08-17-2006, 05:14 PM
S. Valkan wrote:
Now, given the fact that Indian culture is a heterogeneous composite including elements from Islamic sources, where does that leave your contention that Indian civilisation has nothing to do with Islam ?
It has nothing to do with Islam. Your example falls down right here. The Muslims themselves and we too agree that we have nothing in common. If both sides agree that we do not have anything in common, how the hell can you try to insert sameness? If you had any knowledge of Muslims, anywhere in the world, you would know that they are members of the Ummah. NOT, and never will be, of India. The same applies for Australia, and for any other non Muslim country.
S. Valkan wrote:
In other words, it has no end.
That's what I was looking for.
It has a definite end, when all Hindus are consolidated. Doesn't mean it will happen or will happen soon, but an end yes to all things there is. Certainly it will end when Hinduism ceases to exist.
S. Valkan wrote:
Is that "consolidation" of civilisation, culture, or merely usurpation of territory ?
There can be no usurpation of territory since the foreign invaders of those lands had no right to them.
S. Valkan wrote:
Does PoK and Aksai Chin ring a bell?
S. Valkan wrote:
Do you seriously entertain the belief that they WILL be recovered, ever ?
Quote:
India had gains in Pakistan Administered Kashmir (Azad Kashmir, Pakistan Occupied Kashmir), having captured the Haji Pir Pass eight kilometers inside Pakistani territory.
Forget about ever. India took back lots of Kashmir in 1965, but chose to hand it back. So yes, given Pakistan's uncertain future as a state, India will get Pok sooner or later. Aksai Chin is ???. Undetermined at this current date. Pakistan's breakup is absolutely certain. If China breaks up, then yes.
Mirajuddin,
>>menon in what way is the option open?
As a Muslim, are you prevented from emigrating to an Islamic country of your choice by India?
>>does the indian government approve it even in a tacit way.... well if it does I am not aware of it
That is why I said "undeclared"
>>there may be more numbers in india but muslims are still a minority that too not more than 13% in most regions save kashmir
to the muslims in south india migration was not practical during partition so werent they leftout?
You are the one who said "security is in numbers". I pointed out that the numbers are in India's favour.
>>tough it may seem a bit harsh most muslims in india do not consider themselves part of indian civillisation they look up to islamic civilisation and take pride in achievements of mughal and deccan sultanates
Is there any research or link that can verify your assertion?
>>so if you ask me ..is the partition complete.the answer os no
How would it be complete?
mr admin,
u deleted my post entirely... which cotained bashing of mirajuddin (language edited again. Please restrain your language - JE Menon). and i see u are trying to reason him out.
hope you get something out, but to me there is no solution to the islam's fascist plague. not all muslims are like this, but this scumbag is definitely infected. the number thing he talks about is a proff enough of rising muslim population. hum 5 hamare 25 is not a fictionally coinded up term.
this edited expletivecant be loyal to the land where he was bought up. if we Indians are so bad to minorities, then they would have dissapeared as did in Islamic Fascit Plague hit TSP and now BD.
the fact that this scumbag is alive and he is allowed to talk here is proof enough of big heart of Indians.
and I include in indians all those who are patriots. Religion and other factors are not a criteria for me. but sadly its criteria for many to do misdeeds, which made me shout a lot on forums some time ago.
at peace with myself and not posting much, this edited expletive couldnt be ignored. this IFP(Islamic Fascist Plague) hit edited expletive has no place anywhere.
Tapasvi,
I deleted your initial post which contained language that could have resulted in a ban warning, if not a ban. I chose not to warn you because of the incendiary nature of mirajuddin's post and therefore some flaring of tempers is to be expected. Please consider your language before posting.
India is not so weak that if someone says partition is not complete, it will be undermined. The Pakis are saying it all the time. Obviously some Indian muslims think the same. The argument needs to be defeated comprehensively.
I see you've made a second post, and I have edited again. Please restrain yourself.
points to be noted mylord
-this mirajuddin dosent seem like IM to me. a hiding TSP troll probably
-even if he shows like IM, he isnt representing them here.
-we should start differentiating IMs in plague hit, plague prone and patriots. and start trying to save plague prone and eliminated the plague hit ones. i see little hope for these plague hit to become patriots. these people out of their ouwn mentality and attitue have made themsele Dhobi Ka Doggie types.... na India ka n bahar ka... useless nothing nowhere.
(will keep my language in check sire)
Thanks for your understanding Tapasvi.
If he is a Pak trying to play games, then he will be drawn out and dispatched efficiently. But since he has claimed to be an Indian Muslim, let us give him the benefit of the doubt for the time being.
