Pakistan News And Discussion-14

Naresh · 11-20-2007, 02:25 PM

[center]Pakistan put in its real place <img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/Flush.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='Flush.gif' />[/center]

Cheers <img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/cheers.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='cheers.gif' />

11-21-2007, 12:22 AM

QUOTEOn the military front, Kiani is considered more pro-American than Musharraf, but while Washington analyzes him as an excellent soldier who performs under a good commander, he is not considered a very astute planner capable of taking independent military decisions that could have political repercussions.

Kiani, a former head of the powerful Inter-Service Intelligence (ISI), is expected to take over leadership of the army when Musharraf finally quits that post. He is not considered to have performed particularly well at the politically-charged ISI, and during the crisis at the radical Lal Masjid (Red Mosque) in Islamabad this year, the operation to storm the mosque was commanded by the 10th corps of the Pakistani army and its intelligence units, and not by paramilitary forces and the ISI.

I think media is still protecting Mushy or paid by Mushy to protect him.
Mushy is very smart no doubt, one way he is good for India, that he destroying foundation of Pakistan or otherside, he is creating monster called Pakistan full of fundoos who are happy to kill anyone.

11-21-2007, 12:46 AM

QUOTEPioeer, 20 Nov., 2007
Break the military cycle 
N Jamal Ansari explains why Pakistan can never be stable
After the concluding remarks of Kanchan Gupta, "If the US is hated in Pakistan today, the reasons are not unknown to those who are now chanting the democracy mantra in Washington" ("Blame America, not Musharraf," Coffee Break, November 11), the subject does not demand another article. But the basic question is: Why did Pakistan fail? For an answer, we should understand the social and political system of that country.

Pakistan came into existence as a result of the withdrawal of the British rulers from the Indian subcontinent in 1947 and its division into two dominions -- India and Pakistan. Thus the two nations inherited a political structure that was essentially British. But there was a difference between the political parties who dominated them. India was handed over to the Indian National Congress, which had an ideology. The secular and forward-looking ideology had evolved as a result of decades of anti-colonialism struggle. Whereas Pakistan was gifted to the Muslim League which had no such ideology except catchy slogans for mobilising Muslims.

Soon after independence, the Congress gave a new shape to the Indian state by adopting a new Constitution which assured the dignity of the individual as well as the unity of the nation. The ground realities in Pakistan were different. The Muslim League had no base in many areas which constituted Pakistan. It is noteworthy that the elite there had opposed the movement for a separate state. The League had a negligible base in the NWFP and Baluchistan. In Sind and Punjab, it succeeded in making some inroads much later.

After Pakistan got its independence, its feudal lords emerged as the most dominant class. A very small capitalist class also emerged, consisting of migrants from India. These traders greatly profited by the boom created by the Korean War in the 1950s. Pakistan's bureaucracy also helped in the transformation of trading capital into industrial capital. But the landlords failed to become industrialists because they did not have the necessary will or resources. 

But the landlords were not a monolithic group. Infighting among their factions was commonplace. The Muslim League, dominated by this class, was afflicted with the same infighting as a result. Hence, it soon disintegrated after the death of Liaquat Ali Khan, the first Prime Minister of Pakistan. Disintegration of the Muslim League strengthened the bureaucracy and it forged an alliance with the military establishment.Â

On the other hand, most politicians in Pakistan came from the feudal class. In Punjab, they dominated the political scene. A study of class origin of 50 Pakistani politicians who were on top positions during the first decade indicate that "at least 20 of them were landlords" (KK Aziz, Party Politics in Pakistan). This aristocratic domination of the Muslim League did not permit any nation building programme.

