07-28-2005, 11:06 AM
Mitra,
I'm not questioning the sanity of a PRAGMATIC approach to existential threats of all sorts. But paranoia that results in a clumsy attitude towards delicate spiritual issues is certainly silly. THAT is what I meant to point out. Internal spiritual transformation is paramount, paramarthik.
I'm glad you appreciate certain aspects of ISKCON, and you should know that I appreciate some of your social and political concerns. But neither of us should get too carried away by our personal preferences and loyalties, and portray the other falsely. Don't go around talking like you're the only "patriotic" guy around, and judging all other organizations, especially spiritual organizations. I was associated with the RSS when I was in India, and I appreciate the point of view you're coming from. But I think there is room for some of your ideas to mature, as did mine. Just my humble suggestion.
As a matter of fact, ISKCON centers in West Bengal HAVE been attacked by Muslims, and even some female devotees were assaulted. This is in a location pretty close to the Bangladesh border. ISKCON members didn't sit around doing nothing. They organized vigilantes, and even equipped temple guards with guns. Vaishnavism insists on varnashrama dharma, and that includes kshatriya dharma. Silly definitions of "ahimsa" are not Vaishnavism. <b>But FIRST, there should be internal transformation. The SAME activity, performed in Krishna-consciousness and performed in material-consciousness, is as different as gold and iron.</b> This is the Vedic concept of "spiritualization" of society, or what Christ called the Kingdom of God on earth.
I would also like to correct your post about Chaitanya Mahaprabhu leaving Bengal in fear of Muslim persecution. As a matter of fact, He converted large numbers of Muslims, including members of the ruling elite and armed forces. There are entire communities of such people in Allahabad and Benaras who call themselves Pathan Vaishnavs. Sri Chaitanya also lead what would be considered "civil disobedience" movements in Bengal, against the attempts by local qazis to stop His sankirtana movement. In that tradition, there is no other Hindu religious movement that has drawn so many non-Hindu people towards Vedic dharma as has Vaishnavism, and particularly Gaudiya Vaishnavism through ISKCON.
Also, don't draw conclusions about ISKCON from some arbitrary conversation you had with one devotee about the Ayodhya issue. That is also pretty stupid on your part. I guess what he was trying to tell you was that getting involved in external conflict without internal spiritual maturity was wasteful. But after being situated internally in Krishna-consciousness, it is possible to engage in all pragmatic activity, including physically violent activity if needed.
I'm not questioning the sanity of a PRAGMATIC approach to existential threats of all sorts. But paranoia that results in a clumsy attitude towards delicate spiritual issues is certainly silly. THAT is what I meant to point out. Internal spiritual transformation is paramount, paramarthik.
I'm glad you appreciate certain aspects of ISKCON, and you should know that I appreciate some of your social and political concerns. But neither of us should get too carried away by our personal preferences and loyalties, and portray the other falsely. Don't go around talking like you're the only "patriotic" guy around, and judging all other organizations, especially spiritual organizations. I was associated with the RSS when I was in India, and I appreciate the point of view you're coming from. But I think there is room for some of your ideas to mature, as did mine. Just my humble suggestion.
As a matter of fact, ISKCON centers in West Bengal HAVE been attacked by Muslims, and even some female devotees were assaulted. This is in a location pretty close to the Bangladesh border. ISKCON members didn't sit around doing nothing. They organized vigilantes, and even equipped temple guards with guns. Vaishnavism insists on varnashrama dharma, and that includes kshatriya dharma. Silly definitions of "ahimsa" are not Vaishnavism. <b>But FIRST, there should be internal transformation. The SAME activity, performed in Krishna-consciousness and performed in material-consciousness, is as different as gold and iron.</b> This is the Vedic concept of "spiritualization" of society, or what Christ called the Kingdom of God on earth.
I would also like to correct your post about Chaitanya Mahaprabhu leaving Bengal in fear of Muslim persecution. As a matter of fact, He converted large numbers of Muslims, including members of the ruling elite and armed forces. There are entire communities of such people in Allahabad and Benaras who call themselves Pathan Vaishnavs. Sri Chaitanya also lead what would be considered "civil disobedience" movements in Bengal, against the attempts by local qazis to stop His sankirtana movement. In that tradition, there is no other Hindu religious movement that has drawn so many non-Hindu people towards Vedic dharma as has Vaishnavism, and particularly Gaudiya Vaishnavism through ISKCON.
Also, don't draw conclusions about ISKCON from some arbitrary conversation you had with one devotee about the Ayodhya issue. That is also pretty stupid on your part. I guess what he was trying to tell you was that getting involved in external conflict without internal spiritual maturity was wasteful. But after being situated internally in Krishna-consciousness, it is possible to engage in all pragmatic activity, including physically violent activity if needed.