07-10-2006, 03:02 AM
(This post was last modified: 07-10-2006, 03:30 AM by Bharatvarsh.)
Good post mitradena.
Now coming to the question, as someone said before we have no way of deciding who realised God (for lack of a better English word) first because God is not the exclusive property of someone, there have been many saints who have realised God and there may be many people in the future who will attain the same state, something similar is said in the SGGS when it says:
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->âTruth before time began,
Truth when time began,
Is truth now, and,
Oh Nanak, will be the truth in the future.â
(âAdi Guru Durbarâ, Japji, Pa.1)
http://www.sarbloh.com/<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think the 10 Gurus also agreed that they were not the only ones who have realised God when the SGGS included compositions of some Hindu saints and Muslim sufis, although I think there were points where the Gurus disagreed with the bhakti saints. So there is no clear way of picking an individual name as the first person who realized God.
As for Sikhism being a reformist movement of Hinduism, well that is upto Sikhs to decide, as a Hindu I have no say in the matter but I do know that until the British took over the divisions between Hindus and Sikhs were not as clear as they are today, even until the late 80's Hindus (mainly Khatris) brought up their first son as a Sikh because they did not see becoming a Sikh as conversion to a different religion, in contrast no Hindu worth his salt would have ever agreed to bring up their eldest son as a Muslim or a Christian.
As for sikhnet, I am not surprised at their behaviour, I have seen them promoting beef eating with great enthusiasm in their efforts to prove that Sikhs are separate, Sikh separate identity is upto Sikhs but sikhnet goes to ridiculous lengths to promote their rubbish, even today 99% of the Sikhs in India won't eat beef, under Maharaja Ranjit Singh cow killing was punishable with death, later on under the British cow killing lead to riots between Namdhari Sikhs and Muslim butchers, and sikhnet cooks up ridiculous excuses to push aside all this history (for example, they claim that Maharaja Ranjit Singh often pursued policies purely for politics and that the ban on cow killing was one of them). Here is an example of the lies they spew around:
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->http://www.sikhnet.com/Sikhnet/discussion.nsf/78f5a2ff8906d1788725657c00732d6c/a884d87a8f60ca8487256fdc002bded0!OpenDocument<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
While Bhai Gurdas himself says the following about cow slaughter in his Vaar on the traits of slanderers and apostates:
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Vaar 17 Pauri 21 Counting the slanderers and apostates
Millions are slanderers, millions are apostates and millions of wicked persons are untrue to their salt.
Unfaithful, ungrateful, thieves, vagabonds and millions of other infamous persons are there.
Thousands are there who are slayers of Brahmin, cow, and their own family.
http://www.searchgurbani.com/main.php?book...aar=17&pauri=21<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And Guru Amardas says:
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->If a Brahmin kills a cow or a female infant, and accepts the offerings of an evil person, he is cursed with the leprosy of curses and criticism; he is forever and ever filled with egotistical pride.
http://www.searchgurbani.com/main.php?book...ypage&page=1413<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I guess now they will label Bhai Gurdas and Guru Amardas as RSS agents out to destroy Sikhi, that is their standard technique to silence anyone disagreeing with them. If beef eating was no problem then where was the need for Ahmad Shah Abdali to specifically slaughter cows in Har Mandir, couldn't he have slaughtered camels, horses or other animals?, and according to Khushwant Singh even today majority of the Sikhs don't eat beef.
According to K.Singh:
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->NO one can deny that killing cows to eat rouses very strong passions among Hindus and Sikhs.
http://www.tribuneindia.com/2003/2003030.../above.htm<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Hindus and Sikhs say donât eat beef; Jews and Muslims say donât eat pork; some even forbid eating crustaceans like oysters, prawns and lobsters.
http://www.tribuneindia.com/2003/2003030.../above.htm<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->In territories ruled over by Hindus and Sikh rulers, cow-slaughter was banned. In Maharaja Ranjit Singhâs Punjab, it was punishable with death as it was in Kashmir, which was under the Dogras. Even after the annexation of the Punjab, Hindus and Sikhs strongly resented slaughter of cows. The Namdhari movement got a fillip when some of its members murdered Muslim butchers and were blown up by canons. Their guru Ram Singh was exiled to Burma.
http://www.tribuneindia.com/2003/2003030.../above.htm<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
One of the first things Hari Singh Nalwa did upon taking charge of Kashmir was a strict cow slaughter ban, I suppose they will now label him as an RSS agent as well.
