Bodhi and all,
I beg to differ; Ravish has brought out very pertinent points and he has infused new blood on the forum. I am going to talk about a few of these:
1. It will be naiive to think that we are getting BPO and KPO type jobs without
'importing culture' associated with it. Today their screen names r Tom, Dick and Harry which may be their real names tomorrow.
2. Though he touched on some Punia who is bringing communal divide amongst Hindus but all I can tell you is that whole Hindu society is divided by elections.
<!--emo&  --><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif' /><!--endemo--> I will be surprised if anybody can stem these rots. The 1st is associated with 'papi pate'
bhukhe pate na bhaje Gopala
and 2nd is associated with democracy.
<!--emo&:thumbsup--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/thumbup.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='thumbup.gif' /><!--endemo--> Ravish!
Social churning is inevitable, needed and healthy for a dynamic country & society.
What has it (persky little distractions in teens' and "refuse to grow up" adults' world) got to do with "identity" of a hindu and hinduism? Nothing.
<b>Captain Kumar,
I am encouraged by your understanding of the problem. On the question of bringing up children in a spiritual environment, who is going to bring them up. The young parents who will probably be in their early 30s. Ninety percent of the MBA etc qualified Bahus are not interested to have in laws anywhere in the vicinity of their living quarters, most of the interactions are now confined to interaction at rather social and formal level, or through the mobile phone.
These young couples are now part and parcel of the initiator of this whole movement and I am sorry to say that even in the small towns the various types of developments that I have mentioned earlier is fast catching up. Even religious festivals are fast turning into jam sessions.Only last Saturday night 78 young boys and girls were arrested in Mumbai for consuming drugs at a Saturday night party. They were obviously from normal middle class families as the TV reported that they were all holding good positions in the corporate sector.
The other day in a Hindu wedding, the boy and the girl sat on two chairs side by side for the various religious ceremonies as they felt it uncomfortable to sit on the traditional ashan on the floor. For quite some years, two piece and three piece suits have taken over from the traditional dhoti as the weeding dress. Soon we may see Hindu traditional wedding in jeans and leather jacket. It is a normal site to see both middle age and young ladies smoking in public. Since some of the buildings have now become no smoking zone, they come out in the open without any shame to smoke. Dad, Mom, Son and daughter/ daughter in law sharing a bottle of whisky or some other hard drink is not uncommon in many middle class families.
Even ten years ago, it was common to offer tea, coffee or cold drink to visitor at Indian homes. Even the connoisseur of the bottle use to keep it under rap, now the situation has vastly changed and offering alcohol is no longer a taboo.</b>
Therefore, who is going to bring up children in true spiritual environment.
Dear Ravish,
Good discussion, very important topic. thanks for starting. Though I would request moderators to move it to some other thread (since it is not really anything to do with BJP's future) where we can discuss it.
<!--QuoteBegin-Ravish+Sep 26 2006, 10:42 AM-->QUOTE(Ravish @ Sep 26 2006, 10:42 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->1. who is going to bring them up.
2. These young couples are now part and parcel of the initiator of this whole movement
3. in the small towns the various types of developments is fast catching up.
4. Even religious festivals are fast turning into jam sessions.
5. 78 young boys and girls were arrested in Mumbai for consuming drugs ... all holding good positions in the corporate sector.
6. The other day in a Hindu wedding, the boy and the girl sat on two chairs, two piece and three piece suits have taken over from the traditional dhoti,
7. It is a normal site to see both middle age and young ladies smoking in public.
8. Dad, Mom, Son and daughter/ daughter in law sharing a bottle of whisky or some other hard drink is not uncommon in many middle class families.
9. Even ten years ago, it was common to offer tea, coffee or cold drink to visitor at Indian homes. Even the connoisseur of the bottle use to keep it under rap, now the situation has vastly changed and offering alcohol is no longer a taboo.[/b]
Therefore, who is going to bring up children in true spiritual environment.
