12-04-2005, 10:03 PM
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Indo-Asian News Service
New Delhi, December 2
Transcript of the interview given by Anil Matherani, Indian ambassador to Croatia and a former functionary of the Congress party's foreign affairs cell:
Q. Can you narrate the sequence of events?
A. Former Iraqi vice-president Taha Ramadan visited India on Nov 27, 2000, and Natwar Singh accompanied Congress president Sonia Gandhi to the meeting with him. After this, there was talk that during the delegation's visit, the oil minister met Natwar separately. Natwar too had said that they had had a meeting.
Q. Then what happened?
A. After the visit, Natwar activated an invitation that was given to him by Iraqi ambassador Salah Al Mukhtar. The invitation letter was addressed to Natwar in person by Iraqi deputy Prime Minister Tariq Aziz.
He activated the invitation because when Sonia Gandhi met Ramadan during his India trip, an invitation to visit Iraq was extended to the Congress president and the Congress delegation.
Q. Why did the invite come to Natwar instead of going to the Congress president?
A. Exactly. The invitation letter was addressed to Natwar as the Iraqi ambassador was close to him and Natwar dealt directly with him. He activated the invitation and then went to the Congress president. After this, she approved a four-member delegation. You know all the names.
Q. What happened after that?
A. This was told to the Iraqi ambassador and the dates were fixed. The Congress party purchased tickets for the four-member delegation on the Royal Jordanian Airlines and gifts were also purchased. A letter was drafted on behalf of the Congress president by Natwar for Saddam Hussein. Then the Iraqi ambassador was told to go ahead and fix the visit.
In the meantime, Natwar also told the Iraqi ambassador that perhaps his son would accompany him. After all, the visas had to be given by the Iraqi embassy.
Q. Did he also talk about Andleeb Sehgal with the ambassador?
A. Till then I had not heard about this cousin at all. I am telling you about Jagat Singh. Natwar had mentioned that his son might accompany him. He had said that it would be a difficult journey to Iraq and that he would like his son to join him.
When we reached the airport, Jagat Singh appeared at the airport and took the flight with us.
Q. What happened when you reached Amman?
A. At the airport, we were received by an Indian embassy official and brought to the Intercontinental Hotel. After we assembled in the lobby, Sehgal appeared.
Q. What did Natwar say?
A. He was introduced to the delegation by Natwar as his son's cousin, somebody who was familiar with Iraq and whose visit-by coincidence-was at the same time as ours.
Q. Didn't this make all of you suspicious about Sehgal?
A. Who knew who this character was? We never suspected Natwar and who would suspect him? People were afraid of him and respected him because of his proximity to Sonia Gandhi. He was above board. You could never have an iota of doubt about his credibility. So where was the question of suspicion?
In the evening, the then Indian ambassador to Jordan hosted a reception for us, where Jagat and Sehgal were present. Subodh Kant Sahay, who was also going to Iraq, was there. He hung around us and wanted to be a part of the delegation. (However, Sahay told India Today that he had nothing to do with the oil vouchers and never wanted to get on board the Congress delegation.)
Q. Who else was there in Amman?
A. In the hotel, I spotted Jamil Saidi. I don't know whether he was staying in the same hotel or not.
Q. Did they mention why Sehgal was in Amman and why he was going with them to Baghdad?
A. No, till then everything was happening according to plan. Natwar had said he was taking his son for a difficult journey and had got Jagat's cousin, who knew Iraq, for company. At that time, Natwar's credibility was at its highest. Till then, they (Jagat and Sehgal) were not part of the official four-member delegation.
Q. What happened when you reached Baghdad?
A. We were received by R.Dayakar, the then Indian ambassador to Baghdad, and Iraqi officials. We were taken to the Al Rashid Hotel. It was essentially the Baath party hotel and all the people who stayed there were the guests of the Baath party.
This was when the transition took place. Jagat became a part of the delegation and checked in with us. Sehgal did the same. You can't check into this hotel unless you are part of the delegation.
Q. Did Natwar tell them to do so?
A. Exactly. As we reached Iraq, all directions and instructions were issued by the leader of the delegation (Natwar). The Iraqi leadership was in touch only with him and our embassy took instructions only from the leader of the delegation.
