Hi All,
I am interested in under going training to become a Hindu priest.
I have basic knowledge of samskrtam and can chant mantras well.
I would like to learn how to perform rites like upakarma, marriage, seemantam, grha pravesham, sraddha etc... on my own.
Does anyone know of any place in the U.S. where I can learn all this?
Thanks.
The Priest Emeritus of the Houston Meenakshi Amman Temple, the Rev. Rajarathinam Battar may be able to teach and qualify you.
Rajarathnam Bhattar
PH:281-489-0463
Fax:832-201-8862
mailto:rathna@b...
website:www.bhattar.com
12-29-2004, 12:12 PM
(This post was last modified: 12-29-2004, 12:14 PM by Sunder.)
<!--QuoteBegin-mitradena+Dec 29 2004, 07:26 AM-->QUOTE(mitradena @ Dec 29 2004, 07:26 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin--> I would like to learn how to perform rites like upakarma, marriage, seemantam, grha pravesham, sraddha etc... on my own. <!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Mitradena, this is indeed a noble thought. I have a few cents to add.
As far as Punyavachanam thru to Weddings go, you may do it under Purva Prayogam. The Funeral arrangements, Shraddham and other Pitru karma are to be done with care.. If you are performing Shraddha, then you need to take care of the 'krisram' and should not eat food (complete fasting) the day before and preferably after you perform the Shraddha and have the Shraddha bojhanam. A Shraddha (ceremony) should be done with complete and unflinching Shraddha (faith and commitment.) There is a whole checklist of things to take care of to ensure that the Pitrus are satisfied..
A Brahmana who performs anthima kriya or utthara kriya should be highly competent in protecting himself from the effects.
If you get into Vaidika Karma, you may want to consider how it would affect your spiritual path.
As far as the Purva Prayoga goes, there should be absolutely no problems with that, and I wish you all the best. <!--emo&  --><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->There is a whole checklist of things to take care of to ensure that the Pitrus are satisfied..
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If you can provide me this checklist that would be great.
Currently I have hired a priest to perform the sraddha and I am the yajaman.
If you have the list of things the yajaman must do, that would be great too.
<b>Women priests for the jet age</b>
TIMES NEWS NETWORK[ SUNDAY, JUNE 23, 2002 05:25:10 AM ]
PUNE/VARANASI/THIRUVANANTHAPURAM: The pantheon of the Hindu deities may have grown in numbers over the centuries, electric lamps may have replaced oil lamps and Vedic chants may have given way to filmi bhajans, but one element has weathered the changing times â the male priest.
Not anymore.
Because women priests are turning the age-old tradition on its head. In the very heartland of Maharashtraâs orthodox brahminical order, Pune-based Shankar Seva Samiti (SSS), since its inception in 1976, has trained, through its one-year course, over 7,000 women priests from all castes.
Another Pune-based organisation, the Jnana Prabodhini (JP), has blended tradition with modernity in its three-month course, which was started in 1990. So far, over 800 people, half of whom are women, have completed the course. Apart from giving training, Prabodhiniâs core team of 17 male and eight female priests also regularly performs all rituals.
In Kerala â Godâs own country â till a few years ago, anything related to Vedic hymns and sacred ceremonies was considered the domain of the Namboodiris and the Pottis â the two classes of the brahminical order. But, over the past few years, 37 non-brahmin women have become priests, thanks to the efforts of Gurupadam Institute of Kodungallur in Thrissur district.
The revolution is taking roots in Varanasi as well, where students of the Panini Kanya Mahavidyalaya are being trained in priesthood.
Dressed in yellow and wearing janeu (sacred thread), a group of young girls are performing havan and chanting mantras in chaste Sanskrit. The atmosphere is charged with spiritual fervour, reminiscent of the ashrams of yore.
This unique centre of learning has produced a number of Sanskrit scholars and karmakandi women pundits. Presently, 70 students from different parts of the country are on its rolls, preparing for degrees from prathama to acharya.
And all the efforts seem to bearing fruit as a perceptible change in attitude is visible. In Pune, for example, no eyebrows are raised when a woman priest conducts marriages, pujas or even a shradh. In fact, there is a growing preference for women priests for conducting these ceremonies.
