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Christian Subversion And Missionary Activities - 5
Related to point 6 of the previous post.

Universal christian teaching:

1. Catholicism:
(via http://haindavakeralam.com/HKPage.aspx?P...712&SKIN=W )
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Pope rejects condoms for Africa
South African President Thabo Mbeki with Pope Benedict XVI in May
The Pope has already met South African President Thabo Mbeki
The spread of HIV and Aids in Africa should be tackled through fidelity and abstinence and not by condoms, Pope Benedict XVI has said. <!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

2. Fundy evangelical christianism:
<b>Uganda: 'Abstinence-Only' Programs Hijack AIDS Success Story</b> - HRW, March 30, 2005
via http://freetruth.50webs.org/D4b.htm#UgandaAIDSProgram
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin--><b>U.S.-Sponsored HIV Strategy Threatens Youth</b>
    <b>Uganda faces a nationwide condom shortage due to new government restrictions on condom imports.</b> In late 2004, the Health Ministry recalled batches of imported condoms, allegedly due to failed quality control tests. Instead of addressing the shortage, some ministers suggested that Ugandans adopt abstinence as a preferable HIV-prevention strategy.

    "Uganda is gradually removing condoms from its HIV/AIDS strategy, and the consequences could be fatal," said Tony Tate, a researcher with Human Rights Watch’s Children’s Rights Division and the report’s co-author. "Delaying sex is surely a healthy choice for young Ugandans, but youth have a right to know that there are other effective means of HIV prevention."

  <b> The U.S. government has already budgeted approximately U.S. $8 million this year on abstinence-only programs in Uganda as part of President George W. Bush's global AIDS plan.</b> The National Youth Forum, headed by Ugandan First Lady Janet Museveni, a vocal proponent of abstinence-only, has received U.S. funding under the plan. The First Lady has lashed out against groups that teach young people about condoms and called for a national "virgin census" to support her abstinence agenda. The Virginia-based Children's AIDS Fund, an organization with close ties to Janet Museveni, was recently approved for a major abstinence-only grant, despite having been deemed "not suitable for funding" by a technical panel of the U.S. Agency for International Development (USAID).
    <b>"Abstinence-only programs are a triumph of ideology over public health,"</b> said Cohen. "Americans should demand that HIV-prevention programs worldwide stick to science."<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Christowest embarks on plan: how to genocide Africans through AIDS by denying condoms.

The African catholic priests are already implementing it: raping African nuns.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin--><b>Vatican Recognizes Rape Report</b> - Washington Post (Reuters AFRICA) March 21, 2001

    VATICAN CITY -- The Vatican yesterday acknowledged a report that some priests and missionaries were forcing nuns to have sex with them, and in some cases forcing their rape victims to have abortions.
    Some nuns were also forced to take oral contraceptives, the report cited in the newspaper La Repubblica said.

    The Vatican said the issue was restricted to a certain geographic area, but the report cited cases in 23 countries, including the United States, Brazil, the Philippines, India, Ireland and Italy.
    Although the Vatican did not name the area, the report said <b>most incidents of sexual abuse against nuns occurred in Africa, where the nuns were identified as "safe" at a time when AIDS is devastating the continent.</b><!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Health warning: "Christianism gives you AIDS."
A televangelist's surging wealth prompts growing questions
By Ames Alexander and Tim Funk | Charlotte Observer

INDIAN LAND, S.C. _ As Easter approached, the ad ran repeatedly on the Inspiration Network: David Cerullo, clutching a Bible, told viewers that they, too, could receive prosperity, physical healing and other blessings that God gave the ancient Israelites.

All they had to do, the televangelist said, was send $200 or more.

"Go to your phone," he said. "Sow your Passover offering and watch God do what he said he would . . . Call now."

Pitches such as this have made the Charlotte-area cable network one of the world's fastest-growing Christian broadcasters, beaming into more than 100 countries on five continents. They've also helped make Cerullo, Inspiration's CEO and on-air host, a wealthy man.

He brings home more than $1.5 million a year, making him the best-paid leader of any religious charity tracked by watchdog groups. His salary dwarfs those of executives leading far larger religious nonprofits.

David and Barbara Cerullo live in a 12,000 square-foot lakefront home in south Charlotte _ complete with an elevator and an 1,100-square-foot garage. Their grown children also receive handsome salaries.

To read the complete article, visit www.charlotte.com.

Bible was written over a period of 1,000 years by, of course, 6 different people so don't make me believe it is the word of God. I don't want to sound rude, but to me being an Evangelical is the equivalent of Muslim extremism. Evangelicals usually are not tolerant toward things or individuals that are different from their belief. Everything is evil and diabolic to them except Bush of course. My opinion is that this is not a religion but a sect and the followers are brainwashed.


You really can't blame the guy for trying to make a living. Religion is a great business to get into these days, especially in poorer, less educated red states. There's a fortune to be made here and it's all tax free. And, unlike dealing drugs, it's a relatively low risk business. What more could you ask for?


it is time the gov taxes the religious leaders and their dwellings.


If people see what this guy is doing and continue to allow him to be a religious pirate hiding behind an altar then who are we to complain. It's not like he's hiding anything. He lives in a 12,000 square foot house and they continue to give hiom money...shame on them

The first 2 of 6 items - all swiped from RS' blog - were also posted in christianism's sibling's thread (since christianism=islamism).

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Friday, May 22, 2009
<b>more on luuuv and peas in cheriyathura, trivandrum</b>
('Peas' seems to be Nizhal Yoddha's new phrase for 'peace' aka islamists.)
may 22nd, 2009

<b>it turns out that 400 mohammedans armed with serious bombs (not even really crude ones, either: with gelatine and detonators) were marching towards the christist enclave, where 600 christists had been mobilized.</b>

it looked like luuuuv was going to take a big hit from peas.

<b>therefore the police fired and killed 6 peas-ful mohammedans.</b>

and the christists are terrified peas will break out again soon.

incidentally, the govt gave rs. 10 lakhs to the kin of each peas-ful guy killed.

moral: to get money from the government, become a mohammedan carrying gelatine bombs and marching to attack christists. or hindus. or anybody.
Posted by nizhal yoddha at 5/22/2009 08:45:00 PM 1 comments
2. http://rajeev2004.blogspot.com/2009/05/che...ts-or-love.html
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin--><b>Cheriyathura (love-peace riots), or Love and Peace in India</b>
may 24th, 2009

all that remains is for liberty to join in the fun.