His word was final. None of us had any contact with the Baath party or knew any official of the party, but apparently Natwar had an old friendship with Aziz, which he had mentioned even before leaving.
Q. What happened at the meetings with Aziz and Ramadan?
A. The members of the Congress delegation increased from four to six and then the discussions took place. First there was a meeting with Aziz, where these two (Jagat and Sehgal) were present and were introduced by the leader of the delegation. The discussion with Aziz was general, about the relationship with the Congress and the no-fly zone.
At the meeting, Aziz suggested that other meetings would also be organised for the delegation. He also mentioned that it took seven days before an audience could be arranged with Saddam.
Q. Did he say anything about oil?
A. There was no discussion on oil or vouchers, but these two (Jagat and Sehgal) were introduced.
Q. Are you sure you are not suffering from selective amnesia?
A. Believe me, I am not. Everything I am telling you is a fact. After the meeting we looked around Baghdad. Dayakar had organised a reception for us. Some Indians in Baghdad and Iraqi officials were also present, but nobody too senior. Off and on, Sahay would come to see us at all these places, but I don't recollect him being present at any of our meetings.
Q. What were Jagat and Sehgal doing all this while?
A. After the meetings, they would disappear. Nobody knew what they were doing. They kept to themselves - Natwar, Jagat and Sehgal. What they discussed was confined to Natwar's room. It was a very closed group. By that time it was becoming quite clear that they were looking for trade.
Q. Why do you say that?
A. Because of Sehgal's activities it was clear that he was a businessman looking to do some business in Iraq, that Jagat was helping him and that they were partners. One can understand Jagat accompanying his father even if he was not allowed in the delegation, but what was the point of bringing a cousin? By then the delegation had become aware of their activities.
Q. Did the other delegation members talk about it?
A. No, you don't question what the head of your delegation is doing. You take it as it comes. All instructions were given by him.
Q. What happened at the meeting with the Iraqi vice-president?
A. At the meeting with Ramadan, Sonia Gandhi's letter was given and on Jan 21, 2001, the Iraqi radio reported what Natwar said during the discussion. At that meeting the two (Jagat and Sehgal) were present and no business was transacted.
It had been planned to give an impression to the Iraqi leadership that the delegation had a political component (Natwar and three others) and a business component (Jagat and Sehgal). Perhaps they had intimated to the Iraqis what they intended to do.
Q. Did they meet the oil minister?
A. I don't remember, but there was a meeting with the trade minister and commerce minister. All subsequent meetings were arranged by Aziz.
Q. Didn't any member find out that oil vouchers would be allocated?
A. I don't recall anything being said about oil vouchers at the meeting. But I must tell you that Saidi reappeared in Baghdad. I remember seeing him in the lobby of the Al Rashid Hotel.
Q. But he is denying it. Did he have something to do with it?
A. Yes, he had something to do with it. Hundred percent. All of them were together - Jagat, Sehgal and this Jamil character. (However, Jamil Saidi denied that he was in Baghdad. "I met them in Jordan and that's about it. Some people are trying to fix me. I've been threatened with dire consequences," he told India Today.)
Q. We were told you had separate meetings with Jagat and Sehgal.
A. I was constantly with the delegation and had no separate calls with any Iraqi official.
Q. You were close to Natwar. Didn't he mention oil at any time?
A. We are talking about 2001. I was never close to him. Later, when there were deaths in his family, I met him and gave him solace. In fact, when Sonia Gandhi was going to Iceland and the US, Natwar ensured that I didn't become a part of the delegation.
Q. How did the allocation of the oil vouchers take place?
A. When Natwar introduced his son and Sehgal to all the Iraqi officials, he didn't have to say anything. All that he had to do was to show that they were in the delegation that they were his son and his cousin, and therefore it was confidential.
They could go later and do whatever business they wanted to. You don't have to say anything to the face. The fact that they were introduced was a clear signal to the Iraqis.
Q. Did they talk at any time about the oil vouchers?
A. This was kept completely under wraps. You don't need to have the Congress delegation present to get the vouchers.
Q. This means the groundwork was laid during the visit of the Congress delegation.
A. Exactly. The groundwork was laid at that time, and then one could come back and accept whatever vouchers were given. The important thing was to take that delegation and have these two (Jagat and Sehgal) in it and to have them introduced formally.
