California Textbooks - 2

[Guest]

No victory. Bankrupt CA govt gave money through goodness of their heart?

[G.Subramaniam]

<!--QuoteBegin-Viren+Jun 7 2009, 06:48 PM-->QUOTE(Viren @ Jun 7 2009, 06:48 PM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->No victory. Bankrupt CA govt gave money through goodness of their heart?
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That is the unwritten rule among lawyers
Even the losing party gets a scrap

$200K is nothing

If for example they had gotten $200 mil, that would mean something

I think capeem took its supporters for a ride
I do support their effort, but IMHO, they did over-raised expectations
among the donors

[Guest]

GS: For someone who's so numbers inclined, I'm surprised at your comments. For $200M CAPEEM (or anyone) could have had Arnold Schwarzenegger himself to clean their restrooms. Let's step in real world and not forum world where it's easy to shoot breeze. Getting even a dime from even rookie lawyer is feat in itself let alone getting $175K from a well oiled infantry of professional lawyers. In most legal cases the losing party agrees to pay $1 to acknowledge guilt/wrong-doing while closing so that tomorrow they don't come back arguing otherwise. Since CA board won't comment in forums, it's proxy who have no culpability will spin it any way they want it.

Could you site instance where CAPEEM told you that they are going to get so and so from this case? I have dealt with them closely and I was never promised anything out of ordinary. Besides I lent them my support without reservations or conditions. Anything less would be disingenuous.

[Bodhi]

<!--QuoteBegin-Viren+Jun 8 2009, 04:30 AM-->QUOTE(Viren @ Jun 8 2009, 04:30 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->Could you site instance where CAPEEM told you that they are going to get so and so from this case?
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VirenJi, their stated objective of the lawsuit:

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->The objectives of CAPEEM's lawsuit are the following:

To work towards improving the quality and factual accuracy of Grade 6 social studies
To end the selective discrimination against Hinduism in textbooks
To protect the civil rights of Hindu children
To ensure that Hindu children are not alienated from their traditions as a result of negative portrayals of their religion
To remove colonial stereotypes and prejudices regarding Hinduism from Grade 6 textbooks
To present the positive aspects of Hinduism so that Hindu children can be proud of their heritage

http://www.capeem.org/faq.php<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

I wonder howmany of the above objectives did the lawsuit meet.

To sympathetic eyes, what appears astonishing is the audacity of the claimants of even this outcome as victory. By that token even BJP/NDA, otherwise biting dust, can claim that they were not dead but only relaxing in shavAsana after a thundering victory.

At least, the leaders have got to be honest (and accountable, transparent etc) to their supporters in admitting the real outcome. Only if they admit that we lost the case can we learn right? Else we shall repeat the same mistakes and keep "winning" similar "victories".

[acharya]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Californian_H...ook_controversy

Are you guys keep arguing here or will try to put more effort so that the goal is reached.

What is the objective of the people who are participating.

[Guest]

came via email
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->  "Hello All,

I have done some small work for CAPEEM last year. I heard that this reporter
is a very biased one. So the news report is not accurate.

I heard that CAPEEM might come out with a press release in some time. So I
request all of you to just wait till that.

My personal opinion: <b>This case is a decent victory for Hindus. No
government department comes to a settlement unless they have figured out that it
is not going for them.</b>

Before calling it a "disaster", "humiliation",
"unprofessionally conducted case", or before taking opinions from people who
are now economical with truth, please speak/communicate to CAPEEM.

Thanks,
Bharath"
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

[Bodhi]

<!--QuoteBegin-acharya+Jun 8 2009, 11:30 AM-->QUOTE(acharya @ Jun 8 2009, 11:30 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->Are you guys keep arguing here or will try to put more effort so that the goal is reached.
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Sure if more "effort" is needed let us do that, but dont we need to know what was lacking in the effort so far? Are we sure that we have come down the right path so far? Are we sure that the "course" will take us to the "goal", and whether a course-correction is needed? Are we sure that the navigators have the right visibility to the waters, and the right people are doing the navigation? Are we even sure of where we stand, because some are calling it a victory already, although to more suspicious eyes it does not look like one. Will wait.

[acharya]

http://religionclause.blogspot.com/2009/06...s-textbook.html

http://www.sacbee.com/news/story/1923828.html

[acharya]

<!--QuoteBegin-Bodhi+Jun 7 2009, 06:11 PM-->QUOTE(Bodhi @ Jun 7 2009, 06:11 PM)<!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-acharya+Jun 8 2009, 11:30 AM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(acharya @ Jun 8 2009, 11:30 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->Are you guys keep arguing here or will try to put more effort so that the goal is reached.
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Sure if more "effort" is needed let us do that, but dont we need to know what was lacking in the effort so far? Are we sure that we have come down the right path so far? Are we sure that the "course" will take us to the "goal", and whether a course-correction is needed? Are we sure that the navigators have the right visibility to the waters, and the right people are doing the navigation? Are we even sure of where we stand, because some are calling it a victory already, although to more suspicious eyes it does not look like one. Will wait.
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Talk in private or offline.

