08-30-2006, 02:24 AM
<!--QuoteBegin-Ravi Chaudhary+Aug 25 2006, 12:06 AM-->QUOTE(Ravi Chaudhary @ Aug 25 2006, 12:06 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->Poster Digvijay has referred to Rana sanga and the " memoirs of Babur" the baburnama
Fortunately for students of History, a number of these translations are now online.
Though they present a one sided view, they are still useful as raw material, for they can be compared and corraborated with other accounts.
Indian History text books have relied too much , exclsuvely on these accounts..
From a raw material point of view, I have taken certain extracts from the memoirs of Babur:
For students of history , a number of the translations of the Persian manuscripts are now online at the Packhum site.
MEMOIRS OF
ZEHĪR-ED-DĪN MUHAMMED BÄBUR
EMPEROR OF HINDUSTAN
WRITTEN BY HIMSELF, IN THE CHAGHATÄI TŪRKI
AND TRANSLATED BY
JOHN LEYDEN, ESQ., M.D.
AND
WILLIAM ERSKINE, ESQ. ( circa 1813)
THE MEMOIRS OF BÄBUR
http://persian.packhum.org/persian/pf?fi...01052&ct=0
The other translation is by A S Beveridge     , done in 1921.
The accounts are not significantly different.
Some extracts:
THE MEMOIRS OF BÄBUR
http://persian.packhum.org/persian/pf?fi...01052&ct=0
EVENTS OF THE YEAR 933
http://persian.packhum.org/persian/pf?fi...1052&ct=56
1. :Although RÄna Sanka,* the Pagan, when I was in KÄbul, had sent me an ambassador with professions of attachment, and had arranged with me, that, if I would march from that quarter into the vicinity of Delhi, he would march from the other side upon Agra; yet, when I defeated IbrahÄ«m, and took Delhi and Agra, the Pagan, during all my operations, did not make a single movement. After some time, he advanced and laid siege to KandÄrâ
http://persian.packhum.org/persian/pf?fi...1052&ct=54
2. âHaving appointed these armies to proceed in execution of their various objects, I sent for the TÅ«rki nobles and those of Hind, and held a consultation. I stated to them that the rebellious lords in the east, NÄsir Khan LohÄni, MaarÅ«f FermÅ«li, and their adherents, had passed the Ganges, to the number of forty or fifty thousand men, had occupied Kanauj, and advanced and encamped two or three marches on this side of it; that the Pagan RÄna Sanka had taken KandÄr, and was in a state of open disobedience and revolt; that the rainy season was now nearly over; that it seemed expedient and necessary to march against either the rebels or the pagans; that it would be an easy matter to reduce the neighbouring forts after getting rid of these formidable enemies; that then they would cost no trouble; that RÄna Sanka was not, upon the whole, a very formidable enemy. Resolution
to march
against the
Afghans in
the east.
The com-
mand given
to HumÄiÅ«n, All unanimously answered, that RÄna Sanka was not only far off , but that it was not even plain that it was in his power to come near us;â
http://persian.packhum.org/persian/pf?fi...1052&ct=54
3 . â Hassan Khan, He is joined
by Hassan
Khan of
Alwar. had ostentatiously maintained a correspondence, and constantly asked back his son. Many imagined, that if I gratified Hassan Khan by sending his son to him, he would be extremely sensible of the obligation, and exert himself actively in my service.* I therefore invested his son, NÄhir Khan, with a dress of honour, and on his entering into an engagement,* sent him back to his father*; but that wretch, as soon as he had ascertained that his son was released, and before the young man had reached him, totally forgetful of the obligation conferred on him,* marched out of Alwar,* and went to join RÄna Sanka.â
At this station we received information that RÄna Sanka had pushed on with all his army nearly as far as BiÄna. The party that had been sent out in advance were not able to reach the fort, nor even to communicate with it. The garrison of BiÄna had advanced too far from the fort, and with too little caution, and the enemy having unexpectedly fallen upon them in great force, completely routed them. Sanger Khan JanjÅ«heh fell on this occasion. When the affair began, Kitteh Beg came galloping up without his armour, and joined in the action. He had dismounted a pagan, and was in the act of laying hold of him, when the Hindu, snatching a sword from a servant of Kitteh Beg, struck the Beg on the shoulder, and wounded him so severely that he was not able to come into the field during the rest of the war against RÄna Sanka
http://persian.packhum.org/persian/pf?fi...1052&ct=58
4. On Monday, the 9th of the first JumÄda, I began my march to the holy war against the heathen. Having passed the suburbs, I encamped on the plain, where I halted three or four days, to collect the army and communicate the necessary instructions. As I did not place great reliance on the men of HindustÄn, I employed their AmÄ«rs in making desultory excursions in different directions. Älim Khan was directed to proceed with a light force to GwÄliÄr, to carry assistance to RahÄ«mdÄd, while I appointed Makan, KÄsim Sambali, HamÄ«d with his brothers, and Muhammed ZeitÅ«n, to proceed with a light-armed party towards Sambal.
