11-30-2006, 08:22 AM
<!--QuoteBegin-kartiksri+Nov 30 2006, 01:30 AM-->QUOTE(kartiksri @ Nov 30 2006, 01:30 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-digvijay+Nov 29 2006, 12:04 AM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(digvijay @ Nov 29 2006, 12:04 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->Kartiksri,
 Your claim that British rule in India was beneficial is just plain wrong. Sine there is no way you can judge the alternative i.e what would have happened had India not been under British please analyse why is that all contributions of India to science/maths/literature stopped after the arrival of muslims and British.
-Digvijay
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My basic belief, you can never be sure 100% to assert clearly on such issues, you can only debate, especially with people having contrarian positions and see if there is any substance to what they say.
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No. It is very clear that India entered into "dark ages" with the advent of muslims and british. Though Islamic/Brit(Western)/and our own Marxist historians (read JNU crowd) would want us to believe that
a) India was never a geographically united entity before the arrival of muslims and Brits.
b) They gave us such wonderful things as beautiful architecture, science, railways etc.
Both a) and b) are falsehoods. Rearding architecture if you get a chance please read
Jahanara's memoirs. (She was the daughter of Shah Jahan and has written a very detailed account of her life and of course that of Shah Jahan).
The core of calculus, i.e elements like instantaneuos velocity were known to Indians hundreds of years before Newton.
Aftert the advent of these invaders our kings were mainly fighting for keeping there religion alive and there courts could not afford to employ researchers in astronomy, mathematics, science, music etc. The revenue sources of the kings declined (as constant wars meant constant plunder of the produce and detrimental effect on trade).
<!--QuoteBegin-kartiksri+Nov 30 2006, 01:30 AM-->QUOTE(kartiksri @ Nov 30 2006, 01:30 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->
My present position very clearly on this issue
1. British had only their interests in their mind, which off course we all know and all their claims about White Man's burden etc. are just weak moralistic attempts to justify their colonial exploitation. So British had no benevolent attitude to Indians, it would be naive to expect anything like that.
2. British occupation affected us in many negative ways, one thing it ruined our economy. But I would like to point out that even during Mughal rule was the economy equitable. just bcos Shahjahan made Taj Mahal doesn't mean that all was well with the peasantry. Though very frankly I can't make assertions on any of the above as I have to go thru the data. Thanks for giving some links. I'll also go thru the relevant thread in this forum.
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Yup. Read about Taj Mahal in Jahanara's book.
<!--QuoteBegin-kartiksri+Nov 30 2006, 01:30 AM-->QUOTE(kartiksri @ Nov 30 2006, 01:30 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->3. My assertion is that the colonialism of Britishers pushed us together, we got the convenient other to come together against and helped form the modern concept of nationalism in Indians and also allowed for a democratic India to emerge. The modern concept of nationalism is different from earlier conceptions of national consciousness. Though on the last sentence my thoughts are yet to form and are open for review.
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Not really. Since Hinduism is a fatalistic religion it is very hard to arouse Hindu sentiment. Slave mentality seeped into the veins of Indians and is still thriving in all Indians. Why do you think we have a culture of "yes boss?". Indians as a collective group are largely devoid of _any_ kind of nationalism or pride in there culture.
<!--QuoteBegin-kartiksri+Nov 30 2006, 01:30 AM-->QUOTE(kartiksri @ Nov 30 2006, 01:30 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->P.S.: Pls check on contributions to Maths/Science/Philosophy etc. after the advent of muslim rule in India. Muslim rule definitely affected it negatively, but it was not altogether stopped. Please check on the advances on Kerala mathematicians in 14-16th centuries. It's amazing, though I don't understand much of it (sad bcos coming from an engineering background, I'm supposed to understand it) There are some claims that the invention of Calculus in 17th century has some link with the Keralites. Also I think the branch of philosphy called "Navya Nyaya" (a varaint of the Nyaya philosophy) also came in the medieval age. Though I accept your point that the contributions did become less after the advent of Muslim rule in India.
[right][snapback]61533[/snapback][/right]
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It is quite white and black actually i.e contributions before and after. Pointing out few isolated items are just outliers. Note our universities, Takshila and Nalanda got burnt and the libraries there burnt for days. It is said that these unversities gave out PhD's and there system was copied by Greeks which latter transformed in what we know of Thesis defence/orals etc. Just imagine what treasure trove we have missed because these Islamics burnt our books. What our ancient forefathers would have researched and jotted down in there thesis?
I will close by Basham's "Cultural History of India" : (Following excerpt from Page 193 of this book)
--begin quote
"The Turkish conquests of more then half India between 900 and 1300 A.D were perhaps the most destructive in human history. As Muslims, the conquerors aimed not only to destroy all other religions but also to abolish the secular culture. Their burning of libraries explains the large gaps in our knowledge of earlier literature......"
--end quote
Arthur Llewellyn Basham (AL Basham) was a historian with the Australian National University in Canberra. His most popular book is The Wonder That was India.