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There is absolutely no denial, there is a challenge. Absolutely no denial. But we have to define the problem first. Problem is not soceital dynamic changes. Don't be afraid of changes. Changes are not bad, they are natural. Change itself is life. Upanishad says 'Charaiv Iti', change/movement is the end in itself. But what is the problem? Problem is not change in general - but degradation and erosion of values. And why is that happening? Vishwas ji had very nicely and accurately summarized that.
Out of the above points, some are normal changes, nothing wrong about them. For example the dressing. Do you know at one time, it was prohibited for sannyasis and brahmacharis to wear stitched clothes? But then later, with the changes in circumstances, that gave way to normal clothing. Even Janeu/Yagnopaveet used to be made of 'Moonj' at one time, as mentioned in Hanuman Chalisa - Kaandhe Moonj Janeu Saaje'. But Moonj Janeu is very uncomfortable - so it gave way to more comfortable cotton janeu.
Likewise, same thing about social code of conduct. As you rightly said, at one time tea was not offered to visitors. True. In my childhood in village, visitors were offered cow milk or sugarcane juice, depending upon the season, as I remember it. Now tea is normal. Do you know even Potato was not indegenous and considered tamasik. Jains dont eat potato even today. But that changed with time, and potato is eaten even during Upavasas in hindu homes.
Smoking, I am sure you have not visited the rural areas of Telangana, Haryana or west UP, else you would not have said this. Rural women are very fond of smoking biris. Seeing this, and its ill effects, is why Guru Nanak ji had prohibited tobacco usage for His followers.
So, don't categorize all changes as bad. But be very clear about preserving the values. And to know the values, one has to transform oneself.
Look, this is kaliyuga, era of confusion, and moral degrading. Degrading of values is expected. Spiritual environment is polluted. As Maharshi Dayanand once said, if you let water flow naturally, it will always go downwards, by the force of gravity. To lift it upwards, one needs to heat it up. That heat is TAPAS. What we need today is, that every awakened Hindu, does this Tapas. Which is what was the message of Vishwas-ji, and I agree. You can not just stand by and watch the degradation. It is call for us to stand up and do something.
Do what - is what should be the focus of discussion.
Jin Dhoondha Tin Paaiya, Gahrey Paani Paith,
Aaya Bhata Dubiya, Raha Kinare Baith... (perhaps Nanak)
09-26-2006, 08:53 PM
(This post was last modified: 09-26-2006, 09:53 PM by Bodhi.)
translation of:
<!--QuoteBegin-Bodhi+Sep 26 2006, 11:17 AM-->QUOTE(Bodhi @ Sep 26 2006, 11:17 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->Jin Dhoondha Tin Paaiya, Gahrey Paani Paith,
Aaya Bhata Dubiya, Raha Kinare Baith... (perhaps Nanak)
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Those who dive deep and search, find pearls.
Those, who just sit by and watch the waves, are drowned when tide comes.
09-26-2006, 11:05 PM
(This post was last modified: 09-26-2006, 11:07 PM by ravish.)
Smoking of Bidi and other rolled up leaves by the rural ladies in certain parts of India are very common. Similarly, in my state Jharkhand, ladies of some tribes go topless, which is quite normal. However, such things cannot get implanted in the metropolis and be called usual tradition.
You have understood the points now may start a new item of discussion away from the present one under BJP.
I am from School run by Army and College was Catholic. Being from a co-ed school and college, we always treated everyone as friend. We used to go out for movie or just hangout at main Bazaar in Cantonment. Now it is call dating. Drinking and smoking was present during my school and college days among boys and girls. But I never tried and never been interested. Current problem is due to sudden exposure of new freedom and "New" money. Some will learn after hitting bottom, some will learn watching other hitting bottom and some will never take that route.
Its teacher, parents and society responsibility to guide next generation. Teach them Right or wrong and prepare them for life.
Fashion and dress trends are always temporary phase. None can beat fashion sense of old Hindu/India dress. Sari is most sexy graceful dress on earth.