There is no documented proof that either Mohammed Ali Jinnah or Liaquat Ali Khan had devised any plan for the transformation of Pakistan into a democratic nation. Khalid B Sayeed, in The Political system of Pakistan, rightly observed, "Pakistan witnessed a continuation of the political system that was evolved by the British rulers." Naturally then, Pakistan polity was later to be dominated by retired civil servants, police, military officials and feudal bureaucrats.Â

Moreover, the origin of the Pakistani military lies with British army. It was never a politically neutral army. It took some time for the Pakistan Army to recover from the trauma of Partition and the Indo-Pak War in Kashmir. The Army had first tasted political power when it was called to restore peace during anti-Ahmadi riots (1953) in Lahore. Though the declaration of martial law in Lahore at that time had a limited objective, the Army went beyond its brief and took upon tasks which had not been assigned to it. The Lahore martial law of 1953 is the keystone in the history of military coups in Pakistan. "Martial law administrator, Maj Gen Azan Khan embarked upon cleansing whole civil life from sanitation to political reform" (Defence Journal, Karachi, November, 1978).

The first assault on democracy was the dismissal of Khawaja Nazimuddin as Prime Minister by bureaucrat-turned-politician Governor-General Ghulam Mohammed. "There have indeed been times-such as that October night in 1954 -- when with a General to the right of him and a General to the left of him, a half-mad Governor General imposed upon a captured Prime Minister the dissolution of the Constituent Assembly and the virtual setting up of a semi-fascist Executive" (The Dawn, 11 August 1957). 

A new Constituent Assembly was nominated which brought in another Constitution in 1956. Election was scheduled to be held in 1958. But before the election, President Iskander Mirza abrogated the constitution and imposed martial law headed by Gen M Ayub Khan. A decade of Ayub's regime legitimised military rule under a democratic faÃ§ade. The rest is history. All these happening from 1947 onwards have either American backing or silent support.Â

11-21-2007, 11:37 AM

I have gone through the article âPakistanâs Collapse, Our Problemâ
By FREDERICK W. KAGAN and MICHAEL OâHANLON. Which got published in the International Herald Tribune

The authors have painted a very grim picture of Pakistan in the event of its control going over to the fundamentalists. The problem with the United States has been that it always backs the wrong horse and there are many examples like Shah of Iran, Vietnam, and Cambodia etc. At present, it is already militarily engaged in Iraq and Afghanistan and if we go by what is happening in these two countries the end to conflict and stabilization of these two countries are nowhere in sight. The European Union from whom the majority of the NATO force is drawn are not really interested to take in casualties and consequently they want to fight a war without getting killed. In the process the effectiveness of the NATO force as a striking force is questionable. This is the main reason why the Taliban has once again regained control in certain parts of Afghanistan.

In the article there is talk of direct US intervention in Pakistan to prevent the nuclear weapons falling in the hands of the terrorists, in the event of a total collapse of the present administrative set up in that country. The situation in Pakistan is indeed very complex. There is a strong undercurrent of nationalism in the minds of the decision makers as well as in the minds of the general population. In such a situation, there will be very strong reaction to any direct foreign intervention and in fact it will unite the country and all the fundamental forces will become united and more powerful. The Pakistan army is well equipped and trained by the United States since the six decades. With a population of 160 million, majority of whom will put up a stiff resistance against any conventional foreign force. Therefore, no invading force can just have an easy walk over in Pakistan.

A direct Military intervention has to be completely ruled out. That leaves the option of strengthening of the present government in Pakistan, backing another Army General or ensuring the early election and setting up of a strong democratic government. The last of the three options in my view is the best in the present situation. However, it is the most difficult task both for the international community and the democratic forces within Pakistan to achieve this objective.

Looking from the Indian point of view, we should expect influx of refugees in the event of any major political upheaval across the border. Its intensity will depend upon the speed with which the current take over of the districts by the pro Taliban fundamentalists spread across the country. At present, it is confined in some pockets along the Western border of Pakistan with Afghanistan. If this situation is allowed to continue, it is only a matter of time before the fundamentalists taking over other areas in the country. As they progress, some presently dormant fundamentalist elements in other parts of the country and some fence sitters will join hand for material gains. This would lead to tension and increase in subversive activities across our Western borders.

From the present deliberations that the USA and EU are having with Pakistan, it appears they are more concerned with getting access and control of the nuclear assets of Pakistan rather than trying to find and help establish stable political and administrative machinery in that country, which can effectively face the destabilizing forces.

Mudiji and Shambhuji may like to give their enlighten views on the situation as they see it developing.

