Dalits - Real Issues & Discussion

[Guest]

Pathmarajah,
How Dalits are treated in your native country Sri Lanka? Please shed some light.

[Guest]

Pathama,

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->There are people who talk, and others who walk the talk.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There'll be a day when one could click on your link on the forum/email and start walking into the real world to check out the beach where you are building this temple. Till that day arrives we'll have to accept your "talk" just the way you accept the claims by others. You have conveninently ignored posts by others on hundreds of dalit/tribal conversions. You pooh-pooed the fact that over 500 women in past 30 years are being trained as priests. Why is it that it's so difficult for you to accept the fact that there are others out there who are doing more and have done more than you possibly can? If you have any point to make on this forum, please tell as to how your methodology and results differ from those who are doing their bit. If you park your behind web blogs and forums passing judgements on others who are doing their bit, expect the same back.

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Recent NS happenings:

"We have a real village, real people--two castes live in the area. We have been asked to fund renovation of a temple in the 'paria' hamlet. I put the condition that the we'll help only if the temple is open to all--that fishermen caste are invited to the temple opening and have some people from the city attend it too. Also since is being done by a religious orgnaization--I wanted them to do an upanayanam ceremony for a few boys and girls in the village. They readily agreed!"<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
To have a true appreciation for what you claim, feel free to share: name of the place, pictures if possible, the number of people who will benefit from this temple, the obstacles you all faced, how you overcame or plan to overcome those obstacles etc. Also how strong is their belief about or this upanayanam a token head bath a la Baptism? See if you can answer these questions as I'd really like to know.

[Guest]

A post from Seer arrest thread (in archive)
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Posted by: Mudy Nov 26 2004, 07:39 PM
Shri Shanmugam, a member of the Dalit Community belonging to Ayyampalayam of Palladam Taluk is an ardent worker of the Hindu Munnani.He had committed suicide this morning. In a note left, he had stated that he is laying his life for the noble cause of Kanchi Seer's immediate release. He also stated that he has none else to save his community from forcible conversion to other religious sects

DEEP CONDOLENCE
media center coimbatore. 22 Nov. 2004 
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Has any self procalimed dalit champion offered any help/assistance to this Dalit's family or they still busy poping a few thumps up bottles singing "Happy days are here again.."

[Guest]

Pathmarajah,

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Very clear and very upfront Rakesh, dont you think?<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Not really. Why not go to IC and post it yourself ? Simple, lack of balls.. <!--emo&--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->

As for your 'implied' meanings and 'dreams', you are trying to extract 'implied' meanings from secondary sources (ones that ask you not to quote <!--emo&:o--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/ohmy.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='ohmy.gif' /><!--endemo-->). What more can I say ?

The requirement still stands. Prove your 'genocide' theory. Prove that those crimes are indeed hate crimes, prove that besides the crimes listed under this category there are other murders perpetrated on dalits which are NOT included in this category non-racist-dalit-murders that is. Post comparable statistics for other ethnicities and that will prove your theory. Without that nothing is proven, and yes you are right "there are no dalit issues (genocide) to be dealt with".

As for "league" etc.. we will take this up when i come in your dreams.. <!--emo&--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif' /><!--endemo-->

[Guest]

Oh re "recent NS happenings"..

What was NavyaShastra founded for ? To come up with "new shastras". I remember way back when people questioned your competency regarding this. At the time I thought they were being too harsh but hey, its been a while and we have seen much howling and boasting -> itihas/purana/DS/veda/etc are all full of cr@p and need to be re-written or something. Well ex-monk we are still waiting for that NavyaShastra to come out. Just post your progress report on that. Or have you guys taken the easy way out and resorted to cheap rhetorics ? Or maybe that was never the intention ?

[Guest]

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Pathmarajah,
How Dalits are treated in your native country Sri Lanka? Please shed some light. <!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Mudy,

I am Malaysian and have never been to Sri Lanka. From what I hear, almost all dalits are with the LTTE, or the rest have chosen refugee in Europe.