<!--QuoteBegin-Mudy+Sep 27 2006, 12:00 AM-->QUOTE(Mudy @ Sep 27 2006, 12:00 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->
Fashion and dress trends are always temporary phase. None can beat fashion sense of old Hindu/India dress. Sari is most sexy graceful dress on earth.
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<!--emo&  --><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo--> Agreed Mudy 100%. Yrs back, I was attending an educational seminar in Pragti Maidan, Delhi and on dress, I said that hats off to Indian woman who has not left her sari but the same can't be said about Indian man:
mein to sala sahib ban gaya---
---- jaise gora ho koyi London ka.
That reminds me as not to forget the effect of movies on fashions.
But it does not stand the scrutiny of pragmatism. Once a French girl wearing coat pant told me in Delhi if Indian woman has to progress; she has to change to this dress. Sari can be embarrasment in DTC buses once in a while if stuck in the door.
09-27-2006, 12:25 AM
(This post was last modified: 09-27-2006, 12:26 AM by Bodhi.)
Alright. Reading posts of Ravish, Mudy and Kaptan Sahab, looks like we all agree that 'we need to redefine the problem statement'. So first let us define what we mean by these terms:
Culture
Tradition
Fundamentals
Civilization
Values
Trends
And once we define above, we should then define what is the content of these in context of 'Hindu'. That is what do we mean by:
Hindu Culture
Hindu Tradition
Hindu Fundamentals
Hindu Values
Hindu Civilization
Let us do that. And then we shall be more clearly able to see what is our problem.
One thing that is universally true is that the liberal westernized population will have a much lower birth rate than the conservative (and generally more rural) areas. Therefore in the long term, globally the liberal populations will decline at a much faster rate than the conservative population.
World population is very high today by historical standards, and therefore in this century we should see a decline in the number of people in the world. The conservative areas will decline less (or may even increase) in population than the liberal areas.
This is very predictable by Vedic Philosophy which emphasizes the cyclical nature of everything in the universe.
<!--QuoteBegin-Mudy+Sep 27 2006, 12:00 AM-->QUOTE(Mudy @ Sep 27 2006, 12:00 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->I am from School run by Army and College was Catholic. Being from a co-ed school and college, we always treated everyone as friend. We used to go out for movie or just hangout at main Bazaar in Cantonment. Now it is call dating. Drinking and smoking was present during my school and college days among boys and girls. But I never tried and never been interested. Current problem is due to sudden exposure of new freedom and "New" money. Some will learn after hitting bottom, some will learn watching other hitting bottom and some will never take that route.
Its teacher, parents and society responsibility to guide next generation. Teach them Right or wrong and prepare them for life.
Fashion and dress trends are always temporary phase. None can beat fashion sense of old Hindu/India dress. Sari is most sexy graceful dress on earth.
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<!--QuoteBegin-Capt Manmohan Kumar+Sep 26 2006, 07:44 PM-->QUOTE(Capt Manmohan Kumar @ Sep 26 2006, 07:44 PM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->Bodhi and all,
I beg to differ; Ravish has brought out very pertinent points and he has infused new blood on the forum. I am going to talk about a few of these:
1. It will be naiive to think that we are getting BPO and KPO type jobs without
'importing culture' associated with it. Today their screen names r Tom, Dick and Harry which may be their real names tomorrow.
2. Though he touched on some Punia who is bringing communal divide amongst Hindus but all I can tell you is that whole Hindu society is divided by elections.
       <!--emo& --><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif' /><!--endemo--> I will be surprised if anybody can stem these rots. The 1st is associated with 'papi pate'
            bhukhe pate na bhaje Gopala
and 2nd is associated with democracy.
<!--emo&:thumbsup--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/thumbup.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='thumbup.gif' /><!--endemo--> Ravish!
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u may please define all the terms.
But to carry on the discussion, these problems already highlighted are begging for answers.