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: K


"<b>The three ideologies (Love Peace and Liberty)</b> have not yet started exchanging blows simply because their areas of operation have not yet coincided. They have chosen to feed upon different limbs of the large-sized Hindu society. Christianism is busy amongst Hindu "tribals" whom Hindu society had always left undisturbed. Islamism is on the prowl amongst the Harijans whom a power-hungry leadership is fast preparing for political blackmail. Communism is spreading its tentacles amongst the upper and middle classes whom it parades as its "proletarian base."<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

3. http://rajeev2004.blogspot.com/2009/05/rat...tlanticist.html
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin--><b>ratzy pisses everybody off: atlanticist</b>
may 20th, 2009

it's not surprising, because he's a former nazi (i didn't make that up, this atlanticist article itself tells you he wasn't (Nizhal means: <i>was</i>) a former member of the wehrmacht), and he thinks otherwise that he lives in the 14th century CE, the 'golden age' of the church, when it had all the power, the money, the land, and the women. ratzy is a perfect example of all that's wrong with the church. he was, it may be remembered, formerly the 'grand inquisitor'.

he isn't making gaffes when he says these bad things. they are coming from the bottom of his heart.

in any case, ratzy, nor any other bigtime godman, has always only included jews and mohammedans in all their apologizing and make-nice. their attitude towards hindus and others of the old, pre-semitic faiths has always been: "convert, die or flee". not at all different from that of mohammendans, except the christists say it much more sweetly. they know marketing.

Posted by nizhal yoddha at 5/23/2009 05:39:00 AM 0 comments<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
From that Economist link http://www.economist.com/world/internation...fsrc=nwlgafree :
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin--><b>The pope</b> then made things worse for himself by speaking of the “tragedy of the Shoah [Hebrew for the Holocaust]” without attributing blame. This led to Israelis raking over his own early life as <b>a soldier in the Wehrmacht</b> and before that as an (unwilling) member of the Hitler-Jugend. And yet another mistake: the pope used the word “killed” rather than “murdered”.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

4. http://rajeev2004.blogspot.com/2009/05/chr...on-lessons.html
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin--><b>christist 'luuuuuuv' in action: Lessons for Tribal Hindus of India</b>
(Lessons for all remote/out-of-earshot Hindus)
may 23rd, 2009

there is a huge 'mediation center' at muringoor near trichur, kerala. they have been accused of murdering lots of people and all kinds of other mischief. naturally, because the people they murder are usually hindus, the church and the kkkangress hush it all up. (actually, even if they murder christists, it's hushed up -- note the hundreds of cases of nuns being found dead, generally following sexual harassment).

of course, large-scale conversion also goes on there. in addition, a lot of mental patients are apparently 'treated' there, although i believe the recovery rate is poor. it is yet another mechanism by which christists make money.

so is the following story from africa.

they worship mammon, the god of money. and <b>they want to wipe out hinduism. very dangerous people.</b>
(Actually, they worship a non-existent monster variously called "jeebusjehovallah".)

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: <info@

<b>Church in Africa: Child Witches</b>
Dan Harris' story airing tonight on World News highlights the cruelty and violence directed at young children in the Democratic Republic of Congo.  Tens of thousands of children are being tortured and executed because they are accused of witchcraft in the name of (by) Jesus Christ.  These victims are suffering at the hands of a new breed of pastors who profit by telling parents that the source of their money and health problems is their children.



Source: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8063855.stm

what happens behind Church doors (in this case the Orthodox Church). This video reveals how drug addicts have allegedly been filmed being beaten.

A video of one assault, published by Vreme magazine, shows a man appearing to assault a patient by hitting him with a shovel and punching his face. One former resident said staff had offered to cure his addiction with "pleasant conversation" and beatings. A priest running the centre, near Novi Pazar, said a "heavy hand" was needed. One former resident said staff had offered to cure his addiction with "pleasant conversation" and beatings. A priest running the centre, near Novi Pazar, said a "heavy hand" was needed.

Posted by nizhal yoddha at 5/23/2009 09:58:00 AM 0 comments <!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

5. http://rajeev2004.blogspot.com/2009/05/rep...-christist.html
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Saturday, May 23, 2009
<b>repeat post: instances of christist 'luuuuuuv' from all over</b>
may 23rd, 2009

i don't know how we can stand all this 'luuuuuv'. in fact we can't.

it's a bit like all the 'sacrifices' by the nehru dynasty. ok, thank you very much, let somebody else do some 'sacrificing' now.

it is downright embarrassing how little the average indian knows the real history of the christist church and all those 'holy-holy' godmen.

(The text at that link is originally from the brilliant - but now apparently defunct - web site "The Christian Heritage":

Posted by nizhal yoddha at 5/23/2009 10:12:00 AM

<b>1 comments:</b>

nizhal yoddha said...

    senthil has left a new comment on your post "List of christist 'love' from all over the world":


    <b>I wish this chronicle should be translated in all possible indian languages, and distributed to the respective people..</b>
    5/24/2009 8:17 PM

Post a Comment<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

6. http://rajeev2004.blogspot.com/2009/05/orw...-christism.html
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin--><b>orwellian: the word 'holy' in christism</b>
may 20th, 2009

when white christists say something is 'holy', it usually means the exact opposite, in an orwellian way.

'holy' land == stinking desert full of bloodthirsty barbarians killing each other
'holy' see == place where some of the worst human-rights atrocities were dreamt up, eg. the inquisition
'holy' bible == see the skeptics' annotated bible on the net. if this is of divine origin, that god is pretty pathetic
'holy' father == guy who rapes young boys, keeps sex-slave nuns, etc
'holy' ghost == sort of like 'caspar the friendly ghost'? christists themselves are embarrassed about this because they just swiped the idea of the 'trinity' from hinduism (creator, sustainer, destroyer), and then didn't know what to do with it. they could have said, 'father, son and mother', but no, how could that be reconciled to their endemic misogyny? so this lame 'ghost' was invented. if the father is god and the son is son of god, why do you need a third wheel? this is what comes when you steal ideas without understanding them
'holy' roman empire == bunch of murderous godmen and kings who ran around creating the dark ages, when christists were so benighted that mohammedans actually looked much more enlightened than them

i am sure you know of other 'holy' stuff, please feel free to post the actual translations.
Posted by nizhal yoddha at 5/23/2009 09:45:00 AM 0 comments <!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Destroying Buddhism was a big part of Brit policy. The Buddhist routine, the temples, begging monks, long boring prayers–it was the glue that kept Kandy together. So the Brits decided to destroy it. They even said so, in private memos to each other. They weren’t shy in them days. Here’s the Brit governor in 1807: “Reliance on Buddhism must be destroyed. Make sure all [village] chiefs are Christian.”