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->You have conveninently ignored posts by others on hundreds of dalit/tribal conversions. You pooh-pooed the fact that over 500 women in past 30 years are being trained as priests. Why is it that it's so difficult for you to accept the fact that there are others out there who are doing more and have done more than you possibly can?<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Not all all. There is no one, I repeat, no one who is doing what the VHP and the RSS are doing. They are covering areas no one else is!

I/we are doing quite something different from what the Hindu Indian groups are doing. What we are saying is that, either the sacred thread is got rid off, or, that all Hindus (men, women and non Indians) be eligible for it without discrimination, on demand. Clear! This is what we are doing.

What we can possibly do more is convert more muslims and christians to eastern thinking and ethos. Here I think the VHP and the RSS are behind. But then, this is what I think that matters in the long run. No amount of reconverting Hindus is going to change the big picture.

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->To have a true appreciation for what you claim, feel free to share: name of the place, pictures if possible, the number of people who will benefit from this temple, the obstacles you all faced, how you overcame or plan to overcome those obstacles etc. Also how strong is their belief about or this upanayanam a token head bath a la Baptism? See if you can answer these questions as I'd really like to know. <!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

This event will happen this year in South India. Several hundred dalit children will be given the namakarana samskara, the vratyastoma samskara, followed by the upanayana IN A TEMPLE. Thereafter they will be taught, guided and counselled. I will post details and pictures after this event has taken place. Count on it to be covered widely in Indian media. Meanwhile, hang loose.


<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Shri Shanmugam, a member of the Dalit Community belonging to Ayyampalayam of Palladam Taluk is an ardent worker of the Hindu Munnani.He had committed suicide this morning. In a note left, he had stated that he is laying his life for the noble cause of Kanchi Seer's immediate release. He also stated that he has none else to save his community from forcible conversion to other religious sects<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

I think this is an irresponsible idiot, and a christian in his beliefs, though he may not be saying so. Hindus dont do this. Dont you agree?

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->As for your 'implied' meanings and 'dreams', you are trying to extract 'implied' meanings from secondary sources (ones that ask you not to quote ). What more can I say ?
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

What are you talking about? We know where your sources on ''dreams" came from. You have already embaressed our mutual friend. I never asked that my personal PMs to a friend not to be quoted. Lets see your balls now and quote it. Go ahead young man, quote it. Quote it! Or forever be silent!


<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->The requirement still stands. Prove your 'genocide' theory. Prove that those crimes are indeed hate crimes, prove that besides the crimes listed under this category there are other murders perpetrated on dalits which are NOT included in this category non-racist-dalit-murders that is. Post comparable statistics for other ethnicities and that will prove your theory. Without that nothing is proven, and yes you are right "there are no dalit issues (genocide) to be dealt with". <!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Proven beyond doubt. Your govt has acknowledged it within their own statistics. What more you want?

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->What was NavyaShastra founded for ? To come up with "new shastras". I remember way back when people questioned your competency regarding this. At the time I thought they were being too harsh but hey, its been a while and we have seen much howling and boasting -> itihas/purana/DS/veda/etc are all full of cr@p and need to be re-written or something. Well ex-monk we are still waiting for that NavyaShastra to come out. Just post your progress report on that. Or have you guys taken the easy way out and resorted to cheap rhetorics ?<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Tall Man, <!--emo&--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo--> I dont recall anyone questioning my competancy!

You are completely mistaken. Why not read NS objectives to get a clear picture. There is no plan for new scriptures. Only rishis and saints write new scriptures. Ordinary folks like us dont. But if you are keen I will keep you posted on progress.

Navyashastra wants to provide upanayana to all Hindus, men, women and non Indians on demand. They deal with Hindu Indians.

Siddha Community wants to introduce Hindu Beliefs and Practices to all language-culture-ethnic communities, and evangelise. They dont deal with Indians.

Why is this so hard to understand? Do you have a problem here?

