Godhra

12-17-2006, 04:53 PM

Interpol issues notice to Godhra carnage accused
http://hindustantimes.com/news/181_18706...040003.htm

United News of India

Vadodara, December 16, 2006

Saukat Ahmed Charkha, one of the key accused in the infamous Godhra train carnage, was issued a red-corner notice for by the Interpol, police said in Vadodara.

Sources in the Special Investigating Team (SIT) which is probing the Godhra carnage, said Charkha, a member of the core group that conspired to set the Sabarmati Express on fire at Godhra station on February 27, 2002, was now in Pakistan. The Interpol had been given the whereabouts of the accused in Pakistan through the CBI.

This is the second red-corner notice to be issued against Godhra train carnage accused. Earlier, a similar notice was issued against another prime suspect Salim Panwala, who escaped from his Godhra house in 2004 following heavy stone pelting by the local residents on a raiding police team.

Sources said both Charkha and Panwala were party to the conspiracy, which was hatched at a meeting held in the Aman Guest House in Godhra on February 25, 2002. Maulana Umarji, believed to be the prime conspirator in the train carnage case, had already been arrested.

The SIT claimed that Charkha had brought petrol to the Godhra station from a petrol pump in the Signal Falia and also poured it on the S-6 coach with others, causing the death of 59 passengers and karsevaks who were returning from Ayodhya.

04-27-2007, 02:26 AM

What Ails the Indian Intellectuals?

QUOTEJo Johnson's article in the Financial Times is merely one among several such etherized articles that appear regularly in the Indian mainstream media.

Johnson contends that Muslim terrorism is the direct consequence of their feeling marginalized in India. This ad nauseam-refrain is neither new nor original but it breaks new ground in a perverse manner - Johnson attributes the Gujarat riots of 2002 as the cause for this marginalization. 

Johnson cites the Banerjee report to conclude that the train coach caught fire accidentally. He passes it off as fact and tries to absolve the Muslim mob that initiated the carnage.

An official report, published four years later, in 2006, concluded that the blaze had been an accident, but at the time it was blamed on Muslim youths, who were accused of throwing petrol-bombs at the saffron-clad pilgrims.

Curiously, Johnson omits mention of the Gujarat High Court's dismissal of not just the report, but the entire panel as invalid and unconstitutional.

In an embarrassment to the Centre, the Gujarat High Court on Friday declared as "illegal" the setting up of UC Banerjee Committee to probe certain aspects of Godhra train carnage. (Indian Express, Oct 13, 2006)

Johnson gives credence to the (discredited) Banerjee report to support his conclusion that innocent Muslims were killed in large numbers in Gujarat for no fault on their part. This also effectively lays the blame on the Hindus and pushes them further, on the defensive. However, a mountain of evidence exists to the contrary. A few questions about the coach-burning, and the Banerjee investigation itself:

The synopsis [of the Banerjee report], as summarised in the media, makes no mention of the thousands of Muslims who crowded round the bogie on fire. How come?
Was the fire that occurred when the Sabarmati Express was in Godhra, known as a highly communalised town, purely coincidental?
What were the crowds of Muslims who had gathered in large numbers around the Express doing? Had they previous intimation that some bogies would soon go up in flames?
Another question: the Special State Inspector General of Police, Vadodara Range, Shri Rakesh Asthana has been quoted as asking how the Banerjee Committee, before submitting its Interim Report, had not bothered to examine the police who had been investigating the case right from the beginning. The Banerjee Committee, it would seem, had not even bothered to examine experts from the State Forensic Sciences Laboratory (FSL) who have been collecting evidence from the scene of the crime. The Banerjee Committee went public even before taking FSL evidence. Why? (Ed: Formatted

read more on web

05-18-2007, 01:29 AM

Ignoring the rest of her stuff, have a question

http://chronicle.com/temp/reprint.php?id=t...8b82dpsct9f9003

QUOTEBecause the area adjacent to the tracks was made up of Muslim dwellings, and because a Muslim mob had gathered in the region to protest the treatment of Muslims on the train platform, blame was immediately put on Muslims.

I havent seen this claim or maybe I have forgotten about this. What is the basis of this claim ? Did Banerjee commission come out with this ?

05-18-2007, 03:23 AM

QUOTEI havent seen this claim or maybe I have forgotten about this. What is the basis of this claim ? Did Banerjee commission come out with this ?
Syed, Indian Express journalist. Who also added eve teasing in masala.

Husky · (This post was last modified: 05-20-2007, 12:26 PM by Husky.)

QUOTE(sengotuvel @ May 19 2007, 03:55 PM)http://chronicle.com/temp/reprint.php?id=t...8b82dpsct9f9003

Fears for Democracy in India
By MARTHA C. NUSSBAUM

On February 27, 2002, the Sabarmati express train arrived in the station of Godhra, in the state of Gujarat, bearing a large group of Hindu pilgrims who were returning from a trip to the purported birthplace of the god Rama at Ayodhya where, some years earlier, angry Hindu mobs had destroyed the Babri mosque, which they claimed was on top of the remains of Rama's birthplace). The pilgrimage, like many others in recent times, aimed at forcibly constructing a temple over the disputed site, and the mood of the returning passengers, frustrated in their aims by the government and the courts, was angrily emotional. When the train stopped at the station, the Hindu passengers got into arguments with Muslim passengers and vendors. At least one Muslim vendor was beaten up when he refused to say Jai Sri Ram ("Hail Rama"). As the train left the station, stones were thrown at it, apparently by Muslims.