Up to 1818, the Brits had a blast messing with doomed Sinhala rebellions, trying out CI recipes like Frankenstein guesting on Rachael Ray. A good time was had by all, except the Sinhalese. They had a very, very bad time, and it was about to get worse.

See, another constant you’ll find in Brit imperial policy is that although they’re very sly and patient, they have a very good sense of when to cut the crap and just wipe out a tribe that’s been annoying them for too long. They were getting sick of the Sinhalese, with all their bickering and intrigues; the redcoats just weren’t enjoying the Col. Kurtz game the way they used to. So boom: the “kill’em all” era begins.


- For all those who've never Brecher on the British - he hates them and history jingos on here should love this article.

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->British administrators were trained to do a kind of rough, quick sociological sketch of the natives, get a sense of the fault lines and then figure out how to exploit them. The Brits saw fast that the Kandyans were a sluggish bunch of people divided into rigid castes in the classic subcontinent pattern. That made it easy: the Brits made two big castes their official pets and shunned the others, setting up a violent hate between different parts of Sinhalese society. That guaranteed that if the diehard Sinhalese/Kandyan nationalists ever revolted, the teacher’s-pet castes would have a good selfish reason to help massacre them.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->And to this day, they don’t catch even a little bit of Hell for it. Everybody thinks the Brits are all cute and harmless. You’re all a bunch of suckers for those suave accents, you suckers! The truth is that compared to the Brits, the <b>Nazis you’re always yammering about were a gang of eighth-grade stoners who ran around spraypainting swastikas on school property</b>. The Nazis lasted one decade; the <b>Brits quietly ran their extermination programs for three hundred years, and to this day they wouldn’t even think of feeling guilty about it</b>. Wouldn’t cross their minds.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Australia is the center for evangelism for India
They want to keep that distance with India. so that they can continue the conversion

I have always been surprised at the relative lack of warmth between Australia and India, over the years. This is all the more surprising because of the shared colonial legacy, the English language and cricketing ties. The problem seems to have an uncanny resemblance to the troubled India-US relationship in the past decades.( Read Strobe Talbott's "Engaging India: Diplomacy, Democracy, And The Bomb" for a better understanding of this.) Australia seems to be trapped in the cold-war diplomatic positions vis-a-vis India. The feeling in Indian diplomatic circles is an equally strong disdain for Australian foreign policy.

India didn't take lightly Australia's indignant reaction to India after 1998 nuclear tests.To Indian policy makers, it smacked of hypocrisy for Australia to make such noise when it was sitting pretty under the protection of a US Nuclear umbrella. Since there was not much of dependency on Australia for anything (trade, defense ties etc.) India ignored Australia after that for a long time.Indian view of Australia is that of a US lackey, not having any independent and coherent policy towards India.

The fact of the matter is that Australia has little or no leverage with India now. There is absolutely no way Australia can hurt India.If Australia wants to build a new relationship with India and have access to the huge market, its upto the government to take the steps. If Australia doesn't sell Uranium to India, Kazakhstan will benefit. Who loses out? Years of sanctions and US sermons couldn't make India join NPT or CTBT. Finally US saw reason and came around for a Nuclear deal with India.

It required a George Bush to take that painful step towards pushing India-US relationship past the roadblocks strewn by old prejudices. In my opinion, it will require a similar kind of visionary foreign policy and leadership from Australia to move a relationship with India forward. Otherwise India and Australia will go on merrily with their policy of ignoring each other forever.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Please click on the link below.
The article starts at page 26
page 58 there is elaborate views of Joseph Dsouza of DFN



Attached is a link to a Christian Magazine called Charisma. Please read the article about the progress Christianity has made in India in the recent years - starts on page 26 (God's Moment for India). This is a must read article that summarizes the astonishing progress made by missionaries within the last decade. This article claims that Orissa is now 28% Christian. You should also read the article on page 6 ("They Burn Bibles in India). There are several reasons for this astronomical success; the key reasons are the following.

1. The caste system practiced in India (and the inhuman treatment of dalits and other poorer segments of the population in some corners of the country - a country where Lord Krishna Himself once walked).

2. Money - Billions of dollars are entering the Indian society for conversion purposes. This money flow has transformed the missionary work into a homegrown movement. Read about local missionaries highlighted in the article. Evangelizing is now a well-oiled machine in India helped by corrupt politicians and media.

3. Support of political leadership (Mrs. Sonia Gandhi and her family along with her political subordinates)

4. Commitment of foreign missionaries to bring India to Jesus

5. Violent approach taken by many Indian groups to confront the attack on their heritage. This is not only against Dharma tradition; it only helps missionaries to raise more money by using any violent incident as a marketing tool.

6. Clinging to Manu Smriti (caste system and degrading treatment of sections of the society) and refusing to become a proselytizing religion.

At this rate the Hindu faith will become a minority faith inside India within the next few decades (it is a simple diffusion process).

Please click on the link below.

Moved here since I just noticed that Ramana wanted the historicity of jeebus thread to be kept on-topic.

Sorry, can't let this pass:
<!--QuoteBegin-ramana+May 14 2009, 12:26 AM-->QUOTE(ramana @ May 14 2009, 12:26 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->1. Its interesting that Islam didnt allow female priests or mullaesses while Christianism does. Its like Judaism in this respect.

2. BTW did Arabs pick up the burqa from Nestorian nuns?

Moving 2 to top:
2. Older posts: The christoislamic veil is <b>biblical</b>. (And veil in Zoroastrianism vs mandatory islamic veil).

