03-09-2005, 03:46 AM
Rudradev's insightful take on this!
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->KGoan,
If I've somehow created the impression that I'm some sort of "expert" on the Mahabharat, let me be the first to dispel it... my experience of it is limited to Rajaji's excellent but certainly abridged translation. I'm not in the same class with Gudakesa, Parsuram or Hauma Hamiddha (I wonder what he would have made of all this?) in my understanding of it. At any rate, my criticism of the discussion is not that it is "shallow"-- I am no scholar to level such a judgement-- rather, it is of the haste to rush to conclusions that seems a distinct possibility if we aren't careful.
I couldn't agree more with your idea that all Indians have a civilizational memory of the two epics. I will go a step further and say that much of Indian history has been influenced by the effect of that civilizational memory on the movers and shakers of various times. Mahavir didn't evolve his philosophies in a vacuum. While Ashoka the Great was undoubtedly a Buddhist, it is impossible to believe that he wasn't intimately familiar with, and hence fundamentally influenced by these epics in his actions and policies. Prithviraj Chauhan was certainly following a code outlined in these epics when he repeatedly declined to send Muhammad Ghauri's head home on a pike, as was Shivaji, magnanimous in victory centuries later. Every ruler of any stature, upto and including Pandit Nehru, has been influenced by the Ramayan and Mahabharat in their practice of statecraft... and influenced in a direction entirely dependent on his or her interpretation of them.
There's the rub, for the Mahabharat isn't a revealed Judeo-Christian-type tract written for the benefit of naked and howling tribesmen, with absolute tenets to be followed on pain of death (and eternal damnation thereafter). IMHO, the Mahabharat is (among other things) the best novel ever written... an unparalleled exposition of universal truths about human nature and the human condition in the context of contemporary history, a feat that every great novelist from Tagore to Hemingway to Greene would have given his right arm to match. As only the greatest novels do it explores the workings of men's minds and lays forth its findings without passing judgement, scrutinizes its subjects deeply while maintaining detachment. And, like the very greatest of novels it is completely open to an infinite number of interpretations.
When Rajaji set to the task of abridging the Mahabharat into a hundred-and-odd pages of English text, he probably was well aware of the gravity of his mission. He was bringing the Mahabharat to generations of newly independent Indians, propogating the civilizational memory that guided our forefathers in a context that educated, English-speaking middle-class Indians, those whom he foresaw would be the leaders of India in decades to come, could access and understand.
My feeling is that the thrust of our current discussion has been trying to analyze Mleccha doings in terms of our epics, attempting to ascribe the motivations of a Yudhishtira or Dronacharya or Shakuni to such J-C barbarians as the Western Bloc (or their b@st@rd children the Islamists). While this is no doubt possible-- the truths of the Mahabharat are universal-- it might be more worth our while to analyze the impact of these epics on US. Explore how interpretations of the Mahabharat prevailing at various times in our history have affected the very course of that history, sometimes for the better and sometimes for the worse, with a dispassion worthy of Ved Vyas himself. Extrapolate from that how the Mahabharat could be best interpreted in the present context, what lessons of statecraft could be best derived from it to shape our policies today and our destiny tomorrow.
For the day Indic civilization marshals its true strengths, frees itself from the institutionalized contempt that generations of Brown Sahebs and JNU Jholawalas were brainwashed to pour on our civilizational memories, the day we get our act together is the day that the West has dreaded for ages. Yes, of COURSE they prefer an Islamicized Pakistan, a Talibanized Gandhara... the Islamists are their own b@st@rd children and are easy to predict, deal with and understand. We, on the other hand, have by virtue of our civilizational memories the capacity to transcend their grasp and overpower them.
One need look no further than the Chinese for evidence. The ethos of authoritarianism and discipline that was primarily responsible for bringing astounding economic success to such nations as Taiwan, Singapore and South Korea is very firmly rooted in civilizational memories of Confucianism. The very same indigenous philosophies, interpreted differently at other times in their history, made China a nation of opium addicts to be exploited by the West and left them vulnerable to colonialist Japanese and Mongol depradations for centuries. The successes of the Asian Tiger economies, as opposed to the PRC upto 1990, were smugly ascribed by Western luminaries to the fact that they enjoyed free-market capitalism and non-communist (if not exactly democratic) regimes. When the PRC began its stupendous economic ascendance, those Western luminaries predicted that it would not last, that authoritarianism and the denial of democracy could not square with the prosperity that such economic success was sure to bring.