As a client put it, ââWomen priests do not take short cuts while performing rituals.ââ Suniti Gadgil, a JP team member, performs around 15 shradh ceremonies every month besides puja and sacred thread ceremonies.
Says she, ââEarlier, I used to do only other rituals. But I decided to do the shradh ceremony only after no priest was available to do the shradh of my mother.ââ
Not only are women being trained in priesthood in large numbers, the long-lost tradition of performing the sacred thread ceremony for girls to give
-----------------------------------
Faizaband branch trains even Muslim girls (source: The Week, Dec 19th issue)
<!--QuoteBegin-mitradena+Dec 29 2004, 10:30 PM-->QUOTE(mitradena @ Dec 29 2004, 10:30 PM)<!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->
There is a whole checklist of things to take care of to ensure that the Pitrus are satisfied..
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If you can provide me this checklist that would be great.
Currently I have hired a priest to perform the sraddha and I am the yajaman.
If you have the list of things the yajaman must do, that would be great too. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Mitradena, I shall mail you the things I know from memory, and I will have to ask my father for the rest. As I am not fully aware of all the points covered in the Pirtu Karma.
You will have a hired vaidika brahmana performing the shrAddhA even if you are fully aware of the mantras. Tharpanams can be done individually, while Shraddha and the Bhojanam will usually involve other Vaidika Brahmanas. The exception being Apadh-dharma (Situations that are exceptions.)
As far as the yajaman is concerned, the night before the shrAddhA, both my parents do Phalaharam. No meals is taken till the brahmana bhojanam is complete. And everytime after the washroom, a bathe is required (before the karma is complete.)
The sesham (remaining) food from the Karma is not to be thrown out in garbage. It is either fed to a cow, or is buried.
(All these I restate from memory.) If anyone has better details, it would be great.
Here are two nice articles on Dr. Jayanta Dirghangi who lives in the U.S. and is a Nitya Agnihotrin :-
http://www.hindu.com/thehindu/2001/06/15/s...es/13150905.htm
http://www.hinduonnet.com/thehindu/thscrip.../09/13/&prd=fr&
Some excerpts from the articles:-
``Agnihotram, you must be aware, is a fire ritual that is performed twice a day (at sunrise and sunset). I have modified it to suit the conditions at my home in Memphis, Tennessee. A lot of smoke is generated during this sacrifice and in the U.S. this would mean a smoke alarm which would set the authorities on me everytime I perform this ritual. So I have installed a special earthenware kiln within which I arrange the three fire vessels and tools used in this sacrifice. I use special prefabricated wood which does not produce smoke when ignited. I perform puja to the Saligramams also. Because of my profession I cannot strictly perform Agnihotram at sunrise and at sunset but I do not have a choice.''
I am fascinated by Vaidika Yajnas.
I believe that the Namboothiris of kerala are the only community left in India who have kept the tradition of doing Somayajnas alive.
A Somayajnam was performed in 2003 in kerala :-
http://www.namboothiri.com/somayaagam/index.html
More details on the Vaidika Yaagam :-
http://www.namboothiri.com/articles/veda.htm
http://www.namboothiri.com/articles/yaagasaala.htm
A somayoga was performed in 2001 by Srotriya-s from Andhra and Karnataka.
01-15-2005, 12:57 AM
(This post was last modified: 01-15-2005, 01:01 AM by Sunder.)
Check out Athirathram : http://www.athirathram.org/
An EXCELLENT resource about the Yagna. Check out the pictures.. Rare ones, and nostalgic scenes from our past.
In 1975, the Agnichayana, a 3000-year-old ritual, the longest and the oldest surviving ritual of mankind, was performed at Panjal in Kerala, India. The 12- day ritual was performed by Namboothiri Brahmins of Kerala. Long considered extinct and never witnessed by outsiders, the ceremonies require the participation of seventeen priests, preceded by several months of preparation and rehearsals.
This performance was instigated by the Indologist Dr. Frits Staal of the University of California and by Mr. Robert Gardner, with support from several international agencies.
The two Vedic Scholars primarily responsible for the 1975 performance were Brahmasree Muttathukattu Mammunnu Itti Ravi (undisputed master of the Jaiminiya Samaveda) and Brahmasree Cherumukku Vaidikan Vallabhan Somayajipad or CV (occupies a central position in the ritual realm of the Rgveda and Yajurveda).