Fifteen minutes later, one car of the train erupted in flames.
Fifty-eight men, women, and children died in the fire. Most of the dead were Hindus. Because the area adjacent to the tracks was made up of Muslim dwellings, and because a Muslim mob had gathered in the region to protest the treatment of Muslims on the train platform, blame was immediately put on Muslims.[right][snapback]69030[/snapback][/right]Long article. Ends with a little info on author:
QUOTEMartha C. Nussbaum is a professor in the philosophy department, law
school, divinity school, and the college at the University of Chicago.
Her book The Clash Within: Democracy, Religious Violence, and India's
Future will be published this week by Belknap Press of Harvard
University Press.
Three things.
(1) "Fifteen minutes later, one car of the train erupted in flames"
Spontaneous combustion again.

(2) And here's one I haven't seen - the implied explanation for why this spontaneous combustion happened:
It was no less than jehovallah's Divine Retribution for the convenient scenario of 'at least one muslim vendor' being 'beaten up when he refused to say' - note the translation - 'HAIL Rama'. <img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/blink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='blink.gif' />
(That's not what Jai Sri means, but that's only the tip of what Martha Nussbaum got wrong.)
Also, where's the proof that a vendor was harrassed? That was just one of the stories doing the rounds afterwards. I don't know why Nussbaum didn't pounce on the far more sensational story that a muslim girl was being troubled and that this was what had incensed the islamis into 'protesting'. Wouldn't that have heightened the sense of repugnance in her audience? Guess she didn't know about it when she wrote her ... thing.
But we'll leave it at the poor vendor. He was intimidated and 'beaten up' by the mostly women-and-children train passengers for not saying 'HAIL Rama'.
It's what us Hindoos do after all: We go around and find out if a vendor is muslim and call him kafir and want the infidel beheaded if he doesn't say Allahuakbar - I mean, beat him up if he doesn't say 'HAIL Rama'.

(3) But finally, an admission that salamis were indeed gathered on the platform - this was initially reported in the media after the Sabarmati train torching, but then strategically left out by news reports in India for a long time. However, Martha Nussbaum decides she will include it here, because she wants to make salamis even greater, more dramatic victims:
"Because the area adjacent to the tracks was made up of Muslim dwellings, and because a Muslim mob had gathered in the region to protest the treatment of Muslims on the train platform, blame was immediately put on Muslims."

There, you see! Martha Nussbaum, who was present on the very platform where it all took place, has said it: It was pure coincidence that salamis, who were only there to protest ill-treatment of some other salamis, were gathered on the same platform from which the (unmentioned here) flames were hurled onto the train.

That proves it. The still spontaneous combustion was all divine retribution on the Hindus. The salamis had gathered, but only to protest against how they had been treated. The salamis are now doubly innocent and thus doubly victimised: now both before and after the Sabarmati burnings. I feel so bad for the peaceful protesters standing there; if only there were any truth to this I might even cry... Thank gawd for Martha Nussbaum's clarity of thought and sense.

Now, I want to see if Martha Nussbaum will dare use the exact same logic on what happened in the WTC. Since she's crossed the hurdle of rewriting history with lies once, it means she will have no scruples (left) to impede her from repeating it. She will begin: "In September 2001, evil American nationalists doing their daily job in the WTC...." Let her finish that statement in the same vein as what she dealt the poor dead Hindus above - that is, let her end with "blame was immediately put on Muslims" as above.

I suppose this is just a repeat of the christian hierarchical worldview: if Americans die due to islamoterrorism, it's the worst possible thing that could ever happen. Stop the international press, take over Australasian, Asian, European, African news channels and for three years straight, play, replay and repeat the same old thing on TV. Don't mind the million Sudanese getting murdered by the christoislamis, only the 3000 American lives count!

If islamoterrorists murder Hindus, well we must make the international media do a whitewash - like the terrorist American media is continuing to do to Serbia - because salami lives are more important to christos in the US than those of the unsaved Hindu infidels.

All I can say is Nussbaum's name is very apt. Nut tree. A tree full of nuts. Completely nuts.

Rest of the article is also full of the christolies like - no use highlighting, the whole paragraph is full of it:
QUOTEIn the days that followed the incident, wave upon wave of violence swept through the state. The attackers were Hindus, many of them highly politicized, shouting slogans of the Hindu right, along with "Kill! Destroy!" and "Slaughter!" There is copious evidence that the violent retaliation was planned before the precipitating event by Hindu extremist organizations that had been waiting for an occasion. No one was spared: Young children were thrown into fires along with their families, fetuses ripped from the bellies of pregnant women. Particularly striking was the number of women who were raped, mutilated, in some cases tortured with large metal objects, and then set on fire. Over the course of several weeks, about 2,000 Muslims were killed.Did Nussbaum get that '2000' from her native informant Seetalwaddle?

06-21-2007, 03:25 AM

06-21-2007, 10:30 PM

Nussbaum - Shining Light or Burning Cross?

QUOTEAccording to Nussbaum, these people were all "Hindu activists" because the train was going from Ayodhya, a city that contains a place that is as holy to Hindus as Jerusalem is to Jews. Never mind that many of the 58 were CHILDREN; at least some were Muslim including the wife of the Station Master of Godhra, who had just got in at the station. Never mind that on Indian Railways, reservations for sleepers are made months in advance, and the destination was Ahmedabad, a cosmopolitan city of several million. As the train pulled out from the station and gathered speed, someone pulled the emergency chain 3 times, forcing the train to stop, in about a mile. A mob of a few thousand gathered there, (estimates at the time counted 4000) stopped the train, threw stones to dissuade anyone from getting out, locked and barred the doors of the coach (sleepers have barred windows on Indian Railways) and then threw in a number of cans of gasoline or kerosene and then some burning rags, and prevented anyone including the firefighters from coming to the rescue, and watched as 58 people burned to death (some managed to escape from the other side of the train before the fire and smoke prevented any other survivors).

Nussbaum, who sneers at Indians who work on fiber optics, shows HER level of science (not to mention honesty) by claiming that this was some sort of accident, or maybe suicide, or maybe it was "justified" because someone on the train had a disagreement with a tea vendor at a station several miles down the line.