[acharya]

http://www.hinduismtoday.com/modules/smart...php?itemid=1578

Because there are many issues affecting Hinduism today, the religion is hanging on a small thread. Many young Hindus shy away from their religion and let others, who are extremely ignorant of the realities of the religion, influence their opinions on Hinduism. Since those youth are left with few options to find answers to their questions, some find their initial love of the religion into hatred. It is these Hindus who eventually malign the religion in a way that shapes others' views as well. And, since there is no one to fight these slanders in a united way, these lies become the truth. American Hindus should especially be aware of this fact, since the American academic community's views on Hinduism are regarded as the correct way Hinduism should be taught and interpreted. In essence, the diverse problems facing Hinduism cause a domino effect, creating a rift in the minds of young Hindus and distancing them from their true roots. As the old saying goes, united we stand, divided we fall. As of today, this plague is spreading. With many young Hindus on opposite sides, the fight to create a respectful and honest view of Hinduism will be sidetracked, with Hindus fighting amongst ourselves while those invested in the demise of Hinduism--radical Christians and Muslims--continue to slander the religion.

While it seems that we are disappointed with your leadership, this is untrue. We are dissatisfied with the results that have happened over the last few years. We bring these topics to light to educate and raise awareness to you from our point of view. Hinduism must continue. It starts with you. Leave our generation a platform to build on. Our gratitude for such a contribution would be beyond the power of words to express.

[acharya]

Steve wrote:

> Story in today's Telegraph (Calcutta) on the deepened Hindutva
> cleansing being undertaken by the UPA government, now that they
> handily trounced the rightwing in the recent Indian elections.
>
> We like the concluding lines of the story:

http://tinyurl.com/ommwuq
"Sources said with a renewed mandate, the UPA government was expected to look at
the way NDA appointees [the coalition headed by the BJP] to cultural
institutions allegedly tweaked evidence to suit the RSS's version of history.
For example, in 2000, the National Museum in its catalogue for a new Harappan
gallery, had endorsed the Sangh's claim that the Harappan and Vedic
civilisations were one and the same. The idea, sources said, was to demonstrate
the 'indigenity' of Hinduism vis-a-vis Islam and Christianity. The claim was
based on a letter written by N.S. Rajaram who had co-authored a book, _The
Deciphered Indus Script_."

For the background of this story, see the articles from, respectively,
_Frontline_ and the _Times of India_ linked to at

http://www.flonnet.com/fl1723/17231180.htm

and

http://indus.usask.ca/~jamali/sindh/sindh-...r/msg00411.html

The two articles analyse the role played by some well-known
"Vedic-Harappa-Theory"-oriented Indian archaeogists such as R.S. Bisht (one of
the co-authors of the introductory textual panel of the above mentioned gallery
on the Harappan civilisation at the National Museum in Delhi), S.P. Gupta (then
exerting authority over National Museum publications), and B.B. Lal (who,
acccording to National Museum sources, had reportedly suggested that the gallery
be called by the politically-charged term "The Indus-Saraswati Civilization").
The _Times of India_ article also gives an account of the letter written by N.S.
Rajaram (see above).

The controversial catalogue of this National Museum gallery published in 2000
surreptitiously endorsed the claim that the Harappan civilisation and Vedic
culture were one and the same, for instance, by designating one of the recovered
Harappan stone objects as a "Shiva-linga", by labelling various Harappan human
figurines as "Yoga practitioners", or by describing the remnants of certain
Harappan clay ovens and pits that have been unearthed as (Vedic-like) "fire
altars".

Regards,
Francesco

Thanks for helping us out in India, Steve....
Prem

--- On Fri, 6/5/09, Steve Farmer <saf@...> wrote:


From: Steve Farmer <saf@...>
Subject: Re: [Indo-Eurasia] The Indian government continues its Hindutva
cleansing
To: Indo-Eurasian_research@yahoogroups.com
Cc: "Steve Farmer" <saf@...>
Date: Friday, June 5, 2009, 11:06 PM
Sorry -- I forgot to put in the link to the front-page story in the
Telegraph:

http://www.telegrap hindia.com/ 1090605/jsp/ frontpage/ story_11066538. jsp
tinyurl:
http://tinyurl. com/ommwuq

Steve

On Jun 5, 2009, at 2:54 PM, Steve Farmer wrote:

> Story in today's Telegraph (Calcutta) on the deepened Hindutva
> cleansing being undertaken by the UPA government, now that they
> handily trounced the rightwing in the recent Indian elections.
>
> We like the concluding lines of the story -- especially gratifying
> coming
> the day after the CAPEEM lawsuit was "dismissed with prejudice" in the
> US -- ending the California textbook case for all time. A lot of us on
> the List spent a lot of time on that case.
>
> It's nice, in any event, to see Hindutva on the wane simultaneously in
> India *and* the West. :^)
>
>> Sources said with a renewed mandate, the UPA government was
>> expected to look at the way NDA appointees [the coalition headed by
>> the BJP] to cultural institutions allegedly tweaked evidence to
>> suit the RSS’s version of history.
>>
>> For example, in 2000, the National Museum in its catalogue for a
>> new Harappan gallery, had endorsed the Sangh’s claim that the
>> Harappan and Vedic civilisations were one and the same. The idea,
>> sources said, was to demonstrate the “indigenity” of Hinduism vis-à -
>> vis Islam and Christianity.
>>
>> The claim was based on a letter written by N.S. Rajaram who had co-
>> authored a book, The Deciphered Indus Script. The book was debunked
>> by well-known Indologist Michael Witzel and comparative historian
>> Steve Farmer.