From the same link above. a news clipping from the Hindu.
<b>"Miraculous events ended on April 24th 1975 "</b>
Heavy rain after Yagam
Trichur, April 25
The 12-day "Athirathra yagna" ended at Panjal, 30 Kms from here, on Thursday with the completion of all the rites and burning of the yagnasala. (sheds).
An hour later, a heavy downpour fell over the area which the sponsors claimed was true to tradition and marked the "success" of the yagna. Those present at the concluding rites claimed that a "garuda"(eagle) flew over the yagnasala as it was set on fire, in confirmation of another traditional belief.
Trichur town too had a heavy shower last evening.
--The Hindu : Indiaâs leading National Daily
(I remember sometime around May 1990, there was an Athiratram performed, and on May 9th, in the midst of summer) there was a heavy torrent of rains in all of south India that it almost flooded nellore and other parts of Andhra.
Agnistoma in Ramayana.
agniSTomaadibhiH yaj~naiH iSTavaan aapta dakshiNaiH |
tasya ayam puurvajaH putro raamo naama janaiH shrutaH || 4-4-8
8. agniSToma aadibhiH= agniStoma, and the like; yaj~naiH= with rituals; iSTavaan= performed; aapta dakshiNaiH= given are, the charities [liberal charities are given in rituals by him]; tasya= his; ayam= this one; puurvajaH putraH= eldest, son; Rama; naama janaiH shrutaH= by name, by people, heard [known.]
"And he, King Dasharatha who performed rituals agniSToma and the like Vedic rituals wherein he donated liberally, and this one is his eldest son, and he is renowned among people by the name of Rama... [4-4-8]
This actually belongs to the Castes and Reforms topic in which Pathma was mentioning that "Dalits" should learn vedas to "replace" Brahmanas.
Can a new Brahmin Caste be Created ?
The fact that aupasana is to performed by all castes gives rise to the questions : "Why only aupasana? Why should not all castes have the right to learn the Vedas, chant the Gayatri and perform sacrifices?". On the other hand, we have atheists who want the Vedas to be consigned to the flames and the idols of Gods like Ganesa to be broken and, on the other, we have people calling themselves reformist who want to extend to all the right to perform Vedic rites.
Do I not lamblaste Brahmins for having become a degenerated class? Taking a cue from this the reformers argue: "After all, it is the Brahmin who has become debased and it is he who has debased others also. Now, when new life is being breathed into the Vedic dharma, why should Brahmins alone be given the right to it, Brahmins who have failed in their duty? All those castes that believe that the Vedas and Vedic works are essential to the well-being of mankind must be enabled to learn the Vedas and perform Vedic rites. All of them must have the right to wear the sacred thread and learn the scriptures."
Organisations like the Arya Samaj have accepted the right of all to learn the Vedas and perform sacrifices. Here and there a Subramanya Bharati or someone like him imparts Brahmopadesa to a Pancama. The reformists ask why the Vedas cannot be made common to all.
This is not acceptable in the least. I am a representative and spokesman of the sastras. It is my duty to state that this (making Vedic dharma common to all castes) is not permitted by the sages who created the sastras and assigned the duties special to each caste. They (the sages) were known for their spirit of sacrifices and impartiality and they had no interest other than the happiness of mankind.
A man sins in two ways. If he forsakes his hereditary karma, he commits one kind of sin-such a man is called a "karma-bhrasta". But if he forsakes his karma and takes up the karma of another (that is if he practices the religious customs and duties of another caste) he becomes a "karmantara-pravista". According to the sastras he is guilty of a greater offence than the karma-bhrasta.
Why? There are two reasons.
An individual who forsakes his karma because he believes that varna dharma itself is meaningless may be said to act out of conviction and he may be said to be obeying his conscience. In his action we may find some justification. But, in the matter of the sastras, the question is not one of conscience. The question is: what about the man opts for the customs and rites of others? He does so because he believes that the customs and rites to which he is born are not as good those of the latter. To think that one vocation or one type of work is inferior to another, or superior to it, is not in keeping with modern ideas of socialism and the principle of dignity of labour. At the same time, it is not also in accord with the sastras. The karma-bhrasta who discards all varna dharma believes that the sages created a system not suitable to the times. He does not, however, think that they were partial to some castes. But not so the karmantara-pravista who thinks that the sages were partial. He chooses another man's dharma because he believes that it is better for his inner advancement than his hereditary calling and dharma. His action implies that the sages practised deception by creation the division of varnas. So his offence is greater.