And even if he is IM, as you said, he is only representing himself.
I am awaiting his answers.
menon
it is dificult for non muslims to understand the minds of muslims
IMs do not consider themselves part of indian civilisation the reasons for that hmm may be the education that one gets in mosques or from learned elders who always stress the purity of arab cultures and traditions
again i am taking the risk of inviting the wrath and some foul language from EDITED people but if you are a muslim would you llike to identify with muhammed oF ghouri or with prithviraaj chauhan? after all most muslims in india are converts ?
IMs have a different identity probably forced upon them initially and they have no or very little affinity towards cholas cheras or maghad empire .
now i am not saying that IMS are traitors and will suport pakistan in event of conflicts all i am trying to say is that IMs as you call us have more in common with arab culture than hindu culture
and believe me there are lot of people who would like to live in pakistan because they fear hindu domination or have been relegiously discriminated against
mirajuddin,
I used IM as short for Indian Muslim. No offence was meant.
Regarding whom you feel affinity for, i.e. the Arabic over the Indic civilisation, that is your right. However, who is forcing you to make that choice? Why not feel an affinity for both? Does feeling an affinity for Arabic culture make you feel opposed to the Indian one? Why? What has Indian civilisation done to harm the Arabic one?
You have not answered my question regarding partition, which you said is incomplete. How would it be complete?
>>believe me there are lot of people who would like to live in pakistan because they fear hindu domination or have been relegiously discriminated against
Maybe there are. But what do you mean by Hindu domination? That Hindus are a majority? Other than that? Constitutionally a Muslim has as much personal freedom as a Hindu does. Discrimination exists in all societies, including Muslim ones, including Pakistan (ask the mohajirs). What is an example of religious discrimination against Muslims in India?
quote
JE Menon wrote:
What is an example of religious discrimination against Muslims in India?
1.That their expenses for the HAJ trip are beared by whole of India,why not the same done for Hindus who go for Kailash Mansarovar Yatra?
2.There is reservation for IM's in govt posts in Andhra Pradesh.
3.Whenever there have been riots in the past it's always been projected as Anti-Muslim,Anti-Sikh or Anti-NotHIndu.
4.There is no Uniform Civil code ,see the socio economic rules which a Hindu ought to abide by and a IM needent just because Quran says so. Evil or Very Mad
menon
Quote:
Why not feel an affinity for both?
Because both are antagonistic and nullify each other
Quote:
You have not answered my question regarding partition, which you said is incomplete. How would it be complete?
i meant partition was incomplete in demographic terms for most in the south there was no choice but to stay back given the distance and animosity between the two communities during that time.as a result manywho wanted but couldnt migrate stayed back nursing a dream of migrating one day .they thus dissosiated themselves from india and turned to relegion ,feeling more strongly about islamic issues than national issues
Quote:
What is an example of religious discrimination against Muslims in India?
answer me honestly menon dont you think in private sector muslims are discriminated against ?
mirajuddin wrote:
but if you are a muslim would you llike to identify with muhammed oF ghouri or with prithviraaj chauhan?
If you think as an individual or should i say if you THINK there would not be any confusion. The problem arises only when you bring the shadow of islam onto other identities and give artificial primacy to that.
BTW, whom do you identify with? Ghouri or Chauhan?
mirajuddin wrote:
IMs have a different identity probably forced upon them initially and they have no or very little affinity towards cholas cheras or maghad empire .
Who is forcing such a thing on you NOW? Why should muslims resort to herd mentality on everything and seek compliance with 7th century desert manual of copy-paste work.
Quote:
Why not feel an affinity for both?
Because both are antagonistic and nullify each other
Quote:
You have not answered my question regarding partition, which you said is incomplete. How would it be complete?
i meant partition was incomplete in demographic terms for most in the south there was no choice but to stay back given the distance and animosity between the two communities during that time.as a result manywho wanted but couldnt migrate stayed back nursing a dream of migrating one day .they thus dissosiated themselves from india and turned to relegion ,feeling more strongly about islamic issues than national issues
Quote:
What is an example of religious discrimination against Muslims in India?
answer me honestly menon dont you think in private sector muslims are discriminated against ?
answer me honestly menon dont you think in private sector muslims are discriminated against ?
If companies like Wipro,Cipla,wokhardt are indeed indulging in any form of discrimination , then i think that they must have some valid reasons for doing so.
Do you really think that muslims are flourishing in india inspite of the discrimination?
honestly mr maan
no offence meant read india today latest issue you will get al the info
mirajuddin wrote:
honestly mr maan
no offence meant read india today latest issue you will get al the info
Why to bother about india today's views? we are interested in your THOUGHTS.
