07-08-2004, 03:49 AM
Sunder,
Please take the following with a pinch of salt.
The vedantic view, as I am sure you are aware of, is that there is a SINGLE SELF in the whole of universe. And that self is same as the all pervading Brahman, which can be described as sat-chit-ananda.
The problems come in the sense of separate 'I' that so many beings possess. This sense of separate 'I' or ego is not the true self, but a supposed self. At any given time we identify with so many different things. If someone abuses my county I feel hurt because I identify with my country. These identifications range from, body, mind, possessions, personality, family, nation, caste, species, and even preferred football teams! But none of these are necessary for the real self. Body can be cut part by part but still the sense of self remains. A person may go mad, so that his personality is shattered, but he still maintains a sense of self.
If someone pinches my finger I say 'I am hurt'. But if the same finger is cut off in an accident, my sense of 'I' doesn't go away with that finger. But at some point of bodily damage our identification with the body becomes implausible. That is the moment of physical death. That is when our identification with the body doesn't remain valid anymore.
Now coming to the question of earthworms and egos etc, lets remember that according to Tattiriya upanishad, the human being is organized in five sheaths (kosha).
1. Annamaya Kosha : physical body
2. Pranamaya kosha : body of vital energy
3. manomaya kosha : body of mind
4: vjnanamaya kosha : body of higher knowledge
5: Anandamaya kosha : body of bliss
Minerals and crystals also show organized structure, but they possess the physical body only. Plants possess physical and vital (anna+prana) bodies. Plants don't have nervous system, so they don't have any mental or higher bodies. Animals possess physical, vital and mental (anna+prana+mana) bodies.
At the time of the death of a human, the physical body is the first to die. The vital (prana) and manomaya bodies may still linger for some time. Vital (pranamaya) body dies next as it cannot sustain itself due to lack of nourishment coming through physical body. Manaomaya (mental) body disintegrates next. This is the reason why people do not retain physical/vital traits or mental memories of past lives. But people with very strong vital or mental constitutions may retain some of that body before the rebirth and they may retain traits or memories of previous birth.
The most important lessons of a lifetime are kept in the karana-sharira which is made of the bodies higher than the mental. This karana-sharira is what transmigrates from birth to birth. In that sense that body is the 'soul' or 'Jiva'. This 'soul' or 'jiva' is individual, in the sense that it is separate for each person. But this'soul' or 'jiva' is a spark of the divine, and its seat in the body is supposed to be centered in the heart region. In the upanishads it is called the 'hiranmaya purusha' or tha 'angushtha-matra' purusha. Heart region consists of two major chakras. It is a dual chakra. The superficial chakra is the seat of 'emotion'. But much deeper is the real center of 'jiva' and 'soul'.
That 'soul' is much closer to the real unique self (Atma) of the universe.
All this may sound like much of mumbo-jumbo to many people. But what I have described is what many yogis say, including Sri Aurobindo.
A worm has physical+vital bodies mainly. Its nervous system is distributed without any strong center. So even though it may have a mental body, it is highly undeveloped. It is debatable whether a worm posseses the higher bodies, and if yes how developed they are.
For a human to be reborn as a worm, means a frightful descendence into the hell of ignorance. Into a level where the mental body is just a rudiment of what used to be and the 'soul' or 'jiva' or the karana-sharira is as good as non existent.
When a a plant is cut and replanted, it may grow as a separate plant. A worm when cut may survive as two separate worms. So it appears that at the level of physical (anna) and vital (prana), the beings are capable of dividing. All this can also be seen at the level of individual cells. Cells keep on proliferating, but would we say that each one of them need a separate 'soul'?
Physicists know that fundamental particles come in two flavours, bosons and fermions. Multiple bosons can occupy the same state, but no two fermions can be in the same state. An electron (a fermion) while interacting with photons that are bosons ( electromagnetic field), may emit of absorb a large number of such bosons. But the number of fermions is much more strictly preserved. A electron remains a single electron, while emitting and absorbing all those photons. Electron is much longer living although in a rare case of meeting an anti-electron/positron, it can be annihilated (there are other annihilation mechanisms for electrons too).
Life in general and cells in particular appear more boson like. The 'soul' or 'jiva' appears more fermion like. Bosons can live by themselves. But an electron (fermion) is always surrounded by a bosonic cloud. So purely physical/vital life forms are possible without a soul or central self/I/ego. Humans do appear to have that 'bosonic cloud' of living cells as their physical/vital (annamaya-pranamay and possibly manomaya) bodies. But inside they perhaps have something fermionic too. That fermionic part is like the 'soul' or karana-sharira in us. Fermions also get annihilated. In that sense, soul/karana-sharira is not the ultimate self. The only real self is the Atman of upanishda/vedanta. And that Atman is same as Brhaman or the universal self/reality.