Pathma

[Guest]

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin--><b>Dalits In Reverse</b>

<i>From being the dominant community at one time, the Tamil Brahmins are facing the effects of a new casteism</i>

S. ANAND
March 22. The day of the annual chariot festival at the Kapaleeswarar temple, Mylapore. Thousands of spectators jostle for space. Amid shouts of "Kapali", the Siva-mounted chariot inches along the temple tank. Hundreds of non-Brahmins sweat at the vadam (ropes) of the chariot. P. Madhavan, 40, asks for a chance to handle the vadam. After touching the rope, he retreats to his spectator position, leaving the task of pulling the chariot to others. He merely wanted some punyam (blessings) by the symbolic handling of the vadam.

Standing on the sidelines, and often reticent, the Tamil Brahmin community is not known to expend energy on protests. It is not surprising thus that one saw little by way of public protest following the arrest of the two Shankaracharyas of Kanchipuram. But the fact is that the Tamil Brahmin community is distressed, dismayed and angry. Several have confessed to going hungry and sleepless for days. At workplaces, middle-class Brahmin employees wore a forlorn look for weeks. Organised supporters launched websites and issued full-page ads in newspapers. The nris wrote angry emails and blogged. For the middle-class Brahmin, the fretting and fuming seemed limited to drawing rooms, helplessly watching TV and writing an occasional letter to the media.

The Brahmin in Tamil country has felt that he has been on the ropes for close to a hundred years now. The assertion of self-respect by the non-Brahmins since the launch of the Non-Brahmin Manifesto in 1916, the Periyar-led Self-Respect Movement that followed, the formation of the Justice Party government in 1920 and the coming to power of the DMK in 1967 led to the unhinging of Brahmin hegemony. In 1928, the Brahmins, who constituted 3 per cent of the population, occupied 620 gazetted officer positions compared to non-Brahmin Hindus who had only 327 officers. <b>Today, in the only state where reservation for various non-Brahmin communities goes up to 69 per cent</b>, the non-Brahmins have come into their own. Recalls danseuse Anita Ratnam: "My brother did not get an engineering seat despite scoring 98 per cent and had to study in a Madurai college. When they looked for marriage proposals for me in the '70s, all eligible Brahmin boys had gone abroad!"

The rise of the Kanchi math paralleled the ascension of Dravidian power. Functioning from a rented building, the math moved to its present address—1, Salai Street, Kanchipuram—only in the 1920s. Till the 1940s, the math attracted little public attention. Reeling under the onslaught of the Periyarite movement, several educated Brahmins of Tamil Nadu headed for Bombay and Delhi. Those who entered the civil services and business invested faith and resources in the math.

Once the DMK came to power, the Brahmins ceased to throw up major political figures. Even the Congress—which once boasted of stalwarts like S. Satyamurthy and C. Rajagopalachari—began to clamour for non-Brahmin faces; the Left parties, which traditionally attracted Brahmin leadership, are today led by non-Brahmins in Tamil Nadu. Besides <b>CM J. Jayalalitha, the only Brahmin MLA in the 234-member assembly is the BJP's H. Raja</b>. In contrast, the Thevars have 93 MLAs.
Squeezed out of politics, the Brahmins wrested control of the bureaucracy, emerging as significant players in Delhi and rallied around the Kanchi math. Under Jayendra Saraswati, who allied himself with the emerging Hindutva, the math attracted politicians and industrialists of various hues and acquired a national profile. Today, such a math is in a shambles.

The president of Tamil Nadu Brahmins Association (Tambras), N. Narayanan, says the impact of Shankaracharya's arrest was "a semi-tsunami" for the Brahmins. He is unhappy with the Brahmin response. "They sit within four walls and cry.They reacted emotionally, not intellectually. I wanted 10,000 Brahmins for a protest, but few turned up.Brahmins must use this opportunity to come out of their shell." But says S. Kumar, an employee of Bank of Baroda, "I am afraid of participating in a rally in this Dravidian ethos."