He joined the ANU in 1965 as Professor of Oriental (later Asian) Civilizations and retired in 1979. He died in Calcutta in India in 1986. An annual public lecture series is given at the ANU in his memory.
-Digvijay
 Your claim that British rule in India was beneficial is just plain wrong. Sine there is no way you can judge the alternative i.e what would have happened had India not been under British please analyse why is that all contributions of India to science/maths/literature stopped after the arrival of muslims and British.
-Digvijay
[right][snapback]61471[/snapback][/right]
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
My basic belief, you can never be sure 100% to assert clearly on such issues, you can only debate, especially with people having contrarian positions and see if there is any substance to what they say.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No. It is very clear that India entered into "dark ages" with the advent of muslims and british. Though Islamic/Brit(Western)/and our own Marxist historians (read JNU crowd) would want us to believe that
a) India was never a geographically united entity before the arrival of muslims and Brits.
b) They gave us such wonderful things as beautiful architecture, science, railways etc.
Both a) and b) are falsehoods. Rearding architecture if you get a chance please read
Jahanara's memoirs. (She was the daughter of Shah Jahan and has written a very detailed account of her life and of course that of Shah Jahan).
The core of calculus, i.e elements like instantaneuos velocity were known to Indians hundreds of years before Newton.
Aftert the advent of these invaders our kings were mainly fighting for keeping there religion alive and there courts could not afford to employ researchers in astronomy, mathematics, science, music etc. The revenue sources of the kings declined (as constant wars meant constant plunder of the produce and detrimental effect on trade).
<!--QuoteBegin-kartiksri+Nov 30 2006, 01:30 AM-->QUOTE(kartiksri @ Nov 30 2006, 01:30 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->
My present position very clearly on this issue
1. British had only their interests in their mind, which off course we all know and all their claims about White Man's burden etc. are just weak moralistic attempts to justify their colonial exploitation. So British had no benevolent attitude to Indians, it would be naive to expect anything like that.
2. British occupation affected us in many negative ways, one thing it ruined our economy. But I would like to point out that even during Mughal rule was the economy equitable. just bcos Shahjahan made Taj Mahal doesn't mean that all was well with the peasantry. Though very frankly I can't make assertions on any of the above as I have to go thru the data. Thanks for giving some links. I'll also go thru the relevant thread in this forum.
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yup. Read about Taj Mahal in Jahanara's book.
<!--QuoteBegin-kartiksri+Nov 30 2006, 01:30 AM-->QUOTE(kartiksri @ Nov 30 2006, 01:30 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->3. My assertion is that the colonialism of Britishers pushed us together, we got the convenient other to come together against and helped form the modern concept of nationalism in Indians and also allowed for a democratic India to emerge. The modern concept of nationalism is different from earlier conceptions of national consciousness. Though on the last sentence my thoughts are yet to form and are open for review.
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not really. Since Hinduism is a fatalistic religion it is very hard to arouse Hindu sentiment. Slave mentality seeped into the veins of Indians and is still thriving in all Indians. Why do you think we have a culture of "yes boss?". Indians as a collective group are largely devoid of _any_ kind of nationalism or pride in there culture.
<!--QuoteBegin-kartiksri+Nov 30 2006, 01:30 AM-->QUOTE(kartiksri @ Nov 30 2006, 01:30 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->P.S.: Pls check on contributions to Maths/Science/Philosophy etc. after the advent of muslim rule in India. Muslim rule definitely affected it negatively, but it was not altogether stopped. Please check on the advances on Kerala mathematicians in 14-16th centuries. It's amazing, though I don't understand much of it (sad bcos coming from an engineering background, I'm supposed to understand it) There are some claims that the invention of Calculus in 17th century has some link with the Keralites. Also I think the branch of philosphy called "Navya Nyaya" (a varaint of the Nyaya philosophy) also came in the medieval age. Though I accept your point that the contributions did become less after the advent of Muslim rule in India.
[right][snapback]61533[/snapback][/right]
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It is quite white and black actually i.e contributions before and after. Pointing out few isolated items are just outliers. Note our universities, Takshila and Nalanda got burnt and the libraries there burnt for days. It is said that these unversities gave out PhD's and there system was copied by Greeks which latter transformed in what we know of Thesis defence/orals etc. Just imagine what treasure trove we have missed because these Islamics burnt our books. What our ancient forefathers would have researched and jotted down in there thesis?
I will close by Basham's "Cultural History of India" : (Following excerpt from Page 193 of this book)
--begin quote
"The Turkish conquests of more then half India between 900 and 1300 A.D were perhaps the most destructive in human history. As Muslims, the conquerors aimed not only to destroy all other religions but also to abolish the secular culture. Their burning of libraries explains the large gaps in our knowledge of earlier literature......"
--end quote
Arthur Llewellyn Basham (AL Basham) was a historian with the Australian National University in Canberra. His most popular book is The Wonder That was India.
He joined the ANU in 1965 as Professor of Oriental (later Asian) Civilizations and retired in 1979. He died in Calcutta in India in 1986. An annual public lecture series is given at the ANU in his memory.
-Digvijay