It is true that Brahmins have gone astray. But what is the meaning of creating a new class of Brahmins? It amounts to saying, "He (the Brahmin) has forsaken his dharma. Now I will take it over." To take up another man's dharma, apart from forsaking one's own dharma is a grave offence, worse than nearly giving up one's own dharma. I have stated repeatedly that all karma has only one purpose, that of destroying one's ego-sense, ahamkara. What is the foundation of varna dharma? It is one's willingness to follow the vocation and dharma that belong to one by hereditary without any consideration of one's likes and dislikes.
Such willingness is based on the realisation that the vocation and dharma that have come to us are according to the will of Isvara, that they are manifested through the Vedas and sastras and that to practise them is to destroy our ego.
What does it mean to create a new caste, to create new Brahmins? However good the intention behind such a process may be- even if it be the desire that Vedic works must be performed and that the sound of the Vedas must fill the air - the ego-consciousness will obtrude in it like the nut jutting out from a cashew fruit.
Apart from this, however much you talk of equality and rationalism, the newly created Brahmins will suffer from an inferiority complex and will be racked by doubts as to whether they can practise their new dharma and whether they can chant the mantras and practise the rites in the same manner as people who are Brahmins by birth.
The Arya Samaj and other reformist organisations have for their part abolished caste and given everybody the right to learn Vedas. Then how is it that non-Brahmins have not joined these organisations in large numbers or taken to the study of the Vedas? One important reason is a certain hesitation in joining anything new. Another, equally important, is that people believe that it is one thing to become an atheist but quite another for the old Vedic customs to be changed.
So, though a couple of reformers may start a movement to through open Vedic learning to everybody, only four or five percent of the people will join them. The remaining 95 percent or so will continue to be in the old Hindu set-up. Also the few who join the new caste will have at heart a sense of fear and a feeling of inferiority. They will keep doubting whether their actions will yield the desired result. If that be so, how will their minds be pure? It is not only the ego-sense that makes the mind impure but fear, the feeling of inferiority and being racked by doubts. Rites performed in such a frame of mind will not serve the purpose of creating happiness in the world. Besides, members of the new caste are likely to develop conceited thinking that they are doing what Brahmins by birth ceased to do or could not do - there will a spirit of challenge in their action. When they practise what others were practising [or were expected to practise ] there will naturally be a desire on their part to make an exhibition of it. There will no sincerity in their actions. All told, neither they nor the world will benefit from their works.
We must recognise facts for facts and not be carried away by emotions. Have I not you about the power of the sound of the Vedas? This sound is not produced easily by everybody in the right manner. What I say applies not only to the sound of Vedas or the Vedic language but also to other languages and their sound. Take the case of German or Urdu. Some words in these two languages are tongue-twisting. Telugu is spoken in our neighbourhood but we find it difficult to vocalise some of its sounds. Suppose a German child or a Muslim or Telugu child were to be born in Tamil Nadu. These children would be able to pronounce such words easily -that is German, Urdu or Telugu as the case may be- because to them they would come naturally.
However vehemently you may deny the existence of hereditary factors, you find evidence of the same every day in all spheres. Those who have been the custodians of the Vedas all these centuries will find it easy to learn and chant the Vedas despite the present gap of two or three generations in their tradition. The same cannot be said of other communities. The mantras will serve no purpose if they are wrongly enunciated. However well-intentioned the new class of people studying the Vedas maybe, their efforts will not be fruitful.
Another point. Here we have a class of people born into a dharma and practising it hereditarily for thousands of years and acquiring in the process certain qualities. If such people forsake that dharma, how would you expect others who are strangers to it to take their place especially in the present new circumstances.
There are today two unfortunate developments in the country. One is that of the Brahmins giving up Vedic learning and Vedic works and the second that of other communities wanting to practise the Vedic dharma. It is difficult to say which of the two is worse. Not performing the duty that belongs to us by birth is an offence. But, as the Lord says in the Gita, to take up the duty of another is a greater offence.