Not all Brahmins are reluctant. Prema Krishanmurthy, 54, a typical traditional Brahmin from Mylapore, has rarely stepped out of her house. But the Kanchi math issue has stirred her. At a protest meeting, she said: "All Brahmin women must become Durga swaroopinis (incarnate)." Spouting Sanskrit shlokas, she compares Jayendra's predicament to the mythical Prahlada's. Jayendra's tribulations have rekindled personal memories of persecution. "When I sported the madisaru-style sari at 18, people heckled me. When my son was 16, DMK workers pulled his kudumi (tuft)."

The Tamil Brahmin community is not unanimous in its opinion. K.R. Prakash and his wife Rama Prakash, both employed at the accountant-general office, were first shocked. Several of Prakash's Brahmin women colleagues cried. Rama says: "We regarded the earlier pontiff as our kula-guru. The present Shankaracharyas never touched our lives." Rama's brother S. Ramanathan says the developments around the math have hurt them, but prefers to be pragmatic. "Over the last decade, one could buy personal benediction from Jayendra Saraswati. He would visit anybody's house for a price." The math's commercialisation had alienated quite a few followers who, today, regret having to "defend the indefensible".

A. Srivatsan, who teaches at the School of Architecture, Anna University, and specialises in temples, says: "In arguing that Jayendra was political and commercial unlike Chandrashekarendra, his defenders are trying to rationalise the arrest. Talking of persecution is another way of coming to terms with the arrest." Counters Anita Ratnam: "On a visit to the Vaishnavite Srimad Andavan ashram, I felt an embarrassing silence about the Shankaracharya issue. One feels the
Brahmin community is being seen as culpable."

Mumbai-based writer C.S. Lakshmi, better known as Ambai, says ordinary Brahmins have been shaken by the arrest irrespective of their opinion on Jayendra. "My 90-year-old mother used to keep a picture of all three Shankaracharyas. After his arrest, she removed Jayendra Saraswati's photo from the frame. In Chembur, Uttam Society runs a temple where they had a portrait of Jayendra. They have now removed it." She, however, says the Brahmins must not be complaining so much: "They may not dominate politics and the economy, but brahminic values have penetrated all strata of life and the media."

The lack of protests also owes to the math's poor following, according to Gnaani, editor, Dheemtarikita: "The math never had a mass following like Bangaru Adigalar or other non-Brahmin maths. Even among Brahmins, only the political right sees this as persecution." Says Srivatsan: "In reality, the Kanchi math has hardly been representative of Tamil Brahmins. The temple-worshipping culture of the Tamils owes its legacy to the Bhakti movement of Alwars and Nayanmars. The advaitic Kanchi math derives nothing from this tradition."

According to litterateur Sundara Ramaswamy: "There are many Brahmins who feel we must not attack Jayendra Saraswati at this moment even if he could be guilty. He worked for the uplift of Brahmins. His contribution to Hinduism is minimal. Jayendra never liked genuine Hindu leaders like Vivekananda as he was not a Brahmin. In terms of social transformation, this episode had little impact on society."

Indira Parthasarathy, playwright and winner of the Saraswati Samman, says it is only the 50-plus generation that has been shaken. "Jayendra Saraswati is not a rallying point for the community." Parthasarathy argues that there was no anti-Brahminism in Tamil society to start with. "There was no Brahmin-non-Brahmin antagonism during the Sangam and Bhakti periods." He blames it on British colonialism: "In north India, British divided the society into Hindus and Muslims. In the south, the only divide possible was into non-Brahmin and Brahmin."

Points out Cho Ramaswamy, Rajya Sabha MP: "The Brahmin is harassed. There was a time when Brahmins dominated every field. This had to change. When Periyar started his movement, violence was systematically encouraged. The DK and DMK scandalised the Brahmin community. The Brahmin met the challenge and has emerged successful. Because of lack of reservation, the Brahmins had to perform better, work harder." Dismissing the comparison with Jews, Cho says, "There was no such persecution though Periyar may have wanted it to happen."