Q. What happened after you came back?
A. When we got back, these two also came back to Jordan in the same caravan. Then they (Jagat and Sehgal) stayed back in Amman.
Q. Why did they stay back? Did they say anything?
A. No, but the entire operation was managed through the Iraqi embassy in Delhi and in Jordan. The embassy in Jordan was a key player, just as it was in case of oil vouchers. You can make these connections. 'Moti baat yeh hai ki' the green signal for the vouchers was given during this visit (January 2001).
The Iraqis needed a green signal (for oil allocation) and it was provided by Natwar. He organised the delegation and introduced the ones who would execute whatever was given.
Q. So the vouchers didn't go to the Congress, but to Natwar.
A. Naturally. The fact is that in this case both (oil voucher allottees) are possibly the same. In my view, both are exactly the same. One has been given to him (Natwar) by name and the other is in the name of the Congress party. One for Natwar's personal services - don't forget that he is the one who has been espousing the Iraqi cause all along. He has been a vociferous supporter of the Iraqi regime and of Saddam. The other voucher the Iraqis kept for the friendly Congress party.
Q. Aditya Khanna's name has also been mentioned.
A. I don't know Aditya Khanna, but his father Vipin is very close to Natwar.
Q. How can you say that?
A. When the prime minister of Luxembourg called on Sonia Gandhi in 1999-2000, Natwar brought Vipin Khanna to 10 Janpath. This guy need not have been present at that meeting as he was an honorary consul-general, not an ambassador.
Q. But Natwar maintains he did not know about his name being linked to the oil-for-food scandal.
A. When Congress spokesperson Anand Sharma was asked at a press conference on Oct 16, 2004, about the Iraq Survey Group, he had replied, "It is not to be taken seriously. It is factually incorrect." The fact that Congress' name has figured was known to them.
I refuse to believe when Natwar says he knew nothing about it. Of course, he knew all these things from the beginning but preferred to keep quiet. He told a select group that he had known for some time about his and Congress' name being there but preferred not to react. That Natwar and the Congress never knew is hogwash.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
New Delhi, December 2
Transcript of the interview given by Anil Matherani, Indian ambassador to Croatia and a former functionary of the Congress party's foreign affairs cell:
Q. Can you narrate the sequence of events?
A. Former Iraqi vice-president Taha Ramadan visited India on Nov 27, 2000, and Natwar Singh accompanied Congress president Sonia Gandhi to the meeting with him. After this, there was talk that during the delegation's visit, the oil minister met Natwar separately. Natwar too had said that they had had a meeting.
Q. Then what happened?
A. After the visit, Natwar activated an invitation that was given to him by Iraqi ambassador Salah Al Mukhtar. The invitation letter was addressed to Natwar in person by Iraqi deputy Prime Minister Tariq Aziz.
He activated the invitation because when Sonia Gandhi met Ramadan during his India trip, an invitation to visit Iraq was extended to the Congress president and the Congress delegation.
Q. Why did the invite come to Natwar instead of going to the Congress president?
A. Exactly. The invitation letter was addressed to Natwar as the Iraqi ambassador was close to him and Natwar dealt directly with him. He activated the invitation and then went to the Congress president. After this, she approved a four-member delegation. You know all the names.
Q. What happened after that?
A. This was told to the Iraqi ambassador and the dates were fixed. The Congress party purchased tickets for the four-member delegation on the Royal Jordanian Airlines and gifts were also purchased. A letter was drafted on behalf of the Congress president by Natwar for Saddam Hussein. Then the Iraqi ambassador was told to go ahead and fix the visit.
In the meantime, Natwar also told the Iraqi ambassador that perhaps his son would accompany him. After all, the visas had to be given by the Iraqi embassy.
Q. Did he also talk about Andleeb Sehgal with the ambassador?
A. Till then I had not heard about this cousin at all. I am telling you about Jagat Singh. Natwar had mentioned that his son might accompany him. He had said that it would be a difficult journey to Iraq and that he would like his son to join him.
When we reached the airport, Jagat Singh appeared at the airport and took the flight with us.