Defeat of
the detach-
ment.
At this station we received information that RÄna Sanka had pushed on with all his army nearly as far as BiÄna. The party that had been sent out in advance were not able to reach the fort, nor even to communicate with it. The garrison of BiÄna had advanced too far from the fort, and with too little caution, and the enemy having unexpectedly fallen upon them in great force, completely routed them.
http://persian.packhum.org/persian/pf?fi...1052&ct=58
5. Size of Rana Sangaâs army. Note the muslims as part of his army
s, for instance, SilÄhed-dÄ«n* possessed* thirty thousand horse; RÄwal Ūdai Sing NÄgari,* ten* thousand horse; Medini Rai, ten* thousand; Hassan Khan MewÄti, twelve thousand horse; BÄrmal Īdari, four thousand horse; Narpat HÄda,* seven thousand; Sattervi Kachi, six thousand; Dharm Deo, four thousand; Narsing Deo,* four thousand horse; MahmÅ«d Khan, the son of Sultan Sikander, though he possessed no country nor perganna, yet had gathered about him ten thousand horse, who adhered to him in the hopes that he might succeed in establishing his pretensions; insomuch, that the total number of all these wretches, who were separated from the fields of salvation and bliss, if an estimate be formed from the capacity of their dominions and pergannas, was two hundred and one thousand.
http://persian.packhum.org/persian/pf?fi...1052&ct=62
5. Accounts with names of leaders who died- Hassan Khan, Udai sing Rawal of Udaipur, Chanderbhan Chuhan,
â Many were slain, and fell in the battle, and some giving up their lives for lost, turned to the desert of ruin, and became the food of crows and kites; and hillocks were formed of the slain, and towers raised of their heads. Hassan Khan MewÄti was enrolled in the band of the dead by a matchlock shot, and in like manner many of these bewildered and misled rebels, the leaders of that army, were struck by arrows or musket-shot, and closed their lives; of the number, RÄwal Udai Sing, before named,* who was Prince (Wali) of the country of UdaipÅ«r, and had twelve thousand horse; and Rai ChanderbhÄn ChuhÄn, who had four thousand horse,* and MÄnikchand ChuhÄn, and Dilpat Rai, who were masters of four thousand horse, and GangÅ«, and Karm Sing, and Rao Bikersi,* who had three thousand horse, and a number of others, who each were leaders of great clans, men of high rank and pride, measured the road to Hell, and, from this house of clay, were transferred to the Pit of Perdition. The road from the field of battle was filled like hell, with the wounded who died by the way; and the lowest hell was rendered populous, in consequence of the numbers of infidels who had delivered up their lives to the angels* of hell. On whatever side of the armies of IslÄm a person went, on every hand he found men of distinction lying slain; and the illustrious camp, wherever it has moved after the fugitives, could nowhere find a spot in which to plant a foot, in consequence of the number of distinguished men lying mangled.*â
All the Hindus were scattered and confounded,*
With stones,* like the warriors of the elephant.
Many hills of their bodies were seen,
And from each hill flowed a rivulet of running blood.
From the dread of the arrows of the ranks full of grandeur,
They were flying and running*
to every field and hill.