Who will the Tamil Brahmins now turn to? Tambras president Narayanan's final appeal is to Jayalalitha: "If Jayalalitha can offer a package for the tsunami-affected fisherfolk, she must also announce one for the aggrieved brahmin community and mollify them." The real tsunami did not affect the Tamil brahmins. But the epicentre of their grief lies 75 km southwest of Chennai, in Kanchipuram.
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

[Guest]

Im sure many of you resonate with this.

<b>A Woman's Recollection</b>


If there were
enough people living their egalitarian principles in day to day life,
a lot of non-brahmanas would have been touched by at least one such
soul, and would not stereotype the brahmanas.

I had an equally previliged upbringing. My father involved in no
particular project, but he has always lived a life of sensitivity and
respect to everyone that came in contact with him - everyone. He had
no particluar ideology about communism or social reform but just led a
life unfearingly full of good manners, concern and thoughtfulness
shown to everyone around him.

Those were the times when the domestic help had to use only the back-
door for entry into the house, would clean cooking and eating
utensils, but not allowed to wash pooja samaan, would dust and clean
the bathrooms, toilets and other rooms but not the kitchen or pooja,
would wash all clothes except the clothes related to pooja. In our
house it was all the opposite. The help was always asked to use the
front door, would sweep and clean all rooms including kitchen and
pooja, but the bathrooms and toilets we had to do ourselves, would
wash all clothes including pooja clothes but the undergarments we had
to do ourselves, would wash all utensils and pooja utensils, but we
had to wash our eaten plates ourselves. When we gave food to the help
to carry home, she took vessels that we normally use, no separate
containers.

He invited every newly married person in his office home for a lunch,
whether an officer or the janitor. While bade-saabs used to just hand
a bunch of notes as gift when peons and sweepers gave them marriage
invitations, my father would actually attend every wedding and has
partaken many meals in the poorest dalit weddings.

Even in those days he greeted and thanked everyone for everything like
they do in the west - rikshaw drivers, conducters, lift-operators, our
electrician, plumber etc. I remember how many of them used to be too
shocked to even respond to that. But unlike the formality that it is
in the west, he did it very sincerely and genuinely, even if it looked
very odd.

He had good friends among the brahmins as well as DK supporters. He
got along well with his seniors although he always fought for the best
for those working under him. To this day, he never spouts any big
words, but quietly leads a very gracefully inclusive existence. His DK
friends would always say 'if even half the brahmanas were like you,
this movement would never have started.'

If we take care of things at a personal level, there would
never be the need for salvaging anything through public efforts.

oru paanai corrukku oru coru pothum. One grain is enough to make an
assessment of cookedness for an entire pot of rice. If we all
positively touch people's lives in our personal lives, we dont have to
hear these comments about evil brahmins or evil kashatriyas or
whatever. I am not saying that the brahmanas who dont live like this
are all evil, but perhaps come out looking a little thoughtlessly
elitist. Elitism happens everywhere when there are class differences,
but in India there is also the caste factor that is involved. So the
bitterness towards this display of elitism becomes more intense. And
for most part, behavioural changes dont happen even if there is no
elitism involved. It is sometimes due to a certain awkwardness about
doing things differently, just shyness and lack of courage to look and
act different.

Regards,
Sugrutha

[Guest]

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->A Woman's Recollection


If there were
enough people living their egalitarian principles in day to day life,
a lot of non-brahmanas would have been touched by at least one such
soul, and would not stereotype the brahmanas.

I had an equally previliged upbringing. My father involved in no
particular project, but he has always lived a life of sensitivity and
respect to everyone that came in contact with him - everyone. He had
no particluar ideology about communism or social reform but just led a
life unfearingly full of good manners, concern and thoughtfulness
shown to everyone around him.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->



Pathmaraja,

Again, you have selectively chosen an anecdote that renders support to your allegation and colored perspective on the social reality, like that very "poignant" story by a Sugrutha (a real person, or a figment of your imagination?).

