<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->I read the debate between Mudyji and SRoyji. It appears that the Durga-puja busting opinion comes from a very narrow urban experience. There are many festivals in the entire Gangetic belt, where public religious fests are also occasions for exotic and not-so-exotic activities being derided on the Durga Puja<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Commerialized Durga Puja is major source of funds for Commies, to dry up funds, put pressure to decommerialize Puja. People do Puja at home or temple.
Choke Commie funds. Other Hindu festivals are not yet controlled by commies. Even while visiting temple, give money to poor priest not to Government hundi. These government funds are used for Haj or renovating churches but no facilities to Hindu pilgrims.
In US, suddenly some universites started having commercial version of Holi, organizers are those who are directly involved in Narmada Andolan and Orissa fake rape episode. They collect funds to promote commie activities in India. Now there new target is Orissa. We are educating people to stay away from them. Some know groups are ASHA, FOSA, FOIL, VASHINAVA Center......
Choke funding. People should follow money.
brihaspati,
Now, you can understand what I an talking. Some will never get it.
<!--QuoteBegin-Mudy+May 31 2009, 10:57 PM-->QUOTE(Mudy @ May 31 2009, 10:57 PM)<!--QuoteEBegin--><b>Commerialized Durga Puja </b>is major source of funds for Commies, to dry up funds, put pressure to decommerialize Puja. People do Puja at home or temple.
Choke Commie funds. Other Hindu festivals are not yet controlled by commies. Even while visiting temple, give money to poor priest not to Government hundi. These government funds are used for Haj or renovating churches but no facilities to Hindu pilgrims.
In US, suddenly some universites started having commercial version of Holi, organizers are those who are directly involved in Narmada Andolan and Orissa fake rape episode. They collect funds to promote commie activities in India. Now there new target is Orissa. We are educating people to stay away from them. Some know groups are ASHA, FOSA, FOIL, VASHINAVA Center......
Choke funding. People should follow money.
brihaspati,
Now, you can understand what I an talking. Some will never get it.
[right][snapback]98106[/snapback][/right]
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I get that you are talking about what you see in US.
In any case you have not defined what is commercialized Durga Puja and where exactly you have seen it. Kolkata? Delhi? Somewhere in US?
Well renowned public Durga Puja's in India are actually conducted by temple trusts, very old families (traditional home Pujas but open to darshan by public), old organizations etc.
PS: I'm extremely saddened that this forum is all about NRI bullshit and poor desi folks like us get misled to join it with the thought of defending Hindu/India in cyberspace.
<!--QuoteBegin-Mudy+May 31 2009, 11:18 PM-->QUOTE(Mudy @ May 31 2009, 11:18 PM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->My experience is from Agra, Delhi and what My experience is from Agra, Delhi and what I wrote is from where I lived. In US or in India or rest or world never went to any commercialized religious events as a principle.
But I think for you, its personal hatred is paramount.
[right][snapback]98110[/snapback][/right]
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Where in Delhi and in which Puja in Delhi (provide locality) you saw offending activity?
<!--QuoteBegin-sroy+May 31 2009, 11:11 PM-->QUOTE(sroy @ May 31 2009, 11:11 PM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->I get that you are talking about what you see in US.
In any case you have not defined what is commercialized Durga Puja and where exactly you have seen it.<b> Kolkata? Delhi? Somewhere in US</b>?
Well renowned public Durga Puja's in India are actually conducted by temple trusts, very old families (traditional home Pujas but open to darshan by public), old organizations etc.
PS: I'm extremely saddened that this forum is all about <b>NRI bullshit </b>and <b>poor desi folks </b>like us get misled to join it with the thought of defending Hindu/India in cyberspace.
[right][snapback]98109[/snapback][/right]
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
My experience is from Agra, Delhi and what I wrote is from where I lived. In US or in India or rest or world never went to any commercialized religious events as a principle.
But I think for you, its personal hatred is paramount.
No point of discussing further, if you like it what you have, go for it, go merry.
06-01-2009, 12:56 AM (This post was last modified: 06-01-2009, 01:05 AM by Bodhi.)
Of all the public pUjA-s that I have expereinced from across the states I feel none do it with more religiousity than the easterners -- Biharis the ShaShThI- and sUrya pUjA; Bengalis the durgA- and saraswatI- pUjA; the nepAla-s indradhwaja; Orissans the jagannAtha yAtrA etc.
