04-18-2005, 07:47 PM
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Selective anecdotes? Indian govt statistics on caste crimes, their discussions in parliament, further laws, discussions in conferences and seminars participated by govt ministers, as well as UN conferences and social indices speaks enough, donât you think. Those stats were published by the NDA govt!!<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Pathmarajah, do you know what âanecdoteâ means? I was referring to your constant, tiresome tendency to use personal experiences, stories and narratives (in your previous message, you quoted one Sugrutha, whose family âstoryâ obviously struck your fancy only because it attacks a community that you are hostile to). Anecdotes, I repeat, donât strengthen oneâs argument or prove anything, they simply colour up oneâs writing! For every story you relate about your personal experience, or someone elseâs experience, about a certain caste, I have several stories which are contrary experiences. So, what exactly are you trying to prove with these fictional narratives?
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin--> Colored perspective on social reality? You are a social scientist - but have you covered India? Have you studied Indians laws that outlawed caste, and why such laws are necessary in India but not in most other nations. Give me an example of such laws, say, in UK, Thailand, Kenya.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Precisely because I have covered India and done plenty of cross-national comparative research, I can tell you that most countries have to deal with hate crimes or bias motivated crime, based on race, ethnicity, religion, gender, sexual orientation, etc (take your pick of the category). Each country has its own bias issue to deal with.
However not all governments, despite crimes against certain goups, have passed legislations to protect these groups, because they may not necessarily consider such crimes as political, economical and social priority. For example, despite high statistics on hate crimes stemming from prejudices against gender and now increasingly sexual orientation, many US state governments have still yet to acknowledged these groups as needing special protection, or that these hate crimes as more serious than say drug offence, rape, prostitution, or paedophilia, even if the statistics show that hate crimes involving these groups are relatively high or increasing.
At the other extreme is India, where the enactment of legislation is politicized heavily, and the group with a strong political muscle power is usually able to get its own agenda pushed, irrespective of whether or not the community it represents truly requires special protection or immunity. This explains why some of the most privileged âminorityâ groups, such as Christians and Muslims, enjoy better social, economic, and legal protection than do Hindus in India.
To establish whether or not a crime is bias motivated requires thorough investigation of the crime by the law enforcement. A crime cannot be declared as bias motivated merely because the victim thinks so, or because the victim happens to belongs to a minority, underprivileged community, and the accused happens to belong to the majority, or privileged community (assuming that the alleged accuserâs background is known - very often the social background of the alleged offender is unknown). To illustrate the complexity in identifying a âhateâ crime, the Australian government report on crime states:
<i>âScholarly writings from other countries tend to suggest the existence of
discrimination and violence against ethnic, foreign, or minority groups but
provide almost no supporting evidence. The British Crime Survey, on the other
hand, asks victims whether an incident was âracially motivatedâ or whether
âthey thought they were victimised âfor reasons of race or colourâ. The
responses to these questions reflect only the perceptions of victims, and it is
possible that in many cases the victim may not be aware of the real motivations
of the offender. The 1996 British Crime Survey (BCS) found that Pakistanis
and Bangladeshis compared to Indians and blacks saw a higher proportion of
vandalism, threats, and violence as racially motivated. 70 per cent of threats
and 29 per cent of violence were perceived as racially motivated by the
Pakistanis and Bangladeshis, the proportions for Indians and blacks were less
than half as much. In terms of prevalence of racially motivated crime, about 8
per cent of Pakistanis and Bangladeshis, 5 per cent of Indians, and 4 per cent of
blacks experienced one or more victimisations during 1995.88 However, the
Survey notes that: It is possible that the BCS measure of racist threats is more susceptible to changes in public perceptions than estimates of either racist violence or vandalism. In many incidents of threat, the racist element may be implicit and its perception more dependent on underlying attitudes of the victim. As a result, trends in public attitudes may have more effect on the number of racist threats recorded by the BCS than on either on racist violence or vandalism, where the racist element may be more explicit.â</i>
The above suggests that, simply based on the personal opinion or perception of the victim, neighbour, or the community, it is difficult to ascertain whether or not a crime is truly bias motivated. A proper investigation, such previous history of harassment, taunts, direct threats, etc, are required in order to establish whether the crime was indeed bias motivated and the victim targeted because of his race/sex/ethnicity/religion/sexual orientation background. This is the most challenging task for the police in any country.