"Svadharme nidhaman sreyo paradharmo bhayavahah". It is better to die within the sphere of one's own duty than to take up another's duty. Perilous and fearful is the duty of other men. Since death is certain anyway, if we carry out the duty that is properly ours there will be no rebirth for us. What do we mean by saying that another man's dharma is fearful? If a person practises another man's dharma he will be pushed into hell. Suppose such a man does not believe in a certain place called hell, we may then take it that he will suffer infernal sorrow in this or next birth. Apart from this, not being an atheist, he will be eaten up by the fear that he is perhaps committing a sin by pursuing another man's dharma. Were he not a non-believer he would not have faith in the Vedas and sastras and would not in the first place take up the Brahmin's vocation. So the one who has faith in the Vedas would be constantly nagged by the worry: "The sastras proclaim that the sound of the Vedas will bring good to the world. But the same sastras proclaim, don't they, that the pursuit of another man's dharma is fearful? "
The point to noted is that if you believe in the sastras you must believe in them fully. If you are an atheist you could of course reject all of them. But to make a show of being very clever and twist the sastras as you like, accepting some parts or rejecting or changing some others, is an offence more grave than that of being an atheist. To think that Mother Veda should dance to our tune is also a great offence. Learning the Vedas in such an attitude is tantamount to ridiculing them.
I am not angry with reformists, nor do I suspect their motives. They go wrong because of their ignorance or thoughtlessness. If they wish to pull down the fence to go to the other side, they must think of the possibility of the few still remaining there walking over to this side.
If people truly feel that their present vocation is as honourable as the practice of Vedic dharma, they will not think of taking up some calling other than their own. "Brahmins have forsaken the Vedas. So the world is not filled with the sound of the Vedas which is so essential to its well-being. To fill this vacuum a new Brahmin class must be created. "Those who want to take the place of the Brahmins, who are traditionally duty-bound to follow the Vedic dharma, will have a feeling of conceit, not to speak of a spirit of challenge and a sense of inferiority also. If you really want to work for the goal of making the Vedas a living reality again, your efforts must be directed towards turning those who were engaged in the preservation of the Vedic heritage back to the dharma to which they hereditarily belong.
If I criticise Brahmins it is not because I feel that they cannot be corrected or that I have washed my hands of them. Nor do I feel that Brahmins alone as a caste are responsible for all ills of today. If I administer them a reproof now and then for their having given up their dharma during Islamic and British rule and for being lured today by the glitter of modern civilization, it does not mean that they are to be wholly blamed for everything. Placed as they are in today's circumstances any caste or class would have done the same. Those who find them guilty now think that they would acquit themselves better if they were in their place. But they too would have been compelled to make the same mistakes by the force of circumstances. If people hereditarily engaged in intellectual pursuits find themselves unable to apply their minds to Atmic matters and instead find themselves in involved in mundane affairs, it means a topsy turvy slide-down.
I do not justify such behaviour nor the descent into worldly affairs from the heights of spirituality. Nowadays reformists try to justify even prostitution on psychological grounds. Similarly, I wish to point out that they is a psychological explanation for the degeneration of Brahmins also. If I criticise Brahmins, it does not mean that others should join in the attack, thinking that they (the Brahmins) alone are worthless people. It is the duty of these others to make Brahmins worthy of their caste. After all, during the past forty or fifty years, Brahmins have been an easy target of attack and ridicule. How silently they have suffered all this, also the humiliation at the hands of their detractors. Until some four or five generations ago, Brahmins were the guardians of all our Atmic wealth, all our arts. Considering this, is it not the duty of others to bring them back to the practise of their true dharma? They must be tactfully reminded of the high dharma they had once pursued and the spirit of sacrifice for which they were known.
It is likely that in the past a few ignorant Brahmins treated other communities harshly. This is no reason why their descendants today should pay for it and be maligned and harassed in a spirit of vengefulness. It must also be borne in the mind that Brahmins themselves have been in the forefront in the fight against "the old unjust practices" and in giving other communities a high place in society. So there is no point in fuelling the flames of hatred. Nor can it be claimed truthfully that such hatred is part of "Tamil culture".