For my money, they are wrong. It is China's civilizational memories, which having survived active attempts to stamp them out entirely during the cultural revolution, shall prove the source of her continued strength. From the Western pulpit of Jeffersonian ethics, individual liberty, free enterprise and democracy, it may appear that China's authoritarianism and prosperity do not mix, that they are bound eventually to lead to a catastrophic and destructive denouement. I have full faith that the civilizational memories of the Chinese will enable them to resolve any apparent contradictions successfully, one way or another. Those in the West who see and understand this are fundamentally terrified, because it would mean that the ideals which they hold dear are not the only recipe for civilizational success, that they aren't the keepers of the only meme that will win out in the end! Somewhere deep down they know that this is true of Indic civilization as well. They will do everything in their power to prevent us from actualizing our own.
So maybe it's time to understand what these epics are really all about, and in the process, we should be unafraid to smash a few icons that have been imposed upon us in an attempt to suppress our analysis of them. Rather than lament the fact that the Indian people seem overjoyed to elect a dynasty of Gandhi-Nehrus, maybe we should attempt to further our own understanding of why this is so... and question whether it behooves us to ride the Western high horse of "democracy" while expressing contempt for our own electorate and its civilizational instincts.
But I get ahead of myself. For the moment, I could not agree more with something Sunil indicated early on in this thread. What Rajaji gave to us, and our parents, with his Mahabharat-- we should attempt to pass on to the DCH generation, because from among them will arise the rulers of India tomorrow. While no generation of Indians in history has been as privileged and empowered as the DCH, no generation has been as susceptible to civilizationally degrading propaganda either.
So I'm going to go back into lurk mode now, and having contributed my 2 N.P., watch the continuation of the Mahabharat discussion with great interest. My humble suggestion is that it would merit a thread of its own.
Going back to the original topic, though, I did have some thoughts about Wargaming and Wargame design that I will try to write up and post here when I get a second. Thanks.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->KGoan,
If I've somehow created the impression that I'm some sort of "expert" on the Mahabharat, let me be the first to dispel it... my experience of it is limited to Rajaji's excellent but certainly abridged translation. I'm not in the same class with Gudakesa, Parsuram or Hauma Hamiddha (I wonder what he would have made of all this?) in my understanding of it. At any rate, my criticism of the discussion is not that it is "shallow"-- I am no scholar to level such a judgement-- rather, it is of the haste to rush to conclusions that seems a distinct possibility if we aren't careful.
I couldn't agree more with your idea that all Indians have a civilizational memory of the two epics. I will go a step further and say that much of Indian history has been influenced by the effect of that civilizational memory on the movers and shakers of various times. Mahavir didn't evolve his philosophies in a vacuum. While Ashoka the Great was undoubtedly a Buddhist, it is impossible to believe that he wasn't intimately familiar with, and hence fundamentally influenced by these epics in his actions and policies. Prithviraj Chauhan was certainly following a code outlined in these epics when he repeatedly declined to send Muhammad Ghauri's head home on a pike, as was Shivaji, magnanimous in victory centuries later. Every ruler of any stature, upto and including Pandit Nehru, has been influenced by the Ramayan and Mahabharat in their practice of statecraft... and influenced in a direction entirely dependent on his or her interpretation of them.
There's the rub, for the Mahabharat isn't a revealed Judeo-Christian-type tract written for the benefit of naked and howling tribesmen, with absolute tenets to be followed on pain of death (and eternal damnation thereafter). IMHO, the Mahabharat is (among other things) the best novel ever written... an unparalleled exposition of universal truths about human nature and the human condition in the context of contemporary history, a feat that every great novelist from Tagore to Hemingway to Greene would have given his right arm to match. As only the greatest novels do it explores the workings of men's minds and lays forth its findings without passing judgement, scrutinizes its subjects deeply while maintaining detachment. And, like the very greatest of novels it is completely open to an infinite number of interpretations.
