12-08-2006, 08:40 PM
<!--QuoteBegin-kartiksri+Dec 9 2006, 01:28 AM-->QUOTE(kartiksri @ Dec 9 2006, 01:28 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-digvijay+Dec 9 2006, 12:56 AM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(digvijay @ Dec 9 2006, 12:56 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-kartiksri+Dec 8 2006, 07:39 PM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(kartiksri @ Dec 8 2006, 07:39 PM)<!--QuoteEBegin--><Zoroastrian commentary snipped>
Compare it with India in 10th-13th centuries and thereafter. Hinduism because of its inherent tolerant spirit was going through a period of revival after the degradation to tantrism etc in the post Gupta period.
We are really fortunate that we had a figure like Adi Shankara at the right time. I can tell you with some confidence, that India is Hindu today is in no small measure due to this great saint and scholar. Adi Shankara made us spiritual yet again, gave us faith, put in a framework and system to accomodate all strands of thought. Then came Ramanuja, the Saivite Nayanars and Vaishnavite Alwars, who brought a belief in devotion to God in the laity. India at the advent of Islam in India was politically weak, but religiously strong and the general public had faith in their religious beliefs.
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You are arguing unnecessarily Kartik. Faith has nothing to do with the survival of Hinduism. Hindus survived because they fought. You are not to able to comprehend what a war and fighting it really means. You fail to understand that Islamic armies carried crescent over thousands of square miles even to Spain and converted these lands completely. This was done through sword. Had Hindus lost completely you would be reading a Kalma today. A defeated population has no God or choice to follow a God no matter they are followers of Hinduism or xyz.
Please research more.
-Digvijay
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Faith is the fuel for anything to work. When you are in battle in the midst of fierce hordes of your enemy, what is the belief that keeps your hand on your sword. Why do people jump into battle fray taking the name of Lord. Please tell me why did Rajputs fight, why did the Shahis fight down to their last ruler, why did the Vijayanagara empire come about because first and foremost we had a strong set of beliefs, which differed from those who sought to subjugate us. Unless there were those set of beliefs which matched in their strength of faith to those held by Muslims, we would not have stood our ground. Even today where do soldiers get their josh, where do they get the patience to keep a timeless vigil. Our religion gives us a stability and assurance. First it was faith and then it was sword. Without the faith the sword would just be a piece of metal, with the faith it become the defender of your honour and traditions.
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Ok. So you are realising now fight is what saves the religion and religion does not save itself.
Good. Yes Hindu kshatriyas always fought to preserve there Dharam and there religion.
Had they not fought there is nothing inherent in the religion that would have saved itself or the population of India from becoming converts to Islam.
Actually James Tod, though a Brit sums it up quite well in his annals and antiuities of ancient rajasthan:
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->What nation on earth could have maintained the semblance of civilization, the spirit or the customs of their forefathers, during so many centuries of overwhelming depression, but one of such singular character as the Rajpoot? . . . Rajasthan exhibits the sole example in the history of mankind, of a people withstanding every outrage barbarity could inflict, or human nature sustain, from a foe whose religion (Islam) commands annihilation; and bent to the earth, yet rising buoyant from the pressure, and making calamity a whetstone to courage. . . . Not an iota of their religion or customs have they lost.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin-kartiksri+Dec 9 2006, 01:28 AM-->QUOTE(kartiksri @ Dec 9 2006, 01:28 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->You look at Islam and Arabs themselves. In 6th century they were nothing, within a century and half they had conquerod far off Spain. What suddenly changed in a nomadic desert people that they became world conquerors. It was not as if they were non-martial before and suddenly an entire community became brave. It was not as if they found some new military technology hiteherto unfound. The change and the only change which caused all other changes was Islam. What did Islam give to these people. It gave them a strong set of beliefs by which they could live and die. It was faith.
[right][snapback]61872[/snapback][/right]
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It was the concept of Jihaad and the proximity of virgins in heaven.
-Digvijay
Compare it with India in 10th-13th centuries and thereafter. Hinduism because of its inherent tolerant spirit was going through a period of revival after the degradation to tantrism etc in the post Gupta period.
We are really fortunate that we had a figure like Adi Shankara at the right time. I can tell you with some confidence, that India is Hindu today is in no small measure due to this great saint and scholar. Adi Shankara made us spiritual yet again, gave us faith, put in a framework and system to accomodate all strands of thought. Then came Ramanuja, the Saivite Nayanars and Vaishnavite Alwars, who brought a belief in devotion to God in the laity. India at the advent of Islam in India was politically weak, but religiously strong and the general public had faith in their religious beliefs.
[right][snapback]61840[/snapback][/right]
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You are arguing unnecessarily Kartik. Faith has nothing to do with the survival of Hinduism. Hindus survived because they fought. You are not to able to comprehend what a war and fighting it really means. You fail to understand that Islamic armies carried crescent over thousands of square miles even to Spain and converted these lands completely. This was done through sword. Had Hindus lost completely you would be reading a Kalma today. A defeated population has no God or choice to follow a God no matter they are followers of Hinduism or xyz.
Please research more.
-Digvijay
[right][snapback]61865[/snapback][/right]
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Faith is the fuel for anything to work. When you are in battle in the midst of fierce hordes of your enemy, what is the belief that keeps your hand on your sword. Why do people jump into battle fray taking the name of Lord. Please tell me why did Rajputs fight, why did the Shahis fight down to their last ruler, why did the Vijayanagara empire come about because first and foremost we had a strong set of beliefs, which differed from those who sought to subjugate us. Unless there were those set of beliefs which matched in their strength of faith to those held by Muslims, we would not have stood our ground. Even today where do soldiers get their josh, where do they get the patience to keep a timeless vigil. Our religion gives us a stability and assurance. First it was faith and then it was sword. Without the faith the sword would just be a piece of metal, with the faith it become the defender of your honour and traditions.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ok. So you are realising now fight is what saves the religion and religion does not save itself.
Good. Yes Hindu kshatriyas always fought to preserve there Dharam and there religion.
Had they not fought there is nothing inherent in the religion that would have saved itself or the population of India from becoming converts to Islam.
Actually James Tod, though a Brit sums it up quite well in his annals and antiuities of ancient rajasthan:
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->What nation on earth could have maintained the semblance of civilization, the spirit or the customs of their forefathers, during so many centuries of overwhelming depression, but one of such singular character as the Rajpoot? . . . Rajasthan exhibits the sole example in the history of mankind, of a people withstanding every outrage barbarity could inflict, or human nature sustain, from a foe whose religion (Islam) commands annihilation; and bent to the earth, yet rising buoyant from the pressure, and making calamity a whetstone to courage. . . . Not an iota of their religion or customs have they lost.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin-kartiksri+Dec 9 2006, 01:28 AM-->QUOTE(kartiksri @ Dec 9 2006, 01:28 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->You look at Islam and Arabs themselves. In 6th century they were nothing, within a century and half they had conquerod far off Spain. What suddenly changed in a nomadic desert people that they became world conquerors. It was not as if they were non-martial before and suddenly an entire community became brave. It was not as if they found some new military technology hiteherto unfound. The change and the only change which caused all other changes was Islam. What did Islam give to these people. It gave them a strong set of beliefs by which they could live and die. It was faith.
[right][snapback]61872[/snapback][/right]
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It was the concept of Jihaad and the proximity of virgins in heaven.
-Digvijay