Arabic.âThey go backwards in flight. And the event happened as it had been ordained of Fate. And now the praise be to God, who is All-hearing and All-wise; and except from whom there is no help, for he is great and March
1527. powerful.* * Written in the month of the latter JumÄda, in the year 933.*
http://persian.packhum.org/persian/pf?fi...1052&ct=64
I have checked this against Beveridge's translation, and the accounts are practically the same, word for word.
A couple of items stand out
1) The agreement between Rana Sanga and Babur, on which Sanga is said to have gone back on. This agreement is also referred to by other Historians.
2) This is not a Hindu army fighting an Islamic one. Sanga has plenty of Muslims in his forces.
3) Perhaps I have missed it but nowhere can I see is the term 'rajput' used to describe him! He is descibed as Pagan.
Ravi Chaudhary
[right][snapback]56166[/snapback][/right]
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
To to the issue of where poster Digvijay got his incorrect information, see below:
It is pretty much as we suspected.
The question was only: did the original Baburnama contain the term rajput to describe Rana Sanga or not?
The evidence was that the original translations by Beveridge and Leyden did not contain the term ârajputâ describe Rana Sanga.
We had suspected that this poster Digvijay was using an edited, abridged, ( shortened) version of the original translation of Beveridge( 1921)
.
Digvijay writes in the allempires forum
http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_topics.asp?FID=35
http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_post...?TID=13788&PN=7
{Topic: The Royal Gurjars, page 7
Posted: Today at 11:38am
Here are the book details:
BaburNama
Penguin Publishers (2006 edition)
ISBN-13: 978 - 0 - 14400 - 149 - 1
Printed at Saurabh Printers Pvt Limited Noida
Once again for the record here are the quotes I made:
Page 289:
My March Against Rana Sangha
"(11 February/9 Jumada Awal ) We left Agra and dismounted in the countryside where we remained for a few days to assemble our army. News reached us that due to Rajput Rana Sangha's speedy advance with all his troops our scouts were unable ..........."}
â
Since the two ISBN numbers , the one provided by Digijay and the one appearing in the Amazon catalogue agree, we can assume with some safety that we are all talking about the same edition of Penguin/Hiro.
The Penguin edition was published earlier this year in 2006.
Hiroâs shortened and edited version contains 424 pages, the original 1921 translation contains over 700 pages
The editor is Dilip Hiro , a journalist, who edited , shortened, revised the original version.
Dilip Hiroâs version based on Beveridge(1921) includes the term ârajputâ to describe Sanga, but Beveridgeâs original translation which he uses as his source does not,
To complete the information available the earlier translation by Leyden in 1813 also does not use the term rajput to describe Sanga.
Dilip Hiro would have done well not to distort the original text and to follow the comment in the review. 'the truth should be reached in every matter'.
We all should try and be technically accurate- debate and discussion is another matter
Ravi Chaudhary
**********
For the publisherâs review see below:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Journal-Emperor-Ba...=UTF8&s=gateway
Journal of Emperor Babur by Zahir al-Din Babur and Dilip Hiro (Paperback - 25 Jan 2007)
Product details
· Paperback: 424 pages
· Publisher: Penguin Books,India (25 Jan 2007)
· Language English
· ISBN: 0144001497
Reviews
Synopsis
'The facts are as stated here...I have set down of good and bad whatever is known.' "The Babur Nama", a journal kept by Zahir Uddin Muhammad Babur (1483-1530), the founder of the Mughal Empire, is the earliest example of autobiographical writing in world literature, and one of the finest. Against the turbulent backdrop of medieval history, it paints a precise and vivid picture of life in Central Asia and Afghanistan - where Babur ruled in Samarkand and Kabul - and in the Indian subcontinent, where his dazzling military career culminated in the founding of a dynasty that lasted three centuries. Babur was far more than a skilled, often ruthless, warrior and master strategist. In this abridged and edited version of a 1921 English translation of his memoirs, he also emerges as a sensitive aesthete, naturalist, poet and lover. Writer, journalist and internationally acclaimed Middle Eastern and Central Asian expert, Dilip Hiro breathes new life into a unique historical document that is at once objective and intensely personal - for, in Babur's words, 'the truth should be reached in every matter'.
