10-31-2005, 11:04 PM
Conversation in a "Indian" group which wears Gandhi on it's sleeve for every issue. When it comes to Dalit's here's a very interesting conversation:
Shiva Shankar
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->M.Gandhi on caste and related matters:
If the Shudras (low castes) leave their ancestral profession and take up
others, ambition will rouse in them and their peace of mind will be
spoiled. Even their family peace will be disturbed. (Hind Swaraj).
I don't believe the caste system to be an odious and vicious dogma. It has
its limitations and defects, but there is nothing sinful about it.
(Harijan, 1933).
I believe in Varnashrama (caste system) which is the law of life. The law
of Varna (color and / or caste) is nothing but the law of conservation of
energy. Why should my son not be scavenger if I am one? (Harijan,
3-6-1947).
He (Shudra, low caste) may not be called a Brahmin (uppermost caste),
though he (Shudra) may have all the qualities of a Brahmin in this birth.
And it is a good thing for him (Shudra) not to arrogate a Varna (caste) to
which he is not born. It is a sign of true humility. (Young India,
11-24-1927).
According to Hindu belief, he who practices a profession which does not
belong to him by birth, does violence to himself and becomes a degraded
being by not living up to the Varna (caste) of his birth. (Young India,
11-14-1927).
As years go by, the conviction is daily growing upon me that Varna (caste)
is the law of man's being, and therefore, caste is necessary for
Christians and Muslims as it has been necessary for Hinduism, and has been
its saving grace. (Speech at Trivandrum, (Collection of Speeches),
Ramanath Suman (1932)).
I would resist with my life the separation of "Untouchables" from the
caste Hindus. The problem of the "Untouchable" community is of
comparatively little importance. (London Round Table Conference 1931.)
I call myself a Snatana man, one who firmly believes in the caste system.
(Dharma Manthan, p 4).
I believe in caste division determined by birth and the very root of caste
division lies in birth. (Varna Vyavastha, p 76-77).
The four castes and the four stages of life are things to be attained by
birth alone. (Dharma Manthan, p 5).
Caste means the predetermination of a man's profession. Caste implies that
a man must practice only the profession of his ancestors for his
livelihood. (Varna Vyavstha, p 28, 56, 68).
Shudra only serves the higher castes as a matter of religious duty and who
will never own any property. The gods will shower down flowers on him.
(Varna Vyavastha, p 15).
I have noticed that the very basis of our thought have been severely
shaken by Western civilization which is the creation of the Satan. (Dharma
Manthan, p 65).
How is it possible that the Antyaja (outcastes) should have the right to
enter all the existing temples? As long as the law of caste and karma has
the chief place in the Hindu religion, to say that every Hindu can enter
every temple is a thing that is not possible today. (Gandhi Sikshan, Vol.
11, p 132).
There are I am sorry to say, many Hindu temples in our midst in this
country, which are no better than brothels. The caste system can't be
said to be bad because it does not allow inter-dining and inter-marriages
in different castes. (Gandhi by Shiru, p129).
The caste system, in my opinion, has a scientific basis. Reason does not
revolt against it. It has disadvantages. Caste creates a social and moral
restraint - I can find no reason for their abolition. To abolish caste is
to demolish Hinduism. There is nothing to fight against the Varnasharma
(caste system). I don't believe the caste system to be an odious and
vicious dogma. It has its limitations and defects, but there is nothing
sinful about it. (Harijan, 1933).
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
-------------------
Yashwant
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->These quotes would suggest that Gandhi was a life-time proponent and
practicener of untouchability and a rigid varna system.
That is not true.
Thse quotes judge Gandhi unfairly. Tha fact is that he was one of
the most important contributer to the realization that
the "untouchables" have not been justly treated in India. He
specifically worked for the untouchables. He toured all over India
for this task, including my own town in 1933.
There is a view, that only the work of an "untouchable" should be
considered to be of value towards improvements of conditions of
their community. This is unfair. Let Gandhi's work be acknowledged.
Gandhi's writings should not to be taken as his final word, and
certainly not as a scripture to his followers. He himself wrote so
in his autobiography.
I know many people, even today, who would not clean their own
toilets. Indian students who come to USA are surprized and shocked
that they are expected to clean their own toilets. Gandhi, not only
cleaned toilets himself, he made his wife do that.
One of Gandhi's son (presumably a Vaishya, although I'll have to
check that in orthodox texts) married a daughter of Rajaji, very
well known to be a Brahmin, in gross violation of the anoloma rules.
He adapted a "Harijan" girl, and raised her for some time.