Note that this was a winter morning - it gets cold in Gujarat. It was 7AM, hardly the time for drunks to gather. The train was an express, averaging some 70 mph. So according to Nussbaumlogic, the news of the argument at some station flashed to Godhra, where several thousand Islamic types immediately decided on "action", went and bought some 100 gallons of gasoline at a gas station, rushed to the station, positioned themselves a mile outside, got someone to the station to buy a ticket on the express, got him/her in, had the chain pulled 3 times, the person escaped, and the festivities began.

Of course, might one ask why, say, if you were a passenger on a train, you and your 6-month-old baby deserve to be burned to death "because" someone on a train of 600 had an argument about a cup of tea 300 miles away? Aha! University of Chicago Law Professor Nussbaum "justifies" that in true U. Chicago Law School logic: The train carried some HINDOOS!

If this is not racist, bigoted, terrorist-supporting, utterly ghoulish dishonesty by this sickening parody of a human that is employed by the University of Chicago Law School, then I don't know what is.

And this is the SHINING LIGHT OF LIBERALISM??? Wow!


<img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/ROTFL.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='ROTFL.gif' />

10-28-2007, 10:19 PM

Why is there no discussion on the Tehelka sting here? I searched for it but could not find it, did i not look in the right place or it is really not discussed here? what is everyone's opinion on the Tehelka sting.

I am afraid that their publication and their videos on you tube are going to be used by the Islamic extremist to excite more hate towards Indians. I think by putting all those provocative tapes in public tehelka has almost made it compulsory for the Muslims to react.

I think an attack like the one in Mumbai in 1993 is eminent in Gujarat or may be even in any other part of India. Brace yourself everyone the next year is going to be a very very bloody year for India.

10-29-2007, 05:22 AM

The crux of this political hoax is-

If a Sikh gets killed it is secular,
If a Kashmir Pundit gets exterminated from their home land it is secularism,
If a Hindu gets slaughtered it is again secular,

BUT WHEN A MUSLIM GETS KILLED IT IS COMMUNAL.

10-29-2007, 05:24 AM

QUOTEWhy is there no discussion on the Tehelka sting here? I searched for it but could not find it, did i not look in the right place or it is really not discussed here? what is everyone's opinion on the Tehelka sting.
We are discussing it under UP Gujarat poll thread in Newshopper. Becuase this is COngress sick joke on Hindus. Anyway now reporters are sued by lawyer.

ramana · 10-29-2007, 08:14 AM

Wonder if Nussbaum thinks space shuttle Colombia disaster was due to it carrying a Hindu astronaut?

11-03-2007, 09:17 AM

QUOTEOctober 29, 2007
GUJARATÂ KAÂ SACH
by

B. P. SINGHAL, IPS. (Retd.), Ex-MP Rajya Sabha.

Â Â Â They-THE SECULARISTS - are at it once again.

Â Â Â "It was a well planned 'GENOCIDE'", "it was 'POGROM'", "it was state sponsored 'TERRORISM'", is what they had said in screaming headlines day after day after day in 2002, in the Delhi based "SECULAR" English dailies and the "SECULAR" electronic media. So complete was the Goebblesian propaganda and so effective was the concealment of truth, that even the Supreme Court lost its judicial balance and without verifying what steps the Government of Gujarat had taken, it went on to write on page 72 of its judgement in the Best Bakery Case that, "The modern day NEROS were looking elsewhere when Best Bakery and innocent children and helpless women were burning ...........".

Â Â Â It was media power at its worst that caused this unwarranted outburst from the Hon'ble Supreme Court. All the Gujarat language dailies were giving truthful accounts which were at complete variance with the Delhi based Media.Â

Â Â Â "The Hindu", the leading-most South India daily reported on 1st March 2002 : "The Chief Minister Modi frantically asked for the Army units to be called in." On 2nd March 2002 'The Hindu' reported : "Unlike February 28 when one community was entirely at the receiving end, the minority backlash on 1st March has further worsened the situation .......... and the Army staged a flag march in Ahemedabad on 1 st March 2002 at 9.00 A.M."

Â Â Â It was therefore truly shocking that on 25.8.2007, "Aaj Tak" harped on the same old refrain that "Modi did not call the army until three days had passed". Even more outrageous was their insistance on this point. When "Aaj Tak" contacted me on phone to get my response, I told the anchor that the GODHRA carnage took place on February 27th 2002, that the Hindu backlash commenced on February 28th and the Army was doing flag march on the forenoon of March 1st ............ He cut me short by saying that "this is exactly what we had said, no action was taken by Modi on 29 th, 30th and 31st thus giving three clear days to the murderers ........" I had to cut him short by reminding him that the date 28 th was 28th of February 2002 and there was no 29th, 30th or 31st in that month. The phono was of course disconnected. However, it has to be said to the credit of "Aaj Tak" and "Headlines Today" that they called me for a full length studio debate from 9.15 P.M. 11.45 P.M. next day. But the details of that debate shall have to wait. For the present, however, it is imperative that certain facts are stated to prevent perpetuation of the LIES propagated in 2002.Â

Fact 1: That SHOOT AT SIGHT ORDERS had been given by the Government on 28th itself.

Being an Ex-DGP and also a Member of Parliament at that time, I was personally in touch with the office of DGP Gujarat and the Commissioner of Police Ahemedabad. I was keen to tell them, (a) To call in the Army atonce and (b) To issue "SHOOT AT SIGHT" orders to all officers of the rank of Sub-Inspectors and above. It was very comforting to learn that the Government of Gujarat had already taken both those steps by 2.30 P.M. on 28 th February itself. In fact the State Government had also requested for Armed Police reinforcements from neighbouring states, besides calling for the Army.

Fact 2: On the 28th February itself 10 Hindus had been shot dead and 16 Hindus had been wounded by POLICE BULLETS.