When Rajaji set to the task of abridging the Mahabharat into a hundred-and-odd pages of English text, he probably was well aware of the gravity of his mission. He was bringing the Mahabharat to generations of newly independent Indians, propogating the civilizational memory that guided our forefathers in a context that educated, English-speaking middle-class Indians, those whom he foresaw would be the leaders of India in decades to come, could access and understand.
My feeling is that the thrust of our current discussion has been trying to analyze Mleccha doings in terms of our epics, attempting to ascribe the motivations of a Yudhishtira or Dronacharya or Shakuni to such J-C barbarians as the Western Bloc (or their b@st@rd children the Islamists). While this is no doubt possible-- the truths of the Mahabharat are universal-- it might be more worth our while to analyze the impact of these epics on US. Explore how interpretations of the Mahabharat prevailing at various times in our history have affected the very course of that history, sometimes for the better and sometimes for the worse, with a dispassion worthy of Ved Vyas himself. Extrapolate from that how the Mahabharat could be best interpreted in the present context, what lessons of statecraft could be best derived from it to shape our policies today and our destiny tomorrow.
For the day Indic civilization marshals its true strengths, frees itself from the institutionalized contempt that generations of Brown Sahebs and JNU Jholawalas were brainwashed to pour on our civilizational memories, the day we get our act together is the day that the West has dreaded for ages. Yes, of COURSE they prefer an Islamicized Pakistan, a Talibanized Gandhara... the Islamists are their own b@st@rd children and are easy to predict, deal with and understand. We, on the other hand, have by virtue of our civilizational memories the capacity to transcend their grasp and overpower them.
One need look no further than the Chinese for evidence. The ethos of authoritarianism and discipline that was primarily responsible for bringing astounding economic success to such nations as Taiwan, Singapore and South Korea is very firmly rooted in civilizational memories of Confucianism. The very same indigenous philosophies, interpreted differently at other times in their history, made China a nation of opium addicts to be exploited by the West and left them vulnerable to colonialist Japanese and Mongol depradations for centuries. The successes of the Asian Tiger economies, as opposed to the PRC upto 1990, were smugly ascribed by Western luminaries to the fact that they enjoyed free-market capitalism and non-communist (if not exactly democratic) regimes. When the PRC began its stupendous economic ascendance, those Western luminaries predicted that it would not last, that authoritarianism and the denial of democracy could not square with the prosperity that such economic success was sure to bring.
For my money, they are wrong. It is China's civilizational memories, which having survived active attempts to stamp them out entirely during the cultural revolution, shall prove the source of her continued strength. From the Western pulpit of Jeffersonian ethics, individual liberty, free enterprise and democracy, it may appear that China's authoritarianism and prosperity do not mix, that they are bound eventually to lead to a catastrophic and destructive denouement. I have full faith that the civilizational memories of the Chinese will enable them to resolve any apparent contradictions successfully, one way or another. Those in the West who see and understand this are fundamentally terrified, because it would mean that the ideals which they hold dear are not the only recipe for civilizational success, that they aren't the keepers of the only meme that will win out in the end! Somewhere deep down they know that this is true of Indic civilization as well. They will do everything in their power to prevent us from actualizing our own.
So maybe it's time to understand what these epics are really all about, and in the process, we should be unafraid to smash a few icons that have been imposed upon us in an attempt to suppress our analysis of them. Rather than lament the fact that the Indian people seem overjoyed to elect a dynasty of Gandhi-Nehrus, maybe we should attempt to further our own understanding of why this is so... and question whether it behooves us to ride the Western high horse of "democracy" while expressing contempt for our own electorate and its civilizational instincts.
But I get ahead of myself. For the moment, I could not agree more with something Sunil indicated early on in this thread. What Rajaji gave to us, and our parents, with his Mahabharat-- we should attempt to pass on to the DCH generation, because from among them will arise the rulers of India tomorrow. While no generation of Indians in history has been as privileged and empowered as the DCH, no generation has been as susceptible to civilizationally degrading propaganda either.
So I'm going to go back into lurk mode now, and having contributed my 2 N.P., watch the continuation of the Mahabharat discussion with great interest. My humble suggestion is that it would merit a thread of its own.
Going back to the original topic, though, I did have some thoughts about Wargaming and Wargame design that I will try to write up and post here when I get a second. Thanks.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->