11-06-2007, 11:17 PM
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->I am sorry but are you saying that until the criminals of '84 are brought to justice, there can be no discussion of any kinds of mass murder and mayhem targeted at any community? <!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I am sorry but where exactly did you learn to read? Care to point where and when I said that "mass murder and mayhem targeted at any community" does not require discussion?
My point was simple: People- especially of the Left and Congress ilk appear to be using the Gujarat case as some kind of indelible stain on "secular" India, whereas they are all too keen to avoid discussing what their favourite herrows did to get the issue to that stage!
When I grew up, there was no NDA, no BJP- they were non entities. It was this great Congress, aided and abetted by the Left that still conducted pogroms galore and finally landed us in this present stage!
Is discussing that too hard to conceive of?
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->On this forum we are supposed to be patriots. And we are supposed to be logical and committed to India's security and welfare. I assume that means security and welfare for all Indians, right? So how is it logical to react to outrage against the killings of 2002 by invoking all the very real evil deeds of Congress? If I am outraged at the targeted killings of Muslims in 2002, does that make me a condoner of the targeted killings of Sikhs in 1984, or the attacks on Hindus in Kashmir, or the crime against humanity and Hindus that was Jinnah's call for Direct Action? (Or, gasp, a Congress Agent, whatever that is?) Or does it just make the 2002 slaughters the most recent in a series of horrifically cruel and violent episodes--therefore getting the most recent condemnation--that have undermined our country's welfare, security and even basic humanity? <!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Dear Rao, <i>if</i> you were to prance about the forum (as certain gents have done- not you), quivering with outrage about the nasty VHP and whatever AND claiming that it was a one off or taking partisan shots about how your bunch of tribals (Congress) are better than that bunch of tribals (insert the opponent)- then yes, it is ABSOLUTELY germaine for it to be pointed out that you are talking through your hat.
That is what Amitabh did. He deserves the response that I gave him - pointing out that his heroes, in whom he has invested so much moral support and sanctimony ( a defense of the Congress any time they are criticized), have a bunch of mass murderers in their midst and they have had zero compulsion in bringing them to justice.
IF you restricted yourself to Gujarat 2002 without bringing in accounts of the bravery of "your" tribals and how their arrow is the longest, then others (like me) who detest all politicians <b>wouldnt </b>have to point out that the emperor has no clothes.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->On a personal note, when I took up a signature campaign in 1984 to demand action against the congress officials who murdered Sikhs, I can't tell you how many times I was asked by hecklers, "where were you when Sikhs were killing Hindus?" So, forgive me for thinking that the reaction of bringing up the '84 massacres of Sikhs as a kind of 'defense' against condemnation of the '02 massacres of Muslims may have less to do with actual outrage on behalf of the Sikh victims and more to do with engaging in morally obfuscatory tactics, using whatever other victim 'Y' that comes to mind when someone talks about a victim 'X'. <!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Oh please! As a Hindu, I have been heckled countless times by Sikhs in India and abroad, by their HR supporters about how "my community" committed a pogrom- when it was these Congress types who did it. I have assisted others financially who had to resettle on account of what happened in '84. These beloved Congress guys went from house to house inciting people to "treat these Sikhs a lesson as they did to Hindus in Punjab" and you think that attitude came spontaneously?
I have classmates and friends who lost kith and kin in 1984, and I treat your assertion of yours about moral obfuscation and the like with the contempt that it deserves.
As an Indian, my country and I have been held culpable for the actions of these "deshbhakts" who are now suddely aware of the Gujarat 2002 "holocaust" committed by "Moditva". Gee, and they didnt have anything to do with it, right? How many years has Modi ruled Gujarat vs the Congress, hmm?
We suffered for decades thanks to the misdeeds of these idiotic political parties who had complete untrammelled control of India, created the present situation and now these "oh so liberal types" have suddenly discovered riots in India and "misdeeds" vs "evil 2002". Why? Because their kith and kin are in the Congress and of course, the Grand old party of India just made "mistakes".
Such equivocation may work for you. It doesnt for me.
I <b>am </b>outraged at the fact that somebody can even quote the Congress as being "brave" in Kashmir or whatever given the role it has played in bringing the situation in India -including Kashmir- about, for which it is primarily culpable.
And yet we have apologists for the Congress, taking a morally higher stand than those "of other parties" who are "not as good as theirs"?!
If you have a problem with understanding what someone wrote- next time, ASK before you start off on your soapbox.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Please, let's not act like it is somehow controversial or unpatriotic to stand up against the mass murder of people (who by the way don't even have to be innocent, I hate the whole 'targeting innocents' bit, that's so wolf-and-lambish; all I have to do is to declare you guilty of something then I am free to kill you.). <!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Kindly dont use my shoulder to fire your drivel from. If you can point out ONE post where I have questioned anyones patriotism for questioning Gujarat, point it out.
