10-05-2006, 10:37 PM
Wikipedia Talk section on Dalits:-
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Dalit
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->I understand that this is an issue that is emotionally sensitive. However, there are many many such issues at Wikipedia (e.g. Rus' (people) and Armenian genocide), and Wikipedia is guided by the principle of NPOV, which is non-negotiable. This is an excerpt from Indo-Aryan migration:
<b>A 2001 examination of male Y-DNA by Indian and American scientists indicated that higher castes are genetically closer to Western Eurasians than are individuals from lower castes, whose genetic profiles are similar to other Asians. According to [Bamshad et al. (2001)], higher caste Telugus have a higher frequency of haplogroup 3 (R1a1) than lower castes. Haplogroup 3 is also characteristic of Eastern Europeans. In the study, Bamshad and his team wrote, "Our results demonstrate that for biparentally inherited autosomal markers, genetic distances between upper, middle, and lower castes are significantly correlated with rank; upper castes are more similar to Europeans than to Asians; and upper castes are significantly more similar to Europeans than are lower castes."
How can this article possibly claim that the foreign origin of the upper castes is debunked? I also strongly react against the article's claim that the most common perception of the spread of the Indo-European languages is racist</b>.--Wiglaf 12:11, 18 September 2005 (UTC)
I don't think that the article is making either of these claims anymore. Further, from the introduction to the same paper that is cited in the Aryan migration article:
Previous genetic studies of Indian castes have failed to achieve a consensus on Indian origins and affinities. Various results have supported closer affinity of Indian castes either with Europeans or with Asians, and several factors underlie this inconsistency. First, erratic or limited sampling of populations has limited inferences about the relationships between caste and continental populations (i.e., Africans, Asians, Europeans). These relationships are further confounded by the wide geographic dispersal of caste populations. Genetic affinities among caste populations are, in part, inversely correlated with the geographic distance between them (Malhotra and Vasulu 1993), and it is likely that affinities between caste and continental populations are also geographically dependent (e.g., different between North and South Indian caste populations). Second, it has been suggested that castes of different rank may have originated from or admixed with different continental groups (Majumder and Mukherjee 1993). Third, the size of caste populations varies widely, and the effects of genetic drift on some small, geographically isolated castes may have been substantial.
The statements in the article at present claim that there isn't a clear biological basis for Dalit/untouchable status. <b>The differences between different Dalit groups- particularly geographically disperate Dalits- are probably as great or greater than the differences between a Dalit group and members of the local Shudra population. This study helps confirm the idea that Indo-Aryan speakers from Europe inserted themselves at the top of the caste system; it doesn't do anything to answer questions about the pre- or post-Aryan origins of the Dalit class, or establish a clear biological basis for determining who is of Dalit origin.</b> I think that the NPOV notice should stand, particularly because of problems with the verification of a lot of the statements on the current status and government attitudes towards Dalits, but I'm curious what you think about hte biological arguments as they currently stand. --Clay Collier 07:36, 16 October 2005 (UTC)
I can assure you that caste system is well and alive in India. <b>It is a part of National conscience and psyche</b>. Inter caste marriages do occur in India but only amongst upper castes. Caste system can be best defined as both racism as well as stringent class system based on birth origin. One's caste will remain the same for all future generations. Indian laws and constitution do outlaw caste system based discrimination (not caste system) If there were no laws oulawing discrimination the government would not be able to function in face of the sheer opposition and allegations of racism within India and internationally. But the bottomline is the unwritten laws and conventions. Caste system gets its backing from the people not from the Indian constitution. <b>Legitimacy of the Caste system is in inverse contrast with Britain where there is no written constitution but still democracy works so well. In Indian there are those unwritten laws of religion and society that establish caste system. Caste system is as much alive among Indian diaspora living in UK, USA, Canada, Fiji, Trinidad etc.
Caste system is bad only for outcasts, not for the ones it grants the privilleges on grounds of birth origin. People, who want to ransack Indian history, ancient texts can find that Caste system has been buttressed by many Indian texts, Bhagvad Githa being one of them (you may buy one from Hare Krishna sect in the West!) <span style='font-size:14pt;line-height:100%'><span style='color:red'>Manusmriti is the book that lays the unjust foundations of caste system and also includes several diktats for the outcaste whose sole purpose in life is to serve the ones with higher castes. Interestingly, Indian constitution does not outlaw these much revered and loved texts in India though Germany (a free country) has banned Mein Kemph</span></span>. </b>But to those who want to go to the intellectual depths may find nothing. Because caste system is nothing intellectual. Faith in it is as real as Muslim terrorists who blow themselves up think they're gonna get 72 virgins in heaven! As for modern dalit political leaders, well, they acquire power only by crying foul about the caste system and thus benefit through it. Dalit masses are as abused, messed around and forlorn as ever. In fact, the very day caste system is removed from the Indian mindset, their (dalit political leaders) hugely successful citadels of 'dalit power' will collapse leaving them jobless and powerless. But that is as impossible<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Dalit
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->I understand that this is an issue that is emotionally sensitive. However, there are many many such issues at Wikipedia (e.g. Rus' (people) and Armenian genocide), and Wikipedia is guided by the principle of NPOV, which is non-negotiable. This is an excerpt from Indo-Aryan migration:
<b>A 2001 examination of male Y-DNA by Indian and American scientists indicated that higher castes are genetically closer to Western Eurasians than are individuals from lower castes, whose genetic profiles are similar to other Asians. According to [Bamshad et al. (2001)], higher caste Telugus have a higher frequency of haplogroup 3 (R1a1) than lower castes. Haplogroup 3 is also characteristic of Eastern Europeans. In the study, Bamshad and his team wrote, "Our results demonstrate that for biparentally inherited autosomal markers, genetic distances between upper, middle, and lower castes are significantly correlated with rank; upper castes are more similar to Europeans than to Asians; and upper castes are significantly more similar to Europeans than are lower castes."
