01-25-2009, 01:59 AM
Pandyan, A request for you: If you don't have point by point rebuttal to any of the articles, just say so, and not trash some else's sincere effort in presenting their views/opinions. Thanks
Moving on....
I thought hora for short for aHORAthri - half a division of a sign. Who knew it was greek. Well, you learn something new every day <!--emo&
--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->.
I further thought, there are various divisions of sign and rest of them all have home grown names and soundings, including the first one - rasi. Besides, vargas are just a way of loking at the horoscope. Nothing more nothing less.
Anyways, reading some on this thread kicked off lot of questions and doubts in my head for the experts, linguists & astrology historians such as Elst. I'd appreciate if anyone can throw some light on these....
How many Sanskrit words are in Greek Astrological/astronomical literature? From what I am reading here, it appears there is none in greek literature, so it must logically follow that hindus borrowed not just the words, but the entire concepts, even when we had our own concepts of finer divisions navamshas etc. Much like Witzel argues.
Just because there are some greekish (2 or even 20) words, does it mean ancient Hindus were just incapable of "Observing and Predicting" process which is the fundamental basis of astrology? They showed such methodology in other sciences, didn't they?
Why couldn't the whole astrology field as it existed then - be it Indian or greek, have evolved over time independently and simultanesouly, perhaps each one borrowing from the other? Does yavana mean greek or anyone outside India? Before greeks, weren't persians called yavanas?
Why is it being assumed that "predictive astrology" - lock, stock and barrel, must be in vedas to be vedic or hindu? You cannot possibly find everything in Vedas. Like everything it must evolve, but inline with principles enunciated in vedas. One turns to vedas for something else, but definitely not to find material for predictive astrology. <!--emo&--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo--> Even then, there are some passages in Atharva veda, I believe, that have predictive portions. (I will find them, when time permits)
What does astrology historian Elst think about theory of Greeks getting astrology from Mesopotamia?
How many of the experts and astrology historians are practising astrologers, who have read all the well known treatises (of India I might add) of astrology and siddhantas (of India) and follow systematic methodology of observing and predicting & learning?
Also examples here are abound of very bad astrologers and their predictions, that is astrology's fault how?
HH, I have only translations of the Yavanajataka, and most likely not the entire works. What in Yavanajataka points to yavanacharya being a greek OR he copying from greeks OR what is the clinching evidence in this work that shows hindus were majorly influenced by greeks? What are your thoughts about various rishi horas such as "Skanda Hora" and also yavaneshwara hora? Also, what is your take on Nigama and Agama ways of astrology? I believe they were before Alexander came to India, am I mistaken? How much did yavaneshwara take from Indian side and contribute to nabhasa yogas of astrology? Yavanashwara claims all his astrological knowledge came from Brahma (prajapathi) - (I will find the source for this later on, when time permits) and if this is true, who really copied from whom? or did anyone copy at all? Or all these just various schools of thought and applications of fundamental principles in practise by different schools?
Moving on....
I thought hora for short for aHORAthri - half a division of a sign. Who knew it was greek. Well, you learn something new every day <!--emo&
--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->.I further thought, there are various divisions of sign and rest of them all have home grown names and soundings, including the first one - rasi. Besides, vargas are just a way of loking at the horoscope. Nothing more nothing less.
Anyways, reading some on this thread kicked off lot of questions and doubts in my head for the experts, linguists & astrology historians such as Elst. I'd appreciate if anyone can throw some light on these....
How many Sanskrit words are in Greek Astrological/astronomical literature? From what I am reading here, it appears there is none in greek literature, so it must logically follow that hindus borrowed not just the words, but the entire concepts, even when we had our own concepts of finer divisions navamshas etc. Much like Witzel argues.
Just because there are some greekish (2 or even 20) words, does it mean ancient Hindus were just incapable of "Observing and Predicting" process which is the fundamental basis of astrology? They showed such methodology in other sciences, didn't they?
Why couldn't the whole astrology field as it existed then - be it Indian or greek, have evolved over time independently and simultanesouly, perhaps each one borrowing from the other? Does yavana mean greek or anyone outside India? Before greeks, weren't persians called yavanas?
Why is it being assumed that "predictive astrology" - lock, stock and barrel, must be in vedas to be vedic or hindu? You cannot possibly find everything in Vedas. Like everything it must evolve, but inline with principles enunciated in vedas. One turns to vedas for something else, but definitely not to find material for predictive astrology. <!--emo&
--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo--> Even then, there are some passages in Atharva veda, I believe, that have predictive portions. (I will find them, when time permits)What does astrology historian Elst think about theory of Greeks getting astrology from Mesopotamia?
How many of the experts and astrology historians are practising astrologers, who have read all the well known treatises (of India I might add) of astrology and siddhantas (of India) and follow systematic methodology of observing and predicting & learning?
Also examples here are abound of very bad astrologers and their predictions, that is astrology's fault how?
HH, I have only translations of the Yavanajataka, and most likely not the entire works. What in Yavanajataka points to yavanacharya being a greek OR he copying from greeks OR what is the clinching evidence in this work that shows hindus were majorly influenced by greeks? What are your thoughts about various rishi horas such as "Skanda Hora" and also yavaneshwara hora? Also, what is your take on Nigama and Agama ways of astrology? I believe they were before Alexander came to India, am I mistaken? How much did yavaneshwara take from Indian side and contribute to nabhasa yogas of astrology? Yavanashwara claims all his astrological knowledge came from Brahma (prajapathi) - (I will find the source for this later on, when time permits) and if this is true, who really copied from whom? or did anyone copy at all? Or all these just various schools of thought and applications of fundamental principles in practise by different schools?