Otherwise, maintain a modicum of intellectual honesty and stand on your soapbox versus those who debate on similar lines.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->The killings of Muslims (yes, I am talking deliberately about the killings of Muslims only here) was not a sacred or holy thing that happened, that we at BRF of all places should be jumping up and down in, if not in the direct defense of those killings, at least in their implied defense. In case anyone is missing the point, such behavior is typical of Pakistani morality, we don't bring any credit on ourselves when we even remotely infringe on that particular copyright. <!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Get off your silly high horse please.
Its Amitabh & others like him who implied that Gujarat was something out of the ordinary "Moditva", "experiment" - not others. One gentleman parroted the usual "Gujarat experiment" and then self vamoosed from BRF after trying to heckle posters. No mention of the fact that the "Gujarat experiment" has been the "MP experiment", the "UP experiment", the ..by their beloved tribal institution.
As far as I am concerned, Gujarat is one in a long line in similar incidents dating from Indian independence where the utter breakdown of law and order (for whatever reason- whether it be accidental or deliberate) has lead the beautiful gentle people of India to take the law in their own hands and deliver vigilante "justice" on whosoever was nearest. With all the subtlety and surety of dropping JDAMs into the middle of a city block whereas the actual perpetrator is a mile away.
As regards calling me a Pakistani and thereof, its folks like you who cause most of the damage. Each time some discussion like this comes up, some immature chap like you will promptly get on his high horse and then start claiming how moral he is versus the rest. And of course, whats better than dubbing everyone else Pakistani or implying that their attitude is such.
Not much different from the other tactic of "why, why, you are a NAZI"..perhaps we need a local equivalent of Godwins law.
It is you who has implied that the "killing of Muslims" is some "sacred or holy thing" (whatever that is supposed to mean) as compared to treating the death of ANY Indian in rioting (as compared to justice delivered by the state) as illegal and pointless. Not least because riots INVARIABLY lead to mostly innocents getting affected whereas the actual perpetrators get scot free. In fact it is this entire business of treating the killing of "Muslims as a holy thing" whereas the others get a free pass, and the wide perception thereof of this being the state of affairs, that has led to the current issue.
And that as far as India is concerned, the Gujaratis are no better than you and I as far as moral superiority is concerned.
And frankly, I dont give a damn about what the Pakistanis do or dont. Chaps like you might- and there is nothing more Pakistani than looking at someone else and defining your behaviour by being what the "other" isnt.
I am sorry but where exactly did you learn to read? Care to point where and when I said that "mass murder and mayhem targeted at any community" does not require discussion?
My point was simple: People- especially of the Left and Congress ilk appear to be using the Gujarat case as some kind of indelible stain on "secular" India, whereas they are all too keen to avoid discussing what their favourite herrows did to get the issue to that stage!
When I grew up, there was no NDA, no BJP- they were non entities. It was this great Congress, aided and abetted by the Left that still conducted pogroms galore and finally landed us in this present stage!
Is discussing that too hard to conceive of?
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->On this forum we are supposed to be patriots. And we are supposed to be logical and committed to India's security and welfare. I assume that means security and welfare for all Indians, right? So how is it logical to react to outrage against the killings of 2002 by invoking all the very real evil deeds of Congress? If I am outraged at the targeted killings of Muslims in 2002, does that make me a condoner of the targeted killings of Sikhs in 1984, or the attacks on Hindus in Kashmir, or the crime against humanity and Hindus that was Jinnah's call for Direct Action? (Or, gasp, a Congress Agent, whatever that is?) Or does it just make the 2002 slaughters the most recent in a series of horrifically cruel and violent episodes--therefore getting the most recent condemnation--that have undermined our country's welfare, security and even basic humanity? <!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Dear Rao, <i>if</i> you were to prance about the forum (as certain gents have done- not you), quivering with outrage about the nasty VHP and whatever AND claiming that it was a one off or taking partisan shots about how your bunch of tribals (Congress) are better than that bunch of tribals (insert the opponent)- then yes, it is ABSOLUTELY germaine for it to be pointed out that you are talking through your hat.
That is what Amitabh did. He deserves the response that I gave him - pointing out that his heroes, in whom he has invested so much moral support and sanctimony ( a defense of the Congress any time they are criticized), have a bunch of mass murderers in their midst and they have had zero compulsion in bringing them to justice.