Q. What happened when you reached Amman?
A. At the airport, we were received by an Indian embassy official and brought to the Intercontinental Hotel. After we assembled in the lobby, Sehgal appeared.
Q. What did Natwar say?
A. He was introduced to the delegation by Natwar as his son's cousin, somebody who was familiar with Iraq and whose visit-by coincidence-was at the same time as ours.
Q. Didn't this make all of you suspicious about Sehgal?
A. Who knew who this character was? We never suspected Natwar and who would suspect him? People were afraid of him and respected him because of his proximity to Sonia Gandhi. He was above board. You could never have an iota of doubt about his credibility. So where was the question of suspicion?
In the evening, the then Indian ambassador to Jordan hosted a reception for us, where Jagat and Sehgal were present. Subodh Kant Sahay, who was also going to Iraq, was there. He hung around us and wanted to be a part of the delegation. (However, Sahay told India Today that he had nothing to do with the oil vouchers and never wanted to get on board the Congress delegation.)
Q. Who else was there in Amman?
A. In the hotel, I spotted Jamil Saidi. I don't know whether he was staying in the same hotel or not.
Q. Did they mention why Sehgal was in Amman and why he was going with them to Baghdad?
A. No, till then everything was happening according to plan. Natwar had said he was taking his son for a difficult journey and had got Jagat's cousin, who knew Iraq, for company. At that time, Natwar's credibility was at its highest. Till then, they (Jagat and Sehgal) were not part of the official four-member delegation.
Q. What happened when you reached Baghdad?
A. We were received by R.Dayakar, the then Indian ambassador to Baghdad, and Iraqi officials. We were taken to the Al Rashid Hotel. It was essentially the Baath party hotel and all the people who stayed there were the guests of the Baath party.
This was when the transition took place. Jagat became a part of the delegation and checked in with us. Sehgal did the same. You can't check into this hotel unless you are part of the delegation.
Q. Did Natwar tell them to do so?
A. Exactly. As we reached Iraq, all directions and instructions were issued by the leader of the delegation (Natwar). The Iraqi leadership was in touch only with him and our embassy took instructions only from the leader of the delegation.
His word was final. None of us had any contact with the Baath party or knew any official of the party, but apparently Natwar had an old friendship with Aziz, which he had mentioned even before leaving.
Q. What happened at the meetings with Aziz and Ramadan?
A. The members of the Congress delegation increased from four to six and then the discussions took place. First there was a meeting with Aziz, where these two (Jagat and Sehgal) were present and were introduced by the leader of the delegation. The discussion with Aziz was general, about the relationship with the Congress and the no-fly zone.
At the meeting, Aziz suggested that other meetings would also be organised for the delegation. He also mentioned that it took seven days before an audience could be arranged with Saddam.
Q. Did he say anything about oil?
A. There was no discussion on oil or vouchers, but these two (Jagat and Sehgal) were introduced.
Q. Are you sure you are not suffering from selective amnesia?
A. Believe me, I am not. Everything I am telling you is a fact. After the meeting we looked around Baghdad. Dayakar had organised a reception for us. Some Indians in Baghdad and Iraqi officials were also present, but nobody too senior. Off and on, Sahay would come to see us at all these places, but I don't recollect him being present at any of our meetings.
Q. What were Jagat and Sehgal doing all this while?
A. After the meetings, they would disappear. Nobody knew what they were doing. They kept to themselves - Natwar, Jagat and Sehgal. What they discussed was confined to Natwar's room. It was a very closed group. By that time it was becoming quite clear that they were looking for trade.
Q. Why do you say that?
A. Because of Sehgal's activities it was clear that he was a businessman looking to do some business in Iraq, that Jagat was helping him and that they were partners. One can understand Jagat accompanying his father even if he was not allowed in the delegation, but what was the point of bringing a cousin? By then the delegation had become aware of their activities.
Q. Did the other delegation members talk about it?
A. No, you don't question what the head of your delegation is doing. You take it as it comes. All instructions were given by him.
Q. What happened at the meeting with the Iraqi vice-president?
A. At the meeting with Ramadan, Sonia Gandhi's letter was given and on Jan 21, 2001, the Iraqi radio reported what Natwar said during the discussion. At that meeting the two (Jagat and Sehgal) were present and no business was transacted.