Have you seen NBC Dateline show<b> "'Dateline' show 'To Catch a Predator.'"?</b>
In every show they catch atleast one Indian or Indian origin male.
(Ist episode - Indian Christian, 2nd- Sikh ... last week episode Hindu - Bhaskaran)
Last week episode they caught Director of Software Company from Georgia. When he got caught his excuse included, he is going through marriage problem, he is MBA, he is foreigner etc.
Why this is happening, because in India they think it is acceptable behavior in Western society. In India they get away because of poor law enforcement, here they get rude awakening. I am surprised why Indian media skip this news from their front page, atleast it will educate perverts in India that itâs not an acceptable behavior.
Link -Abhilash Bhaskaran
Link
<!--QuoteBegin-Mudy+Sep 26 2006, 05:59 PM-->QUOTE(Mudy @ Sep 26 2006, 05:59 PM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->Have you seen NBC Dateline show<b> "'Dateline' show 'To Catch a Predator.'"?</b>
In every show they catch atleast one Indian or Indian origin male.
(Ist episode - Indian Christian, 2nd- Sikh ... last week episode Hindu - Bhaskaran) [right][snapback]58021[/snapback][/right]
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Mudyji, for those of us who don't know about that program, what is it about. What is the predators caught doing?
<!--QuoteBegin-Bodhi+Sep 27 2006, 03:35 AM-->QUOTE(Bodhi @ Sep 27 2006, 03:35 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-Mudy+Sep 26 2006, 05:59 PM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Mudy @ Sep 26 2006, 05:59 PM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->Have you seen NBC Dateline show<b> "'Dateline' show 'To Catch a Predator.'"?</b>
In every show they catch atleast one Indian or Indian origin male.
(Ist episode - Indian Christian, 2nd- Sikh ... last week episode Hindu - Bhaskaran) [right][snapback]58021[/snapback][/right]
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Mudyji, for those of us who don't know about that program, what is it about. What is the predators caught doing?
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Hope that answers...
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8828472/
<b>Why is the Cow Sacred to the Hindus?</b> <!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->
The human mother drinks cows milk, and from it produces her milk, which we humans drink at birth. Then at 3 months we start drinking cows milk in a bottle then in cups. We also eat delicious foods made from cowsâ milk. Foods like ice cream, yogurt, cheese, and curd. From our birth to our death we rely on cows milk. Thus the cow is considered a mother as she provides us with nourishing food for life. How can you kill such a mother?
Every time you eat pizza, ice cream, yogurt, and other foods made from cowâs milk, you should be very great full to the cow.
How can you kill a mother that provides nourishing food to you for life?
The cow is also the favorite animal of God, Lord Krishna. Why? Since the cow provides nourshing food to Lord Krishnaâs children, you and me. Lord Krishna is very much greateful to her. Would you be greateful to someone who feeds your children, or would you order them to be killed and eaten?
Lord Caitanya, who was an incarnation of Lord Krishna states in the Caitanya Caritamrta, Adi-lila chapter 17, verses.165-167.
âCow-killers are condemned to rot in hellish life for as many thousands of years as there are hairs on the body of the cow.â
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09-27-2006, 06:29 PM
(This post was last modified: 09-27-2006, 06:55 PM by Bodhi.)
Before we start talking about 'Hindu Culture', let us define some terms, purely on the basis of sociology. Once members agree on this, we shall extrapolate it upon Hindu Culture, and discuss.
<span style='color:red'>Culture</span>
Culture has been called "the way of life for an entire society." As such, it includes codes of manners, dress, language, religion, rituals, norms of behavior and systems of belief. Various definitions of culture reflect differing theories for understanding â or criteria for evaluating â human activity. in the UK in 1871 described culture in the following way: "Culture or civilization, taken in its wide ethnographic sense, is that complex whole which includes knowledge, belief, art, morals, law, custom, and any other capabilities and habits acquired by man as a member of society.
A common way of understanding culture sees it as consisting of four elements that are "passed on from generation to generation by learning alone": Values, Norms, Institutions, Artifacts.