Commercialization is everywhere, and worse at other places. Go see gaNapati commercialization in mumbaI and navarAtri in vaDodarA. Go see the punjabi parade at the famed temple of vaiShNavI in the lower himAlaya, then come and compare it with the religiosity of Bengalis at the temples of tArA and kAmAkhyA.
Can we now stop bangal/durgApUjA-bashing please and return to more enjoyable and meaningful BJP-bashing? Besides, bengal has just now kicked the commies in their rear demonstrating that bengali <> commie, once and for all.
Mudyji,
I understand what you are saying. Actually, there are strict orders for card-holder commies not to be functionaries of Puja committees, and and not to be seen in public being associated with such activities. Even mass-front, post holders are barred. However, ordinary members of mass-fronts or the party are in general not debarred, but their participation is also frowned upon in most party units. Exceptions are in areas controlled by mavericks, chiefly allied with erstwhile Jyoti Basu "line", like S(u) Chakraborty.
The money extraction is carried out indirectly, as certain Puja committees are then "required" to pay cash as donation to the "party" or "mass front". However, when the Congress was in power they did the same, and where TMC rules, same happens. It is more about every political party with state power or influence extracts "funds".
As for commie bashing, we have to remember that Bengalis are highly "subversive". I had written on BRF, before the elections, that given appropriate national level or federal backing to protect from CPI(M) retaliation, Bengalees would elect the opponents of CPI(M). So far Cong's alliance with Left, and both trying to liquidate TMC, made them unsure of voting for TMC. But once they would be sure, they will overturn the Left in a single swift blow. This was what they did to the Cong in 77. Each time, it was the atrocities by the ruling regime that was the primary motivating factor.
The regionalism and extreme parichialism that pushed the Cong leaders to abandon the two "revolutionaries" - Punjab and Bengal and let them suffer for not licking Nehruvian boots, has cost India dearly. BJP so far has treated these two provinces with great respect. In Bengal this diference in treatment should be highlighted by the party organizations - for Bengali sentiment is roused by acknowledgment.
BJP has good prospects all along the border districts, and in the south 24-Pgs. However, its promotion of separatist Gorkhaland can make it lose some crucial support if the Left and Cong/TMC decide to play the issue.
Ok guys and gals.. back tp BJP Bashing <!--emo&:lol:--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/laugh.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='laugh.gif' /><!--endemo-->
As for suggestions to the BJP : BJP needs to overhaul its mass-fronts. Primarily, I find that the BJP's youth wing, and student fronts lack the finesse of Communists or the Congress. Even Naxalites can influence a lot of students at the uni level, without having the amount of monetary support that Cong manages.
To match with Communist or Cong sleekness, much more skill in agitation and propaganda will be required. Trusting on RSS style work in these sectors is not going to deliver the goods. This transition from repression era underground form of organization to more mass-front oriented style is crucial. The only way, to tackle and bypass the establishment sponsored and media maintained tilt in Cong favour.
Saturday, May 30, 2009
<b>Without ideology, BJP is nothing </b>
Kanchan Gupta / Analysis
The responses to my last post have been extremely useful; they have helped
clear doubts in my mind. Scintillating debate, even when it gets sharp, is
always welcome.
The rise of the BJP between 1989 and 1998 was directly linked to assertive
Hindu expectations articulated by an assertive Hindu leadership. These can
be briefly summed up as:
. <b>Political:</b> Hindus had begun to tire of Congress's 'pseudo-secularism';
deep within them, Indians nurse a concept of nationhood whose defining
contours are Hindu. When I say Hindu, it is not religion specific but
culture and civilisation specific. The Ram Janmabhoomi agitation found a
resonance across the country because it became a symbol of both bruised
Hindu pride and an opportunity to correct a historical wrong. We could
debate the merits of such perceived hurt and grievance, but that is not
really relevant; what is relevant is that people saw it that way.
<b>. Social: </b>VP Singh's divisive Mandal politics had left middle India aghast
and angry. Since anti-Congress feelings were still high, people turned to
the BJP for succour. 'Hindutva' was seen as a unifying force.