Unfortunately, what Brahmins did in the name of reforms resulted in the wrong kind of equality for, instead of raising people belonging to the lower strata to a higher level, it had the effect of bringing the upper classes downward. Equality can be of two types: in the first all occupy a high level in society; in the other all occupy a low level. To carry a load uphill is difficult but it is easy to push it down. Quality has suffered in the attempt to create equality. It is not desirable to have that kind of equality in which everyone does the same kind of work. Nor should it be thought that they is no equality in a system in which the various vocations, the various types of work, are divided among different groups of people. I have already spoken a great deal on the subject. Our endeavour must be to create unity in diversity, nor uniformity.
It is important to remember that neither hatred of Brahmins nor dislike of Sanskrit has ever been a part of Tamil culture and civilization. Sanskrit is the repository of Atmic and religious sastras, a storehouse of poetry and works on arts. Everyone must learn to regard it as "our own language". The need for the existence of "Brahmanya" as a separate entity must be recognised. This is essential to the preservation of the Vedas, the performance of sacrifices, etc, whose purpose is the good of mankind. Today the Vedas, the Upanisads and so on are available in print. Anybody can read them and try to understand them. But everybody need not learn to chant the Vedas; it takes many years to do so. Everybody need not also perform sacrifices.
<b>There ought to be an element of humility on the part of those who wish to carry out reforms; there must be sincerity of purpose.</b> Then no need will arise to go contrary to the sastras.
>It is difficult to say which of the two is worse. Not performing the duty that belongs to us by birth is an >offence. But, as the Lord says in the Gita, to take up the duty of another is a greater offence.
Sundar ji,
Is it a fact that the Gita and the Upanishads say that the duty is decided by birth? I think
lot of people would not agree with the position that varna is determined by birth and varna is not determined by birth then duty is also not determined by birth. Yudhisthira who presumably knew Krishna would not agree that varna is determined by birth. It seems to me that varna is determined by character. I give below the relevant passage in the Mahabharata.
*******************************************************
Yudhisthira's definition of Brahmana and Sudra
*******************************************************
The serpent said," O Yudhisthira, say - Who is a Brahmana and what should be
known? .."
Yudhisthira said," O foremost of serpents, he, it is asserted by the wise, in
whom are seen truth, charity, forgiveness, good conduct, benevolence,
observance of the rites of his order, and mercy is a Brahmana. And, O serpent,
that which should be known is even the supreme Brahma, in which is neither
happiness nor misery ---- and attaining which beings are not affected with
misery; what is thy opinion?"
The serpent said," O Yudhisthira, truth, charity, forgiveness, benevolence,
benighnity, kindness and the Veda which worketh the benefit of the four orders
, which is the authority in matters of religion and which is true, are seen
even in the Sudra. As regards the object to be known and which thou allegest
is without both happiness and misery, I do not see any such that is devoid of
these."
Yudhisthira said," Those characteristics that are present in a Sudra do not
exist in a Brahmana; nor do those that are in a Brahmana exist in a Sudra.
AND A SUDRA IS NOT A SUDRA BY BIRTH ALONE - NOR A BRAHMANA IS BRAHMANA BY
BIRTH ALONE. He, it is said by the wise, in whom are seen those virtues is a
Brahmana. And people term him a Sudra in whom qualities do not exist, even
though he be a Brahmana by birth. And again, as for thy assertion that the
object be known (as asserted by me) doth not exist, because nothing exists
that is devoid of both (happiness and misery), such indeed is the opinion, O
serpent, that nothing exists that is without (them) both. But as in cold, heat
doth not exist, nor in heat, cold, so there can not exist an object in which
both (happiness and misery) can not exist?"
The serpent said, "O king, if thou recognize him as a Brahmana by
characteristics, then, O long-lived one, the distinction of caste becometh
futile as long as conduct doth not come into play."