Gandhi wasn't a great scholar of Hindu shastras, in fact he wasn't a
scholar. But he was an independent thinker, and by his personal
example, he altered Hinduism itself. He thus, in a sense, become a
law-giver.
Gandhi was simply wrong about the four varnas. That fact is that the
existance of four well-defined varnas today is a myth. The
communities (endogamus groups or biradaris) exist; but there is no
reasonable way to classify them into four varnas such that a
majority of the people (or scholars) would agree.
I have carefully analyzed the royal dynasties of Kashmir, since in
case of Kashmir we do have a detailed chronicle. In an overwhelming
majority of cases, the royal families were definitely not of
Kshatriya descent.
There are several ways of judging a community's varna. According to
orthodox texts, Swami Vivekananda, Dr. Rajendra Prasad (President),
Sardar Patel, Chhatrapati Shivaji, etc. were all shudras. The fact
is that the varna system has been long obsolete. Even when it may
have been applicable, there were numerous exceptions and thus the
authors of dharma-shastras were forces to classify these communities
among the varna-sanakras.
Even though Gandhi did write in support of the four varnas, the fact
is that by his actions, he demonstrated the inapplicability of the
varna system. He was a philosoper, a soldier, a merchant and a
sweeper at the same time. From what I have heard from people who
were alive in his time, his leadership was nearly universally
acknowledged by Hindus, and many non-Hindus as well.
Yashwant
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
---------------------------
Shiva Shankar
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Gandhi was against untouchability, yes, but certainly very much for caste.
He was all for "granting untouchables" some kind of honorary Shudra
status, but that was about it.
I suggest you see the film "Badlav ke chaah" by V.Rawat where he
interviews Bhagwan Das - author of "Main Bhangi Hoon" and probably the
greatest Indian alive today. In the film Bhagwan Das clearly explains
Gandhi's point of view - he says that yes Gandhi did clean his own toilet,
and made visitors to his ashrams do so - but several times, at least twice
in speeches, urged people of the Bhangi caste to do their duty (of
cleaning toilets) lest they be born in their next lives cleaning even more
filth!
Surely Bhagwan Das is more of an "expert" on these matters than
you can ever hope to be (not having been born Bhangi, or Mehtar, Jamedar,
Valmiki, Arundattiyar, Dom ... or the many castes doomed to clean by
virtue of Hindu "dharma" dictates). However I congradulate you on the
disquiet you obviously feel about this whole evil, though I do wish you
would not play firefighter for Gandhi.
Shiva Shankar.
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
------------------------------
Yashwant
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->You want to take a quote by an activist and use that to judge
Gandhi. You want to judge Gandhi exclusively by using carefully
clipped quotes. What about what Gandhi did for years? Why do want to
ignore that?
Yes, I am not a Bhangi. That should not make that fact that Gandhi
worked to eradicate untouchability, irrelevanat.
Does one have to be a Dalit to do anything to impact them?
I did work as a janitor's assistant as a student in USA at one time,
incidentally. That is a job that needs to be done, and somebody
needs to do it. Late Jaiprakash Narayan did it when he was a student
in USA.
It would appear to me that many leaders, though themselves Dalit,
have not done much to help Dalits.
Hindu dharma does not dictate. Social customs and economic
conditions do. Hinduism is not based on a book, it is not even a
religion. The dharmashatras are not scriptures, they are opinions of
specific scholars.
In Hinduism, anyone may teach a new philosophy, and can become an
acharya of a new sect. Basavanna, a Brahmin, started the Lingayat
sect, that rejects brahmanical traditions including the vedas.
Ghasidas, a dalit, started the Satnami sect. Kabir, who was not
even a raised a Hindu, started Kabirpanth. Ammachi Amritanandamayi
of Kerala, a dalit, has started her own sampradaya.
Christian and Islamic texts have been used to justify slavery. That
doesn't mean that a Christian or Muslim has to accept slavery today.
Those who are opposed to slavery today, are not expected to renounce
the Bible, if they are Christian.
I would disagree with Gandhi about several things, however I think
he deserves due credit for he did.
Yashwant
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
----------------------------------------
Joe
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Late Swami Saswatikananda, a leader of the Ezhava
community in Kerala told a few years ago that caste is
the foundation of Hinduism, the main ideology.
So he was calling himself and followeres as Sree
Narayanites, the dusciples of Sree Narayana Guru.
One is born in a lower case because of his sins in the
past life. So without many births how can one change
that?
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
---------------------------------------------------------
Shiva Shankar
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin--><i>On Sat, 29 Oct 2005, ymalaiya wrote:
> I did work as a janitor's assistant as a student in USA at one time,
> incidentally. That is a job that needs to be done, and somebody needs to
> do it. Late Jaiprakash Narayan did it when he was a student in USA.