How can this article possibly claim that the foreign origin of the upper castes is debunked? I also strongly react against the article's claim that the most common perception of the spread of the Indo-European languages is racist</b>.--Wiglaf 12:11, 18 September 2005 (UTC)
I don't think that the article is making either of these claims anymore. Further, from the introduction to the same paper that is cited in the Aryan migration article:
Previous genetic studies of Indian castes have failed to achieve a consensus on Indian origins and affinities. Various results have supported closer affinity of Indian castes either with Europeans or with Asians, and several factors underlie this inconsistency. First, erratic or limited sampling of populations has limited inferences about the relationships between caste and continental populations (i.e., Africans, Asians, Europeans). These relationships are further confounded by the wide geographic dispersal of caste populations. Genetic affinities among caste populations are, in part, inversely correlated with the geographic distance between them (Malhotra and Vasulu 1993), and it is likely that affinities between caste and continental populations are also geographically dependent (e.g., different between North and South Indian caste populations). Second, it has been suggested that castes of different rank may have originated from or admixed with different continental groups (Majumder and Mukherjee 1993). Third, the size of caste populations varies widely, and the effects of genetic drift on some small, geographically isolated castes may have been substantial.
The statements in the article at present claim that there isn't a clear biological basis for Dalit/untouchable status. <b>The differences between different Dalit groups- particularly geographically disperate Dalits- are probably as great or greater than the differences between a Dalit group and members of the local Shudra population. This study helps confirm the idea that Indo-Aryan speakers from Europe inserted themselves at the top of the caste system; it doesn't do anything to answer questions about the pre- or post-Aryan origins of the Dalit class, or establish a clear biological basis for determining who is of Dalit origin.</b> I think that the NPOV notice should stand, particularly because of problems with the verification of a lot of the statements on the current status and government attitudes towards Dalits, but I'm curious what you think about hte biological arguments as they currently stand. --Clay Collier 07:36, 16 October 2005 (UTC)
I can assure you that caste system is well and alive in India. <b>It is a part of National conscience and psyche</b>. Inter caste marriages do occur in India but only amongst upper castes. Caste system can be best defined as both racism as well as stringent class system based on birth origin. One's caste will remain the same for all future generations. Indian laws and constitution do outlaw caste system based discrimination (not caste system) If there were no laws oulawing discrimination the government would not be able to function in face of the sheer opposition and allegations of racism within India and internationally. But the bottomline is the unwritten laws and conventions. Caste system gets its backing from the people not from the Indian constitution. <b>Legitimacy of the Caste system is in inverse contrast with Britain where there is no written constitution but still democracy works so well. In Indian there are those unwritten laws of religion and society that establish caste system. Caste system is as much alive among Indian diaspora living in UK, USA, Canada, Fiji, Trinidad etc.
Caste system is bad only for outcasts, not for the ones it grants the privilleges on grounds of birth origin. People, who want to ransack Indian history, ancient texts can find that Caste system has been buttressed by many Indian texts, Bhagvad Githa being one of them (you may buy one from Hare Krishna sect in the West!) <span style='font-size:14pt;line-height:100%'><span style='color:red'>Manusmriti is the book that lays the unjust foundations of caste system and also includes several diktats for the outcaste whose sole purpose in life is to serve the ones with higher castes. Interestingly, Indian constitution does not outlaw these much revered and loved texts in India though Germany (a free country) has banned Mein Kemph</span></span>. </b>But to those who want to go to the intellectual depths may find nothing. Because caste system is nothing intellectual. Faith in it is as real as Muslim terrorists who blow themselves up think they're gonna get 72 virgins in heaven! As for modern dalit political leaders, well, they acquire power only by crying foul about the caste system and thus benefit through it. Dalit masses are as abused, messed around and forlorn as ever. In fact, the very day caste system is removed from the Indian mindset, their (dalit political leaders) hugely successful citadels of 'dalit power' will collapse leaving them jobless and powerless. But that is as impossible<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->