Values - Values comprise ideas about what in life seems important. They guide the rest of the culture.
Norms - Norms consist of expectations of how people will behave in various situations. Each culture has methods, called sanctions, of enforcing its norms. Sanctions vary with the importance of the norm; norms that a society enforces formally have the status of laws.
Institutions - Institutions are the structures of a society within which values and norms are transmitted.
Artifacts - things, or aspects of material cultureâderive from a culture's values and norms.
<span style='font-size:14pt;line-height:100%'>Different Cultures within a society - Subcultures</span>
Subcultures â groups with distinctive characteristics within a larger culture. Large societies often have subcultures, or groups of people with distinct sets of behavior and beliefs that differentiate them from a larger culture of which they are a part. The subculture may be distinctive because of the age of its members, or by their race, ethnicity, class or gender. The qualities that determine a subculture as distinct may be aesthetic, religious, occupational, political, sexual or a combination of these factors.
In dealing with subcultures, there are essentially four approaches:
1. Monoculturalism: In Europe, culture is very closely linked to nationalism, thus government policy is to assimilate immigrants.
2. Leitkultur (core culture): A model developed in Germany by Bassam Tibi. The idea is that minorities can have an identity of their own, but they should at least support the core concepts of the culture on which the society is based.
3: Melting Pot: In the United States, the traditional view has been one of a melting pot where all the immigrant cultures are mixed and amalgamated without state intervention.
4: Multiculturalism: A policy that immigrants and others should preserve their cultures with the different cultures interacting peacefully within one nation.
The way nation states treat immigrant cultures rarely falls neatly into one or another of the above approaches. The degree of difference with the host culture (i.e., "foreignness"), the number of immigrants, attitudes of the resident population, the type of government policies that are enacted and the effectiveness of those policies all make it difficult to generalize about the effects. Similarly with other subcultures within a society, attitudes of the mainstream population and communications between various cultural groups play a major role in determining outcomes. The study of cultures within a society is complex and research must take into account a myriad of variables.
<span style='color:red'>Religion / Faith System Vs Culture</span>
Religion and other belief systems are often integral to a culture. Religion, from the Latin religare, meaning "to bind fast", is a feature of cultures throughout human history. The Dictionary of Philosophy and Religion defines religion in the following way:
... an institution with a recognized body of communicants who gather together regularly for worship, and accept a set of doctrines offering some means of relating the individual to what is taken to be the ultimate nature of reality.[10]
Religion often codifies behavior, such as with the 10 Commandments of Christianity or the five precepts of Buddhism, or Yam-Niyams of Hinduism. Sometimes it is involved with government, as in a theocracy.
<span style='color:red'>Cultural change</span>
A 19th century engraving showing Australian "natives opposing the arrival of Captain James Cook" in 1770. Cultures, by predisposition, both embrace and resist change, depending on culture traits. For example, men and women have complementary roles in many cultures. One gender might desire changes that affect the other, as happened in the second half of the 20th century in western cultures. Thus there are both dynamic influences that encourage acceptance of new things, and conservative forces that resist change.
Three kinds of influence cause both change and resistance to it:
forces at work within a society
contact between societies
changes in the natural environment.
Cultural change can come about due to the environment, to inventions (and other internal influences), and to contact with other cultures. For example, the end of the last ice age helped lead to the invention of agriculture, which in its turn brought about many cultural innovations.
In diffusion, the form of something (though not necessarily its meaning) moves from one culture to another. For example, hamburgers, mundane in the United States, seemed exotic when introduced into China. "Stimulus diffusion" refers to an element of one culture leading to an invention in another. Diffusions of innovations theory presents a research-based model of why and when individuals and cultures adopt new ideas, practices, and products.
"Acculturation" has different meanings, but in this context refers to replacement of the traits of one culture with those of another, such as happened to certain Native American tribes and to many indigenous peoples across the globe during the process of colonization. Related processes on an individual level include assimilation (adoption of a different culture by an individual) and transculturation.