First, undesirable conduct or behaviour, such as rudeness, brusqueness, arrogance, and bossiness, exhibited by one social class toward another that is lower in the social ladder is found in every society, without exception. Take England, where not just the aristocracy looked down and treated the peasants rudely, but also the middle class tended to look down on the working class and treat them as non-entities. The same was true even in the so-called egalitarian society of the USA until not long ago. It is only in the last fifty years or so that the societies became somewhat egalitarian and people learned to behave civilly toward one another irrespective of their socio-economic background, and at least to not outwardly exhibit class snobbishness. At the subtle level however the class differences continue to exist, as evidenced by the extent to which the middle and upper classes keep a social distance from the "working" classes, and very little social mingling is done between the two classes in many western societies.

You like anecdotes, don't you Pathmarajah, so here's one for you (I have plenty of them from all around the world given my profession as a social scientist). As recent as in the early eighties, when an upper class acquaintance’s son in the UK declared to his parents that he was going to marry his girlfriend (his parents were visibly shaken, unhappy and distraught, because the girl, as lovely as she was, came from a mediocre, working class background (her father was a butcher or something, and both her parents were poorly educated, and certainly didn't speak with a public school accent). The boy's parents were miffed and tried their level best to dissuade him from marrying beneath their social circle. In fact, a lot of comedy series and movies from UK during the late seventies and eighties revolved around this social divide between working class and the middle-upper classes in the British society.

The class differences in many societies, including in many parts of India, have diluted over the years, and will continue to dilute as each generation of boys and girls of all social classes mix and intermingle in schools, universities, and at the work place. So, why pick on India as being any different, and keep harping on the Brahmins as the cause of all social divisions and conflicts. On the contrary, all castes in India engaged in differential behaviour and treatment of other castes that were considered as being lower than them in the social ladder. One has to go to UP or Bihar today, and witness how the land owners, the zamindars, who are not Brahmins, treat the farmers. The Chettiars, Naidus, and Pillais, and all other castes in TN have in the past and even today do not always behave with civility to persons lower than them in the social rank. Such behaviour, though not nice, appears to be a universal human trait, and not restricted to the Brahmin community alone.

Second, the fact that you constantly harp on the Brahmin attitudes and conduct, but overlook the social responsibilities of other castes/social classes, suggest suspiciously to me that you have some personal grievances toward the Brahman community specifically, and are using the social conditions and problems in India as an excuse and ploy to attack this community and extract your personal vengeance. I suspect that you care less about the socioeconomic plight of the dalits than you claim to, but are more interested in socially gunning down the Brahmin community, for whatever reason.

It is alleged that Hitler's obsession with the Jews and blind hatred for them might have been due to his Jewish family history, although he managed to build a fantastic case for eliminating them, using the rationale that the Jews alone were responsible for the economic downfall of Germany and the high poverty among Germans.

One last anecdote – can’t seem to resist it, anecdotes are quite addictive – a colleague of mine from many years ago, who after his wife left him, went through his entire professional life hating and condemning all women, and trying to find scientific “evidence” in support of his staunch belief of the genetic inferiority of the female species. Sadly, he couldn’t prove anything up until his retirement day! On his last day at work, we, his colleagues, sent him home with a wristwatch…..

[Guest]

Kabir sang, thus

Buraa jo dekan main chala bura na miliya koy|

Jo aapan main dekhyaa mujh se bura na koy||

For 404 types, this means "I went in search of evil but found it nowhere. When I looked into my own self, none was more evil than me! "

[Guest]

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Proven beyond doubt. Your govt has acknowledged it within their own statistics.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Nope. Dont use std psec tricks. Repeating the lies a hundred times is not going to prove it. MY govt never said these are hate crimes. They said these are crimes against dalits. From the Thorat paper (secondary source saying "not to quote")..

