03-11-2006, 06:42 PM
Dear Krishnakumar,
Greetings!
I am very very short of time these days that restricts me to reading this forum. As soon as I get the privilege of a little time, I would love to discuss the issues you have raised.
Meanwhile, I have this to say:
We all wish and believe that Hinduism is a monolithic, united 'religion' as opposed to other belief-sets like Islam or Christianity.
It is not so. In fact, Madhava Vaishnavites believe that Sankara is a Demon opposed diabolically to truth who took birth as a Brahmana to spread mischief and confusion. This string of faith is not public since it disrupts the harmony, but its there. So, your point that no body critisised the idology of another by giving a derogatory name is wrong. Pardon me Krishnakumar, but I suspect you are blissfully ignorant of INNER teachings of many of our sampradayas. These esoteric positions of various sampradayas on others are NOT publicised. NEVER. yet they are taught within the initiated at some advanced stage. Ordinarily, 99% of Hindus do NOT belong officially to any sampradaya. They do not take initiation/diksha and formerly commit themselves to a lineage or Guru. At best they just go to some modern Gurus like Sai Baba and think of him as their Gurus. But this is totally an abherration of the orthodox scriptural system which is grounded in Gurukul system and strict GURU-Sishya relationship.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->NOW MY HUMBLE OBSERVATION IS THIS SORT OF NAME CALLING AND CONCOCTED PRESENTATION OF LIFE AND TIMES OF PEOPLE PERCEIVED AS GREAT BY A GOOD LOT OF PEOPLE IS PURELY WESTERN STYLE. THIS SORTS OF THINGS U CAN IMAGINE BETWEEN A SHIA AND SUNNI. A CATHOLIC AND PROTESTENT OR ORTHODOX CHURCH. NOT BETWEEN ADVAITI VS. VISHISHTADWAITI VS. DWAITI VS. ANY BRHMO SAMAJI VS. ANY ARYA SAMAJI OR ANY BHARATHIYA SANSKRTHIC IDEOLOGISTS. HERE WE DIFFER ONLY IN IDEOLOGICAL MOORINGS AT THE SAME TIME KEEPING SAINTS AND SCHOLARS AT A HIGHER PEDESTAL. BE IT SHANKARACHARYA, RAMANUJA, MADHWACHARYA, VALLABACHARYA, NIMBARKACHARYA, CHAITANYA MAHAPRABHU, KABIR, RAHIM, RASKAN, RAVI DAS, SENA NAYI, RAMA KRISHNA PARAMA HAMSA, VIVEKANANDA, MAHARISHI DAYANANDA.
NOBODY CRITICISED THE IDEOLOGY OF ANOTHER BY GIVING A DEROGATORY NAME TO THE OPPONENT IDEOLOGY LIKE WHAT ISCKON IS DOING NOW.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Vaishnavites were persecuted by Saivite Kings; the eradication of Jainism involved violence atleast at some point of time, this violence was indulged even by Vaishnavite Kings. Our own religious history is not so bloody as that of Islam or Chrisitianity, but it is not clean as you think it is too. We can't change History, not wish it away. Sorry, but true.
What I want to say is that we have more differences than what meets the eye.
Lets take Sri Vaishnavism for example. There is a bitter feud inside the tradition split into Then Kalai (the southern school) and the Vada kalai or Northern school, with no hopes of reconciliation. The theological differences are so so minor that an outsider won't belive it, but the two schools have DUG INTO their positions so entrenchedly that it has made the whole affair very pitiable.
Take Saiva Siddhanta of South India. Glorious History and an Ocean of Scriptures. Today, the mutts are fighting, sometimes with the participation of outsiders (aka politicians and even MUSLIMS) about the control of temples. The fight is over minute details of liturgy. I have cried many times witnessing these fights. I am sure the majority on this thread are somehow insulated from witnessing these ugly quarels. If somebody is interested, I can take you to certain shrines which have instituted a calendar system for two or more groups to take turns at Puja. Be sure to be moved beyond ordinary grief that many of you will stop thinking pakistan to be the greatest enemy.. or even Christian evangelists.
Many people might not like ISKCON or their world-view point or so on.
Many have tried their best to isolate ISKCON from the Hinduism group of religions.
This is self-defeating. If we have to accuse ISKCON of 'deviation', it would reveal the amount of ignorance we have about the differences of our own sub-religions.
We will discuss in detail, ISKCON as well as discuss why at this point of time, we need to close ranks. Today, as I see it, Christian evangelists are only biting at the periphery of our Hindu society. Only the marginalised convert. But the heart of Hinduism is at a greater trouble and danger. We just cannot afford to fight with the christians and ignore a greater and more urgent danger. Ditto with ISKCON. Taking against Iskcon is like quareling over the colour of the water can when the house is on fire.
Long ago, I was involved actively in debates and activism against christian preaching and poaching. today, i am least bothered about them. Today, I am more concerned about preserving and protecting more important stuff than the disillusioned marginal people who convert. Believe me, there is more at stake than just numbers converting to christianity.
I am only so sorry that I am pathetically short of time, that I can't even review what I have written here till now. I am not sure if my writing makes sense overall, but hope you can make it out.
By the way, yesterday, I was meeting RAJIV MALHOTRA of the RISA LILA fame. We had quite some discussions. I am looking forward to discuss them with Carl, K and HH.
Greetings everyone!