Now, given the fact that Indian culture is a heterogeneous composite including elements from Islamic sources, where does that leave your contention that Indian civilisation has nothing to do with Islam ?
It has nothing to do with Islam. Your example falls down right here. The Muslims themselves and we too agree that we have nothing in common. If both sides agree that we do not have anything in common, how the hell can you try to insert sameness? If you had any knowledge of Muslims, anywhere in the world, you would know that they are members of the Ummah. NOT, and never will be, of India. The same applies for Australia, and for any other non Muslim country.
S. Valkan wrote:
In other words, it has no end.
That's what I was looking for.
It has a definite end, when all Hindus are consolidated. Doesn't mean it will happen or will happen soon, but an end yes to all things there is. Certainly it will end when Hinduism ceases to exist.
S. Valkan wrote:
Is that "consolidation" of civilisation, culture, or merely usurpation of territory ?
There can be no usurpation of territory since the foreign invaders of those lands had no right to them.
S. Valkan wrote:
Does PoK and Aksai Chin ring a bell?
S. Valkan wrote:
Do you seriously entertain the belief that they WILL be recovered, ever ?
Quote:
India had gains in Pakistan Administered Kashmir (Azad Kashmir, Pakistan Occupied Kashmir), having captured the Haji Pir Pass eight kilometers inside Pakistani territory.
Forget about ever. India took back lots of Kashmir in 1965, but chose to hand it back. So yes, given Pakistan's uncertain future as a state, India will get Pok sooner or later. Aksai Chin is ???. Undetermined at this current date. Pakistan's breakup is absolutely certain. If China breaks up, then yes.
Mirajuddin,
>>menon in what way is the option open?
As a Muslim, are you prevented from emigrating to an Islamic country of your choice by India?
>>does the indian government approve it even in a tacit way.... well if it does I am not aware of it
That is why I said "undeclared"
>>there may be more numbers in india but muslims are still a minority that too not more than 13% in most regions save kashmir
to the muslims in south india migration was not practical during partition so werent they leftout?
You are the one who said "security is in numbers". I pointed out that the numbers are in India's favour.
>>tough it may seem a bit harsh most muslims in india do not consider themselves part of indian civillisation they look up to islamic civilisation and take pride in achievements of mughal and deccan sultanates
Is there any research or link that can verify your assertion?
>>so if you ask me ..is the partition complete.the answer os no
How would it be complete?
mr admin,
u deleted my post entirely... which cotained bashing of mirajuddin (language edited again. Please restrain your language - JE Menon). and i see u are trying to reason him out.
hope you get something out, but to me there is no solution to the islam's fascist plague. not all muslims are like this, but this scumbag is definitely infected. the number thing he talks about is a proff enough of rising muslim population. hum 5 hamare 25 is not a fictionally coinded up term.
this edited expletivecant be loyal to the land where he was bought up. if we Indians are so bad to minorities, then they would have dissapeared as did in Islamic Fascit Plague hit TSP and now BD.
the fact that this scumbag is alive and he is allowed to talk here is proof enough of big heart of Indians.
and I include in indians all those who are patriots. Religion and other factors are not a criteria for me. but sadly its criteria for many to do misdeeds, which made me shout a lot on forums some time ago.
at peace with myself and not posting much, this edited expletive couldnt be ignored. this IFP(Islamic Fascist Plague) hit edited expletive has no place anywhere.
Tapasvi,
I deleted your initial post which contained language that could have resulted in a ban warning, if not a ban. I chose not to warn you because of the incendiary nature of mirajuddin's post and therefore some flaring of tempers is to be expected. Please consider your language before posting.
India is not so weak that if someone says partition is not complete, it will be undermined. The Pakis are saying it all the time. Obviously some Indian muslims think the same. The argument needs to be defeated comprehensively.
I see you've made a second post, and I have edited again. Please restrain yourself.
points to be noted mylord
-this mirajuddin dosent seem like IM to me. a hiding TSP troll probably
-even if he shows like IM, he isnt representing them here.
-we should start differentiating IMs in plague hit, plague prone and patriots. and start trying to save plague prone and eliminated the plague hit ones. i see little hope for these plague hit to become patriots. these people out of their ouwn mentality and attitue have made themsele Dhobi Ka Doggie types.... na India ka n bahar ka... useless nothing nowhere.
(will keep my language in check sire)
Thanks for your understanding Tapasvi.
If he is a Pak trying to play games, then he will be drawn out and dispatched efficiently. But since he has claimed to be an Indian Muslim, let us give him the benefit of the doubt for the time being.
And even if he is IM, as you said, he is only representing himself.
