12-13-2007, 06:27 PM
<!--QuoteBegin-Husky+Dec 13 2007, 02:25 PM-->QUOTE(Husky @ Dec 13 2007, 02:25 PM)<!--QuoteEBegin--> AND they go one step further, saying that Krishna is not Shiva, not Devi - that the latter are merely "demi" Gods; that they can not give Moksha. That Krishna is the ONLY God.
meanwhile, allah and jeebus make the grade for "the real thing" in their view <!--emo&:blink:--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/blink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='blink.gif' /><!--endemo-->
(Did ISKCON's guru Srila Prabhupada ever see Krishna during his life, I wonder though - did not come across it in the books of his that I have. But the proof is in the pudding isn't it? Others - even the "minor deity" worshippers who worship Mahavishnu along with the rest - <i>have</i> seen Krishna.)
Also, Rama and Mahavishnu in ISKCON's understanding is not the same as Krishna who they claim is the full version, the only one worth pursuing.
Even pure Vaishnavas (that is, of traditional Hindu background) do not say that jehovallah is the same as Krishna, even if they regard other central Hindu Gods as minor. And Vaishnavas have recognised Krishna is wholly the same as Rama/Mahavishnu. For some Rama takes more prominence in their personal lives than Krishna (but this is considered personal choice - a common thing in Hindu Dharma).
Before someone thinks I am knocking Krishna: *no* way.
I just can't warm to ISKCON anymore, it's totally alienated me. After ~2 years of being blindly infatuated with their books (this was only in my early teens - between my 10th and 12th year and only because I had been growing up overseas then) I decided it wasn't right for me and went back to the traditional view of Hinduism.
If others find meaning in ISKCON - good for them. But I will not accept any claims they make on "Shiva and Uma and Murughan and the rest are not equal to/same as Krishna". That is an opinion, not a fact in Hindu Dharma.
And I will never accept that "Krishna is jehovallah". He is not.
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Seem you see as traditional hinduism only advaita vedanta and smarta tradition.
Gaudya vaishnava is as traditional hinduism as any other branch of hinduism.Iskon is an adaptation for westerners.
Step by step
There can be more Brahmans(Absolutes)?Acording to vaishnava Brahman is personal-is a real person.This person is the origin of all the other persons;how to say?Krishna is Shiva but SHiva is not Krishna.
Demi-gods is a translation for westerners of the word devas.Krishna being the absolute is also all powerfull,and the other gods are as powerfull as Krishna want them to be.
Krishna is Vishnu ,in fact Krishna is the intimate aspect of Vishnu,or Vishnu is the oficial aspect of Krishna.
If each god is an Absolute-Brahman the are more Absolutes (which contradict the definition of the Absolute).
In fact advaita vedanta dont belive the same? I talk extensevly about Moksha whit a practicant brahmin from Himalaya.They say that personal gods are only empty shells ,that love for them exist only in this dual world.After obtaining moksha the god ar eevaporated in the impersonal Brahman.Love and relationship whit them is only temporary.They say that eternal relationship whit gods is a wrong thing(an ilusion)and can lead to moksha more by accident.
A fact for some,an opinion for others;but thats the hinduism-a place were even contradictory belive coexist in peace(contrary to other intolerant semitic religions).
Of course a Rama worshiper can see Krishna,Krishna is in Rama.Krishna is the super-soul.
Now the real problem-why Iskon member equate their Krishna person Absolute whit Yahve and Alah?(not all Iskon belive this as i heard Iskon members very critical toward these 2 religions,refuting Prabupadha opinions)
The answer is because of the IGNORANCE
Iskon see the conception of a personal Absolute in christianity and islam and imediatily equate whit their conceptions about God.
But let see the diferences
Most christians see God as trinity contrary to Iskon who see God as a infinity of persons
Muslims see God as being whitout form ,unlike Iskon who see God as having form(a favorite basic form and an infinity of other secundary forms).
Unlike thoose religion were God have a diferent essence from our essence,Iskon belive that we have the same essence whit God.
I think that is enough to show that Krishna concept is diferent then christian or islamic concepts.
Most of the Iskon members simply dont know christian or islamic theology ,they dont know bible or quran so they make this mistake.
ADD-Iskon belive that Krishna fullfil our wishess.If we worship Shiva we go to Shiva,if we worship Murugan we go to Murugan.If we wish the impersonal aspect of God ,we go there(see advaita).