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->The official statistic during 1990 to 2000, indicate that a total of two and half lakh (precisely 252370 cases) cases of various crimes were registered countrywide by the dalits.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

It doesnt say hate crimes..

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->I dont recall anyone questioning my competancy! <!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Doesnt surprise me. They were saying it while you were awake.. Anyway so what does Navya Shastra mean ? Just a cool name or what ..

[Guest]

Pathmarajah,
Please don't paste short fictions here. This is a serious topic and thread.

So, you have never visited your country of Origin Sri Lanka.
Have you ever been to India?
Have you ever been to Indian cities or villages?
Have you ever worked in Indian govt office or Private firm in India?
Have you ever lived in Brahmin or Dalit family home in India?
Have you read Munshi Premchand books?

[Guest]

Indian Institute of Dalit Studies website.. http://www.dalitstudies.org/

Their board of mgmt..

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->BOARD OF MANAGEMENT
PATRON  

Hon'ble K.R. Narayanan
Former President of India


CHAIRMAN  

Mr. Martin Macwan
Director, Navsarjan Trust, Ahmedabad

MEMBERS  


Prof. Sukhadeo Thorat
Centre for the Study of Regional Development,
Jawaharlal Nehru Univeristy,
New Delhi

Prof. Ghanshyam Shah
Centre for Social Medicine and Community Health,
Jawaharlal Nehru University,
New Delhi

Prof. Ashok Mathur
Former Professor, Centre for the Study of Regional Development,
Jawaharlal Nehru University,
New Delhi

Dr. Rohini Nayar
Advisor, Rurall Development,
Planning Commission,
New Delhi
Ms. Palanimuthu Sivakami
Commissioner,
Department of Finance,
Govt. of Tamil Nadu,
Chennai

Prof. Gail Omvedt
Former Professor,
Department of Sociology,
University of Pune,
Pune<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

What do we know about this Martin Macwan fellow ?

[Guest]

Interesting link on dalit causes and 'traitors' to their causes..

http://wcar.alrc.net/mainfile.php/Report/38

BTW it states..

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->There Babasaheb clearly stated, explaining why he selected Nagpur for Conversion that" Nagpur was the centre of Naga Kingdom and Culture. There is a river known as Nag River around this city, I heard... Nagpur name also came from Nag People. At one time Nagas were the warriors and rulers of India...Nagas were the staunch followers of Buddhism... After Aryan invasion, there were many wars between them. India's history is nothing but the struggle for supremacy between Buddhism and Brahminism..They annihilated Nagas by hook or by crook..We heard the story of saving a Nag, the serpent, by Augusti Rushi in the hindu literature.. that was not the nag serpent but Nag people.. we are supposed to be the descendants of that Naga Person....." This clearly states that we, the Dalits, are different from Indo-Aryans.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

How true is this ?

[Guest]

Comrade Parshad..

http://www.zmag.org/prashaddurban.htm

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin--> Dalit rights activists have, naturally, been eager to raise the question of caste discrimination on the international stage, particularly since this government (in power since 1998) has been the first to block discussion of caste in international forums. Martin Macwan, national head of the National Campaign for Dalit Human Rights, reminds us that <b>"in earlier international forums, notably the Committee on Elimination of Discrimination Against Women, the Government of India had successfully taken up the issue of caste-based discrimination. Why is it insisting that caste is an 'internal' matter?"</b> The idea that caste is an "internal" matter is specious, mainly because "caste" as we know it today is decidedly fostered by a combination of Indian social relations, European-driven colonialism, and global capitalism. These three factors produce what we know as caste today, since the practice cannot claim to be an ahistorical reflection of what one reads in Sanskrit texts. Caste, then, is not "internal," but a form of social discrimination that is in conversation with similar forms elsewhere. It is in this spirit that most Dalit rights activists want to hold the international discussion.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin--> The main platform for the liberation of oppressed castes in India is land reform, a remedy that would make no sense in the western European context. While we seek to be internationalists in our vision and to fight against the occlusion of oppression by <b>cruel nationalism</b> (often in the service of imperialist globalization), we should be very keen to the political platforms that our analysis produces. <b>Politics is, after all, not just about our gut instincts, but principally about the platforms we produce to engender struggles.</b><!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

[Guest]

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->How true is this ? <!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Complete BS.