Shambhu · 11-21-2007, 05:54 PM

Saar, my views are not as enlightened as yours. What is the use of a candle when the Sun is already out, I ask humbly. <!--emo& Smile

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11-21-2007, 08:46 PM

Shambhuji, there is no need to be so humble, we are all here to exchange views on current matters of public interest. The beauty of democracy is that we have the right to express our free views.I am of the view that every human being do contribute to the building up of public opinion on all important matters.
Coming back to the issue of Pakistan, there are media reports from Washington that a section of the US Administration is considering the possibility to providing monetary gains to the tribal leaders who will cooperate with them and switch over side. This is again another risky gamble and I wish wiser sense will prevail amongst the decision makers.

11-21-2007, 09:26 PM

QUOTEthere are media reports from Washington that a section of the US Administration is considering the possibility to providing monetary gains to the tribal leaders who will cooperate with them and switch over side. This is again another risky gamble and I wish wiser sense will prevail amongst the decision makers
Now, why it is wrong, I think this is best to trim down fundoos. Give otherside weapon to match Paki Army, both are and will be tigger happy on each other.
Great idea. <!--emo& Big Grin

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ravish · (This post was last modified: 11-21-2007, 10:29 PM by ravish.)

There is a high prbability of it misfiring. If that happnes, the whole process will become more complicated. We should always remember that more unstable Pakistan becomes , its mischief value particularly against India will increase. India is the best commodity that can be sold in that country to mobilise manpower.

11-21-2007, 10:47 PM

QUOTE. We should always remember that more unstable Pakistan becomes , its mischief value particularly against India will increase. India is the best commodity that can be sold in that country to mobilise manpower.
Do you know how Iraqi Army collapsed? How easy for US to march direct inside Baghdad within days without any opposition? Iraqi strong army who had fought decade long war with neighboring country, just collapsed. Think it over.

First India should worry about those brainwash fundoos within India. Paki fundoos are and will be busy for while within Pakistan and they are working all over world. They have global vision.
Atleast, India will put more efforts in securing borders, those skills are required to protect border in North East. Unstable Pakistan keeps India awake and growing.
I have no faith on Indian leadership; I trust Indian Armed forces to protect Indian citizens.

Now Paki elites come to India for shopping, medical treatments, they are buying Indian products, after sometimes Paki Industry will go in zero. Country without pillar will fail. What India should do, they should beam Astha channel in Pakistan, Hindunized Pakistan, open multiple Sri Sri Art of living centers in Pakistan. By doing this India will protect India and Paki citizens and crumbling after effect will be very smooth.

This solution is out of the box.

11-21-2007, 11:56 PM

Musharraf cuts short Saudi visit: no meeting with PML-N chiefQUOTEPresident Musharraf called off the rest of his visit to Madina Munawarah where he had to offer Salam at Roza-e-Rasool (Peace be upon him). Sources said Sharif maintaining his hard stance towards the rulers declined to meet the president or any of his envoys on Tuesday in the holy land.

He told highly placed members of the royal family that his position was 'non-negotiable' with regard to his and his party's disposition towards the Musharraf administration. Highly placed diplomatic sources revealed to The News that Mian Nawaz Sharif plainly conveyed to his hosts that he would not unilaterally order his party to take part in the general elections if the conditions he has already spelled out were not met.

Nawaz Sharif says he may return to Pakistan next weekQUOTE"The Saudi authorities are quite keen to take this matter forward with Musharraf," Sharif said. "And to my knowledge, I know Musharraf is in Saudi Arabia to discuss my return to Pakistan."

According to Saudi sources cited by the newspaper, the kingdom favours an understanding between Musharraf and both opposition leaders - Sharif and Benazir Bhutto.
..............
Sharif said he had been in close contact with the Saudi royal family, which he said was pushing for his return to Pakistan by the Nov 26 deadline to register himself to contest in the Jan 8 parliamentary elections.

Shambhu · 11-22-2007, 12:15 AM

Ravishji,

After 3-4 years of following Pak in another avatar, I feel sufficently confident that Pak is in free fall. And that the US will only learn thru mistakes. So now I am not interested in anayzing Pak, except for fun.