Yudhisthira said, " In human society, O mighty and highly intelligent serpent,
it is difficult to ascertain one's caste, because of promiscuous intercourse
among the four orders. This is my opinion. Men belonging to all orders
(promiscuously) begat offspring upon women of all the orders. And of men,
speech, sexual intercourse, birth and death are common. And to this the Rishis
have borne testimony by using as the beginning of a sacrifice such expressions
as -- of what caste server may be, we celebrate the sacrifice. Therefore,
those that are wise have asserted that CHARACTER IS THE CHIEF ESSENTIAL
REQUISITE. .... WHATSOEVER NOW CONFORMS TO THE RULES OF PURE AND VIRTOUS
CONDUCT, HIM HAVE I, ERE NOW, DESIGNATED AS A BRAHMANA." (Aranya Parva CLXXIX)
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Is it a fact that the Gita and the Upanishads say that the duty is decided by birth?<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Let us see if it does... Initially I used to be quoting the Gita verses "Chathur Varnyam Mayaa Shrushta GUNA KARMA Vibhagasha:" i.e. The Varnas are classified based on Guna and Karma (Competence and Profession.) The Rudra Prashnam also sings praise of all varnas as Divine. It says "Kulaalebhyo, Karmaarebhyasha vo namah", "Punjishta" (Chicken thief), and Nishadha (night robber) are also the Lord Himself, the Carpenter, Ratha maker, potter, dog, dog-owner/hunter are all Divine. The Vedic praise is quite astounding here. Then something went seriously wrong (or was it wrong?)
But, in the Brahma Sutras, Samanvaya Adhyaya (First Volume), third chapter, the nineth topic is called APASHUDRADHIKARANAM. Here the topic is "Vedas should not be given to Shudras". Here, the Purvapakshi (opponent) says that Shudra is not by birth but only by nature. He quotes Raikva calling Janasruthi as "Rae Shudra". Acharya Sri Shankara defends this and says Vedas should not be given to a Shudra by BIRTH. People like Vidura (who is the son of a Dasi) and others can attain liberation by study of Smrithis, Itihasa/Puranas.
Here is the link for Apasudradhikaranam: http://www.swami-krishnananda.org/bs_1/1-3-09.html
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->AND A SUDRA IS NOT A SUDRA BY BIRTH ALONE - NOR A BRAHMANA IS BRAHMANA BY BIRTH ALONE.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The statement is consistent. The key word is ALONE. (I am not professing my views of an unequal society. I am stating the views of the Shruthi - that no profession is higher or lower than the other, the work of a Brahmana is important for a Brahmana, and the work of a Vaishya is equally important as that of a Potter, or Arrow-maker.) The Smrithi Prasthana, and the Brahma Sutras maintain this.
In the PARAMAARTHIKA level, the question of Varna or Jathi does not arise, as it is Chidananda Roopa Shivoham. But on the Vyavaharika level it does matter.
<b>ABOUT VIDHURA:</b> An iteresting thing about Vidhura is that he was highly capable of understanding the Vedas. Vidhura was considered a Shudra as he was born of a Dasi <b>and Vedavyasa - the compiler of Vedas.</b> Yet he was not an adhikari for Vedic learning. On the other hand, Vyaasa was the <b>son of a Fisher-woman</b> and my great-grand-uncle Parashara. Both Vyasa and Vidhura had non-brahmin mothers who were not legally married to their genetic fathers. Both were born of Brahma-gnanis. Yet one was the compiler of vedas, and the other was not entitled to learn it.. <!--emo& --><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo--><!--emo& --><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo--> This is a perplexing situation even for me to figure out. I tried posing this to a Swami Ishwarananda of Chinmaya mission 2 days ago. The answer I got was the same old defence "That was a different age, and this is a different age. Thus these rules are not applicable now." My doubt continues... Can you clarify or correct my doubt ?
Sundar ji,
Is Acharya Shankara's view (or for that matter the views of other Acharya's) compatible with the view expressed in the Mahabharata, "that people term him a Sudra in whom qualities do not exist, even
though he be a Brahmana by birth."? Just notice the reply of the serpent:
The serpent said, "O king, if thou recognize him as a Brahmana by
characteristics, then, O long-lived one, the distinction of caste becometh
futile as long as conduct doth not come into play."
Yudhisthira said, " that CHARACTER IS THE CHIEF ESSENTIAL
REQUISITE. .... WHATSOEVER NOW CONFORMS TO THE RULES OF PURE AND VIRTOUS
CONDUCT, HIM HAVE I, ERE NOW, DESIGNATED AS A BRAHMANA." is highly significant.