Jagan Mohan.
Greetings!
I am very very short of time these days that restricts me to reading this forum. As soon as I get the privilege of a little time, I would love to discuss the issues you have raised.
Meanwhile, I have this to say:
We all wish and believe that Hinduism is a monolithic, united 'religion' as opposed to other belief-sets like Islam or Christianity.
It is not so. In fact, Madhava Vaishnavites believe that Sankara is a Demon opposed diabolically to truth who took birth as a Brahmana to spread mischief and confusion. This string of faith is not public since it disrupts the harmony, but its there. So, your point that no body critisised the idology of another by giving a derogatory name is wrong. Pardon me Krishnakumar, but I suspect you are blissfully ignorant of INNER teachings of many of our sampradayas. These esoteric positions of various sampradayas on others are NOT publicised. NEVER. yet they are taught within the initiated at some advanced stage. Ordinarily, 99% of Hindus do NOT belong officially to any sampradaya. They do not take initiation/diksha and formerly commit themselves to a lineage or Guru. At best they just go to some modern Gurus like Sai Baba and think of him as their Gurus. But this is totally an abherration of the orthodox scriptural system which is grounded in Gurukul system and strict GURU-Sishya relationship.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->NOW MY HUMBLE OBSERVATION IS THIS SORT OF NAME CALLING AND CONCOCTED PRESENTATION OF LIFE AND TIMES OF PEOPLE PERCEIVED AS GREAT BY A GOOD LOT OF PEOPLE IS PURELY WESTERN STYLE. THIS SORTS OF THINGS U CAN IMAGINE BETWEEN A SHIA AND SUNNI. A CATHOLIC AND PROTESTENT OR ORTHODOX CHURCH. NOT BETWEEN ADVAITI VS. VISHISHTADWAITI VS. DWAITI VS. ANY BRHMO SAMAJI VS. ANY ARYA SAMAJI OR ANY BHARATHIYA SANSKRTHIC IDEOLOGISTS. HERE WE DIFFER ONLY IN IDEOLOGICAL MOORINGS AT THE SAME TIME KEEPING SAINTS AND SCHOLARS AT A HIGHER PEDESTAL. BE IT SHANKARACHARYA, RAMANUJA, MADHWACHARYA, VALLABACHARYA, NIMBARKACHARYA, CHAITANYA MAHAPRABHU, KABIR, RAHIM, RASKAN, RAVI DAS, SENA NAYI, RAMA KRISHNA PARAMA HAMSA, VIVEKANANDA, MAHARISHI DAYANANDA.
NOBODY CRITICISED THE IDEOLOGY OF ANOTHER BY GIVING A DEROGATORY NAME TO THE OPPONENT IDEOLOGY LIKE WHAT ISCKON IS DOING NOW.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Vaishnavites were persecuted by Saivite Kings; the eradication of Jainism involved violence atleast at some point of time, this violence was indulged even by Vaishnavite Kings. Our own religious history is not so bloody as that of Islam or Chrisitianity, but it is not clean as you think it is too. We can't change History, not wish it away. Sorry, but true.
What I want to say is that we have more differences than what meets the eye.
Lets take Sri Vaishnavism for example. There is a bitter feud inside the tradition split into Then Kalai (the southern school) and the Vada kalai or Northern school, with no hopes of reconciliation. The theological differences are so so minor that an outsider won't belive it, but the two schools have DUG INTO their positions so entrenchedly that it has made the whole affair very pitiable.
Take Saiva Siddhanta of South India. Glorious History and an Ocean of Scriptures. Today, the mutts are fighting, sometimes with the participation of outsiders (aka politicians and even MUSLIMS) about the control of temples. The fight is over minute details of liturgy. I have cried many times witnessing these fights. I am sure the majority on this thread are somehow insulated from witnessing these ugly quarels. If somebody is interested, I can take you to certain shrines which have instituted a calendar system for two or more groups to take turns at Puja. Be sure to be moved beyond ordinary grief that many of you will stop thinking pakistan to be the greatest enemy.. or even Christian evangelists.
Many people might not like ISKCON or their world-view point or so on.
Many have tried their best to isolate ISKCON from the Hinduism group of religions.
This is self-defeating. If we have to accuse ISKCON of 'deviation', it would reveal the amount of ignorance we have about the differences of our own sub-religions.
We will discuss in detail, ISKCON as well as discuss why at this point of time, we need to close ranks. Today, as I see it, Christian evangelists are only biting at the periphery of our Hindu society. Only the marginalised convert. But the heart of Hinduism is at a greater trouble and danger. We just cannot afford to fight with the christians and ignore a greater and more urgent danger. Ditto with ISKCON. Taking against Iskcon is like quareling over the colour of the water can when the house is on fire.
Long ago, I was involved actively in debates and activism against christian preaching and poaching. today, i am least bothered about them. Today, I am more concerned about preserving and protecting more important stuff than the disillusioned marginal people who convert. Believe me, there is more at stake than just numbers converting to christianity.
I am only so sorry that I am pathetically short of time, that I can't even review what I have written here till now. I am not sure if my writing makes sense overall, but hope you can make it out.
By the way, yesterday, I was meeting RAJIV MALHOTRA of the RISA LILA fame. We had quite some discussions. I am looking forward to discuss them with Carl, K and HH.
Greetings everyone!
Jagan Mohan.