1. Nuns are NOT priests, by the way, hence not female version of priests. Christianism does not allow "female priests".

There are none in the catholic church.
http://atheism.about.com/b/2005/03/10/a-wo...hristianity.htm via http://freetruth.50webs.org/A3.htm#BibleAndWomen
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->[Saint] Augustine (354-430): "Woman was merely man's helpmate, a function which pertains to her alone. She is not the image of God but as far as man is concerned, he is by himself the image of God."<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->(Also see the bible: Jeebus' head is gawd. Man's head is jeebus. Woman's head is man. "Hence" - by christologic - his head should be bared in church but her head should not be uncovered in church - and outside too, apparently; christian women traditionally wore a veil or scarf over their head. If women's heads were uncovered in church, the babble commands the faithful sheep to cut their hair.)

Modern day schisms are in the making and heretical christian sects are springing up over this matter of christian women's position in christianism and hence the church (similar to the gay issue).

Anyways, it's not just the older christian cults, but newer ones that insist on the same - not to allow females in priestly positions - because they're all basing it on the sole authoritative source in this matter. The bible:
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Southern Baptist Convention (2000): "A wife should submit herself to the leadership of her husband. Leadership in the church should always be male."
Local church in Holland (2004): "More and more we see women being placed in the position of Elder or Pastor in churches. Is this a good thing? Well, if your goal is to undermine <b>the authority of the Word of God</b>, it's a good thing."

Link http://atheism.about.com/b/a/152227.htm<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->It is derived from the babble's gender-based discrimination and simultaneously it *derives* gender-based discrimination. (See Augustine above, actually see all of http://atheism.about.com/b/2005/03/10/a-wo...ristianity.htm).

The idea of nuns started off as a means the Church could undertake to obtain aristocratic Roman women's property: if they could be prevented from marrying and if they belonged to the church, then the church could inherit their money and property.
Later on, in the christianised Europe of the Dark Ages, women were frequently sent to the convent if their families found them expensive to maintain, which was the traditional aristocratic christian view of female family members. If family couldn't marry a woman off, they would send them to the church. Naturally, it was her dowry that goes to the church as well (as they were the "brides of christ"), a trend which was started by the church in Roman times. Later women of christian Europe sometimes chose to join the convent in order to escape forced marriages (frequently this was the only alternative provided them), etcetera. Too many examples.
<b>ADDED:</b> a high-profile one that comes to mind is IIRC Anna Amalia - sister of King Friedrich II of Preussen (Prussia) I think it was - who was offered the choice of marrying Friedrich's pick or go into the cloister (since he didn't like her choice). I think she went into the convent for a good while, but not sure now.

In Kerala, the church makes money from the induction each nun. There was an article discussing this, possibly even at IF? In any case, see also How poor christians in Kerala put their girls into the convent because marriage dowries in christianism in India is too expensive. The matter is also covered by C I Issac:
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->The Syrian Christian community with immense wealth, celebrating their marriage ceremonies with the pomp of “Maha Kumba Melas”, is the real culprit behind the plight of poor girls behind the bars of convents. The seven-digit dowry and celebration turned as a nightmare to the poor Christian families. So the economically weak in the Christian community can’t imagine marriage of their daughters. Kottayam, a small town of 25 lakhs of people and five Cathedrals with Christian economic dominance, has one and a half dozen ‘five star jewelers’ shows the extent of the pompous of richness of Syrian Christians. Now money is a deciding factor in this community. So, economically weak Christians are gearing to compete with the rest through acquiring money. As a result they are compelling their lasses to opt either to nursing or to nunnery. The convent is dam cheap as compared to nursing. So the economically too poor parents are forced to herd their damsels to the convents. Therefore, the Kerala’s Syrian Christian Church is the chief contributor of the 95% of nuns required for the proselytism activities of the Churches in India.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd--><!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Kottayam district has by far the highest Christian population in the country
(46%) and is often called the Vatican of India. It is the center of
recruitment of Catholic nuns and priests. Most of the nuns belong to the
poorer section of the rich Syrian Malabar community. They cannot think of
raising the fabulous sums that the well-off families give their daughters as
dowry. If they cannot afford the other established option either -- to pay
for their education as professional nurses -- they are left with no socially
accepted solution other than forcing the young girls – too young to decide
for themselves – in convents.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Nunneries are a whole different class altogether.

Some have surmised that the earliest nunneries were in order to enable the 'celibate' priests to be non-celibate well out of the public eye, while both genders of the supposedly morally upright class could at the same time keep their 'reputations' with the argument "How dare you suspect us! We're *both* of a celibate order, don't you know?" even as they committed everything upto infanticide (the latter was such a frequently occurring phenomenon in medieval nunneries that there was at least one major church council convened about it.)

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->  The second fact is that St. Jerome, who then lived in Rome as a sort of secretary to Pope Damasus, has left us a large number of letters in which he describes the character of the Christians of Rome. In almost incredible language, he insists that clergy, monks, consecrated virgins, widows, etc., are monstrously and, with very few exceptions, comprehensively corrupt. "St." Damasus himself was denounced by his priests to the civil power for adultery, and was only saved by the emperor.
-- How Christianity Grew Out of Paganism, by Joseph McCabe

"In the time of St. Cyprian, before the outbreak of the Decian persecution, it had been common to find clergy professing celibacy, but keeping, under various pretexts, their mistresses in their houses; and after Constantine, the complaints on this subject became loud and general. Evagrius describes with much admiration how certain monks of Palestine, by 'a life wholly excellent and divine, had so overcome their passions that they were accustomed to bathe with women.' Virgins and monks often lived together in the same house, and, with a curious audacity of hypocrisy, which is very frequently noticed, they professed to have so overcome the passions of their nature that they shared in chastity the same bed."
    -- Crimes of Christianity by G W Foote & J M Wheeler, quoting historian Lecky

    From the first century, "the Agapeta, were virgins who consecrated themselves to God with a vow of chastity and associated with laymen, who like themselves had taken a vow of chastity. ... It resulted in abuses and scandals. ... St. Jerome [about 400] asked indignantly, 'Why was this pest of Agapette introduced into the Church?'
-- Forgery in Christianity. A Documented Record of the Foundations of the Christian Religion, by Joseph Wheless, citing the Catholic Encyclopaedia unless otherwise specified

    During the reign of Pope Damasus I (366-383):
    The biblical scholar and ascetic St Jerome (c342-420) warned the women of Rome that the Catholic Church, under Damasus I, was monstrously corrupt. He claimed that priests, monks, professional virgins all were debauched and that they engaged in "love feasts" - orgies - in churches on saints' days. Virgins "fall every day" he wrote in a letter to an aristocratic woman called Eustochium, warning her to avoid the pontiff's flock.