It seems to me that the views expressed by the Acharyas are not in agreement with the view expressed in the Mahabharata. You have raised the interesting issue about the different treatment accorded to Dwaipayan Vyasa and Vidura. You are entirely right that the treatment of Vyasa and Vidura are not consistent. I think this differential and inconsistent treatment is a clear sign that birth based Varna system is not a workable system. After all Dhritarastra, Pandu and Vidura were all sired by Vyasa whose mother was a fisherwoman. So on what ground are the Pandavas or the Kauravas Kshatriya by birth? Mahabharata seems to me to be saying that conduct should be used as the basis for a Varna system.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->2005-Dec-30
http://www.hindunet.com/onps/showarticle.p...=6&ag=5&a=21144
<b>Harijans in Kota are working as priests </b>
JAIPUR,DECEMBER 30: Facing upper caste Brahmin priests' refusal to perform rituals for them on auspicious occasions, Harijans in Kota have found a way out for themselves. Some of them have trained themselves to perform Hindu rituals and are working as priests for the community.
Till a decade back, Harijans in the Rajasthan district had to perform auspicious work without the services of Brahmin priests. Even marriages were performed without priests and Harijan couples used to walk around the sacred fire in the presence of the Samaj Guru. But then a Harijan, Nathulal Verma, decided to learn the Hindu Karamkands and cater to the needs of his community. <b>He learned the rites and rituals from a local priest associated with the Arya Samaj.</b>
Once Verma started working as a priest, others followed his example. At present, there are close to a dozen Harijan priests in the city and they have encouraged others to take up priesthood as a profession. Now, these trained Harijan priests proudly conduct marriages and other auspicious actions for their community. Though the acceptability of the Harijan priests is still limited to their community and to some other scheduled castes, their taking up the job has been a great relief to castes traditionally considered untouchable.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
One can uphold Shâstrika integrity and still appoint any person as a BrâhmaNa. Anyone displaying Brahmanya, and to trying to understand Brahman and teach and stimulate Brahman in each person (including in himself), is worthy to be called a BrâhmaNa.
These and other characteristics are needed for any initiated, These are wanting in many (non-performing) BrâhmaNas too. Quality, proper expression and integrity are more important than birth. A person calling himself a carpenter's son is not accepted professionally as a carpenter as long as he has two left hands so-to-say or not interested in that profession. A pupil of that carpenter displaying his talents is rather a carpenter.
Of course a son of a carpenter has the advantage of examples and practice at home, which puts him some steps ahead of new aspirants.
Thus, there are certain conditions attached to a function, which counts for anyone with the same criterion and judgement.
09-05-2006, 07:42 AM
(This post was last modified: 09-05-2006, 07:45 AM by Bodhi.)
Very well said by ishwa.
Just see a bright example from Chhandogya Upanishad:
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Once upon a time Satyakama Jabala addressed his mother Jabala, âMother, I desire to live the life of a brahmacharin student of sacred knowledge in the teacherâs house. Of what lineage am I ?â
She said to him, âMy child, I do not know of what lineage you are. I, who was engaged in many works and in attending on others, got you in my youth. Having been such I could not know of what lineage you are. However, I am Jabala by name and you are named Satyakama. So you speak of yourself only as Satyakama Jabala.â
He went to Haridrumata Gautama and said, âI desire to live under you, revered sir, as a Brahmacharin; may I approach your venerable self (for the same) ?â
Gautama asked him, âDear boy, of what lineage are you ?â He replied, âSir, I do not know of what lineage I am. I asked my mother; she replied, âI, who was engaged in many works and in attending on others, got you in my youth. Having been such, I could not know of what lineage you are. However, I am Jabala by name and you are named Satyakamaâ. So, sir, I am Satyakama Jabala.â
<span style='color:red'>The teacher said to him, âNo one who is not a Brahmana can speak thus. Dear boy, bring the sacrificial fuel, I shall initiate you as a Brahmacharin, for you have not deviated from truthâ.</span>
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This shows that sages did not insist upon the Varna of birth and lineage etc, but rather looked at the guNa and prakRti of the candidate and accordingly accepted them. This student Satyakama Jabala would indeed prove a great sage himself.
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