</i>
Yes, we should hang our heads in shame that while it is all right to work
as a janitor in the US of A, here people doing a similar job are treated
as "untouchables". Moreover it is a job reserved for some by birth!
And it explains why you never will or why Mr.Narayan never had
contemplated doing this job "that needs to be done" here in India.
<i>
> Hindu dharma does not dictate. Social customs and economic conditions
> do. Hinduism is not based on a book, it is not even a religion. The
> dharmashatras are not scriptures, they are opinions of specific
> scholars.
</i>
So what if Hinduism is not based on A book? You say it as if it is some
kind of virtue. Give me Buddhism any day, based on the Dhammapada, and
which does dictate that all people are equal and should be treated as
such. Give me the Dhammapada any day which does dictate that there are no
virtues (nor its lack) that are inherited by birth.
<i>
> In Hinduism, anyone may teach a new philosophy, and can become an
> acharya of a new sect. Basavanna, a Brahmin, started the Lingayat
> sect, that rejects brahmanical traditions including the vedas.
> Ghasidas, a dalit, started the Satnami sect. Kabir, who was not
> even a raised a Hindu, started Kabirpanth. Ammachi Amritanandamayi
> of Kerala, a dalit, has started her own sampradaya.
</i>
So what explains the assault on Dalits by caste hindus? What explains the
gradation based on birth? (And Amritanandamayi is not Dalit.)
<i>
> Christian and Islamic texts have been used to justify slavery. That
> doesn't mean that a Christian or Muslim has to accept slavery today.
> Those who are opposed to slavery today, are not expected to renounce the
> Bible, if they are Christian.
</i>
You ought to be more bothered about your religion, viz. Hinduism. Starting
with the Rig Veda (where the brahmin is born from the mouth of Brahma, and
the Shudra from the feet) all hindu texts, Gita etc. are obsessed with
"duty", i.e. caste duty.
<i>
> I would disagree with Gandhi about several things, however I think he
> deserves due credit for he did.
</i>
There were four vows every Congress man and woman had to take to belong to
the party - wear khadi, spin the wheel every day etc. When Ambedkar
suggested to Gandhi that congress people should also be asked to take the
vow that they will not practice untouchability, Gandhi refused!
Yes let us give Gandhi the credit he deserves, but battling caste
is certainly not what he did.
Shiva Shankar.
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Shiva Shankar
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->M.Gandhi on caste and related matters:
If the Shudras (low castes) leave their ancestral profession and take up
others, ambition will rouse in them and their peace of mind will be
spoiled. Even their family peace will be disturbed. (Hind Swaraj).
I don't believe the caste system to be an odious and vicious dogma. It has
its limitations and defects, but there is nothing sinful about it.
(Harijan, 1933).
I believe in Varnashrama (caste system) which is the law of life. The law
of Varna (color and / or caste) is nothing but the law of conservation of
energy. Why should my son not be scavenger if I am one? (Harijan,
3-6-1947).
He (Shudra, low caste) may not be called a Brahmin (uppermost caste),
though he (Shudra) may have all the qualities of a Brahmin in this birth.
And it is a good thing for him (Shudra) not to arrogate a Varna (caste) to
which he is not born. It is a sign of true humility. (Young India,
11-24-1927).
According to Hindu belief, he who practices a profession which does not
belong to him by birth, does violence to himself and becomes a degraded
being by not living up to the Varna (caste) of his birth. (Young India,
11-14-1927).
As years go by, the conviction is daily growing upon me that Varna (caste)
is the law of man's being, and therefore, caste is necessary for
Christians and Muslims as it has been necessary for Hinduism, and has been
its saving grace. (Speech at Trivandrum, (Collection of Speeches),
Ramanath Suman (1932)).
I would resist with my life the separation of "Untouchables" from the
caste Hindus. The problem of the "Untouchable" community is of
comparatively little importance. (London Round Table Conference 1931.)
I call myself a Snatana man, one who firmly believes in the caste system.
(Dharma Manthan, p 4).
I believe in caste division determined by birth and the very root of caste
division lies in birth. (Varna Vyavastha, p 76-77).
The four castes and the four stages of life are things to be attained by
birth alone. (Dharma Manthan, p 5).
Caste means the predetermination of a man's profession. Caste implies that
a man must practice only the profession of his ancestors for his
livelihood. (Varna Vyavstha, p 28, 56, 68).
Shudra only serves the higher castes as a matter of religious duty and who
will never own any property. The gods will shower down flowers on him.
(Varna Vyavastha, p 15).