    In another epistle, Jerome said that men became priests and deacons "so that they may see women more freely".
    Jerome warned one Roman woman to never remain alone in a room with a priest. Should she find herself in such a situation, the woman was told to "plead that either her bowels or bladder needed relieving".
    Christian women were not to be trusted either, according to Jerome. "Never enter the house or be in their company alone," he said.
    To Jerome, the only women of virtue to be seen on the streets of Rome were not Christians but pagans.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->The above is all exactly as the priests and nuns and churches are in *India*, *today*. For example, a few items off the top of my head that had been posted on IF:

1. Nun-turned-author Jesme's experiences with priests and nuns who can't keep their claws to themselves,

2. The uncelibate behaviour that the nun Abhaya saw another nun and a couple of priests engage in, for which they raped-and-murdered her and then tried to cover it up as a 'suicide' for a long time.
Actually, most of the vast number of nun-murders in and by Kerala Churches is on account of these things (rape, molestation, witnessing similar things, witnessing the murder of others who were victimised by rapist priests and penguins).
See for instance C I Issac's articles on this, such as "The Dreadful Dracula Houses of Kerala- The Catholic Christian Convents of Central Kerala" from 23/04/2007 at http://haindavakeralam.com/HKPage.aspx?P...541&SKIN=C. More examples like the suicide-murder of nun Anupa Mary who was sexually harassed by a senior nun. And like Anupa Mary who was found hanging from the ceiling fan, another nun was recently found suicided by hanging as well: Sister Josephine of Idukki in Kerala (Feb 2009).

3. The news from not-so-long-ago of a nun who made a mobile phone sleaze home-video of her own 'exploits', see http://rajeev2004.blogspot.com/2009/01/dal...can-herald.html "DalitFreedomNetwork: Deccan Herald - Kerala nun's sexcapade stuns church"

4. The vampire priest of Cochin (<- The title Rajeev 2004's blog uses for that bishop Thatunkal or something who's been parasiting in Kerala. He 'adopted' a young woman for his 'spiritual nourishment' and was using some of her blood as a sacrifice to jeebus),

5. The christian priests - 'fathers' - teaching in christian schools and colleges who prey on young female students. E.g. Principal Father Mathew of St Claret High School in Bangalore who molested 18 female students and when finally exposed went into hiding from the police. News articles here

Nothing has changed since christianism infested Rome, because all this hypocritical promiscuity IS christianism and christianism does NOT change.

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->    The Vices of Nuns [9th Century]

        "...female convents were [no] more successfully regulated [than monasteries], for the Council of Aix-la-Chapelle, in 836, states that in many places they were rather brothels than houses of God; and it shows how close a supervision over the spouses of Christ was thought requisite when it proceeds to direct that nunneries shall be so built as to have no dark corners in which scandals may be perpetrated out of view. The effect of these efforts may be estimated from a remark... of Erchenbald, Chancellor of Charlemagne... that the licentiousness of nuns commonly resulted in a worse crime, infanticide."
        -- History of Sacerdotal Celibacy within the Christian Church by Henry Charles Lea (American Quaker historian of the Church), p. 108<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd--> Again, this is reminiscent of the news from Feb 2007 about a christian missionary 'hospital' in India where baby bones were found:
Bodhi and Bharatavarsha posted several news articles on how 390 bones and remains of children (including newborns and at least 14 foetuses) were found at the "Ratlam Christian Hospital".

And of course this news from October 2008:
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Revelations put nun's life in danger

THIRUVANANTHAPURAM: A nun's life is under threat following her revelations about the alleged abortions performed on nuns and the "limitless"' affairs the priests were having with nuns of the Congregation of Daughters of Mary Convent, Anchal.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Sorry to keep repeating the above, but there's no point imagining some kind of theoretical gender equality or pretence to the same in christianism, when such an incorrect supposition is just ascribing lofty motives to what was originally (since late Roman/earliest christian times) no more than a tool of convenience for the priestly order and a means of money for the church. Even today, the church the world over still finds it convenient for their priests - considering the 'reputation' of their occupation - to have officially forbidden (and frequently denied) intimate relations with nuns, since this keeps such matters private.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin--><b>Vatican Recognizes Rape Report</b> - Washington Post (Reuters AFRICA) March 21, 2001

    VATICAN CITY -- The Vatican yesterday acknowledged a report that some priests and missionaries were forcing nuns to have sex with them, and in some cases forcing their rape victims to have abortions.
    Some nuns were also forced to take oral contraceptives, the report cited in the newspaper La Repubblica said.

    The Vatican said the issue was restricted to a certain geographic area, but the report cited cases in 23 countries, including the United States, Brazil, the Philippines, India, Ireland and Italy.
    Although the Vatican did not name the area, the report said most incidents of sexual abuse against nuns occurred in Africa, where the nuns were identified as "safe" at a time when AIDS is devastating the continent.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Sex, Priests, and Secret Codes: The Catholic Church’s 2000-year Paper Trail of Sexual Abuse by Krishen Kak at VijayVaani.

Priesthood as vocation – and the mental health professional by Krishen Kak at Vijayvaani
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->The sexual abuse of nuns by priests is rampant "especially in Africa and other parts of the developing world" and is well within the knowledge of the Vatican. <b>Indian nuns are exported to the West where, for example, in the Brigittine Order in Italy, they reportedly suffer "maltreatment, moral violence and working conditions close to slavery", reminiscent of the infamous Magdalene laundries of Ireland.</b>[13]

Christian priests in India are not immune to this-worldly Christian love. The "church in Kerala is rocked by sex scandals" and 63 Kerala priests stand accused of "murder, attempt to murder, rape, molestation, assault, abduction, theft, break-in, cheating…almost every offence under the Indian Penal Code —and of course, the Ten Commandments". Tamil Nadu priests are trying to catch up. Notorious proselytiser Graham Staines was accused of sex-abuse and, as it happens, "Christian nuns claim false rape in India to defame Hinduism".[14]
(The married missionary Staines attempted rape of one of his new sheep: neo-convert-to-christianism Hemalata Karua - the wife of another of Staines' converts).<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

"Female priests", in christianism?
Female christian terrorism, yes. "Equal" in terror, yes. Female priests? No.
About this in the previous post:
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Modern day schisms are in the making and heretical christian sects are springing up over this matter of christian women's position in christianism and hence the church (similar to the gay issue).<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Recent example:
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin--><b>Will Government file affidavit to ordain Women Bishops?</b>
18/02/2009 15:31:22 

<b>Church council against move to ordain women bishops</b>

KOTTAYAM: The recent move by the Church of England to allow ordination of women as bishops has caused ripples among traditionalists in the Indian church especially in this region, the seat of Syrian Christianity, with top religious leaders opposing it tooth and nail, asserting that episcopacy was not the job of the fair sex.