Fortunately for students of History, a number of these translations are now online.
Though they present a one sided view, they are still useful as raw material, for they can be compared and corraborated with other accounts.
Indian History text books have relied too much , exclsuvely on these accounts..
From a raw material point of view, I have taken certain extracts from the memoirs of Babur:
For students of history , a number of the translations of the Persian manuscripts are now online at the Packhum site.
MEMOIRS OF
ZEHĪR-ED-DĪN MUHAMMED BÄBUR
EMPEROR OF HINDUSTAN
WRITTEN BY HIMSELF, IN THE CHAGHATÄI TŪRKI
AND TRANSLATED BY
JOHN LEYDEN, ESQ., M.D.
AND
WILLIAM ERSKINE, ESQ. ( circa 1813)
THE MEMOIRS OF BÄBUR
http://persian.packhum.org/persian/pf?fi...01052&ct=0
The other translation is by A S Beveridge     , done in 1921.
The accounts are not significantly different.
Some extracts:
THE MEMOIRS OF BÄBUR
http://persian.packhum.org/persian/pf?fi...01052&ct=0
EVENTS OF THE YEAR 933
http://persian.packhum.org/persian/pf?fi...1052&ct=56
1. :Although RÄna Sanka,* the Pagan, when I was in KÄbul, had sent me an ambassador with professions of attachment, and had arranged with me, that, if I would march from that quarter into the vicinity of Delhi, he would march from the other side upon Agra; yet, when I defeated IbrahÄ«m, and took Delhi and Agra, the Pagan, during all my operations, did not make a single movement. After some time, he advanced and laid siege to KandÄrâ
http://persian.packhum.org/persian/pf?fi...1052&ct=54
2. âHaving appointed these armies to proceed in execution of their various objects, I sent for the TÅ«rki nobles and those of Hind, and held a consultation. I stated to them that the rebellious lords in the east, NÄsir Khan LohÄni, MaarÅ«f FermÅ«li, and their adherents, had passed the Ganges, to the number of forty or fifty thousand men, had occupied Kanauj, and advanced and encamped two or three marches on this side of it; that the Pagan RÄna Sanka had taken KandÄr, and was in a state of open disobedience and revolt; that the rainy season was now nearly over; that it seemed expedient and necessary to march against either the rebels or the pagans; that it would be an easy matter to reduce the neighbouring forts after getting rid of these formidable enemies; that then they would cost no trouble; that RÄna Sanka was not, upon the whole, a very formidable enemy. Resolution
to march
against the
Afghans in
the east.
The com-
mand given
to HumÄiÅ«n, All unanimously answered, that RÄna Sanka was not only far off , but that it was not even plain that it was in his power to come near us;â
http://persian.packhum.org/persian/pf?fi...1052&ct=54
3 . â Hassan Khan, He is joined
by Hassan
Khan of
Alwar. had ostentatiously maintained a correspondence, and constantly asked back his son. Many imagined, that if I gratified Hassan Khan by sending his son to him, he would be extremely sensible of the obligation, and exert himself actively in my service.* I therefore invested his son, NÄhir Khan, with a dress of honour, and on his entering into an engagement,* sent him back to his father*; but that wretch, as soon as he had ascertained that his son was released, and before the young man had reached him, totally forgetful of the obligation conferred on him,* marched out of Alwar,* and went to join RÄna Sanka.â
At this station we received information that RÄna Sanka had pushed on with all his army nearly as far as BiÄna. The party that had been sent out in advance were not able to reach the fort, nor even to communicate with it. The garrison of BiÄna had advanced too far from the fort, and with too little caution, and the enemy having unexpectedly fallen upon them in great force, completely routed them. Sanger Khan JanjÅ«heh fell on this occasion. When the affair began, Kitteh Beg came galloping up without his armour, and joined in the action. He had dismounted a pagan, and was in the act of laying hold of him, when the Hindu, snatching a sword from a servant of Kitteh Beg, struck the Beg on the shoulder, and wounded him so severely that he was not able to come into the field during the rest of the war against RÄna Sanka
http://persian.packhum.org/persian/pf?fi...1052&ct=58
4. On Monday, the 9th of the first JumÄda, I began my march to the holy war against the heathen. Having passed the suburbs, I encamped on the plain, where I halted three or four days, to collect the army and communicate the necessary instructions. As I did not place great reliance on the men of HindustÄn, I employed their AmÄ«rs in making desultory excursions in different directions. Älim Khan was directed to proceed with a light force to GwÄliÄr, to carry assistance to RahÄ«mdÄd, while I appointed Makan, KÄsim Sambali, HamÄ«d with his brothers, and Muhammed ZeitÅ«n, to proceed with a light-armed party towards Sambal.