Fact 3: On the next day i.e., 1st March an additional 24 Hindus were shot dead and 40 Hindus wounded by POLICE BULLETS.

Fact 4: In the entire period of riots total Hindu casualties were 80 shot dead, and 207 wounded by POLICE BULLETS alone. (But no Delhi-based media showed any interest in giving coverage to these casualties.)Â

Fact 5: The Muslim counter attack which commenced from 1st March 2002 was no less ferocious. In the first three days alone, out of a total of 611 deaths, 101 were caused by POLICE FIRING. Of these, 61 were Hindus and 40 were Muslims.Â

Fact 6: As on 5th of March, as many as 40,000 Hindus had had to be given shelter in Relief Camps. (There was plenty of media coverage given to the plight of Muslims in relief camps but no Delhi-based media covered any Hindu relief camps.)Â

Fact 7: In answer to the Parliament questions, the UPA Home Minister gave the figures of casualties during Gujarat riots. There were Muslims killed 790, Hindus killed 254, wounded 2500 in all missing 223. Thus this proves the lies that what happened in Gujarat was a one-sided affair for every three Muslims who died in Gujarat, one Hindu was also killed.Â

Such heavy casualties in riot control are UNPRECEDENTED in the entire history of Indian Police. The figures of casualties caused by Police firing in the first three days alone indicate the FEROCITY of Police action. (And the "SECULAR" PARTIES and their MEDIA cohorts even to this day proclaim unabashedly that Modi ordered the Police "to look the other way" to give a free hand to murderers for three days). If they have any respect for TRUTH, they can cross-check the casualties with the records of the concerned hospitals. The Police is duty bound to carry the dead or the wounded in Police firings to the concerned Government hospitals.Â

With the Muslim counter attack commencing from 1st March onwards till the riots were quelled altogether, what took place in Gujarat was a full-fledged Hindu-Muslim Riot. It was no GENOCIDE, or POGROM, or STATE TERRORISM against the Muslims of Gujarat. "No modern day 'NERO' was looking elsewhere". The modern day Chief Minister was dealing with the situation as best as was possible with the highly limited forces at his command.Â

Because of the spontaneous conflagration at scores and scores of locations, it is entirely possible that the Police or Fire brigade may have failed to reach a scene for hours, OR, having been spread so thin, the posse of Police that did reach the scene was deterred from intervening by the sheer ferocity of violence at that point in time. But to say that Police was restrained as a measure of Government POLICY is completely belied by the sheer immensity of casualties caused by Police firings.Â

The insane FEROCITY and BRUTALITY with which Ram Bhaktas including "innocent children and helpless women" were roasted alive at Godhra set the benchmark for the equally insane ferocity of the Hindu backlash and the ferocity of the Hindu backlash was followed by an equally insanely ferocious counter attack by the Muslims.Â

The Delhi-based media made out as though the whole of Gujarat was in flames. It concealed the fact that out of 18,600 villages, 240 Municipal towns and 25 Districts, the number of locations that were affected by riots was just 60. Not a single man-day was lost in the 200 odd Industrial townships by any Industry in Gujarat because of the riots. The examinations in Schools, Colleges and Universities were conducted as per schedule during the period of riots.Â

Irrefutable confirmation that it was a Communal RIOT and not a GENOCIDE or POGROM, came from the verdicts of Courts in POST-GODHRA riots cases:

(i) Deccan Herald reported on May 2004:Â Conviction of 3 confessingÂ Â Â Â Muslims for 7 years forÂ Â Â Â attempted murder.Â

(ii) Indian Express dated 19.03.2006 reported: 7 Muslims convicted for lifeÂ Â Â Â for the murder of MukeshÂ Â Â Â Panchaal.Â

(iii) Indian Express dated 29.03.2006 reported: 9 Muslims convicted forÂ Â Â Â attempted murder and Arms ActÂ Â Â Â with sentences ranging from 10Â Â Â Â years to 18 months.Â

(iv) Indian Express dated 19.05.2006 reported: 4 Muslims nailed by DNA testsÂ Â Â Â and convicted for LIFE.Â

Â Â Â While the "SECULAR" PARTIES and the "SECULAR" Delhi-based Media singled out the Hindu backlash for mega-publicity, they BLANKED OUT the Godhra carnage, as well as the Muslim counter attack for reasons best known to them. Nevertheless, not only the MINORITY community of Gujarat, but the entire population of Gujarat had been well aware of "GUJARAT KA SACH", ALL ALONG. As a result, all the Goebblesian propaganda had to bite the dust when the BJP was not only returned to serve Gujarat for a second term, by an overwhelming majority in the legislature, in the Post-Godhra-Post-Gujarat elections, but also continued to win the Corporation, the Municipal and the Gram Sabha elections with overwhelming margins. In a DEMOCRACY, THE PEOPLE KNOW WHO IS WHAT. AND THE PEOPLE ARE THE FINAL ARBITERS.Â

Â Â Â Tehelka and the sponsors of Tehelka have once again tried to vitiate communal harmony not only of Gujarat but of the entire country. People overwhelmingly believe that the Tehelka "sting operation" was sponsored by the Congress. If it is so, then, this would be the third major attempt of the "SECULAR" Congress to stoke the communal flames in the country. The first major attempt was made through the Sachar Commission who ordered a headcount of Muslims in India's Defence Forces. Thanks to the Army Chief who firmly put his foot down to prevent the communal virus from infecting the Army. The second attempt was made when the Government of India filed the affidavit in the Supreme Court, in the Sethusamudram case wherein it QUESTIONED the very existence of Sri Ram. Now by sponsoring Tehelka, "Sting operation" it made a despicable third attempt to communalize the Indian Polity. What Tehelka "Sting operation" has done, clearly attracts Section 153A of the IPC and if Congress has not sponsored this "Sting operation" then it should not hesitate to prosecute Tehelka u/s 153A IPC. As Tehelka as well as the T.V. Channels who aired those tapes are headquartered at Delhi, it is the Delhi Police and consequently the Government of India to take the legal action against them u/s 153A IPC.Â

