09-30-2006, 07:38 AM
Cag
A counterquestion:
What is Hindutva wrt running the state?
I will rely on the Indian supreme court judgements on the this question. Hindutva or Indianness or Indian culture are synonyms for each other. Hindutva has nothing to do with running the state in any direct manner. The view as aspoused by our supreme court was whole heartedly endorsed by the so called Hindu right.
The SC judgement was the SC's, but what exactly is Ram Rajya? Serious question- am not trying to bait you or your POV here.
Edit: Nevermind.
The problem is that while some people in the RSS may not want theocracy, there are some others who are muddled about it. I have heard VHP/ Baj. Dal speakers who want to bring Ram Rajya about -literally. And nor is it Ram Rajya in the metaphorical sense of an ideal state.
They are themselves unclear about what exactly a) They mean by it and b) What they want from it and c) The long term ramifications. They are caught up in a whirlpool of their own religious justification for every thing- using "Hindutva" as an excuse for their rampage on theaters to card shops. Is this what RR will be like? Their own actions indicate their confusion on this aspect.
Nor do I buy the fact that the senior leadership etc have everything well thought out, and can restrain the impulsive youth- if we see Gujarat, its clear that a) Either the leadership aids & abets or b) It lets things be since matters have come to a boil & it cant stop a chain reaction. Either ways, a religion based movement running the state on the basis of religion when many of its rank & file are conflating their personal dislike for activities such as V-Day or whatever with religion, is grounds for skepticism.
Third point- its good that the RSS et al strive to unite Hindu society, fight against casteism, defend it, but when they start making decisions for me, I have a problem, and in the past they have done so in a manner of speaking. So have the Congress etc- but, arent the Sangh & co supposed to be different and I would prefer that my religion & my lifestyle choices are best left to me to practise, and I particularly dislike anyone else telling me what I must do as compared to what I may do. Bloody Sushma Swaraj deciding that I must listen to bhajans in the train is stupid of her. Same female not putting Condoms ads on TV out of prudishness when we have 3.5 Million infected, is stupid. Thats where her personal issues become the nations problem. Multiply this conservatism times thousand, and yes, there are issues.
Fourth- the Sangh parivar concept of a religious revival is good, but their frequent resort to violence @ the drop of a hat leaves a bad taste in the mouth. Defending when forced to do so is one thing, without getting into too many details- I can also say that they have also taken it to the other extreme. And in that case, I dont like religion being used as an excuse for their own stupidity by some Sangh cadre & the former being unable to reign them in or even punish them or aid in their being brought to justice .
Fifth- the RSS should stay away from politics, period. Hinduism is still going through reform, it needs a lot of introspection before it clears itself of assorted detritus picked up through the years and rises back to its full potential & what it was. Ordinary Indians have become attuned to finding religious excuses for their own loathsome antics, and then using those excuses to continue. Yeh to "parampara hain". In such a milieu, a religious movement which becomes political, will draw the worst kind of scum in India- including the Chandraswamis who will then use the religion as a means to political capital. Absolute power corrupts absolutely, and the same analogy to some sense also holds true to why the IA should stay away from ruling India etc. You want the Sangh to remain true, dont give them power.
Lastly, the Sangh itself needs to focus on what its Hindutva movement means and undertake serious introspection, some ideas are ok, some are borderline and some I feel are plainly wrong, and can be ascribed to the leadership of the Sangh who are old & out of touch with practicality. I will stop here, but in a nutshell - these encompass why I feel the SC judgement apart, the Hindutva movement lacks clear goals and is often stuck in reactionary mode, which make it undertake more reactionary positions for getting their voice heard. This in turn damages their own movement, and b) is taken seriously by their rank & file, many of whom need a)proper education b) employment & c) a cool head rather than always reacting with their fists and stones against whatever they feel is wrong. It is these last who think that some kind of Ram Rajya/ theocracy in a literal sense will wipe out India's ills. I dont agree with that.
PostPosted: 30 Sep 2006 01:53 am
JCage ... I don't think you know Sang Parivar as well as you claim to do. If you knew any significant bit about RSS, you wouldn't be saying things like
Quote:
Sangh Parivar concept of a religious revival is good, but their frequent resort to violence @ the drop of a hat leaves a bad taste in the mouth.
Quote:
RSS should stay away from politics
You are confusing RSS, Sangh Parivar and BJP. This is not your fault, but RSS's fault for not clarifying things enough times. As much you like to believe, RSS, Sangh Parivar and BJP are not one and same. RSS leadership neither micromanages BJP and nor they have the desire to do so. This is directly coming from the Mohan Bhagwat, 2nd in command of RSS. They have better things to do. According to RSS, India is a democracy and correct things will happen only if the people demand it. RSS work is to only raise awareness among the people.
RSS's mission is to take Bharat to the Param Vaibhav (Pinnacle of Glory). They believe the way to do it to make every citizen of India a swayamsevak (loosely a model citizen) and active participant in the daily life of nation.
You seem to have to more knowledge than most people about Sangh Parivar, but you are also slave to the propaganda spewed out by media. I would urge you to spend more time with RSS people before you make such large categorical statements about RSS and Sangh Parivar.
Meanwhile, check out this video showcasing the 70,000 service projects run by RSS Swayamsevaks all over India http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=...9441914390
A counterquestion:
What is Hindutva wrt running the state?