That said, I do very much agree with this guy who has posted on another site:
http://satyameva-jayate.org/2007/11/14/eme...akistan-part-2/
----
As someone (coincidentally also called Ashish..hmm ) had been advocating on BR for years: highlight the truth about Pakistan and then watch them sort themselves out. Highlighting the truth is a thankless job in which people call you a dreamer, a idealist, non-pragmatistâ¦yawn. But it was done, and is being done.

Baluchistan is going to burn? Hah! ..Dreamer. And then..poof! Nawab Bugti âcave-inâ done by the TFTA. Baluchistan burns.

Please note: Now even Paki press is running round using terms like âlet us highlight the truth about India onlee..â (What truth will they highlight? Pakis will die of shame and embarassment if they even peek at the truth about India, about their beloved Mughals, the Tajo Mahalay, the overarching dominance of ancient Hindus in all things scientific etc)

India will do itself a big disservice trying to do things overtly or covertly in Pakistan. Pakistan is just a symptom. Islam is the real problem. Let Pak simmer, boil, splinter, try to regroup itself, re-splinter in a different way, go quasi-communist, and then implode. Let the army wipe out the mujahids, and let the mujahids mortally wound the army. Let this count as one more of the defeats of Islam. Let more and more muslims come back to living as decent human beings.

âPakistan is part of Akhand Bharat, and we want it back in a suitably sanitized form.â

By the way do you know a hundred or so muslims celebrated Diwali in Pak to support Justice Bhagwandas? Baby steps..<!--emo& Smile

--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' />

The Aurangzeb-worshipping, fatwa-happy, âwe are entitled onleee bacause we are muslimsâ kind of Islam is the thing our eyes should be on. Keep your eyes on the prize, everybody. Donât get yourself into messes by thinking you have won the marathon after running just 3.14 miles.
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Naresh · 11-22-2007, 08:11 PM

[center]Pak N-sites vulnerable to militant attacks : Report[/center]

QUOTELONDON : A British think-tank specialising on Pakistan's security issues has said that the chances of Islamabad's nuclear assets falling into the hands of tribal militants have increased as most of the arsenals are located in the restive north-western parts of the country.

The Pakistan Security Research Unit (PSRU) in its report, 'The Security of Nuclear Weapons in Pakistan', said Islamabad had in place robust measures but each contained some weaknesses and many were being exacerbated by the present political turbulence in the country.

Cheers <img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/cheers.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='cheers.gif' />

11-22-2007, 09:36 PM

QUOTELONDON : A British think-tank specialising on Pakistan's security issues has said that the chances of Islamabad's nuclear assets falling into the hands of tribal militants 
They are already in wrong hands = Paki Army
<!--emo& Big Grin

--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' />

11-22-2007, 09:56 PM

Pakistan court rules for Musharraf QUOTEISLAMABAD, Pakistan - A Supreme Court stacked with judges loyal to President Gen. Pervez Musharraf cleared the way Thursday for him to rule as a civilian president, throwing out a final challenge to last month's election.

Stepping down as army chief will help Musharraf blunt criticism from opposition parties and foreign governments of his imposition of emergency measures on Nov. 3.

The court decision, which was widely expected after Musharraf purged it of independent-minded judges, means the Election Commission can put a stamp of approval on the October vote that won him a third five-year term.
..............

Hire your own election commission
FIrst get 95% votes
Sack Judge
Appoint your own people as Judge
And call yourself elected and Winner
Hurray !!!

Now this was done Castro, PinPot, Saddam and Paki hero Mushy.
Except Castro and Mushy all are in good place. <!--emo& Big Grin

--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' />

11-22-2007, 09:57 PM

Thousands flee Pakistan fighting QUOTEThousands of people have fled fighting between government troops and pro-Taleban militants in Pakistan's northern Swat district.
A senior army commander said on Saturday that the army was launching a full scale offensive in the area.
.........