[Guest]

<!--QuoteBegin-G.Subramaniam+Jun 7 2009, 07:22 PM-->QUOTE(G.Subramaniam @ Jun 7 2009, 07:22 PM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->The capeem lawyer makes a statement that he won on NO points at all

--<b>
When asked if it was true that his client gained nothing, Seattle attorney Venkat Balasubramani said, "That's one way of looking at it."</b>
---
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I wouldn't put too much stock in what that ambulance chaser says. Yes, that's the term I used for him, given the fact the case is over and he'll never be on any further such cases. One gets what one pays for - CAPEEM worked with what they had. Had Newdow been there since inception things would have been a lot different.

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Every few months, ( if you read this thread )
CAPEEM put out statements saying significant victory, breakthrough ruling etc<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, please read the entire thread again on their statements. At every step of the way they had to fight tooth and nail and to prove and validate themselves and their argument. And they did with absolutely limited resources putting their personal lives, lives of their family on hold. Instead of bit of gratitude and for any gain however marginal it is, we have speculations on coulda-woulda-shoulda. How about a simple thanks to the guys/gals who did what they did.
Next time (and believe me for sure there'll be a next time, 49 other states if I exclude Iraq) I'd like to see arm-chair critics actually get up and do something.


Bodhji,
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->o sympathetic eyes, what appears astonishing is the audacity of the claimants of even this outcome as victory.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
On verdict, CAPEEM has made no claims of victory and like you am still waiting on their statement. If you have seen something from some other forum/group, let me know. I personally don't feel it's a defeat - few weeks/months back if you remember I had sent you a personal email.

[Guest]

It is REALLY sad that the "Hindu" Indian / Indian-American community is infested with these utter wastes of Oxygen as seen on this thread.

This is really tiresome.

Would the respected postors (and etc) who believe that the CAPEEM has not WON a historic victory for Hindus and for all Americans who believe in the Constitution, PLEASE list THEIR definition of "Victory"? I mean, very specifically, point by point. Let us then examine their definitions, and see how much sense they make.

Go on... let's see it. Fair opportunity. If they cannot, then they and their posts need to be consigned to the Pakistan Archives a.k.a. Witzel-Farmer "Head" quarters.

[Guest]

Wow! This quote just made my day. In fact it made the whole month! <!--emo&:roll--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/ROTFL.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='ROTFL.gif' /><!--endemo-->

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->That is the unwritten rule among lawyers
Even the losing party gets a scrap

$200K is nothing<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Hello, where do I file my case against Obama for bombing Pakistan, please? I could use the $200K that I get when the case is "dismissed with prejudice" as Steve Farmer and G. Subramanam have so kindly explained to me.

[Guest]

abdul_binmao,
Let me start filing case against my Doctors, Hospitals, Neighbors......... I don't have to work.

[Guest]

The local TV Weather Guy said it would rain yesterday and I had to carry my rain jacket ALL THE WAY to my car.

Time to sue. $200K.

[Guest]

Email from CAPEEM
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->PRESS RELEASE
Los Angeles
June 8, 2009

California Parents for the Equalization of Educational Materials (CAPEEM) and officials of the California Department of Education and the State Board of Education came to an agreement to settle the lawsuit that was filed in the United States District Court of Eastern District of California in 2006. CAPEEM had challenged the process by which religious claims were incorporated into the textbooks used by public school students, as well as some of the religious claims, themselves, which had made their way into those texts.

Believing that its points had been clearly understood by the defendants, CAPEEM opted not to prolong the litigation. The State entered into negotiations with CAPEEM and agreed to pay CAPEEM $175,000 in exchange for a voluntary dismissal of the lawsuit.

CAPEEM looks forward to participating in a review process free from biases, and to work with the State to approve textbooks that do not favor or disfavor any religious doctrines.

For more information contact:
Arvind Kumar
arvind  at capeem dot org
http://www.capeem.org
CAPEEM  is a 501©(3) tax exempt organization with tax ID 56-2565521. If you do not wish to receive updates from CAPEEM, please reply to this email with the word 'unsu<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

[G.Subramaniam]

In practical terms in plain english, can Capeem spell out what they achieved
and what they did not achieve

I fully realise that this was an underfunded legal fight

[Guest]

California education board to compensate Hindu-American parents

[dhu]

They managed to uncover the Dalit Freedom Network and Christian Missionary nexus. What were the other entities involved? Did they uncover any links between the Missionary apparatus and academics and state agencies? They should bring out these type of findings clearly for general public.