As the <b>historic decision of the Anglican Church</b>, the most influential Protestant congregation, <b>created a vertical split in the Anglican communion in Britain and rest of the world</b>, top church leaders here lost no time in denouncing the move.

As the historic decision of the Anglican Church, the most influential Protestant congregation, created a vertical split in the Anglican communion in Britain and rest of the world, top church leaders here lost no time in denouncing the move.

"It is not a question of faith but tradition. Christianity extends all considerations to women. Women are not inferior as they are equal before God," Council of Christian Churches of India (CCCI) President Arch Bishop Stephen Vattappara told reporters.
(Wrong. Again - [Saint] Augustine (354-430): "Woman was merely man's helpmate, a function which pertains to her alone. She is not the image of God but as far as man is concerned, he is by himself the image of God."
Now Hamitic bishop Vattappara shouldn't be contradicting the Japethic saint.)

"Equality does not mean that mother becomes a father as both have distinct features and functions and should be maintained as such," he said here.
(Nice PR damage-control by stealing the Hindu reasoning of specialisation/sometimes-distinct-sometimes-overlapping funtions and passing it off as christian. But see Augustine and others who know christianism better at http://atheism.about.com/b/2005/03/10/a-wo...hristianity.htm )

The CCCI, formed in 1973 as the Indian arm of the International Council of Christian Churches and comprising Anglican, Methodist, Presbyterian and Anglican orthodox churches, declared its stand on the issue at its three-day national assembly held in Kurici near here recently.
(Indian church is right in this. Church of England has gone even further into heresy.
And what's 'Anglican Orthodox'?)<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin--><b>Italy: Requests for 'debaptisms' soar in Milan</b>
30/05/2009 01:21:08 

Milan:  The northern Italian city of Milan is experiencing a boom in the number of people who want to renounce their baptism and leave the Catholic church. <b>A report in the Italian daily 'Il Giornale' said the diocese had received over 200 requests in the first five months of 2009, equalling the total number received in 2008.</b>

" As a pastor, I worry and suffer every time I have to sign, as I did this morning, when I signed five or six of these requests," said Luigi Manganini, the priest who presides over the discipline of the sacraments of the Milan diocese quoted by Italian daily 'Il Giornale'.

Manganini said this upwards trend of so-called 'debaptisms' is " worrying " because the majority of the cases are of people between the age of 40 and 50. In his view, baptism is irreversible.1`

Read full report at
Good for them.
Next step: return to the Olympic Gods.
<b>Seer hacked to death in Puri</b>

Wed, Jun 3 05:00 AM

A religious leader who participated actively in the protest against the killing of Laxmanananda Saraswati last year was chased and hacked to death by unidentified assailants in Puri on Tuesday.

The police, however, ruled out any communal angle. "We suspect that he was killed over extortion money," said Puri Deputy Superintendent of Police Rajkishore Paikray.

The police said Ramcharan Das, famous as Mauni Baba, was feeding fishes at a pond early in the morning when the assailants chased him with sharp weapons. Paikray said at least 10 injury marks were found on his body.

The police said some local goons had been extorting money from the 60-year-old leader who used to live with his wife Pratima at his Gurukripa Ashram in Puri town. His wife told the police that the criminals had threatened him a few days ago with dire consequences if he did not pay up Rs 15,000.

The police have detained one person, identified as Panchanan Sahoo, on suspicion.

A popular figure in Puri, Das was an active member of the Matha Mahanta organisation of Orissa. <b>In the aftermath of Saraswati's killing last year, he took the lead in the protest against the VHP leader's murder.</b>

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John Calvin was a Frenchman, but he is being remembered in Geneva this week because it was here that he built Calvinism. Invited to reform the city in 1541, almost as what would now be called a management consultant, he formed an alliance with the city fathers. Over the next 20 years of preaching and pastoring they turned this tiny city, with a population then of only 10,000, into a model of church government and theology which has changed the world.

His followers now form the third-largest Christian grouping in the world. The world alliance of reformed churches claims 75 million members, and while this is a lower headline figure than the Anglican Communion's 80 million, it is not inflated by 25 million nominal Anglicans in Britain.
Following on from K.Ram's #550

found via http://www.haindavakeralam.com/HKPage.aspx...eID=8758&SKIN=B
<b>Maoist-Church Nexus Threaten to kill BJP MLA and Hindu leaders in Orissa</b>
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->FRONT PAGE | Friday, June 5, 2009

<b>Maoists threaten to kill BJP MLA Pradhan</b>

Pioneer News Service | Phulban

The Maoists have threatened to kill the newly elected MLA from G Udyagiri of Kandhamal Manoj Pradhan. They have pasted posters threatening to kill the BJP MLA.

Besides Pradhan, four members of the Bajrang Dal also figure in the hit-list. It was alleged that the Maoists getting support of a few churches have started targeting members of the various Hindu outfits.

Pradhan is presently languishing in a prison as the police slapped a number of charges against him. He was arrested on charges of murder, arson and rioting in mid-October, 2008. As he has not yet been released, he is yet to take oath as MLA.
(Yes, it's called the Christo Inquisition Of All Key Hindus Who Impede The Christoconversion Of A Region That Christos Have Marked For Jeebus. Christos either murder these Hindus or they inquisition them.)

“We are investigating the matter after threat posters were recovered from Raikia area,” said Kandhamal Superintendent of Police Praveen Kumar, adding two posters were found at Raikia threatening to eliminate Pradhan and some other members of the Bajrang Dal.

Though there was no major communal violence since October last year, the posters have triggered tension in the district with police seizing the hand-written materials, sources said.