11-22-2007, 10:49 PM

QUOTEBalochistan Liberation Army chief Balach Marri killed in Afghanistan
Baloch leader Nawabzada Balach Marri was killed along with his bodyguards in a clash somewhere inside Afghanistan on November 21, triggering widespread violence in capital Quetta and some other parts of the Balochistan province, according to Dawn.

Nawabzada Gazeen Marri, the elder brother of Balach Marri, confirmed his death while talking to the BBC. However, Gazeen Marri refused to name the place where he was killed. He also said that only his family members could decide about the burial of Mir Balach Marri, as âwe do not want his body to be disgraced the way the rulers treated that of Nawab Akbar Khan Bugti.â Beeburg Baloch, a spokesman for the defunct Balochistan Liberation Army (BLA), called journalists in Quetta by satellite phone from an unknown location to inform them about the nationalist leaderâs death. He informed that two other Baloch leaders had also died in the clash. However, some other reports suggested that besides Balach Marri, seven of his security guards and six other people were killed in the incident. Some sources reportedly suggested that Balach Marri was killed in an air strike by NATO forces in the Gramshar area of Afghanistanâs Helmand province. They believed the Western forces had mistaken Marri and his entourage for Taliban militants.

Naresh · 11-23-2007, 03:48 AM

[center]Pakistan barred from Commonwealth <img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/Flush.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='Flush.gif' />[/center]

QUOTEPakistan has been suspended from the Commonwealth because of its imposition of emergency rule, the organisation has announced after a meeting in Uganda.

Cheers <img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/cheers.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='cheers.gif' />

11-23-2007, 10:22 AM

Commonwealth is anyway junk club.

Nawaz will be returning back soon, US is ok with new judge and judgement. All media is doing neutral reporting on judgement issue.
Mushy is safe and sound. He will remove his uniform by the end of this month.
He will get his next round of Aid soon.

Naresh · 11-23-2007, 04:12 PM

Musharraf and his Collaborators <img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/Flush.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='Flush.gif' />

Cheers <img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/cheers.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='cheers.gif' />

11-23-2007, 09:44 PM

Gem from TFT
QUOTEPunjabis responsible for breaking up of Pakistan - Shahbaz Sharif

As reported in daily Jang, president of PML (N) Mian Shahbaz Sharif has said that he considers Punjabis responsible for the breaking up of Quaid i Azamâs Pakistan. He said that Pakistanâs demand started from Bengal and Punjab was the last that joined the caravan of Quaid i Azam. Talking to overseas Pakistanis in a seminar entitled âDemocracy and Rule of Law in Pakistan,â he said that Sindhis sacrificed for Pakistan but were pushed to the wall. He said that Pakistan is facing terrorism and only a democratic government can solve this problem.

Crops destroyed because of BenazirÂ <!--emo& Big Grin

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According to daily Express, chief minister of Punjab Chaudhry Pervez Ellahi said that Benazir and Asif Zardari are a corrupt couple who ran away from Pakistan after looting the national treasury. He said whenever they come to Pakistan, the blessings of God disappear from here. Crops were infected by pests on their arrival in Pakistan. He said that patriotic Pakistanis have seen the face of the corrupt mafia that is the Pakistan Peoples Party.

Dakoo raj in Tandiawala 
As reported in Daily Pakistan, due to the unprofessional district police, dacoits and criminals have virtually taken control of Tandiawala city. A resident protested in front of city police of Tandiawala and journalists asked the police chief about the rise of thieves in the city. The SHO of the local police station said that they canât risk their lives and residents should protect themselves on their own.Â

Farsightedness of ex-chief minister of NWFP 
Munno Bhai wrote in daily Jang, that on October 2, just a few hours before resigning as chief minister of NWFP, Akram Khan Durrani issued a notification that gave an illegal and one legal arms license to all the ex-chief ministers of NWFP. All the ex-chief ministers would be allowed to live in a rest house, circuit house or frontier house for the rest of their lives. They would be given pick and drop services and protocol on Peshawar and Islamabad airports and can use government vehicles for three days in two cities. They would also avail one driver, two security guards and one private secretary for the rest of their lives. The chief minister has shown farsightedness and has arranged the pension and gratuity for himself.

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