04-28-2006, 06:53 PM
Interesting discussion on Rajeev S blog:
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->koenraad elst send the following mail that risa types want answers to
the following. will someone on RISA please post my questions there, too?
begin quote from some risa type
<!--QuoteBegin--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->
(About the terms "Dalit" "Harijan", "SC", quote
I will answer your question with a question: How many of the major
temples in India that are patronized by caste Hindus have ex-untouchable
priests of any self-designation (Harijan, etc.)? How many Hindu leaders
who are ex-untouchables of any self-designation (Harijan, etc.) are
there who count significant numbers of "touchables" amongst their
followers? How many ex-untouchables of any self-designation (Harijan,
etc.) sit on the governing board of the VHP? How many ex-untouchables
of any self-designation (Harijan, etc.) hold high leadership positions
within the RSS? ...and, while we are at it, why is it that Hindu
ex-untouchables always seem to form separate sects whose membership is
predominantly or exclusively made up of others like themselves rather
than caste Hindus? And if the leaders of such sects desired the
recognition and respect of caste Hindu leaders, what name do you think
they would have to call themselves by, "Dalit" or "Harijan"?
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
end quote from some risa type
sure enough. as soon as they answer the following:
1. how many major churches in the us that are patronized by whites have
any black priests or leaders?
2. how many christian leaders who are black have significant numbers of
whites among their followers? how about vice versa? how many blacks are
members of cults like pat robertson's, oral roberts', and so forth?
3. how many blacks sit on the governing board of the mormons? of the
vatican? of the catholic church in the us? of the southern baptists? of
the unitarians? of the christian scientists? of the moonies? of the
episcopalians? of the methodists? of the seventh day adventists?
4. how many blacks hold high leadership positions in the salvation army,
which is the closest equivalent to the RSS? how many hispanics do? how
many asians do? same questions for the republican party? the democratic
national council?
5. why is it that blacks always seem to form separate
sects/cults/churches whose membership is predominantly or exclusively
made up of blacks rather than whites? same question for chinese,
koreans, filipinos, hispanics, etc?
6. if the leaders desired the recognition and respect of whites what
name do you think they call themselves by, black, hispanic, korean,
chinese etc or just christian?
talk of people living in glass houses! the christian church is far more
oppressive and discriminatory than any hindu ever was! so is american
society in general.
heal thyself first before pontificating to others!
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
A reader response:
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Rajeev,
1. Hindus have organised themselves for centuries around a loose
structure of duties that are maintained through descent. Being a priest
may be very prestigious in other faiths but in Hinduism it is an onerous
responsibility. It is not a particularly attractive position that
someone would aspire to. The austerities and discipline required is
beyond the reach of most people
2. Brahmanas are by no means the only priestly jati. In TN there are
many groups of non-brahmin priests - the pandarams (who run temples all
over suoth TN and in Malaysia and Sri Lanka perform vedic rituals but do
not wear a sacred thread. and then there are sivacharis, and several
otrher classes of non-vedic priests officiating at sakthi/amman temples.
sometimes the same temple that has a sivachari performing regular
rituals may invite a brahmin priest once a year for a vedic ritual.
3. In the Jagannath temple at Puri */the brahmin priests are not allowed
inside the garba griha of Sri Jagannatha. /*The privilege is restricted
to the tradtional guardian tribe whose priests are called the /badus/.
4. In TN there are many temples among the smaller 'specialised' shrines
where people of all castes worship. These could be a local deity like
the village protecting Ayyanar or Muniswaran, or Karuppannaswami or many
otehr Ammans. Sri Jayendra Sarasvati has gone out of his way to frequent
these shrines and participate in the local ritual taking prasadam from
the hands of Adi-Dravidar priests.
5. The VHP has gone out of its way to train priests from the tibes and
dalit communities and has the lal langots (red breechcloutwalas) in
twists because of this. Because caste while a minor facet of Hindu
practice is the bedrock upon which Hinduhaters have built their
theories. Take away caste (by no means an easy task) and the entire
rationale for hating Hindus collapses
Of course these crooks will find something new to criticise within Hinduism.
