words - "(Jayalalitha) can do no wrong in enforcing law" right?

Maybe you NS guys should start directing your ire towards those incompetent politicans.
  Reply
#15
Pathmarajah,

Let me address each of your points as time permits. I dont think your points in #3 and #4 deserves any rebuttal. I will just give you one example -> hindus and sikhs and be done with it.
  Reply
#16
Pathmarajah,

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->2. I posted some months ago statistics on Crimes Against Dalits (which was trashed), where it showed that there were a quarter million such crimes in a 10 year period; of which about 12% resulted in murders. In a single year there were 8,000 such murders, while in the 1971 war we lost about 7,000 men and the Pakis somewhat more. We have no wars against Pakis now, yet each year dalits are being murdered. This is an unspoken ongoing war against dalits.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

I dont remember - you can post that link again if you still have it. If it was posted in the hindu-law thread then its on the blogspot archive. You can look for it there.

Having said that let me post another statistic here and you can tell me what it means.

http://ncrb.nic.in/statipccomparison.htm

To me it looks like 1.77 million crimes in a YEAR (37 thousand murders) . that would mean 17.7 million in a DECADE by simple multiplication (also 370,000 murders). Out of those crimes you are saying qtr of million crimes against dalits (12% of qtr mill = 30K ?) constitutes a "unspoken ongoing war against dalits" ?
  Reply
#17
Pathmarajah

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->1. It is clear from the article that it was not just Ambedkar that was turned away from the temple; rather Hindus reiterated positively in this modern age that dalits are not part of the Hindu religion, and are not wanted. It was a turning away and a slap in the face to a whole community. I think we can imagine how they would have felt. This was a modern day partition of the Hindus and dalits. And no Hindu leader; Gandhi, Nehru, Sawarkar, etc., stood up against this abomination.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

I think GS and Viren have responded to this. But my point of contention (and confusion ?) is different. I am more concerned by your categorisation of dalits as non-hindus. Is your claim that dalits are separate from hindus just as muslims are separate from hindus ?
  Reply
#18
Reconciliation based on scriptures is for religions based on "books", and one wonders why it is not in hinduism? <!--emo&:blink:--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/blink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='blink.gif' /><!--endemo-->

GS is right. "Reconciliation and lack of it in our scriptures" is really a christian/islamic way of looking at the world.

When the whole world is moving towards downgrading the authority of the scriptures or the received tradition and/or circumscribing or privatizing religion; or appealing to a new or different revelation (Humanism or Pluralism). It is amazing to see some scholars here want to take retrograde steps and re-invent new scriptures. THere is a reason why Hinduism is not a book of religion.

Experts and the usual suspects can chime in..

<!--emo&:lol:--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/laugh.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='laugh.gif' /><!--endemo-->
  Reply
#19
Thanks for the responses and excuse the delayed reply. Been travelling.

I stand corrected on Savarkar, G. Subra and Viren. I have since revised my view that we really cannot blame the socio-political leaders like Gandhi, Nehru and Savarkar for their feeble activism against discrimination against dalits in Hinduism - there was nothing much they could do. The leaders of Hinduism who could have made a difference would be the sampradaya heads - the archaryas and madhadipathis. They were silent.

Viren, the article was twice posted with different comments of mine. Hence the confusion.

Rajesh, the dalits ARE Hindus but the non-dalits rejected association with them, implying they are not Hindus. Temples are where the Hindu/Indian/residents' congregation gathers to greet the Diety at the appointed times. Dalits are also termed 'avarna' - no varna. Some say only the 4 varnas are Hindus.

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->R: I dont think your points in #3 and #4 deserves any rebuttal. I will just give you one example -> hindus and sikhs and be done with it.

KR: Reconciliation based on scriptures is for religions based on "books", and one wonders why it is not in hinduism? 
GS is right. "Reconciliation and lack of it in our scriptures" is really a christian/islamic way of looking at the world.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Rajesh, you are wrong as K.Ram and GS says. Please rebut. (Sikhism. Is not in our shastras)

K. Ram, I am surprised, sad and flabbergasted to know that my view was correct. I really wanted to be wrong. How did the genious of Hinduism fail in so important an issue other than offering institutionalised caste coexistence?

Will respond to the others later.
  Reply
#20
Pathmarajah,

Sorry missed this post. Was busy with other things.

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Rajesh, you are wrong as K.Ram and GS says. Please rebut. (Sikhism. Is not in our shastras)<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

They why did you say "hostile coexistence between hindus and muslims". Islam is in our shastras ? You also stated "We have no history of reconciliation in the 20th century." and hence a recent example. We have a Sikh PM.

You have avoided comment on "silent war on dalits". Please acknowledge.
  Reply


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