I will rely on the Indian supreme court judgements on the this question. Hindutva or Indianness or Indian culture are synonyms for each other. Hindutva has nothing to do with running the state in any direct manner. The view as aspoused by our supreme court was whole heartedly endorsed by the so called Hindu right.
The SC judgement was the SC's, but what exactly is Ram Rajya? Serious question- am not trying to bait you or your POV here.
Edit: Nevermind.
The problem is that while some people in the RSS may not want theocracy, there are some others who are muddled about it. I have heard VHP/ Baj. Dal speakers who want to bring Ram Rajya about -literally. And nor is it Ram Rajya in the metaphorical sense of an ideal state.
They are themselves unclear about what exactly a) They mean by it and b) What they want from it and c) The long term ramifications. They are caught up in a whirlpool of their own religious justification for every thing- using "Hindutva" as an excuse for their rampage on theaters to card shops. Is this what RR will be like? Their own actions indicate their confusion on this aspect.
Nor do I buy the fact that the senior leadership etc have everything well thought out, and can restrain the impulsive youth- if we see Gujarat, its clear that a) Either the leadership aids & abets or b) It lets things be since matters have come to a boil & it cant stop a chain reaction. Either ways, a religion based movement running the state on the basis of religion when many of its rank & file are conflating their personal dislike for activities such as V-Day or whatever with religion, is grounds for skepticism.
Third point- its good that the RSS et al strive to unite Hindu society, fight against casteism, defend it, but when they start making decisions for me, I have a problem, and in the past they have done so in a manner of speaking. So have the Congress etc- but, arent the Sangh & co supposed to be different and I would prefer that my religion & my lifestyle choices are best left to me to practise, and I particularly dislike anyone else telling me what I must do as compared to what I may do. Bloody Sushma Swaraj deciding that I must listen to bhajans in the train is stupid of her. Same female not putting Condoms ads on TV out of prudishness when we have 3.5 Million infected, is stupid. Thats where her personal issues become the nations problem. Multiply this conservatism times thousand, and yes, there are issues.
Fourth- the Sangh parivar concept of a religious revival is good, but their frequent resort to violence @ the drop of a hat leaves a bad taste in the mouth. Defending when forced to do so is one thing, without getting into too many details- I can also say that they have also taken it to the other extreme. And in that case, I dont like religion being used as an excuse for their own stupidity by some Sangh cadre & the former being unable to reign them in or even punish them or aid in their being brought to justice .
Fifth- the RSS should stay away from politics, period. Hinduism is still going through reform, it needs a lot of introspection before it clears itself of assorted detritus picked up through the years and rises back to its full potential & what it was. Ordinary Indians have become attuned to finding religious excuses for their own loathsome antics, and then using those excuses to continue. Yeh to "parampara hain". In such a milieu, a religious movement which becomes political, will draw the worst kind of scum in India- including the Chandraswamis who will then use the religion as a means to political capital. Absolute power corrupts absolutely, and the same analogy to some sense also holds true to why the IA should stay away from ruling India etc. You want the Sangh to remain true, dont give them power.
Lastly, the Sangh itself needs to focus on what its Hindutva movement means and undertake serious introspection, some ideas are ok, some are borderline and some I feel are plainly wrong, and can be ascribed to the leadership of the Sangh who are old & out of touch with practicality. I will stop here, but in a nutshell - these encompass why I feel the SC judgement apart, the Hindutva movement lacks clear goals and is often stuck in reactionary mode, which make it undertake more reactionary positions for getting their voice heard. This in turn damages their own movement, and b) is taken seriously by their rank & file, many of whom need a)proper education b) employment & c) a cool head rather than always reacting with their fists and stones against whatever they feel is wrong. It is these last who think that some kind of Ram Rajya/ theocracy in a literal sense will wipe out India's ills. I dont agree with that.
PostPosted: 30 Sep 2006 01:53 am
JCage ... I don't think you know Sang Parivar as well as you claim to do. If you knew any significant bit about RSS, you wouldn't be saying things like
Quote:
Sangh Parivar concept of a religious revival is good, but their frequent resort to violence @ the drop of a hat leaves a bad taste in the mouth.
Quote:
RSS should stay away from politics
You are confusing RSS, Sangh Parivar and BJP. This is not your fault, but RSS's fault for not clarifying things enough times. As much you like to believe, RSS, Sangh Parivar and BJP are not one and same. RSS leadership neither micromanages BJP and nor they have the desire to do so. This is directly coming from the Mohan Bhagwat, 2nd in command of RSS. They have better things to do. According to RSS, India is a democracy and correct things will happen only if the people demand it. RSS work is to only raise awareness among the people.
RSS's mission is to take Bharat to the Param Vaibhav (Pinnacle of Glory). They believe the way to do it to make every citizen of India a swayamsevak (loosely a model citizen) and active participant in the daily life of nation.
You seem to have to more knowledge than most people about Sangh Parivar, but you are also slave to the propaganda spewed out by media. I would urge you to spend more time with RSS people before you make such large categorical statements about RSS and Sangh Parivar.
Meanwhile, check out this video showcasing the 70,000 service projects run by RSS Swayamsevaks all over India http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=...9441914390