Defeat of
the detach-
ment.
At this station we received information that RÄna Sanka had pushed on with all his army nearly as far as BiÄna. The party that had been sent out in advance were not able to reach the fort, nor even to communicate with it. The garrison of BiÄna had advanced too far from the fort, and with too little caution, and the enemy having unexpectedly fallen upon them in great force, completely routed them.
http://persian.packhum.org/persian/pf?fi...1052&ct=58
5. Size of Rana Sangaâs army. Note the muslims as part of his army
s, for instance, SilÄhed-dÄ«n* possessed* thirty thousand horse; RÄwal Ūdai Sing NÄgari,* ten* thousand horse; Medini Rai, ten* thousand; Hassan Khan MewÄti, twelve thousand horse; BÄrmal Īdari, four thousand horse; Narpat HÄda,* seven thousand; Sattervi Kachi, six thousand; Dharm Deo, four thousand; Narsing Deo,* four thousand horse; MahmÅ«d Khan, the son of Sultan Sikander, though he possessed no country nor perganna, yet had gathered about him ten thousand horse, who adhered to him in the hopes that he might succeed in establishing his pretensions; insomuch, that the total number of all these wretches, who were separated from the fields of salvation and bliss, if an estimate be formed from the capacity of their dominions and pergannas, was two hundred and one thousand.
http://persian.packhum.org/persian/pf?fi...1052&ct=62
5. Accounts with names of leaders who died- Hassan Khan, Udai sing Rawal of Udaipur, Chanderbhan Chuhan,
â Many were slain, and fell in the battle, and some giving up their lives for lost, turned to the desert of ruin, and became the food of crows and kites; and hillocks were formed of the slain, and towers raised of their heads. Hassan Khan MewÄti was enrolled in the band of the dead by a matchlock shot, and in like manner many of these bewildered and misled rebels, the leaders of that army, were struck by arrows or musket-shot, and closed their lives; of the number, RÄwal Udai Sing, before named,* who was Prince (Wali) of the country of UdaipÅ«r, and had twelve thousand horse; and Rai ChanderbhÄn ChuhÄn, who had four thousand horse,* and MÄnikchand ChuhÄn, and Dilpat Rai, who were masters of four thousand horse, and GangÅ«, and Karm Sing, and Rao Bikersi,* who had three thousand horse, and a number of others, who each were leaders of great clans, men of high rank and pride, measured the road to Hell, and, from this house of clay, were transferred to the Pit of Perdition. The road from the field of battle was filled like hell, with the wounded who died by the way; and the lowest hell was rendered populous, in consequence of the numbers of infidels who had delivered up their lives to the angels* of hell. On whatever side of the armies of IslÄm a person went, on every hand he found men of distinction lying slain; and the illustrious camp, wherever it has moved after the fugitives, could nowhere find a spot in which to plant a foot, in consequence of the number of distinguished men lying mangled.*â
All the Hindus were scattered and confounded,*
With stones,* like the warriors of the elephant.
Many hills of their bodies were seen,
And from each hill flowed a rivulet of running blood.
From the dread of the arrows of the ranks full of grandeur,
They were flying and running*
to every field and hill.