<b>. Economic:</b> With the world moving towards market economy, middle India was seeking liberation from the statist economic control-and-command structure
that had stifled enterprise and restricted growth as well as wealth
generation for more than four decades. On this front, too, the BJP offered
an alternative economic policy and programme, based on deregulation and
reform.
These coalesced into a burst of support for the BJP, taking it to power in
1998. What also helped was the spectre of political instability and
Congress's inability to get its act together during the intervening years
between the 1996 and 1998 general elections.
This tectonic shift in voter preference towards the BJP would not have been
possible without the party's tactical adoption of 'Hindutva' as a component
of its ideology (or, as the BJP calls it, 'political philosophy') along with
'Integral Humanism', which the party says "gives us a broader and modern
perspective and tries to unshackle our minds from parochial concerns and
past baggage".
Deendayal Upadhyaya's enunciation on this aspect was explicit:
âWe have to discard the status quo mentality and usher in a new era.
Indeed our efforts at reconstruction need not be clouded by prejudice or
disregard for all that is inherited from our past. On the other hand, there
is no need to cling to past institutions and traditions which have outlived
their utility."
For the BJP, "A nation state based on Integral Humanism is a secular,
non-theocratic state. Also, it repudiates statism and stands up for
decentralisation to uphold the twin pillars of individual freedom and
national interest."
To this was added 'Hindutva' in the late-1980s, strengthening the Hindu
ethos of the party, making it more credible as a representative of Hindu
aspirations, and setting it apart from the 'secular' centrist and
left-of-centre political parties, especially the Congress.
Criticism of 'Hindutva' as a 'communal' idea was blunted by the Supreme
Court's Constitution Bench judgement which, essentially, <b>said that
'Hindutva' was/is India's 'way of life' and rooted in its civilisational and
cultural history.</b>
The Constitution Bench said,
<b> "No precise meaning can be ascribed to the terms 'Hindu', 'Hindutva' and
'Hinduism'; and no meaning in the abstract can confine it to the narrow
limits of religion alone, excluding the content of Indian culture and
heritage. It is difficult to appreciate how in the face of these decisions,
the term 'Hindutva' or 'Hinduism' per se, in the abstract, can be assumed to
mean and be equated with narrow fundamentalist Hindu religious bigotry..." </b>
The BJP's own articulation of 'Hindutva' is both pithy and sharp:
<b> "Hindutva or Cultural Nationalism presents the BJP's concept of Indian
nationhood. It must be noted that Hindutva is a nationalist, and not a
religious or theocratic, concept."
</b>
Yet, as has been evident during this summer's general election, events and
incidents have controverted this 'concept of Indian nationhood', and driven
voters away from the BJP, especially in urban India and among the middle
classes.
'Hindutva', as enunciated by the BJP, now carries less credibility as a
unifying force. On the contrary, it is seen as Hindu bigotry, fanaticism,
extremism and 'anti-modernism', and anti-social reform. The instinctive
liberal impulse of upwardly mobile Hindus in towns and cities rejects this
<b>perception</b> of 'Hindtuva'. We could argue that the perception is flawed and
not grounded in reality, but as we all know, perception matters more than
reality, especially in politics.
The following have undoubtedly contributed towards the creation of this
perception:
. The anti-Christian violence in Orissa and Karnataka; <i>{I guess, murdering the swami was ok and subversion of a nation by changing demographics is also ok for liberal hindus - HINOs? but it is the hindus' reaction we have to squelch and feel apologetic for?}</i>
. The unrestrained utterances of Hindu organisations like the Bajrang Dal
and the VHP, among many others.
. The moral policing of dubious outfits like Sri Ram Sene which promote
lumpen power.
. The harsh talk of neophytes like Varun Gandhi.
. The inability of the BJP to respond in a cogent and coherent manner when
under attack from the 'secular' camp.
. The failure to strategise how to achieve political objectives and adopt
tactics accordingly.
. The BJP's proclivity to fudge issues rather than confront them.
. The confusion that has replaced clarity within the party about 'Hindutva',
with diverse opinions diluting its essence and disfiguring the concept.
. The absence of any strucured consultative process between the BJP and the
various units of the 'Sangh Parivar'.
. The subversion of organisational interests to promote individual
interests.