The police even in developed countries express helplessness at their inability to correctly identify a crime as bias motivated. So one can imagine the limitations of the police in developing countries such as India, given their lack of resources and training to investigate every crime and ascertain whether or not it is bias motivated. Figures by themselves do not tell all, and most of the time, advocacy groups tend to deliberately read too much into the data .
As for your suggestion that the issue of dalit âhateâ crimes are addressed in international platforms, I can assure you that crimes against women and children, HIV, drugs, etc in developing countries and developed countries are of greater concern for social scientists and policy makers worldwide, than the dalit issue, despite whatever hue and cry you, or any dalitstan advocacy group, might make about the dalit plight.
It is not surprising that advocacy groups tend to make noise about a community that they politically represent, irrespective of whether or not the issue that they raise can be construed genuinely as a social problem. Thus, none too surprisingly, there has been tremendous hue and cry by right-wing Christian groups and churches about incresaing âhateâ crimes against the christian community in non-christian countries, using flimsy data to support their claims, in international platforms, especially when they found themselves facing strong resistance against religious conversions in these societies. Similarly, Muslim advocate groups staunchly insist in international platforms that they are deeply "persecuted" in many non-muslim societies by non-muslims, again using flimsy âdataâ to support their accusations of discriminations. They are even groups representing people with tattoos that claim wide-spread discrimination against them, demanding legislations to help them. Just take a pick of your advocacy group, and youâll find them trying to draw international attention and seeking support for their cause, using flimsy data. Itâs a pity that the dalit âplightâ is raked up whenever the western Christian churches and evangelical missions want to increase their power base in India, or whenever an anti-India and anti-Hindu group (or individuals) wants to launch an offence against India or attract cheap international publicity for itself.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->I am Malaysian and have never been to Sri Lanka.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Pathmarajah, curious about one thing, though. Why are you, a Malaysian, concerned about social problems in India? Should you not be concerned about social divisions and discriminations agaisnt persons of Indian ethnicity in Malaysia? I have been to Malaysia several times, and have had students of Indian origin from your country, and oh Boy (!), is there a strong ethnic prejudice in Malaysia or what! Persons of Indian origin, especially if they are dark-skinned, are discriminated by the Malays and the Chinese ethnic community. While the Malays hold political power and the Chinese the economic power in Malaysia, people of Indian ancestry are economically, politically, and socially marginalized.
Nothing was more sadder than a Malaysian-Indian, studying in the US, confessing that he wanted to stay back in the US after completing his studies because he felt he stood a better chance at getting a proper job, professional advancement opportunities, job recognition, and social status and respect as an Indian in the US than in Malaysia, where those of Indian ancestry are unfortunately still looked down upon by the Malays and Chinese. Is it possible that because of your sense of helplessness and powerlessness to change the Malaysian society and its prejudices against persons of Indian ancestry that you take undue interest in social issues in other societies? Is it possible that you are trying to increase your sense of self-esteem and self-worth as a Malaysian Indian by attempting to forge "solidarity" with the Indian dalits.
Well, Pathmarajah, should you be not trying to improve the social, economic, and political conditions and plight of the Indian ethnic group in Malaysia, instead of debating the dalit issue in India? You have your work cut out for you, so begin at once!
As for India, leave her social problems to the Indians. The Indians will work out their problems for themselves just fine, without interference from other nationalities who are simply interested in wreaking social havoc or fostering social divisions in India for their own political and ego reasons. This forum I understand is for the Indians interested in improving their society, so it may be better for you to join a Malaysian forum or a dalitstan forum, where you can vent your social frustrations to your hearts content and propound your weird theories of dalit supremacy and African invasion of India.