Advaita-temporary personal relationship -eternal nonduality
Dvaita and co-temporary nonduality,eternal personal relatioship.
meanwhile, allah and jeebus make the grade for "the real thing" in their view <!--emo&:blink:--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/blink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='blink.gif' /><!--endemo-->
(Did ISKCON's guru Srila Prabhupada ever see Krishna during his life, I wonder though - did not come across it in the books of his that I have. But the proof is in the pudding isn't it? Others - even the "minor deity" worshippers who worship Mahavishnu along with the rest - <i>have</i> seen Krishna.)
Also, Rama and Mahavishnu in ISKCON's understanding is not the same as Krishna who they claim is the full version, the only one worth pursuing.
Even pure Vaishnavas (that is, of traditional Hindu background) do not say that jehovallah is the same as Krishna, even if they regard other central Hindu Gods as minor. And Vaishnavas have recognised Krishna is wholly the same as Rama/Mahavishnu. For some Rama takes more prominence in their personal lives than Krishna (but this is considered personal choice - a common thing in Hindu Dharma).
Before someone thinks I am knocking Krishna: *no* way.
I just can't warm to ISKCON anymore, it's totally alienated me. After ~2 years of being blindly infatuated with their books (this was only in my early teens - between my 10th and 12th year and only because I had been growing up overseas then) I decided it wasn't right for me and went back to the traditional view of Hinduism.
If others find meaning in ISKCON - good for them. But I will not accept any claims they make on "Shiva and Uma and Murughan and the rest are not equal to/same as Krishna". That is an opinion, not a fact in Hindu Dharma.
And I will never accept that "Krishna is jehovallah". He is not.
[right][snapback]76100[/snapback][/right]
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Seem you see as traditional hinduism only advaita vedanta and smarta tradition.
Gaudya vaishnava is as traditional hinduism as any other branch of hinduism.Iskon is an adaptation for westerners.
Step by step
There can be more Brahmans(Absolutes)?Acording to vaishnava Brahman is personal-is a real person.This person is the origin of all the other persons;how to say?Krishna is Shiva but SHiva is not Krishna.
Demi-gods is a translation for westerners of the word devas.Krishna being the absolute is also all powerfull,and the other gods are as powerfull as Krishna want them to be.
Krishna is Vishnu ,in fact Krishna is the intimate aspect of Vishnu,or Vishnu is the oficial aspect of Krishna.
If each god is an Absolute-Brahman the are more Absolutes (which contradict the definition of the Absolute).
In fact advaita vedanta dont belive the same? I talk extensevly about Moksha whit a practicant brahmin from Himalaya.They say that personal gods are only empty shells ,that love for them exist only in this dual world.After obtaining moksha the god ar eevaporated in the impersonal Brahman.Love and relationship whit them is only temporary.They say that eternal relationship whit gods is a wrong thing(an ilusion)and can lead to moksha more by accident.
A fact for some,an opinion for others;but thats the hinduism-a place were even contradictory belive coexist in peace(contrary to other intolerant semitic religions).
Of course a Rama worshiper can see Krishna,Krishna is in Rama.Krishna is the super-soul.
Now the real problem-why Iskon member equate their Krishna person Absolute whit Yahve and Alah?(not all Iskon belive this as i heard Iskon members very critical toward these 2 religions,refuting Prabupadha opinions)
The answer is because of the IGNORANCE
Iskon see the conception of a personal Absolute in christianity and islam and imediatily equate whit their conceptions about God.
But let see the diferences
Most christians see God as trinity contrary to Iskon who see God as a infinity of persons
Muslims see God as being whitout form ,unlike Iskon who see God as having form(a favorite basic form and an infinity of other secundary forms).
Unlike thoose religion were God have a diferent essence from our essence,Iskon belive that we have the same essence whit God.
I think that is enough to show that Krishna concept is diferent then christian or islamic concepts.
Most of the Iskon members simply dont know christian or islamic theology ,they dont know bible or quran so they make this mistake.
ADD-Iskon belive that Krishna fullfil our wishess.If we worship Shiva we go to Shiva,if we worship Murugan we go to Murugan.If we wish the impersonal aspect of God ,we go there(see advaita).
Advaita-temporary personal relationship -eternal nonduality
Dvaita and co-temporary nonduality,eternal personal relatioship.