[Guest]

I have written to Sri Venkatesan and Sri Thorat regarding the implications being derived from their paper. Sri Thorat's mail has bounced. Sri Venkatesan has not replied yet. I will post his reply, if there is one.

[Guest]

<!--QuoteBegin-Mudy+Apr 16 2005, 08:54 AM-->QUOTE(Mudy @ Apr 16 2005, 08:54 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->How true is this ? <!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Complete BS. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
We should also collect info on these dalit 'activitists'. Lets try to find out who is sincere and who is a-roy frequent flying type. Who funds their activities. How they are allied to each other. etc.

[Guest]

Ah, Sankara,

Anyone on the circuit of Hindu forums knows Sugrutha and she doesn't need any introduction. You can see for yourself that no one else is questioning, except you!

Colored perspective on social reality? You are a social scientist - but have you covered India? Have you studied Indians laws that outlawed caste, and why such laws are necessary in India but not in most other nations. Give me an example of such laws, say, in UK, Thailand, Kenya.

Have you considered the writings of Vivekananda, Gandhi and Ambedkar? Have you covered the caste victimisation of recent tsunami victims. I dont believe this!

Selective anecdotes? Indian govt statistics on caste crimes, their discussions in parliament, further laws, discussions in conferences and seminars participated by govt ministers, as well as UN conferences and social indices speaks enough, dont you think. Those stats were published by the NDA govt!!

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->The class differences in many societies, including in many parts of India, have diluted over the years, and will continue to dilute as each generation of boys and girls of all social classes mix and intermingle in schools, universities, and at the work place. So, why pick on India as being any different, and keep harping on the Brahmins as the cause of all social divisions and conflicts. On the contrary, all castes in India engaged in differential behaviour and treatment of other castes that were considered as being lower than them in the social ladder. One has to go to UP or Bihar today, and witness how the land owners, the zamindars, who are not Brahmins, treat the farmers. The Chettiars, Naidus, and Pillais, and all other castes in TN have in the past and even today do not always behave with civility to persons lower than them in the social rank. Such behaviour, though not nice, appears to be a universal human trait, and not restricted to the Brahmin community alone.
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

What you say regarding dilution of caste differences is true. Regarding 'picking India' show me such statistics on hate crimes in other nations.

No one said Brahmins are the cause of ALL social divisions. No one is pickings brahmins only. We know and have talked about the OBC culpability.

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->..overlook the social responsibilities of other castes/social classes<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Please educate me about this. I asked about this before but it was not forthcoming.

Please also dont draw comparisons with jews and germans. Like I said, you jumped in the middle of discussions and missed much of that has already been discussed.

Rajesh,

That was a good twist from 'dreams' to thorat paper. Its okay pal.

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->It doesnt say hate crimes.. <!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Check with HHR and UN. Why even designate them separately if they are not ethnic/hate crimes? What is the purpose of separate designations? From hereon answer questions before asking any further.

Navyashastra means 'new social order' and not necessarily new shastra. This is as opposed to the old medieval social order.

Mudy,

So, you have never visited your country of Origin Sri Lanka.
Have you ever been to India?
Have you ever been to Indian cities or villages?
Have you ever worked in Indian govt office or Private firm in India?
Have you ever lived in Brahmin or Dalit family home in India?
Have you read Munshi Premchand books?

No, yes, yes, yes, yes, and no. But I have read enough of other Indian writers. I thought I said this all before when you first asked. What is you point? Please dont waste time with your trivial and one line burps. Do you have any arguments and facts?

Have you read your constitution? Please answer before posting any further questions or it will be ignored.

Pathma

[Guest]

Interesting website..

http://www.idsn.org/index.htm