IF you restricted yourself to Gujarat 2002 without bringing in accounts of the bravery of "your" tribals and how their arrow is the longest, then others (like me) who detest all politicians <b>wouldnt </b>have to point out that the emperor has no clothes.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->On a personal note, when I took up a signature campaign in 1984 to demand action against the congress officials who murdered Sikhs, I can't tell you how many times I was asked by hecklers, "where were you when Sikhs were killing Hindus?" So, forgive me for thinking that the reaction of bringing up the '84 massacres of Sikhs as a kind of 'defense' against condemnation of the '02 massacres of Muslims may have less to do with actual outrage on behalf of the Sikh victims and more to do with engaging in morally obfuscatory tactics, using whatever other victim 'Y' that comes to mind when someone talks about a victim 'X'. <!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Oh please! As a Hindu, I have been heckled countless times by Sikhs in India and abroad, by their HR supporters about how "my community" committed a pogrom- when it was these Congress types who did it. I have assisted others financially who had to resettle on account of what happened in '84. These beloved Congress guys went from house to house inciting people to "treat these Sikhs a lesson as they did to Hindus in Punjab" and you think that attitude came spontaneously?
I have classmates and friends who lost kith and kin in 1984, and I treat your assertion of yours about moral obfuscation and the like with the contempt that it deserves.
As an Indian, my country and I have been held culpable for the actions of these "deshbhakts" who are now suddely aware of the Gujarat 2002 "holocaust" committed by "Moditva". Gee, and they didnt have anything to do with it, right? How many years has Modi ruled Gujarat vs the Congress, hmm?
We suffered for decades thanks to the misdeeds of these idiotic political parties who had complete untrammelled control of India, created the present situation and now these "oh so liberal types" have suddenly discovered riots in India and "misdeeds" vs "evil 2002". Why? Because their kith and kin are in the Congress and of course, the Grand old party of India just made "mistakes".
Such equivocation may work for you. It doesnt for me.
I <b>am </b>outraged at the fact that somebody can even quote the Congress as being "brave" in Kashmir or whatever given the role it has played in bringing the situation in India -including Kashmir- about, for which it is primarily culpable.
And yet we have apologists for the Congress, taking a morally higher stand than those "of other parties" who are "not as good as theirs"?!
If you have a problem with understanding what someone wrote- next time, ASK before you start off on your soapbox.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Please, let's not act like it is somehow controversial or unpatriotic to stand up against the mass murder of people (who by the way don't even have to be innocent, I hate the whole 'targeting innocents' bit, that's so wolf-and-lambish; all I have to do is to declare you guilty of something then I am free to kill you.). <!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Kindly dont use my shoulder to fire your drivel from. If you can point out ONE post where I have questioned anyones patriotism for questioning Gujarat, point it out.
Otherwise, maintain a modicum of intellectual honesty and stand on your soapbox versus those who debate on similar lines.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->The killings of Muslims (yes, I am talking deliberately about the killings of Muslims only here) was not a sacred or holy thing that happened, that we at BRF of all places should be jumping up and down in, if not in the direct defense of those killings, at least in their implied defense. In case anyone is missing the point, such behavior is typical of Pakistani morality, we don't bring any credit on ourselves when we even remotely infringe on that particular copyright. <!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Get off your silly high horse please.
Its Amitabh & others like him who implied that Gujarat was something out of the ordinary "Moditva", "experiment" - not others. One gentleman parroted the usual "Gujarat experiment" and then self vamoosed from BRF after trying to heckle posters. No mention of the fact that the "Gujarat experiment" has been the "MP experiment", the "UP experiment", the ..by their beloved tribal institution.
As far as I am concerned, Gujarat is one in a long line in similar incidents dating from Indian independence where the utter breakdown of law and order (for whatever reason- whether it be accidental or deliberate) has lead the beautiful gentle people of India to take the law in their own hands and deliver vigilante "justice" on whosoever was nearest. With all the subtlety and surety of dropping JDAMs into the middle of a city block whereas the actual perpetrator is a mile away.
As regards calling me a Pakistani and thereof, its folks like you who cause most of the damage. Each time some discussion like this comes up, some immature chap like you will promptly get on his high horse and then start claiming how moral he is versus the rest. And of course, whats better than dubbing everyone else Pakistani or implying that their attitude is such.
Not much different from the other tactic of "why, why, you are a NAZI"..perhaps we need a local equivalent of Godwins law.
It is you who has implied that the "killing of Muslims" is some "sacred or holy thing" (whatever that is supposed to mean) as compared to treating the death of ANY Indian in rioting (as compared to justice delivered by the state) as illegal and pointless. Not least because riots INVARIABLY lead to mostly innocents getting affected whereas the actual perpetrators get scot free. In fact it is this entire business of treating the killing of "Muslims as a holy thing" whereas the others get a free pass, and the wide perception thereof of this being the state of affairs, that has led to the current issue.
And that as far as India is concerned, the Gujaratis are no better than you and I as far as moral superiority is concerned.
And frankly, I dont give a damn about what the Pakistanis do or dont. Chaps like you might- and there is nothing more Pakistani than looking at someone else and defining your behaviour by being what the "other" isnt.