Â Â Â Nobody could have had any grouse if "Tehelka" and the T.V. Channels had passed on those tapes to the Supreme Court, for suitable action, or even telecasted the so-called confessions of VHP activists or the BJP MLA for the information of the people. And, if indeed, those confessions are genuine and have any evidentiary value in them, then the law must take its course against those whose guilt is stablished. The real MISCHIEF that attracts Section 153A IPC is the JUXTAPOSITION AND INTERSPERSION of rising flames and bellowing smoke with the earlier recorded bytes of the Gujarat riots, accompanied with crashing cymbals, beats of drums, screaming voices, and the highly provocative comments of the 'anchors' of the channels that aired those tapes.Â

Â Â Â There is a clear intention to inflame communal passions through what all was telecast in the name of "Gujarat ka Sach", and it would be dangerous for the future of the country if such a nefarious act goes unpunished by default of the UPA Government.Â

Date: 29.10.2007
(B. P. SINGHAL)
IPS. (Retd.), Ex-MP Rajya Sabha

11-05-2007, 11:51 PM

QUOTE told the anchor that the GODHRA carnage took place on February 27th 2002, that the Hindu backlash commenced on February 28th and the Army was doing flag march on the forenoon of March 1st ............ He cut me short by saying that "this is exactly what we had said, no action was taken by Modi on 29 th, 30th and 31st thus giving three clear days to the murderers ........" I had to cut him short by reminding him that the date 28 th was 28th of February 2002 and there was no 29th, 30th or 31st in that month. The phono was of course disconnected. 
They were inventing days now!! <img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/ROTFL.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='ROTFL.gif' /> <img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/ROTFL.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='ROTFL.gif' />

**acharya** · 11-06-2007, 11:17 PM

QUOTEI am sorry but are you saying that until the criminals of '84 are brought to justice, there can be no discussion of any kinds of mass murder and mayhem targeted at any community? 

I am sorry but where exactly did you learn to read? Care to point where and when I said that "mass murder and mayhem targeted at any community" does not require discussion?

My point was simple: People- especially of the Left and Congress ilk appear to be using the Gujarat case as some kind of indelible stain on "secular" India, whereas they are all too keen to avoid discussing what their favourite herrows did to get the issue to that stage!

When I grew up, there was no NDA, no BJP- they were non entities. It was this great Congress, aided and abetted by the Left that still conducted pogroms galore and finally landed us in this present stage!

Is discussing that too hard to conceive of?

QUOTEOn this forum we are supposed to be patriots. And we are supposed to be logical and committed to India's security and welfare. I assume that means security and welfare for all Indians, right? So how is it logical to react to outrage against the killings of 2002 by invoking all the very real evil deeds of Congress? If I am outraged at the targeted killings of Muslims in 2002, does that make me a condoner of the targeted killings of Sikhs in 1984, or the attacks on Hindus in Kashmir, or the crime against humanity and Hindus that was Jinnah's call for Direct Action? (Or, gasp, a Congress Agent, whatever that is?) Or does it just make the 2002 slaughters the most recent in a series of horrifically cruel and violent episodes--therefore getting the most recent condemnation--that have undermined our country's welfare, security and even basic humanity? 

Dear Rao, if you were to prance about the forum (as certain gents have done- not you), quivering with outrage about the nasty VHP and whatever AND claiming that it was a one off or taking partisan shots about how your bunch of tribals (Congress) are better than that bunch of tribals (insert the opponent)- then yes, it is ABSOLUTELY germaine for it to be pointed out that you are talking through your hat.

That is what Amitabh did. He deserves the response that I gave him - pointing out that his heroes, in whom he has invested so much moral support and sanctimony ( a defense of the Congress any time they are criticized), have a bunch of mass murderers in their midst and they have had zero compulsion in bringing them to justice.

IF you restricted yourself to Gujarat 2002 without bringing in accounts of the bravery of "your" tribals and how their arrow is the longest, then others (like me) who detest all politicians wouldnt have to point out that the emperor has no clothes.

QUOTEOn a personal note, when I took up a signature campaign in 1984 to demand action against the congress officials who murdered Sikhs, I can't tell you how many times I was asked by hecklers, "where were you when Sikhs were killing Hindus?" So, forgive me for thinking that the reaction of bringing up the '84 massacres of Sikhs as a kind of 'defense' against condemnation of the '02 massacres of Muslims may have less to do with actual outrage on behalf of the Sikh victims and more to do with engaging in morally obfuscatory tactics, using whatever other victim 'Y' that comes to mind when someone talks about a victim 'X'. 

Oh please! As a Hindu, I have been heckled countless times by Sikhs in India and abroad, by their HR supporters about how "my community" committed a pogrom- when it was these Congress types who did it. I have assisted others financially who had to resettle on account of what happened in '84. These beloved Congress guys went from house to house inciting people to "treat these Sikhs a lesson as they did to Hindus in Punjab" and you think that attitude came spontaneously?

I have classmates and friends who lost kith and kin in 1984, and I treat your assertion of yours about moral obfuscation and the like with the contempt that it deserves.

As an Indian, my country and I have been held culpable for the actions of these "deshbhakts" who are now suddely aware of the Gujarat 2002 "holocaust" committed by "Moditva". Gee, and they didnt have anything to do with it, right? How many years has Modi ruled Gujarat vs the Congress, hmm?

We suffered for decades thanks to the misdeeds of these idiotic political parties who had complete untrammelled control of India, created the present situation and now these "oh so liberal types" have suddenly discovered riots in India and "misdeeds" vs "evil 2002". Why? Because their kith and kin are in the Congress and of course, the Grand old party of India just made "mistakes".