I have noticed that the very basis of our thought have been severely
shaken by Western civilization which is the creation of the Satan. (Dharma
Manthan, p 65).
How is it possible that the Antyaja (outcastes) should have the right to
enter all the existing temples? As long as the law of caste and karma has
the chief place in the Hindu religion, to say that every Hindu can enter
every temple is a thing that is not possible today. (Gandhi Sikshan, Vol.
11, p 132).
There are I am sorry to say, many Hindu temples in our midst in this
country, which are no better than brothels. The caste system can't be
said to be bad because it does not allow inter-dining and inter-marriages
in different castes. (Gandhi by Shiru, p129).
The caste system, in my opinion, has a scientific basis. Reason does not
revolt against it. It has disadvantages. Caste creates a social and moral
restraint - I can find no reason for their abolition. To abolish caste is
to demolish Hinduism. There is nothing to fight against the Varnasharma
(caste system). I don't believe the caste system to be an odious and
vicious dogma. It has its limitations and defects, but there is nothing
sinful about it. (Harijan, 1933).
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
-------------------
Yashwant
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->These quotes would suggest that Gandhi was a life-time proponent and
practicener of untouchability and a rigid varna system.
That is not true.
Thse quotes judge Gandhi unfairly. Tha fact is that he was one of
the most important contributer to the realization that
the "untouchables" have not been justly treated in India. He
specifically worked for the untouchables. He toured all over India
for this task, including my own town in 1933.
There is a view, that only the work of an "untouchable" should be
considered to be of value towards improvements of conditions of
their community. This is unfair. Let Gandhi's work be acknowledged.
Gandhi's writings should not to be taken as his final word, and
certainly not as a scripture to his followers. He himself wrote so
in his autobiography.
I know many people, even today, who would not clean their own
toilets. Indian students who come to USA are surprized and shocked
that they are expected to clean their own toilets. Gandhi, not only
cleaned toilets himself, he made his wife do that.
One of Gandhi's son (presumably a Vaishya, although I'll have to
check that in orthodox texts) married a daughter of Rajaji, very
well known to be a Brahmin, in gross violation of the anoloma rules.
He adapted a "Harijan" girl, and raised her for some time.
Gandhi wasn't a great scholar of Hindu shastras, in fact he wasn't a
scholar. But he was an independent thinker, and by his personal
example, he altered Hinduism itself. He thus, in a sense, become a
law-giver.
Gandhi was simply wrong about the four varnas. That fact is that the
existance of four well-defined varnas today is a myth. The
communities (endogamus groups or biradaris) exist; but there is no
reasonable way to classify them into four varnas such that a
majority of the people (or scholars) would agree.
I have carefully analyzed the royal dynasties of Kashmir, since in
case of Kashmir we do have a detailed chronicle. In an overwhelming
majority of cases, the royal families were definitely not of
Kshatriya descent.
There are several ways of judging a community's varna. According to
orthodox texts, Swami Vivekananda, Dr. Rajendra Prasad (President),
Sardar Patel, Chhatrapati Shivaji, etc. were all shudras. The fact
is that the varna system has been long obsolete. Even when it may
have been applicable, there were numerous exceptions and thus the
authors of dharma-shastras were forces to classify these communities
among the varna-sanakras.
Even though Gandhi did write in support of the four varnas, the fact
is that by his actions, he demonstrated the inapplicability of the
varna system. He was a philosoper, a soldier, a merchant and a
sweeper at the same time. From what I have heard from people who
were alive in his time, his leadership was nearly universally
acknowledged by Hindus, and many non-Hindus as well.
Yashwant
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
---------------------------
Shiva Shankar
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Gandhi was against untouchability, yes, but certainly very much for caste.
He was all for "granting untouchables" some kind of honorary Shudra
status, but that was about it.
I suggest you see the film "Badlav ke chaah" by V.Rawat where he
interviews Bhagwan Das - author of "Main Bhangi Hoon" and probably the
greatest Indian alive today. In the film Bhagwan Das clearly explains
Gandhi's point of view - he says that yes Gandhi did clean his own toilet,
and made visitors to his ashrams do so - but several times, at least twice
in speeches, urged people of the Bhangi caste to do their duty (of
cleaning toilets) lest they be born in their next lives cleaning even more
filth!
Surely Bhagwan Das is more of an "expert" on these matters than
you can ever hope to be (not having been born Bhangi, or Mehtar, Jamedar,
Valmiki, Arundattiyar, Dom ... or the many castes doomed to clean by
virtue of Hindu "dharma" dictates). However I congradulate you on the
disquiet you obviously feel about this whole evil, though I do wish you
would not play firefighter for Gandhi.