Pathmarajah, do you know what âanecdoteâ means? I was referring to your constant, tiresome tendency to use personal experiences, stories and narratives (in your previous message, you quoted one Sugrutha, whose family âstoryâ obviously struck your fancy only because it attacks a community that you are hostile to). Anecdotes, I repeat, donât strengthen oneâs argument or prove anything, they simply colour up oneâs writing! For every story you relate about your personal experience, or someone elseâs experience, about a certain caste, I have several stories which are contrary experiences. So, what exactly are you trying to prove with these fictional narratives?
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin--> Colored perspective on social reality? You are a social scientist - but have you covered India? Have you studied Indians laws that outlawed caste, and why such laws are necessary in India but not in most other nations. Give me an example of such laws, say, in UK, Thailand, Kenya.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Precisely because I have covered India and done plenty of cross-national comparative research, I can tell you that most countries have to deal with hate crimes or bias motivated crime, based on race, ethnicity, religion, gender, sexual orientation, etc (take your pick of the category). Each country has its own bias issue to deal with.
However not all governments, despite crimes against certain goups, have passed legislations to protect these groups, because they may not necessarily consider such crimes as political, economical and social priority. For example, despite high statistics on hate crimes stemming from prejudices against gender and now increasingly sexual orientation, many US state governments have still yet to acknowledged these groups as needing special protection, or that these hate crimes as more serious than say drug offence, rape, prostitution, or paedophilia, even if the statistics show that hate crimes involving these groups are relatively high or increasing.
At the other extreme is India, where the enactment of legislation is politicized heavily, and the group with a strong political muscle power is usually able to get its own agenda pushed, irrespective of whether or not the community it represents truly requires special protection or immunity. This explains why some of the most privileged âminorityâ groups, such as Christians and Muslims, enjoy better social, economic, and legal protection than do Hindus in India.
To establish whether or not a crime is bias motivated requires thorough investigation of the crime by the law enforcement. A crime cannot be declared as bias motivated merely because the victim thinks so, or because the victim happens to belongs to a minority, underprivileged community, and the accused happens to belong to the majority, or privileged community (assuming that the alleged accuserâs background is known - very often the social background of the alleged offender is unknown). To illustrate the complexity in identifying a âhateâ crime, the Australian government report on crime states:
<i>âScholarly writings from other countries tend to suggest the existence of
discrimination and violence against ethnic, foreign, or minority groups but
provide almost no supporting evidence. The British Crime Survey, on the other
hand, asks victims whether an incident was âracially motivatedâ or whether
âthey thought they were victimised âfor reasons of race or colourâ. The
responses to these questions reflect only the perceptions of victims, and it is
possible that in many cases the victim may not be aware of the real motivations
of the offender. The 1996 British Crime Survey (BCS) found that Pakistanis
and Bangladeshis compared to Indians and blacks saw a higher proportion of
vandalism, threats, and violence as racially motivated. 70 per cent of threats
and 29 per cent of violence were perceived as racially motivated by the
Pakistanis and Bangladeshis, the proportions for Indians and blacks were less
than half as much. In terms of prevalence of racially motivated crime, about 8
per cent of Pakistanis and Bangladeshis, 5 per cent of Indians, and 4 per cent of
blacks experienced one or more victimisations during 1995.88 However, the
Survey notes that: It is possible that the BCS measure of racist threats is more susceptible to changes in public perceptions than estimates of either racist violence or vandalism. In many incidents of threat, the racist element may be implicit and its perception more dependent on underlying attitudes of the victim. As a result, trends in public attitudes may have more effect on the number of racist threats recorded by the BCS than on either on racist violence or vandalism, where the racist element may be more explicit.â</i>
The above suggests that, simply based on the personal opinion or perception of the victim, neighbour, or the community, it is difficult to ascertain whether or not a crime is truly bias motivated. A proper investigation, such previous history of harassment, taunts, direct threats, etc, are required in order to establish whether the crime was indeed bias motivated and the victim targeted because of his race/sex/ethnicity/religion/sexual orientation background. This is the most challenging task for the police in any country.