It could well be asked that if Hindus want grievances related to their
faith, <b>for instance the threat to Hinduism and Hindu society posed by
missionaries of the Christian church, whom should they turn to if not the
BJP? And, should the BJP shy away from speaking up for Hindu society?</b>
This is no doubt a tricky question. <b>If the BJP is indifferent to Hindu angst
and anger, it will be seen by Hindus as being no different from the
'secular' political class. But if it actively involves itself in the
redressal process, it will rile liberal Hindu sensitivities. </b> <i>{I really would like to know who is and what makes up a "liberal hindu"}
</i>
Nor can the BJP just disown fraternal organisations like the VHP and the
Bajrang Dal. Those who prescribe this course forget that at the grassroots
level, there is tremendous interlinking between the supporters of the
various Sangh organisations. {Amen to that. There is lot of truth to this}
Which brings us to three related questions:
Does a possible solution lie in repudiating 'Hindutva' and retaining
'Integral Humanism' as the core ideological belief of the party, as is being
suggested by some? <i>{This is what 4M axis wants and also by Arun Jaitley}</i>
Or, should the BJP reframe the concept of 'Hindutva' and make it more
meaningful for our times without 'secularising' the party? <i>{This wil be fun to watch to even attempt it}</i>
Or, should the BJP revisit both 'Integral Humanism' [conceptualised in a
particular social, political and economic context that does not obtain any
more] and 'Hindutva' [similarly formulated in a particular social/political
situation that no longer exists], cull out the most redeeming features of
both, and draft a new charter to guide the party in the next decade?
I personally feel the time has come to opt for the third course of action.
[My Sunday column in the Pioneer.] If adopted, it will ensure greater
clarity, help purge the party of its gathered malcontents and give it a 'new
look' with which 'new India' can connect.
<b>The BJP would be reduced to nothing without an ideology of its own that is
uniquely different from what is espoused by others. But ideology must lie at
the core of a grand political strategy, </b>which is different from what the
Americans refer to as 'the vision thing' and of which some in the BJP (the
courtiers) are enamoured because it promotes individuals over organisation.
Can the BJP come up with a grand political strategy in the next five years,
more precisely, by 2014?
The answer to this question is linked to the issue of ideology. One without
the other is meaningless, if not impossible.
[quote=Savithri,May 31 2009, 05:19 PM]
Ravish is talking bullshit. The election was rigged. Period.
Savithriji you have proved to be more loyal than the King.The top leader of the BJP has the following to say
Quote
REVIEW TIME
LK: Below par performance in Guj, MP, UP led to defeat
TIMES NEWS NETWORK
New Delhi: L K Advani, who was elected BJP parliamentary party leader on Sunday, listed the âbelow expectationsâ performance in Gujarat as one of the reasons for the partyâs disappointing result in Lok Sabha polls.
Advani listed Madhya Pradesh as another area where the partyâs performance failed to match expectations. He also said the party fared poorly in UP, Uttarakhand and Delhi.
Advani, who had expressed a wish to quit as Leader of Opposition but was persuaded to stay on, was unanimously
elected on Sunday. He has been authorised to name his deputy in the Lok Sabha as well as the Leader of Opposition in Rajya Sabha. The mention of Gujarat in Advaniâs speech is significant because of Modiâs leadership in the state and Advaniâs close bonding with him. It comes at a time when the prominence bestowed on Modi during the campaign has been cited by some party insiders as well as allies like JD(U) for the NDAâs poor performance.
Advani also stressed that internal feuds had damaged the partyâs prospects. Speaking about the partyâs poor show, Advani said, âWe have to find out why our performance was poor in states like Rajasthan, UP, Delhi, Haryana, Uttarakhand and Orissa. We also have to find out why we won less than the expected number of seats in states such as Gujarat, Madhya Pradesh and Maharashtra.â
Unquote
This is a glaring example of your daydreaming and wishful thinking. In the entire statement no mention has been made of your allegation.Actually supporters of BJP like you who try to live in a world of make belief are one of the prime factors that caused this poor showing of the BJP.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->The mention of Gujarat in Advaniâs speech is significant because of Modiâs leadership in the state and Advaniâs close bonding with him. It comes at a time when the prominence bestowed on Modi during the campaign has been cited by some party insiders as well as allies like JD(U) for the NDAâs poor performance.