Such equivocation may work for you. It doesnt for me.

I am outraged at the fact that somebody can even quote the Congress as being "brave" in Kashmir or whatever given the role it has played in bringing the situation in India -including Kashmir- about, for which it is primarily culpable.

And yet we have apologists for the Congress, taking a morally higher stand than those "of other parties" who are "not as good as theirs"?!

If you have a problem with understanding what someone wrote- next time, ASK before you start off on your soapbox.

QUOTEPlease, let's not act like it is somehow controversial or unpatriotic to stand up against the mass murder of people (who by the way don't even have to be innocent, I hate the whole 'targeting innocents' bit, that's so wolf-and-lambish; all I have to do is to declare you guilty of something then I am free to kill you.). 

Kindly dont use my shoulder to fire your drivel from. If you can point out ONE post where I have questioned anyones patriotism for questioning Gujarat, point it out.

Otherwise, maintain a modicum of intellectual honesty and stand on your soapbox versus those who debate on similar lines.

QUOTEThe killings of Muslims (yes, I am talking deliberately about the killings of Muslims only here) was not a sacred or holy thing that happened, that we at BRF of all places should be jumping up and down in, if not in the direct defense of those killings, at least in their implied defense. In case anyone is missing the point, such behavior is typical of Pakistani morality, we don't bring any credit on ourselves when we even remotely infringe on that particular copyright. 

Get off your silly high horse please.

Its Amitabh & others like him who implied that Gujarat was something out of the ordinary "Moditva", "experiment" - not others. One gentleman parroted the usual "Gujarat experiment" and then self vamoosed from BRF after trying to heckle posters. No mention of the fact that the "Gujarat experiment" has been the "MP experiment", the "UP experiment", the ..by their beloved tribal institution.

As far as I am concerned, Gujarat is one in a long line in similar incidents dating from Indian independence where the utter breakdown of law and order (for whatever reason- whether it be accidental or deliberate) has lead the beautiful gentle people of India to take the law in their own hands and deliver vigilante "justice" on whosoever was nearest. With all the subtlety and surety of dropping JDAMs into the middle of a city block whereas the actual perpetrator is a mile away.

As regards calling me a Pakistani and thereof, its folks like you who cause most of the damage. Each time some discussion like this comes up, some immature chap like you will promptly get on his high horse and then start claiming how moral he is versus the rest. And of course, whats better than dubbing everyone else Pakistani or implying that their attitude is such.

Not much different from the other tactic of "why, why, you are a NAZI"..perhaps we need a local equivalent of Godwins law.

It is you who has implied that the "killing of Muslims" is some "sacred or holy thing" (whatever that is supposed to mean) as compared to treating the death of ANY Indian in rioting (as compared to justice delivered by the state) as illegal and pointless. Not least because riots INVARIABLY lead to mostly innocents getting affected whereas the actual perpetrators get scot free. In fact it is this entire business of treating the killing of "Muslims as a holy thing" whereas the others get a free pass, and the wide perception thereof of this being the state of affairs, that has led to the current issue.

And that as far as India is concerned, the Gujaratis are no better than you and I as far as moral superiority is concerned.

And frankly, I dont give a damn about what the Pakistanis do or dont. Chaps like you might- and there is nothing more Pakistani than looking at someone else and defining your behaviour by being what the "other" isnt.

**acharya** · 11-06-2007, 11:18 PM

QUOTE("Amitabh")I am afraid that your entire analysis Shaurya amounts to the flawed claim that just because the law and order machinery is suboptimal we should "understand" and perhaps approve when citizens and politicians take the law into their own hands and attack innocents.

It was unacceptable when it happened in 1984 and it is unacceptable when it happens in 2002. You and others can fulminate all you want against the Congress and its misdeeds but the fact is that - whether or not Gujaratis supported Modi after the riots - they were a national disgrace. The fact of 1984 is not germane to this.

It is also clear that the Congress made many wrong choices in the 1980s, whether it was the Punjab situation, Delhi riots, trying to appease both sides during the Ayodhya movement or giving sustenance to secessionists in Kashmir by facilitating election violations. These are serious blots on its record and it rightly paid the price by being out of power for eight years. It has not done enough to bring certain individuals to justice or even punish them internally.

But the fact also is that the Gujarat "experiment" was a national disgrace, and that even moderate BJP elements acquiesced in its electoral exploitation. The mukhota failed to do anything given the overwhelming support in his party for Moditva at the time.

And I find the fact that the overwhelming din of voices here is an attempt to underplay the evil that happened by referring to "context" and the implication that any criticism of the killing of Muslims (and the dead were not all Muslim) is incompatible with being pro-Hindu!

Quite illuminating, really.

I think it is quite illuminating that you dismiss the 1984 pogrom as a "misdeed" whereas of course Gujarat 2002 where both communities partook in violence was evil (of course only one side was).

And here you are, attempting to weasel out of the fact that it was the Congress which through many of its choices through the decades set up the communal polarization that India sees today.

Congress "made wrong choices in the 1980's"....errmm yes, sure- necklacing Sikhs, raping their women, supporting Bhindranwale and many many other people paid the price...wrong choices indeed. A convenient euphemism.

1984 was a "misdeed" whereas "2002 was evil".

And then of course the rhetorical coup de grace:

QUOTEany criticism of the killing of Muslims (and the dead were not all Muslim) is incompatible with being pro-Hindu!

...yet another strawman!!

And you wonder as to why nobody buys your SAJA stuff anymore, or for that matter doesnt find your "points" worthy of merit?

Do tell us Amitabh- a direct question, if you can be bothered to answer honestly!

Do you have your near and dear ones in the Congress? Have you campaigned for the Congress (as did one recently self departed from BRF gent)?