It had been planned to give an impression to the Iraqi leadership that the delegation had a political component (Natwar and three others) and a business component (Jagat and Sehgal). Perhaps they had intimated to the Iraqis what they intended to do.
Q. Did they meet the oil minister?
A. I don't remember, but there was a meeting with the trade minister and commerce minister. All subsequent meetings were arranged by Aziz.
Q. Didn't any member find out that oil vouchers would be allocated?
A. I don't recall anything being said about oil vouchers at the meeting. But I must tell you that Saidi reappeared in Baghdad. I remember seeing him in the lobby of the Al Rashid Hotel.
Q. But he is denying it. Did he have something to do with it?
A. Yes, he had something to do with it. Hundred percent. All of them were together - Jagat, Sehgal and this Jamil character. (However, Jamil Saidi denied that he was in Baghdad. "I met them in Jordan and that's about it. Some people are trying to fix me. I've been threatened with dire consequences," he told India Today.)
Q. We were told you had separate meetings with Jagat and Sehgal.
A. I was constantly with the delegation and had no separate calls with any Iraqi official.
Q. You were close to Natwar. Didn't he mention oil at any time?
A. We are talking about 2001. I was never close to him. Later, when there were deaths in his family, I met him and gave him solace. In fact, when Sonia Gandhi was going to Iceland and the US, Natwar ensured that I didn't become a part of the delegation.
Q. How did the allocation of the oil vouchers take place?
A. When Natwar introduced his son and Sehgal to all the Iraqi officials, he didn't have to say anything. All that he had to do was to show that they were in the delegation that they were his son and his cousin, and therefore it was confidential.
They could go later and do whatever business they wanted to. You don't have to say anything to the face. The fact that they were introduced was a clear signal to the Iraqis.
Q. Did they talk at any time about the oil vouchers?
A. This was kept completely under wraps. You don't need to have the Congress delegation present to get the vouchers.
Q. This means the groundwork was laid during the visit of the Congress delegation.
A. Exactly. The groundwork was laid at that time, and then one could come back and accept whatever vouchers were given. The important thing was to take that delegation and have these two (Jagat and Sehgal) in it and to have them introduced formally.
Q. What happened after you came back?
A. When we got back, these two also came back to Jordan in the same caravan. Then they (Jagat and Sehgal) stayed back in Amman.
Q. Why did they stay back? Did they say anything?
A. No, but the entire operation was managed through the Iraqi embassy in Delhi and in Jordan. The embassy in Jordan was a key player, just as it was in case of oil vouchers. You can make these connections. 'Moti baat yeh hai ki' the green signal for the vouchers was given during this visit (January 2001).
The Iraqis needed a green signal (for oil allocation) and it was provided by Natwar. He organised the delegation and introduced the ones who would execute whatever was given.
Q. So the vouchers didn't go to the Congress, but to Natwar.
A. Naturally. The fact is that in this case both (oil voucher allottees) are possibly the same. In my view, both are exactly the same. One has been given to him (Natwar) by name and the other is in the name of the Congress party. One for Natwar's personal services - don't forget that he is the one who has been espousing the Iraqi cause all along. He has been a vociferous supporter of the Iraqi regime and of Saddam. The other voucher the Iraqis kept for the friendly Congress party.
Q. Aditya Khanna's name has also been mentioned.
A. I don't know Aditya Khanna, but his father Vipin is very close to Natwar.
Q. How can you say that?
A. When the prime minister of Luxembourg called on Sonia Gandhi in 1999-2000, Natwar brought Vipin Khanna to 10 Janpath. This guy need not have been present at that meeting as he was an honorary consul-general, not an ambassador.
Q. But Natwar maintains he did not know about his name being linked to the oil-for-food scandal.
A. When Congress spokesperson Anand Sharma was asked at a press conference on Oct 16, 2004, about the Iraq Survey Group, he had replied, "It is not to be taken seriously. It is factually incorrect." The fact that Congress' name has figured was known to them.
I refuse to believe when Natwar says he knew nothing about it. Of course, he knew all these things from the beginning but preferred to keep quiet. He told a select group that he had known for some time about his and Congress' name being there but preferred not to react. That Natwar and the Congress never knew is hogwash.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->