Shiva Shankar.
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
------------------------------
Yashwant
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->You want to take a quote by an activist and use that to judge
Gandhi. You want to judge Gandhi exclusively by using carefully
clipped quotes. What about what Gandhi did for years? Why do want to
ignore that?
Yes, I am not a Bhangi. That should not make that fact that Gandhi
worked to eradicate untouchability, irrelevanat.
Does one have to be a Dalit to do anything to impact them?
I did work as a janitor's assistant as a student in USA at one time,
incidentally. That is a job that needs to be done, and somebody
needs to do it. Late Jaiprakash Narayan did it when he was a student
in USA.
It would appear to me that many leaders, though themselves Dalit,
have not done much to help Dalits.
Hindu dharma does not dictate. Social customs and economic
conditions do. Hinduism is not based on a book, it is not even a
religion. The dharmashatras are not scriptures, they are opinions of
specific scholars.
In Hinduism, anyone may teach a new philosophy, and can become an
acharya of a new sect. Basavanna, a Brahmin, started the Lingayat
sect, that rejects brahmanical traditions including the vedas.
Ghasidas, a dalit, started the Satnami sect. Kabir, who was not
even a raised a Hindu, started Kabirpanth. Ammachi Amritanandamayi
of Kerala, a dalit, has started her own sampradaya.
Christian and Islamic texts have been used to justify slavery. That
doesn't mean that a Christian or Muslim has to accept slavery today.
Those who are opposed to slavery today, are not expected to renounce
the Bible, if they are Christian.
I would disagree with Gandhi about several things, however I think
he deserves due credit for he did.
Yashwant
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
----------------------------------------
Joe
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Late Swami Saswatikananda, a leader of the Ezhava
community in Kerala told a few years ago that caste is
the foundation of Hinduism, the main ideology.
So he was calling himself and followeres as Sree
Narayanites, the dusciples of Sree Narayana Guru.
One is born in a lower case because of his sins in the
past life. So without many births how can one change
that?
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
---------------------------------------------------------
Shiva Shankar
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin--><i>On Sat, 29 Oct 2005, ymalaiya wrote:
> I did work as a janitor's assistant as a student in USA at one time,
> incidentally. That is a job that needs to be done, and somebody needs to
> do it. Late Jaiprakash Narayan did it when he was a student in USA.
</i>
Yes, we should hang our heads in shame that while it is all right to work
as a janitor in the US of A, here people doing a similar job are treated
as "untouchables". Moreover it is a job reserved for some by birth!
And it explains why you never will or why Mr.Narayan never had
contemplated doing this job "that needs to be done" here in India.
<i>
> Hindu dharma does not dictate. Social customs and economic conditions
> do. Hinduism is not based on a book, it is not even a religion. The
> dharmashatras are not scriptures, they are opinions of specific
> scholars.
</i>
So what if Hinduism is not based on A book? You say it as if it is some
kind of virtue. Give me Buddhism any day, based on the Dhammapada, and
which does dictate that all people are equal and should be treated as
such. Give me the Dhammapada any day which does dictate that there are no
virtues (nor its lack) that are inherited by birth.
<i>
> In Hinduism, anyone may teach a new philosophy, and can become an
> acharya of a new sect. Basavanna, a Brahmin, started the Lingayat
> sect, that rejects brahmanical traditions including the vedas.
> Ghasidas, a dalit, started the Satnami sect. Kabir, who was not
> even a raised a Hindu, started Kabirpanth. Ammachi Amritanandamayi
> of Kerala, a dalit, has started her own sampradaya.
</i>
So what explains the assault on Dalits by caste hindus? What explains the
gradation based on birth? (And Amritanandamayi is not Dalit.)
<i>
> Christian and Islamic texts have been used to justify slavery. That
> doesn't mean that a Christian or Muslim has to accept slavery today.
> Those who are opposed to slavery today, are not expected to renounce the
> Bible, if they are Christian.
</i>
You ought to be more bothered about your religion, viz. Hinduism. Starting
with the Rig Veda (where the brahmin is born from the mouth of Brahma, and
the Shudra from the feet) all hindu texts, Gita etc. are obsessed with
"duty", i.e. caste duty.
<i>
> I would disagree with Gandhi about several things, however I think he
> deserves due credit for he did.
</i>
There were four vows every Congress man and woman had to take to belong to
the party - wear khadi, spin the wheel every day etc. When Ambedkar
suggested to Gandhi that congress people should also be asked to take the
vow that they will not practice untouchability, Gandhi refused!
Yes let us give Gandhi the credit he deserves, but battling caste
is certainly not what he did.
Shiva Shankar.
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->