I am awaiting his answers.
menon
it is dificult for non muslims to understand the minds of muslims
IMs do not consider themselves part of indian civilisation the reasons for that hmm may be the education that one gets in mosques or from learned elders who always stress the purity of arab cultures and traditions
again i am taking the risk of inviting the wrath and some foul language from EDITED people but if you are a muslim would you llike to identify with muhammed oF ghouri or with prithviraaj chauhan? after all most muslims in india are converts ?
IMs have a different identity probably forced upon them initially and they have no or very little affinity towards cholas cheras or maghad empire .
now i am not saying that IMS are traitors and will suport pakistan in event of conflicts all i am trying to say is that IMs as you call us have more in common with arab culture than hindu culture
and believe me there are lot of people who would like to live in pakistan because they fear hindu domination or have been relegiously discriminated against
mirajuddin,
I used IM as short for Indian Muslim. No offence was meant.
Regarding whom you feel affinity for, i.e. the Arabic over the Indic civilisation, that is your right. However, who is forcing you to make that choice? Why not feel an affinity for both? Does feeling an affinity for Arabic culture make you feel opposed to the Indian one? Why? What has Indian civilisation done to harm the Arabic one?
You have not answered my question regarding partition, which you said is incomplete. How would it be complete?
>>believe me there are lot of people who would like to live in pakistan because they fear hindu domination or have been relegiously discriminated against
Maybe there are. But what do you mean by Hindu domination? That Hindus are a majority? Other than that? Constitutionally a Muslim has as much personal freedom as a Hindu does. Discrimination exists in all societies, including Muslim ones, including Pakistan (ask the mohajirs). What is an example of religious discrimination against Muslims in India?
quote
JE Menon wrote:
What is an example of religious discrimination against Muslims in India?
1.That their expenses for the HAJ trip are beared by whole of India,why not the same done for Hindus who go for Kailash Mansarovar Yatra?
2.There is reservation for IM's in govt posts in Andhra Pradesh.
3.Whenever there have been riots in the past it's always been projected as Anti-Muslim,Anti-Sikh or Anti-NotHIndu.
4.There is no Uniform Civil code ,see the socio economic rules which a Hindu ought to abide by and a IM needent just because Quran says so. Evil or Very Mad
menon
Quote:
Why not feel an affinity for both?
Because both are antagonistic and nullify each other
Quote:
You have not answered my question regarding partition, which you said is incomplete. How would it be complete?
i meant partition was incomplete in demographic terms for most in the south there was no choice but to stay back given the distance and animosity between the two communities during that time.as a result manywho wanted but couldnt migrate stayed back nursing a dream of migrating one day .they thus dissosiated themselves from india and turned to relegion ,feeling more strongly about islamic issues than national issues
Quote:
What is an example of religious discrimination against Muslims in India?
answer me honestly menon dont you think in private sector muslims are discriminated against ?
mirajuddin wrote:
but if you are a muslim would you llike to identify with muhammed oF ghouri or with prithviraaj chauhan?
If you think as an individual or should i say if you THINK there would not be any confusion. The problem arises only when you bring the shadow of islam onto other identities and give artificial primacy to that.
BTW, whom do you identify with? Ghouri or Chauhan?
mirajuddin wrote:
IMs have a different identity probably forced upon them initially and they have no or very little affinity towards cholas cheras or maghad empire .
Who is forcing such a thing on you NOW? Why should muslims resort to herd mentality on everything and seek compliance with 7th century desert manual of copy-paste work.
Quote:
Why not feel an affinity for both?
Because both are antagonistic and nullify each other
Quote:
You have not answered my question regarding partition, which you said is incomplete. How would it be complete?
i meant partition was incomplete in demographic terms for most in the south there was no choice but to stay back given the distance and animosity between the two communities during that time.as a result manywho wanted but couldnt migrate stayed back nursing a dream of migrating one day .they thus dissosiated themselves from india and turned to relegion ,feeling more strongly about islamic issues than national issues
Quote:
What is an example of religious discrimination against Muslims in India?
answer me honestly menon dont you think in private sector muslims are discriminated against ?
answer me honestly menon dont you think in private sector muslims are discriminated against ?
If companies like Wipro,Cipla,wokhardt are indeed indulging in any form of discrimination , then i think that they must have some valid reasons for doing so.
Do you really think that muslims are flourishing in india inspite of the discrimination?
honestly mr maan
no offence meant read india today latest issue you will get al the info
mirajuddin wrote:
honestly mr maan
no offence meant read india today latest issue you will get al the info
Why to bother about india today's views? we are interested in your THOUGHTS.