Arabic.âThey go backwards in flight. And the event happened as it had been ordained of Fate. And now the praise be to God, who is All-hearing and All-wise; and except from whom there is no help, for he is great and March
1527. powerful.* * Written in the month of the latter JumÄda, in the year 933.*
http://persian.packhum.org/persian/pf?fi...1052&ct=64
I have checked this against Beveridge's translation, and the accounts are practically the same, word for word.
A couple of items stand out
1) The agreement between Rana Sanga and Babur, on which Sanga is said to have gone back on. This agreement is also referred to by other Historians.
2) This is not a Hindu army fighting an Islamic one. Sanga has plenty of Muslims in his forces.
3) Perhaps I have missed it but nowhere can I see is the term 'rajput' used to describe him! He is descibed as Pagan.
Ravi Chaudhary
[right][snapback]56166[/snapback][/right]
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
To to the issue of where poster Digvijay got his incorrect information, see below:
It is pretty much as we suspected.
The question was only: did the original Baburnama contain the term rajput to describe Rana Sanga or not?
The evidence was that the original translations by Beveridge and Leyden did not contain the term ârajputâ describe Rana Sanga.
We had suspected that this poster Digvijay was using an edited, abridged, ( shortened) version of the original translation of Beveridge( 1921)
.
Digvijay writes in the allempires forum
http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_topics.asp?FID=35
http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_post...?TID=13788&PN=7
{Topic: The Royal Gurjars, page 7
Posted: Today at 11:38am
Here are the book details:
BaburNama
Penguin Publishers (2006 edition)
ISBN-13: 978 - 0 - 14400 - 149 - 1
Printed at Saurabh Printers Pvt Limited Noida
Once again for the record here are the quotes I made:
Page 289:
My March Against Rana Sangha
"(11 February/9 Jumada Awal ) We left Agra and dismounted in the countryside where we remained for a few days to assemble our army. News reached us that due to Rajput Rana Sangha's speedy advance with all his troops our scouts were unable ..........."}
â
Since the two ISBN numbers , the one provided by Digijay and the one appearing in the Amazon catalogue agree, we can assume with some safety that we are all talking about the same edition of Penguin/Hiro.
The Penguin edition was published earlier this year in 2006.
Hiroâs shortened and edited version contains 424 pages, the original 1921 translation contains over 700 pages
The editor is Dilip Hiro , a journalist, who edited , shortened, revised the original version.
Dilip Hiroâs version based on Beveridge(1921) includes the term ârajputâ to describe Sanga, but Beveridgeâs original translation which he uses as his source does not,
To complete the information available the earlier translation by Leyden in 1813 also does not use the term rajput to describe Sanga.
Dilip Hiro would have done well not to distort the original text and to follow the comment in the review. 'the truth should be reached in every matter'.
We all should try and be technically accurate- debate and discussion is another matter
Ravi Chaudhary
**********
For the publisherâs review see below:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Journal-Emperor-Ba...=UTF8&s=gateway
Journal of Emperor Babur by Zahir al-Din Babur and Dilip Hiro (Paperback - 25 Jan 2007)
Product details
· Paperback: 424 pages
· Publisher: Penguin Books,India (25 Jan 2007)
· Language English
· ISBN: 0144001497
Reviews
Synopsis
'The facts are as stated here...I have set down of good and bad whatever is known.' "The Babur Nama", a journal kept by Zahir Uddin Muhammad Babur (1483-1530), the founder of the Mughal Empire, is the earliest example of autobiographical writing in world literature, and one of the finest. Against the turbulent backdrop of medieval history, it paints a precise and vivid picture of life in Central Asia and Afghanistan - where Babur ruled in Samarkand and Kabul - and in the Indian subcontinent, where his dazzling military career culminated in the founding of a dynasty that lasted three centuries. Babur was far more than a skilled, often ruthless, warrior and master strategist. In this abridged and edited version of a 1921 English translation of his memoirs, he also emerges as a sensitive aesthete, naturalist, poet and lover. Writer, journalist and internationally acclaimed Middle Eastern and Central Asian expert, Dilip Hiro breathes new life into a unique historical document that is at once objective and intensely personal - for, in Babur's words, 'the truth should be reached in every matter'.