Cultural invention has come to mean any innovation that is new and found to be useful to a group of people and expressed in their behaviour but which does not exist as a physical object. Humanity is in a global "accelerating culture change period", driven by the expansion of international commerce, the mass media, and above all, the human population explosion, among other factors. The world's population now doubles in less than years.
Culture change is complex and has far-ranging effects. Sociologists and anthropologists believe that a holistic approach to the study of cultures and their environments is needed to understand all of the various aspects of change. Human existence may best be looked at as a "multifaceted whole." Only from this vantage can one grasp the realities of culture change.
Now, let us try these sociological principles upon Indian Soceity in general, and Hindu culture worldwide.
09-27-2006, 10:02 PM
(This post was last modified: 09-27-2006, 10:39 PM by ravish.)
Out of the different classifications indicated above India should fall under which category. We have to see the composition of the Indian population and the influence of different religions and cultures on the Indian social structure.
In the immediate past the most momentous and significant development that took place was the framing and adoption of the Constitution of India which came into force on 26th January, 1950.The majority of the present generation of the Indian population has been born since the enforcement of the above Constitution. After due deliberation for over two years, the Constituent Assembly of India framed the various salient features and the directive principles for the governance of the nascent republic. It is very interesting to read the debates on each of the provisions of the Constitution that took place in the Assembly for some of the most mundane provisions of the4 Constitution.
It resulted in the provision that the State shall not have any religion. At the same time elaborate provisions have been made to ensure that the Citizens shall have the full liberty to practice any faith of their liking. As a result of such a provision the activities of propagators of each faith obviously enjoy certain freedom of action. This has obviously affected the social system of the country.
Secondly, in the last sixty years there has been increase in the rate of literacy and consequently more and more people are getting higher education. This education is under the English education system, and they get exposed to the liberal and other thoughts of the West. At the same time very few of the students get exposed to Hindu and other Indian thoughts and customs to the same extent as they are exposed to the thoughts of the West. Very few parents today will venture to ask any of their children to do Masters in Sanskrit, which will make him capable to read and properly understand Hindu scriptures.
In fact, soon a time may come when one will fined more Sanskrit scholars in the EU well versed in the provisions of the Hindu religion and ancient Indian customs than the number of such experts in India. Today, an average Indian child has no exposure to many of the basics of Indian culture and ethics. The mad rush for IT and assorted other courses have ensured that only discarded fellows land up in the faculty of theology ,art and culture. All parents who can afford do send their children to English Medium schools whether run by Convents or otherwise.
Thirdly, the influence of the Western Culture through increase in travel, Western Education, exposure to the Culture of the West are all contributing factors in the framing up of the current social structure of India. So it appears to me that India falls under the melting pot category, somewhat similar to the USA.
I don't see why sending a child to an English Medium School is a bad idea. After all, a knowledge of English is very likely a good thing. But, beyond that, one must teach one's vernacular language thoroughly, as well as Sanskrit. The current rules of India that emphasize Hindi must somehow be changed or evaded.
Sending children to convent schools is an <b>exceptionally bad idea</b>, for all the reasons I mentioned before.
Also, Ravish, please don't use bold for entire posts. You can use them for portions of your posts that you wish to emphaisze, but whole posts in bold makes for an unpleasant reading experience.
09-27-2006, 10:44 PM
(This post was last modified: 09-27-2006, 10:55 PM by ravish.)
Appearance change complied with.
There is no denying the fact that English language education is essential today for a descent living.However, how many of our top schools have Sanskrit teachers and even where there is one, how many parents will allow their children to learn the subject.The other fall out of the English language has been the gradual loss in interest by the younger generation in Indian religious and cultural matters.
There has been increase in Inter State marrages , so instead of the mother tongue many infant will now start speaking in English only.
Thanks, Ravish!
Clearly, you have exerted a considerable amount of thought-effort in this matter. I would like to hear from you about what can be done to reverse the process.
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