Now coming to the question, as someone said before we have no way of deciding who realised God (for lack of a better English word) first because God is not the exclusive property of someone, there have been many saints who have realised God and there may be many people in the future who will attain the same state, something similar is said in the SGGS when it says:
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->âTruth before time began,
Truth when time began,
Is truth now, and,
Oh Nanak, will be the truth in the future.â
(âAdi Guru Durbarâ, Japji, Pa.1)
http://www.sarbloh.com/<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think the 10 Gurus also agreed that they were not the only ones who have realised God when the SGGS included compositions of some Hindu saints and Muslim sufis, although I think there were points where the Gurus disagreed with the bhakti saints. So there is no clear way of picking an individual name as the first person who realized God.
As for Sikhism being a reformist movement of Hinduism, well that is upto Sikhs to decide, as a Hindu I have no say in the matter but I do know that until the British took over the divisions between Hindus and Sikhs were not as clear as they are today, even until the late 80's Hindus (mainly Khatris) brought up their first son as a Sikh because they did not see becoming a Sikh as conversion to a different religion, in contrast no Hindu worth his salt would have ever agreed to bring up their eldest son as a Muslim or a Christian.
As for sikhnet, I am not surprised at their behaviour, I have seen them promoting beef eating with great enthusiasm in their efforts to prove that Sikhs are separate, Sikh separate identity is upto Sikhs but sikhnet goes to ridiculous lengths to promote their rubbish, even today 99% of the Sikhs in India won't eat beef, under Maharaja Ranjit Singh cow killing was punishable with death, later on under the British cow killing lead to riots between Namdhari Sikhs and Muslim butchers, and sikhnet cooks up ridiculous excuses to push aside all this history (for example, they claim that Maharaja Ranjit Singh often pursued policies purely for politics and that the ban on cow killing was one of them). Here is an example of the lies they spew around:
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->http://www.sikhnet.com/Sikhnet/discussion.nsf/78f5a2ff8906d1788725657c00732d6c/a884d87a8f60ca8487256fdc002bded0!OpenDocument<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
While Bhai Gurdas himself says the following about cow slaughter in his Vaar on the traits of slanderers and apostates:
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Vaar 17 Pauri 21 Counting the slanderers and apostates
Millions are slanderers, millions are apostates and millions of wicked persons are untrue to their salt.
Unfaithful, ungrateful, thieves, vagabonds and millions of other infamous persons are there.
Thousands are there who are slayers of Brahmin, cow, and their own family.
http://www.searchgurbani.com/main.php?book...aar=17&pauri=21<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And Guru Amardas says:
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->If a Brahmin kills a cow or a female infant, and accepts the offerings of an evil person, he is cursed with the leprosy of curses and criticism; he is forever and ever filled with egotistical pride.
http://www.searchgurbani.com/main.php?book...ypage&page=1413<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I guess now they will label Bhai Gurdas and Guru Amardas as RSS agents out to destroy Sikhi, that is their standard technique to silence anyone disagreeing with them. If beef eating was no problem then where was the need for Ahmad Shah Abdali to specifically slaughter cows in Har Mandir, couldn't he have slaughtered camels, horses or other animals?, and according to Khushwant Singh even today majority of the Sikhs don't eat beef.
According to K.Singh:
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->NO one can deny that killing cows to eat rouses very strong passions among Hindus and Sikhs.
http://www.tribuneindia.com/2003/2003030.../above.htm<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Hindus and Sikhs say donât eat beef; Jews and Muslims say donât eat pork; some even forbid eating crustaceans like oysters, prawns and lobsters.
http://www.tribuneindia.com/2003/2003030.../above.htm<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->In territories ruled over by Hindus and Sikh rulers, cow-slaughter was banned. In Maharaja Ranjit Singhâs Punjab, it was punishable with death as it was in Kashmir, which was under the Dogras. Even after the annexation of the Punjab, Hindus and Sikhs strongly resented slaughter of cows. The Namdhari movement got a fillip when some of its members murdered Muslim butchers and were blown up by canons. Their guru Ram Singh was exiled to Burma.
http://www.tribuneindia.com/2003/2003030.../above.htm<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
One of the first things Hari Singh Nalwa did upon taking charge of Kashmir was a strict cow slaughter ban, I suppose they will now label him as an RSS agent as well.