<b>Advani also stressed that internal feuds had damaged the partyâs prospects.</b> Speaking about the partyâs poor show, Advani said, <b>âWe have to find out why our performance was poor in states like Rajasthan, UP, Delhi, Haryana, Uttarakhand and Orissa. We also have to find out why we won less than the expected number of seats in states such as Gujarat, Madhya Pradesh and Maharashtra.â </b>
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It was internal feuds (Gujarat, Rajasthan, MP and Uttarkhand) and external vote breakers like MNS in Maharasthra. Allowing party to diminsh in Punjab and Orissa.
But frankly it looks like in last two rounds the BJP decided to let INC win . maybe there is national issues at stake which we dont know. BJP could have raked up many issues but didnt.
<!--QuoteBegin-ramana+Jun 2 2009, 03:05 AM-->QUOTE(ramana @ Jun 2 2009, 03:05 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->But frankly it looks like in last two rounds the BJP decided to let INC win . maybe there is national issues at stake which we dont know. BJP could have raked up many issues but didnt.
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It is hard for me to accept that current INC is like Rao's or Indira's Congress, especially with a nominated PM and a foreign origin super PM.
Unless you give data, I have to say that it is plain incompetency of current BJP leadership. Congress always embarrassed BJP when it was in power, but BJP never tried anything of that sort at INC.
I honestly do not think BJP lost becasue of any issues that BJP could not bring infront of population. I also do not think it is sheer incompetence of BJP.
The entire election was decided by the folks who does not even know what the issues are and the very clever strategy of INC with external help.
Two serious things happened in this election:
1) The HAM portion of the 1980's KHAM got back to INC. These are splintered across mandalputras during 90s and until 2007. This is the serious point that needs discussion as to know why entire HAM moved to INC.
2) This is again related to (1). <b>The significant portions of this HAM is persuaded to vote for INC using India's external forces and clinched the deal for INC.</b>
The other minor swings towards INC are the following:
1) In urban areas, there is a perception that BJP is all hot air but no action. The perception is built irrespective of the fact that BJP did not have numbers and hence was not able to do and will not be able to do.
2) BJP is extremely dependent on its performance on few states and it is impossilbe to peak all times in the same states.
I am attending a chintan bhaitak as a watcher and listener ( off cource will pitchin with some suggestions) and will see the responses of some stalwarts.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Mr. Advani will have to explain this keenness for Jayalalithaa even after suspicions arose that she may have converted to Christianity secretly, and that is why a Bishop performed service at her residence on Christmas last December.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin-Savithri+Jun 1 2009, 11:12 PM-->QUOTE(Savithri @ Jun 1 2009, 11:12 PM)<!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Below par performance in Guj, MP, UP led to defeat <!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If Ravish is going to be selective in his point others are equally selective.
Actually the damage to the BJP in the above 3 states are not as those experienced by the commies in Kerala and WB.
<b>The accusation has been that the rigging took place in all states where the Congress and its allies ruled.</b>
In UP there is a shift in the Muslim vote towards the Congress from the other two seclular parties. You tell me the reason.
[right][snapback]98194[/snapback][/right]
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It doesnt matter to BJP whether the commies got trashed in WB and Kerala so long as they dont win the states they must win.
As regards the Muslim vote it never was that of the BJP so its not a factor for BJP performance. It got shifted to INC from the secular parties like SP etc because there was perception that INC can take care of them rather than these parties. Especially after every blast the police would go round up usual suspects and make big claims about Indian Mujahdeen etc. After a few months they would release the poor folks and the charde would start again. All these acts would drive the Muslims closer to INC. But if you see the Hindu 2009 "How India voted" pdf, there was a segment of Muslims in India who did vote for NDA.
BTW rose colored glasses are OK so long as they are not seeing thru jaundiced eyes. What do you mean to by your first sentence?
<!--QuoteBegin-Swamy G+Jun 2 2009, 06:34 AM-->QUOTE(Swamy G @ Jun 2 2009, 06:34 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->What is the source for the news that JJ converted to Christianity?
[right][snapback]98200[/snapback][/right]
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's from Sandhya Jain's article that JJ might have secretly converted to Chiristianity.
Yes, I read her piece. I was wondering Sandhya's source. There are so many stories and rumors. Politicians are hypocritical it will be tough to determine the truth. Karunanidhi is supposed to be donor to a temple near his house. But he will go about blasting Hinduism all the time.