Care to tell us what they (and you) have done for the victims of '84 in terms of bringing the perpetrators to justice publically, apart from being "mukhotas"?

You think 8 years out of power (aw shucks, what a shame!) is enough to compensate for these "mistakes"? What goes through your mind when you support the Congress despite these acts?

No evocative imagery of "lions" striding through Sikh neighbourhoods and molesting "young girls" and necklacing innocent men, eh?

How come you missed out on that bit while yacking about the brave Congress in Kashmir & talking about cowards etc?

See, every third Sikh abroad holds "Indians/Hindus" responsible for 1984. I'd rather the actual perpetrators who held their political idealogy first and made the "earth tremble", be identified with this "misdeed".

A minor thing to be sure but lets begin..

ramana · 11-07-2007, 05:28 AM

I have been thinking about the publicity about the 'riots' and the motivation. Its mostly the Leftist and Liberals who do this. The prime objective is not just getting Modi but delegitimize the entire State machinery. The numerous distortions of the record are to discredit state legitimacy. One eg. it they always say three days of rioting occured. The train was burnt on Feb 27. Riots occured on Feb 28th. Central help was called for on March1st. This is where the three days 'lag' comes into picture. However Feb has only 28 days. There are reams written about the causalties during the riots. The fact is it was a massive situation and State forces were inadequate to deal with it.

Now why did the folks create a massive situation? I think the US response to 9/11 had something to do with it. In response to the twin towers collapse, the US promptly, by national standards, coerced TSP into giving them bases and attacked Afghanistan and bombed it to stoneage and replaced the Taliban regime. Globalization and awarness brought about the speedy retaliation by the US to terrorists actions to everyone everywhere.

In contrast the Indian govt., even when the Lok Sabha was attacked by TSP based terrorists, mobilised its troops and sat still at the borders on advice and caution of the US. The people in Gujarat, outraged at the burning of the train and the gruesome killings, took a leaf from the US and took matters into their own hands. It was a lynching in US style that is different than other riots at other times. The Gujarat State law and order machinery was overwhelmed by the number of incidents and the magnitude of the incidents.

If its was someother party than the BJP in power in Gujarat there would not be so much hue and cry. The Delhi Sikh killings by INC in 1984 were more numerous and gruesome with the perpetrators still scott free and in power in INC.

And lets get a proper prespective and not delegitimize state institutions for narro political reasons.

INC has little credentials now in Gujarat. More riots and killings occured under their watch in Gujarat.

**acharya** · 11-16-2007, 05:39 AM

Godhra and Congress-I
Godhra and Congress-II
Godhra and Congress-III
QUOTE
In Gujarat, Muslim terrorists (enjoying the full political patronage of the Congress Party and its allies), set fire to a railway carriage in which 58 innocent Hindu pilgrims who were travelling by Sabarmati Express were charred to death on that black Wednesday, 27 February, 2002 at 7.45 a.m. at Godhra Station.

The Television Crews reached Godhra on the afternoon of 27 February , 2002 itself.

The Television News Channels showed the pictures through the dayâof the burning of S6 Coach of Sabarmati Express and the dead bodies.Â On the morning of 28 February,Â 2002, Godhra was a lead story in all the Indian News Papers including the English Language Papers.

The Ahmedabad Edition of The Times of India devoted its entire front page to the burning alive of 58 pilgrims at Godhra. About two inside pages were also devoted to the incident.

S K Modi, a senior journalist and author, in his brilliant book âGODHRA: The Missing Rageâ has rightly observed: âBut something was missing.Â The rage was missing. There was no sense of rage in the reports. There was no trace of indignation in the bland description. There was no anger. Nobody was feeling pained or hurt.

Nobody was feeling anguished at such a ghastly incident having taken place. Nobody was furious at the sheer brazenness of the gory massacre. And this applied to the elite of the society as a wholeâbesides the media, no political leader, no social activist, no thinker, no analyst, no think tank displayed a sense of despair. There were no statements of condemnation from any of the senior political leaders.

A two-line statement of condemnation was issued by the Congress President Sonia Gandhi, which was reported in a 1x5 Column centimeter item in inside pages of âThe Times of Indiaâ. Perhaps the letter was signed by someone other than Sonia Gandhi on her behalf. When confronted with the question of her failure to condemn the gory carnage a few days later in the Parliament, she angrily asked: âWho prevented the ruling party from condemning the incident?â

Even after the news of the Godhra massacre had reached New Delhi on 27 February, 2002, in Parliament in New Delhi there was a stubborn silence among the Congress Party Members, even when the Treasury Benches begged the opposition to join in a unanimous condemnation of the event.Â Islam-embracing, Christianity-coveting, anti-Hindu Sonia Gandhi did not feel the need to call upon the Prime Minister on 27 February, 2002.

According to her, at any rate, on that day, despite Godhra Massacre, our nationâs future was not in any way in any danger.

**acharya** · 11-16-2007, 05:42 AM

âIt is the callousness of the English Language Media and the English-speaking elite that infuriated the masses. The English Media did not stop at oblique attempts to protect the attackers.

It actually attacked the victims by justifying the train carnageâthe pilgrims had provoked the mob by not paying for tea. â¦ Pulling the beard of a tea vendorâ¦. Attempting to abduct a girl â¦ The theories went on. One professional activist told the Washington Post immediately after Godhra: âThe victims were not going for a benign assembly. They were indulging in blatant and unlawful mobilization to build a temple and deliberately provoke the Muslims in Indiaâ

11-16-2007, 05:43 AM

QUOTESeven facts that nail the lies about Gujarat 
Pioneer.com
The post-Godhra violence was neither 'genocide' nor 'pogrom' against Muslims. It was communal violence in which Hindus also died, many shot dead by police, says BP Singhal

Late month there was an attempt to revive the secularists' campaign of calumny against Gujarat Chief Minister Narendra Modi and his Government on the basis of the same old fiction about the post-Godhra violence of 2002. On October 25, Aaj Tak, while broadcasting Tehelka's 'sting operation', harped on the same old refrain that Mr Modi "did not call in the Army until three days had passed".

