06-02-2005, 07:28 AM
Sorry for the belated replies..
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin--> Gangajal: Hayagriva,
Yes, I can elaborate on other problems with Vaishnavism. It's complete denial of the Non-dual Brahman (Ramaunjacharya's position) or downgrading of it (Gaudiya Vasihnava position) is clearly a problem.
Another problem is the Vaishnava insistence on monotheism. That automatically downgrades followers of Shiva, Kali, Ganapati, Surya etc. <!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Gangajal, those problems that you say are YOUR problems.
Untill now, you have filed TWO problems (if we can call them problems):
1. One, that Vaishnavism's 'comple denial or downgrading' of Brahman
Well, you are trying to impose your view of what Vaishnavism should be and Vaishnavism failing to comply with your idea of what it should ideally be, you cry problems.
If this isn't your problem what else is it?
Vaishnavism is not meant to conform to your mental projection of how you understand vedanta to be.
Having said that, it is you who is really a problem. Because you try to find problems with Vaishnavism when you really don't have to.
2. Secondly,
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Even in your defence of your position you are downgrading Shiva by claiming that Shiva is an expansion to govern the mode of ignorance. Don't you see that you are being very insulting to followers of Shiva? Followers of Kali are also insulted when Gaudiya Vaishnavas claim that Radha is a very special hladhini Shakti while Kali, Durga are only ordinary shakti. Any incident where Chaitanya is shown to worship Kali is thrown out of the window by the Gaudiya Vaishnavas. For example,
Govindadasa mentions in his Kadaca that Chaitanya went into ecstasy in a temple dedicated to Kali in Padmakota during his South India tour (c 1510). Of course, Gaudiya Vaishnavas do not accept this eye-witness report! <!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is getting interesting.
Where do Shaivites claim that its insulting for them that Vaishnavites believe that Vishnu is the Supreme and that Shiva is an expansion of Vishnu?
Shaivites believe that Shiva is the Supreme Personality of Godhead and Vaishnavites are not about to go to war over this. Shaivites believe what they have to believe to qualify as Shaivites and so do Vaishnavites.
Each have their belief systems and this respective belief is NOT automatically seen as insult to each other.
The only people who seem to have problems with this are the Advaitins who belong frankly to neither of the two, while they wish they were both at the same time. It simply won't work.
In many numerous Sri Vaishavite Temples, there are Shrines to Lord Shiva managed by Shaivites. Side by Side, each tradition claiming devotion to Shiva or Vishnu alone. Absolute peaceful co-existence.
Please don't barge on this peace with your problems that Vaishnavites will have to accomodate your speculations too.
You are tying to force Vaishnavites into dropping Vishnu as supreme and accepting that there are no really Vishnu or Shiva and that these are only fantasy names exisiting in some kind of dream state... or else, that Vaishnavites are insulting Shiva?
What next, would you like to organise a progrom to kill all the Vaishnavites for offending Shaivites and vice versa so that no Vaishnavite nor Shaivite will exist to sing the praises exclusively to each's God?
Followers of Kali are also insulted you say.. would you care to give an example where Shaktas are angry that Vaishnavas are worshipping Vishnu alone???
Don't forget that Shaktas believe that the trinity of Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva were created by Shakti who also expanded into tri-devis to unite with each of them. Now, we Vaishnavas don't have a problem with what Shaktas believe. DO You have a problem?
Sri Chaitanya also went into ecstacy at a Shiva temple as far as I know.
How does that translate into Sri Chaitanya worshipping Shiva as Supreme? The truth is that Chaitanya acharya was paying his respects to the greatest Vaishnava and these respects are as good as worship.
So if at all Chaitanya acharya fell into trance in a Kali temple, you need not unnecessarily speculate into imagining that Chaitanya is teaching Advaita-vada or as worshipping Kali as supreme.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin--> Gangajal: Hayagriva,
Yes, I can elaborate on other problems with Vaishnavism. It's complete denial of the Non-dual Brahman (Ramaunjacharya's position) or downgrading of it (Gaudiya Vasihnava position) is clearly a problem.
Another problem is the Vaishnava insistence on monotheism. That automatically downgrades followers of Shiva, Kali, Ganapati, Surya etc. <!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Gangajal, those problems that you say are YOUR problems.
Untill now, you have filed TWO problems (if we can call them problems):
1. One, that Vaishnavism's 'comple denial or downgrading' of Brahman
Well, you are trying to impose your view of what Vaishnavism should be and Vaishnavism failing to comply with your idea of what it should ideally be, you cry problems.
If this isn't your problem what else is it?
Vaishnavism is not meant to conform to your mental projection of how you understand vedanta to be.
Having said that, it is you who is really a problem. Because you try to find problems with Vaishnavism when you really don't have to.
2. Secondly,
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Even in your defence of your position you are downgrading Shiva by claiming that Shiva is an expansion to govern the mode of ignorance. Don't you see that you are being very insulting to followers of Shiva? Followers of Kali are also insulted when Gaudiya Vaishnavas claim that Radha is a very special hladhini Shakti while Kali, Durga are only ordinary shakti. Any incident where Chaitanya is shown to worship Kali is thrown out of the window by the Gaudiya Vaishnavas. For example,
Govindadasa mentions in his Kadaca that Chaitanya went into ecstasy in a temple dedicated to Kali in Padmakota during his South India tour (c 1510). Of course, Gaudiya Vaishnavas do not accept this eye-witness report! <!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is getting interesting.
Where do Shaivites claim that its insulting for them that Vaishnavites believe that Vishnu is the Supreme and that Shiva is an expansion of Vishnu?
Shaivites believe that Shiva is the Supreme Personality of Godhead and Vaishnavites are not about to go to war over this. Shaivites believe what they have to believe to qualify as Shaivites and so do Vaishnavites.
Each have their belief systems and this respective belief is NOT automatically seen as insult to each other.
The only people who seem to have problems with this are the Advaitins who belong frankly to neither of the two, while they wish they were both at the same time. It simply won't work.
In many numerous Sri Vaishavite Temples, there are Shrines to Lord Shiva managed by Shaivites. Side by Side, each tradition claiming devotion to Shiva or Vishnu alone. Absolute peaceful co-existence.
Please don't barge on this peace with your problems that Vaishnavites will have to accomodate your speculations too.
You are tying to force Vaishnavites into dropping Vishnu as supreme and accepting that there are no really Vishnu or Shiva and that these are only fantasy names exisiting in some kind of dream state... or else, that Vaishnavites are insulting Shiva?
What next, would you like to organise a progrom to kill all the Vaishnavites for offending Shaivites and vice versa so that no Vaishnavite nor Shaivite will exist to sing the praises exclusively to each's God?
Followers of Kali are also insulted you say.. would you care to give an example where Shaktas are angry that Vaishnavas are worshipping Vishnu alone???
Don't forget that Shaktas believe that the trinity of Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva were created by Shakti who also expanded into tri-devis to unite with each of them. Now, we Vaishnavas don't have a problem with what Shaktas believe. DO You have a problem?
Sri Chaitanya also went into ecstacy at a Shiva temple as far as I know.
How does that translate into Sri Chaitanya worshipping Shiva as Supreme? The truth is that Chaitanya acharya was paying his respects to the greatest Vaishnava and these respects are as good as worship.
So if at all Chaitanya acharya fell into trance in a Kali temple, you need not unnecessarily speculate into imagining that Chaitanya is teaching Advaita-vada or as worshipping Kali as supreme.