The police even in developed countries express helplessness at their inability to correctly identify a crime as bias motivated. So one can imagine the limitations of the police in developing countries such as India, given their lack of resources and training to investigate every crime and ascertain whether or not it is bias motivated. Figures by themselves do not tell all, and most of the time, advocacy groups tend to deliberately read too much into the data .
As for your suggestion that the issue of dalit âhateâ crimes are addressed in international platforms, I can assure you that crimes against women and children, HIV, drugs, etc in developing countries and developed countries are of greater concern for social scientists and policy makers worldwide, than the dalit issue, despite whatever hue and cry you, or any dalitstan advocacy group, might make about the dalit plight.
It is not surprising that advocacy groups tend to make noise about a community that they politically represent, irrespective of whether or not the issue that they raise can be construed genuinely as a social problem. Thus, none too surprisingly, there has been tremendous hue and cry by right-wing Christian groups and churches about incresaing âhateâ crimes against the christian community in non-christian countries, using flimsy data to support their claims, in international platforms, especially when they found themselves facing strong resistance against religious conversions in these societies. Similarly, Muslim advocate groups staunchly insist in international platforms that they are deeply "persecuted" in many non-muslim societies by non-muslims, again using flimsy âdataâ to support their accusations of discriminations. They are even groups representing people with tattoos that claim wide-spread discrimination against them, demanding legislations to help them. Just take a pick of your advocacy group, and youâll find them trying to draw international attention and seeking support for their cause, using flimsy data. Itâs a pity that the dalit âplightâ is raked up whenever the western Christian churches and evangelical missions want to increase their power base in India, or whenever an anti-India and anti-Hindu group (or individuals) wants to launch an offence against India or attract cheap international publicity for itself.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->I am Malaysian and have never been to Sri Lanka.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Pathmarajah, curious about one thing, though. Why are you, a Malaysian, concerned about social problems in India? Should you not be concerned about social divisions and discriminations agaisnt persons of Indian ethnicity in Malaysia? I have been to Malaysia several times, and have had students of Indian origin from your country, and oh Boy (!), is there a strong ethnic prejudice in Malaysia or what! Persons of Indian origin, especially if they are dark-skinned, are discriminated by the Malays and the Chinese ethnic community. While the Malays hold political power and the Chinese the economic power in Malaysia, people of Indian ancestry are economically, politically, and socially marginalized.
Nothing was more sadder than a Malaysian-Indian, studying in the US, confessing that he wanted to stay back in the US after completing his studies because he felt he stood a better chance at getting a proper job, professional advancement opportunities, job recognition, and social status and respect as an Indian in the US than in Malaysia, where those of Indian ancestry are unfortunately still looked down upon by the Malays and Chinese. Is it possible that because of your sense of helplessness and powerlessness to change the Malaysian society and its prejudices against persons of Indian ancestry that you take undue interest in social issues in other societies? Is it possible that you are trying to increase your sense of self-esteem and self-worth as a Malaysian Indian by attempting to forge "solidarity" with the Indian dalits.
Well, Pathmarajah, should you be not trying to improve the social, economic, and political conditions and plight of the Indian ethnic group in Malaysia, instead of debating the dalit issue in India? You have your work cut out for you, so begin at once!
As for India, leave her social problems to the Indians. The Indians will work out their problems for themselves just fine, without interference from other nationalities who are simply interested in wreaking social havoc or fostering social divisions in India for their own political and ego reasons. This forum I understand is for the Indians interested in improving their society, so it may be better for you to join a Malaysian forum or a dalitstan forum, where you can vent your social frustrations to your hearts content and propound your weird theories of dalit supremacy and African invasion of India.