When Aaj Tak contacted me to get my response, I told the anchor that the Godhra carnage took place on February 27, 2002, that the Hindu backlash commenced on February 28, and the Army was conducting a flag march on the forenoon of March 1. He cut me short by saying that "this is exactly what we have said, no action was taken by Mr Modi on the 29th, 30th and 31st, thus giving three clear days to the murderers...". I had to remind him at this point that the date 28th was February 28 and there was no 29th, 30th or 31st in that month. The 'phono' was disconnected.

It is imperative that certain facts are stated to prevent the perpetuation of lies being propagated since 2002. Here are some of them:

Fact 1: Shoot at sight orders had been issued by the Government on February 28, 2002, itself. Being an Ex-DGP and a Member of Parliament at that time, I was in touch with the office of DGP Gujarat and the Commissioner of Police, Ahmedabad. I was keen to tell them: (a) Call in the Army at once; and (b) issue "shoot at sight" orders to all officers of the rank of Sub-Inspector and above. It was comforting to learn that the Gujarat Government had already taken both steps by 2.30 pm on February 28. The State Government had also requested for armed police reinforcements from neighbouring States, besides calling for the Army.

Fact 2: On the February 28 police had shot dead 10 Hindus and wounded 16 Hindus.

Fact 3: On the next day, that is, March 1, another 24 Hindus were shot dead and 40 Hindus wounded by the police.

Fact 4: In the entire period of riots, the police had shot dead 80 Hindus and wounded 207 Hindus. But no Delhi-based media showed any interest in reporting these casualties.

Fact 5: The Muslim counter-attack, which commenced from March 1, was no less ferocious. In the first three days alone, of a total of 611 deaths, 101 were caused by police firing. Of these, 61 were Hindus and 40 were Muslims.

Fact 6: As on March 5, as many as 40,000 Hindus had to be given shelter in relief camps. Plenty of media coverage was given to the plight of Muslims in relief camps but no Delhi-based media covered any Hindu relief camps.

Fact 7: In answer to Parliament questions, the UPA Home Minister provided the figures of casualties during the Gujarat riots: 790 Muslims killed, 254 Hindus killed, 2,500 wounded in all and 223 missing. These details nail the lie that what happened in Gujarat was a 'one-sided affair': For every three Muslims who died in Gujarat, one Hindu was also killed.

Such heavy casualties in riot control are unprecedented in the entire history of the Indian police. The figures of casualties caused by police firing in the first three days alone indicate the ferocity of police action. Yet, the 'secular' parties and their cohorts in media even to this day proclaim unabashedly that Mr Modi ordered the police "to look the other way" to give a free hand to 'murderers' for three days. If they have any respect for the truth, they can cross-check the casualties with hospital records. The police is duty bound to carry those killed and wounded in police firing to Government hospitals.

With the Muslim counter-attack commencing from March 1 till the riots were quelled altogether, what took place in Gujarat was a full-fledged Hindu-Muslim riot. It was no "genocide", "pogrom" or "state terrorism" against Muslims. No "modern day Nero was looking the other way". The modern day Chief Minister was dealing with the situation as best as was possible with the highly limited forces at his command.

Because of the spontaneous conflagration at scores and scores of locations, it is entirely possible that the police or Fire Brigade may have failed to reach a scene for hours, or, having been spread so thin, the police force that did reach a scene was deterred from intervening by the sheer ferocity of violence at that point in time. But to say that the police was restrained as a measure of Government policy is completely belied by the large number of casualties caused by police firing.

The insane ferocity and brutality with which Ram bhakts, including innocent children and helpless women, were roasted alive at Godhra, set the benchmark for the equally insane ferocity of the Hindu backlash and that was followed by an equally insanely ferocious counter-attack by Muslims.

The Delhi-based media made out as though the whole of Gujarat was in flames. It concealed the fact that of 18,600 villages, 240 municipal towns and 25 districts, the number of places affected by the riots was just 60. Not a single man-day was lost in the 200-odd industrial townships in Gujarat because of the riots. Examinations in schools, colleges and universities were conducted as per schedule during the period of riots.

Irrefutable confirmation that it was a communal riot and not a "genocide" or "pogrom" has come from the verdicts of courts hearing the post-Godhra riot cases. Here are some examples:

(i) The Deccan Herald reported in May 2004: "Conviction of 3 confessing Muslims for 7 years for attempted murder";

(ii) The Indian Express reported on March 19, 2006: "7 Muslims convicted for life for the murder of Mukesh Panchaal";

(iii) The Indian Express reported on March 29, 2006: "9 Muslims convicted for attempted murder and Arms Act with sentences ranging from 10 years to 18 months"; and,

(iv) The Indian Express reported on May 19, 2006: "4 Muslims nailed by DNA tests and convicted for life".

While the 'secular' parties and the 'secular' Delhi-based media singled out the Hindu backlash for mega-publicity, they blacked out the Godhra carnage as well as the Muslim counter-attack for reasons best known to them. Nevertheless, not only the minority community of Gujarat but the entire population of that State is well aware of the truth about Gujarat, or "Gujarat Ka Sach".

Tehelka and the sponsors of Tehelka have tried to vitiate the communal harmony not only of Gujarat but also of the entire country. Tehelka 'sting operation' clearly attracts Section 153A of the IPC. As Tehelka, and the television channels that broadcast studio simulated images of the riots, are headquartered in Delhi, it is incumbent upon Delhi Police, and consequently the Government of India, to take legal action against them under Section 153A of the Indian Penal Code.Â

**acharya** · (This post was last modified: 11-16-2007, 06:17 AM by acharya.)

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