Pradhan earned the wrath of the Maoists after he raised his voice against the ongoing rampant conversion initiated by the Church in Kandhamal district. Later, police booked him as prime accused in last year’s violence in Kandhamal.
(Hmmm. Common pattern of christopolice/police in christo-employ in India. E.g. Dara Singh, and the Hindus still stuck in the Christo Inquisition/fake 'Hindu Terror' case.)

<b>Pradhan is a main follower of Swami Laxmananda Saraswati whose killing on August 23, 2008 had led to widespread violence in Kandhamal. But Pradhan’s popularity came into limelight when he was elected to the State Assembly from G Udaygiri constituency despite being inside the jail.</b> While all the senior leaders of the BJP lost the election, his wining in the election indicated his popularity among the tribals. The BJP on Thursday said the rebels had attacked Dilu Pradhan, a Bajrang Dal activist, a few days ago.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->How very curious.

Headlines from christoterrorist 'secular' papers:
- TOI: <b>Kandhamal Maoists threaten to kill G Udayagiri MLA</b>
Yeah, everyone knows the christian persuasion of the Kandhamal maoists.

- IE: <b>Anti-Bajrang Dal posters trigger tension in Kandhamal</b>
You don't say.

On K.Ram's 550 again. Curious that another popular Hindu who sought justice for the brutal christoterrorist murder of Swami Lakshmanananda was also brutally murdered recently. In a pre-meditated 'secular' <i>looking</i> act of 'mere goondaism' of course:
<!--QuoteBegin-k.ram+Jun 3 2009, 07:19 AM-->QUOTE(k.ram @ Jun 3 2009, 07:19 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin--><b>Seer hacked to death in Puri</b>[right][snapback]98251[/snapback][/right]<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

found via http://janamejayan.wordpress.com/2009/06/0...-death-in-puri/
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin--><b>Orissa Govt fails to protect Seers, alleges VHP</b>
Tuesday, June 02, 2009

By Golakha Chandra Das; Bhubaneswar: The Viswa Hindu Parishad on Tuesday strongly condemned the brutal murder of Mauni Baba aka Rama Charan Das Maharaj and alleged the Naveen Patnaik led Government in Orissa has completely failed in protecting Hindu seers and saints.
<b>Terming the murder as yet another planned conspiracy to demoralize the Hindus, <span style='color:red'>VHP State secretary Gouri Prasad Rath however demanded a high level probe into the murder that took palace at Kumbharapara on the outskirt of the holy city of Puri.</b></span>
Due to the failure of the present Government, Hindu seers and saints are coming under frequent attacks from anti-social elements. The Government must apologies publicly for its failure, he added. Mauni baba was killed by unidentified persons with sharp edged weapons near his ashram while he was probably going for a morning walk.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->Note that Swami Lakshmanananda - the earlier victim of christomurder - was a VHP leader himself. He was also aware of the christo conspiracy against Hindu Dharma and his life (well, Hindu Dharma=his life, but this is no time for maths).

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin--><b>Hindu Seer Hacked to death again in Orissa, Police float Secular Theories</b>
03/06/2009 13:32:12  With Inputs from Ashok Chowgule

Puri:Swami Ramcharandas famous as Mauni baba who participated actively in the protest against the killing of Laxmanananda Saraswati last year was chased and hacked to death by unidentified assailants in Puri on Tuesday.

The police said Swami Ramcharan Das was feeding fishes at a pond early in the morning when the assailants chased him with sharp weapons.Paikray said at least 10 injury marks were found on his body.

A popular figure in Puri, Das was an active member of the Matha Mahanta organisation of Orissa. In the aftermath of Saraswati's killing last year,he took the lead in the protest against the VHP leader's murder.

The police, however, ruled out any communal angle. "We suspect that he was killed over extortion money," said Puri Deputy Superintendent of Police Rajkishore Paikray.

<b>If one were to accept the extortion theory, then the police should tell how many others have been hacked to death because of their refusal to give money. And if they could come so quickly to the extortion theory,then they knew about the extortionists earlier. So why did they not take any action?

When a Hindu seer gets killed, the police find secular theories, always. When a non-Hindu priest gets killed, it immediately becomes a communal event, always.</b><!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

<b>Another Hindu Seer brutally murdered in Orissa</b>

I'm sure there's a trend in all of this somewhere....
Let me see now, just the relevant excerpts again:
1. http://www.dailypioneer.com/181002/Maoists...LA-Pradhan.html
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin--><b>Maoists threaten to kill BJP MLA Pradhan</b>
Besides Pradhan, four members of the Bajrang Dal also figure in the hit-list. It was alleged that the Maoists getting support of a few churches have started targeting members of the various Hindu outfits. [...]
Pradhan is a main follower of Swami Laxmananda Saraswati whose killing on August 23, 2008 had led to widespread violence in Kandhamal.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
2. www.indianexpress.com/news/Seer-hacked-to-death-in-Puri/470208
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin--><b>Seer hacked to death in Puri</b>
A popular figure in Puri, Das was an active member of the Matha Mahanta organisation of Orissa. In the aftermath of Saraswati's killing last year, he took the lead in the protest against the <b>VHP</b> leader's murder.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Just inexplicable, except when one takes into account the 'miracle' for christianism of the 'sudden death' of key Hindus - and what better source of convenient miracles than that <i>Religion</i> of Miracles.

Oh, I don't know.... The puzzle is still not clear to me. Can I buy a vowel?

Maybe after the christoterrorists inquisition and kill a thousand more key, resisting Hindus - <i>then</i> I may finally get it. Until then, sorry, it's just not clicking.
^ Important.

Note the dates:

Back in Sep 2008: "Hindus thwarted Christian attempt to get Hanumanji 's moorthy removed in Kanyakumari"
Now in May 2009: "Christian Taliban strikes: Hanumanji statue demolished"

1. http://www.haindavakeralam.com/HKPage.aspx...eID=7166&SKIN=B
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin--><b>Hindus thwarted Christian attempt to get Hanumanji 's moorthy removed in Kanyakumari</b>
29/09/2008 12:34:12  HK

Kanyakumari: Hindus thwarted here an attempt by Christians and District authorities to remove a recently installed moorthy of Hanumanji.