Just a lot of my rambling thoughts ! <!--emo&
--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Please take the following with a pinch of salt.
The vedantic view, as I am sure you are aware of, is that there is a SINGLE SELF in the whole of universe. And that self is same as the all pervading Brahman, which can be described as sat-chit-ananda.
The problems come in the sense of separate 'I' that so many beings possess. This sense of separate 'I' or ego is not the true self, but a supposed self. At any given time we identify with so many different things. If someone abuses my county I feel hurt because I identify with my country. These identifications range from, body, mind, possessions, personality, family, nation, caste, species, and even preferred football teams! But none of these are necessary for the real self. Body can be cut part by part but still the sense of self remains. A person may go mad, so that his personality is shattered, but he still maintains a sense of self.
If someone pinches my finger I say 'I am hurt'. But if the same finger is cut off in an accident, my sense of 'I' doesn't go away with that finger. But at some point of bodily damage our identification with the body becomes implausible. That is the moment of physical death. That is when our identification with the body doesn't remain valid anymore.
Now coming to the question of earthworms and egos etc, lets remember that according to Tattiriya upanishad, the human being is organized in five sheaths (kosha).
1. Annamaya Kosha : physical body
2. Pranamaya kosha : body of vital energy
3. manomaya kosha : body of mind
4: vjnanamaya kosha : body of higher knowledge
5: Anandamaya kosha : body of bliss
Minerals and crystals also show organized structure, but they possess the physical body only. Plants possess physical and vital (anna+prana) bodies. Plants don't have nervous system, so they don't have any mental or higher bodies. Animals possess physical, vital and mental (anna+prana+mana) bodies.
At the time of the death of a human, the physical body is the first to die. The vital (prana) and manomaya bodies may still linger for some time. Vital (pranamaya) body dies next as it cannot sustain itself due to lack of nourishment coming through physical body. Manaomaya (mental) body disintegrates next. This is the reason why people do not retain physical/vital traits or mental memories of past lives. But people with very strong vital or mental constitutions may retain some of that body before the rebirth and they may retain traits or memories of previous birth.
The most important lessons of a lifetime are kept in the karana-sharira which is made of the bodies higher than the mental. This karana-sharira is what transmigrates from birth to birth. In that sense that body is the 'soul' or 'Jiva'. This 'soul' or 'jiva' is individual, in the sense that it is separate for each person. But this'soul' or 'jiva' is a spark of the divine, and its seat in the body is supposed to be centered in the heart region. In the upanishads it is called the 'hiranmaya purusha' or tha 'angushtha-matra' purusha. Heart region consists of two major chakras. It is a dual chakra. The superficial chakra is the seat of 'emotion'. But much deeper is the real center of 'jiva' and 'soul'.
That 'soul' is much closer to the real unique self (Atma) of the universe.
All this may sound like much of mumbo-jumbo to many people. But what I have described is what many yogis say, including Sri Aurobindo.
A worm has physical+vital bodies mainly. Its nervous system is distributed without any strong center. So even though it may have a mental body, it is highly undeveloped. It is debatable whether a worm posseses the higher bodies, and if yes how developed they are.
For a human to be reborn as a worm, means a frightful descendence into the hell of ignorance. Into a level where the mental body is just a rudiment of what used to be and the 'soul' or 'jiva' or the karana-sharira is as good as non existent.
When a a plant is cut and replanted, it may grow as a separate plant. A worm when cut may survive as two separate worms. So it appears that at the level of physical (anna) and vital (prana), the beings are capable of dividing. All this can also be seen at the level of individual cells. Cells keep on proliferating, but would we say that each one of them need a separate 'soul'?
Physicists know that fundamental particles come in two flavours, bosons and fermions. Multiple bosons can occupy the same state, but no two fermions can be in the same state. An electron (a fermion) while interacting with photons that are bosons ( electromagnetic field), may emit of absorb a large number of such bosons. But the number of fermions is much more strictly preserved. A electron remains a single electron, while emitting and absorbing all those photons. Electron is much longer living although in a rare case of meeting an anti-electron/positron, it can be annihilated (there are other annihilation mechanisms for electrons too).
Life in general and cells in particular appear more boson like. The 'soul' or 'jiva' appears more fermion like. Bosons can live by themselves. But an electron (fermion) is always surrounded by a bosonic cloud. So purely physical/vital life forms are possible without a soul or central self/I/ego. Humans do appear to have that 'bosonic cloud' of living cells as their physical/vital (annamaya-pranamay and possibly manomaya) bodies. But inside they perhaps have something fermionic too. That fermionic part is like the 'soul' or karana-sharira in us. Fermions also get annihilated. In that sense, soul/karana-sharira is not the ultimate self. The only real self is the Atman of upanishda/vedanta. And that Atman is same as Brhaman or the universal self/reality.
Just a lot of my rambling thoughts ! <!--emo&
--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->