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->koenraad elst send the following mail that risa types want answers to
the following. will someone on RISA please post my questions there, too?
begin quote from some risa type
<!--QuoteBegin--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->
(About the terms "Dalit" "Harijan", "SC", quote
I will answer your question with a question: How many of the major
temples in India that are patronized by caste Hindus have ex-untouchable
priests of any self-designation (Harijan, etc.)? How many Hindu leaders
who are ex-untouchables of any self-designation (Harijan, etc.) are
there who count significant numbers of "touchables" amongst their
followers? How many ex-untouchables of any self-designation (Harijan,
etc.) sit on the governing board of the VHP? How many ex-untouchables
of any self-designation (Harijan, etc.) hold high leadership positions
within the RSS? ...and, while we are at it, why is it that Hindu
ex-untouchables always seem to form separate sects whose membership is
predominantly or exclusively made up of others like themselves rather
than caste Hindus? And if the leaders of such sects desired the
recognition and respect of caste Hindu leaders, what name do you think
they would have to call themselves by, "Dalit" or "Harijan"?
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
end quote from some risa type
sure enough. as soon as they answer the following:
1. how many major churches in the us that are patronized by whites have
any black priests or leaders?
2. how many christian leaders who are black have significant numbers of
whites among their followers? how about vice versa? how many blacks are
members of cults like pat robertson's, oral roberts', and so forth?
3. how many blacks sit on the governing board of the mormons? of the
vatican? of the catholic church in the us? of the southern baptists? of
the unitarians? of the christian scientists? of the moonies? of the
episcopalians? of the methodists? of the seventh day adventists?
4. how many blacks hold high leadership positions in the salvation army,
which is the closest equivalent to the RSS? how many hispanics do? how
many asians do? same questions for the republican party? the democratic
national council?
5. why is it that blacks always seem to form separate
sects/cults/churches whose membership is predominantly or exclusively
made up of blacks rather than whites? same question for chinese,
koreans, filipinos, hispanics, etc?
6. if the leaders desired the recognition and respect of whites what
name do you think they call themselves by, black, hispanic, korean,
chinese etc or just christian?
talk of people living in glass houses! the christian church is far more
oppressive and discriminatory than any hindu ever was! so is american
society in general.
heal thyself first before pontificating to others!
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
A reader response:
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Rajeev,
1. Hindus have organised themselves for centuries around a loose
structure of duties that are maintained through descent. Being a priest
may be very prestigious in other faiths but in Hinduism it is an onerous
responsibility. It is not a particularly attractive position that
someone would aspire to. The austerities and discipline required is
beyond the reach of most people
2. Brahmanas are by no means the only priestly jati. In TN there are
many groups of non-brahmin priests - the pandarams (who run temples all
over suoth TN and in Malaysia and Sri Lanka perform vedic rituals but do
not wear a sacred thread. and then there are sivacharis, and several
otrher classes of non-vedic priests officiating at sakthi/amman temples.
sometimes the same temple that has a sivachari performing regular
rituals may invite a brahmin priest once a year for a vedic ritual.
3. In the Jagannath temple at Puri */the brahmin priests are not allowed
inside the garba griha of Sri Jagannatha. /*The privilege is restricted
to the tradtional guardian tribe whose priests are called the /badus/.
4. In TN there are many temples among the smaller 'specialised' shrines
where people of all castes worship. These could be a local deity like
the village protecting Ayyanar or Muniswaran, or Karuppannaswami or many
otehr Ammans. Sri Jayendra Sarasvati has gone out of his way to frequent
these shrines and participate in the local ritual taking prasadam from
the hands of Adi-Dravidar priests.
5. The VHP has gone out of its way to train priests from the tibes and
dalit communities and has the lal langots (red breechcloutwalas) in
twists because of this. Because caste while a minor facet of Hindu
practice is the bedrock upon which Hinduhaters have built their
theories. Take away caste (by no means an easy task) and the entire
rationale for hating Hindus collapses
Of course these crooks will find something new to criticise within Hinduism.
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->