The 24 foot moorthy was installed near Sunset point in Kanyakumari with the permission of Panchayath. , <b>But Christians who sees red in anything Hindu influenced the Pseudosecular DMK in Chennai to remove the moorthy.</b> As usual Christians with the support of the World Council of Churches and the atheist DMK government have mounted violence against the Hanuman statue.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The DMK is not merely psecular, it is undeclared christian. The truth of it will come out someday. In the meantime you can see lots of its christianist leanings in the Terrorism Of The Tamil Christo Lawyers, and such things as:

quoting from Expressbuzz
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->In an eleventh hour swing, <b>DMK's Helen Davidson</b> could emerge victorious from Kanyakumari constituency as <b>many churches in the district have identified her, during Sunday worship, as the candidate for their congregations to
vote for.</b><!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->For a secular 'atheist' party ranting against religion (only Hindu Dharma), isn't it interesting that DMK should feature such a faithful rabid christian?

Hindus thwarted the christoterrorism in Sep 2008. But christianism, like the zombie that it is, is single-minded and relentless and will never give up:

2. http://satyabhashnam.blogspot.com/2009/05/...ri-taliban.html
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Tuesday, May 26, 2009
<b>Christian Taliban strikes: Hanumanji statue demolished</b>
After renaming Kanya Kumari to Kanya Mariam, Chrisitan Extremists took down Hindu God Shri Hanuman ji's statue just like how Taliban destroyed Bahamian Buddha statues in Afghanistan.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

3. See images:
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->May 26, 2009

<b>Kanyakumari, Christian district</b>

Hanuman statue removed in Kanyakumari,

from Radha Rajan
date Tue, May 26, 2009 at 8:51 AM
subject Kanyakumari, Christian district

I maintain that the separatist state of Tamil Eelam will be only a Christian state like east Timor.

When you allow the church and Islam to alter the religious demography in any place, the first thing these rascals do is to destroy all vestiges of non-Christian and non-Muslim presence in public spaces.
(Now why did Radha Rajan have to go and say "<i>church</i> and Islam". Sounds like "British and the muslim invaders". Can't she just say "christianism and islam" outright?
Why do Hindus have such double standards? HOW is christianism in any way better than islamism? It's *factually* worse, going by the number of people it has genocided - but that's because it has had longer. Else they are <i>EXACTLY</i> the same: same temple destruction, nation destruction, destruction of human populations.
Such excuses as 'church' and 'missionaries' are only concealing the true criminal which is christianism.
Remove the churches and missionaries and more will come. Why? Because of christianism giving rise to them. Remove christianism, then no more churches and no more cannibal sheep. Because then the *cause* for these things is gone.)

I have drawn your attention to the obscene Jesus Christ statues which offend your eye when you enter Chennai by rail from the Egmore end or the central station end.

That has been allowed to stand.

<b>Now look at what the collector of Kanyakumari has ordered— the removal of Hanuman from a park.

It has been removed despite protests from villagers nearby.</b>

That's church for you and that's Islam.
(And Radha does it yet again. What's with the reference to 'church' anyway? Muslims and christians may not all be terrorists, but both christianism and islamism ARE terrorisms.)

The BJP leadership has a lot to answer for.

-- RR<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->BJP ShmeeJP. When people rely on others to do their job for them - waiting around for others to help or guide them - nothing happens. You do things yourself, absolutely never rely on others (bound to be disappointed).
If someone with actual leadership does eventually come along, then great. If they don't, then at least you didn't waste precious time doing nothing and letting the parasitic weeds grow so bad that they've overtaken your home and laid it to waste. No one can help you if you let it get that far, no matter how heroic they might be.
3/4 the problem is Hindus. They refuse to even name the enemy ('church! church!' instead of saying christianism), no wonder they can't fight it.

Kanya Kumari belongs to Kanya Kumari (our Devi). Christianism needs to get lost from Bharatam. It is a terrorist ideology that is entirely alien to humanity. All the Indian sheep can move to their beloved western slaughter houses where the western sheep don't want the Indian sheep, but for which the Indian sheep have nevertheless been bred (converted). Hamitic Cannibal Sheep are bred in alien pastures for consumption by the Japhetic Cannibal Sheep. They don't like Hamitic Sheep wandering in their Japhetic pastures.
Nevertheless, Hamitic sheep ought to be fenced off with the other cannibal sheep, since they belong together and not with the inconvertibles in the rest of the free world.

Oh now. Why didn't I twig? I think I can finally guess why Radha Rajan - who used to make the analogy "christianism is akin to cancer" (see her video on Intellectual Subversion) is now only talking about 'the church'. That's probably because Hilda Raja - the heretic, but still a professed christian - joined The Gang. And thus now all Hindu resistance has gone into permanent slumber again. Nothing to beat a single, even if weakened, christian element when injected into a mass of Hindus waking up to terrorism. 1 infiltrating christian - well meaning or no - makes for powerful sleeping potion. The death that ensues is still the same. The Hilda Rajas can't stop it. They actually aid it. What do they care. They're Not Hindu.
Heretics are not Hindus' friends. They invariably weaken Hindu resolve in identifying the culprit and taking action to neutralise christianism. Just because one likes them (individuals who are christian heretics) one can't 'by extension' pardon their ideology which is unpardonable.
Not sure if this was already posted here. On christoterrorism in Orissa. Starts from past, but certainly comes down to present.


Table referred to is at original link, but I've moved text here for easy reading (I found it a bit hard to read at HK because of the white space in between each large paragraph)

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin--><b>Saga of proselytisation in Orissa: Past, Present and Future</b>
16/05/2009 10:45:37 

By Debasis
Tripathy in Bhubaneswar

At last the balidan of swami Laxmananda Saraswati, the venerable saint who emerged as the nemesis of proselytisation, compelled the state government to confess the reality, may be in late. <b>The patriotic blood of Swamijee has dragged  the truth out, that “ Conversion to Christianity is the root cause of all problems in Kandhamal” ,</b> what the state government has submitted before the Supreme Court. It is an official declaration of the government admitting the allegations of uncontrolled and unlawful proselytisation, mushrooming growth of which is continuing since 1720 AD, even under the nose of the administration. Anti conversion laws have taken compulsory retirements in order to appease the evangelical vote bank of the sate whose number is ever increasing. The govt. has admitted that 24,000 Hindus have been converted to Christianity in Kandhamal within few years, which is openly denied by the evangelists. They do not want to loose their minority identity in spite of possessing an army of proselytisers in many parts of the state including Kandhamal. A series of church sponsored atrocities and conversion in the name of service and religious purity, made by the so-called god men in white gowns, has disrupted peace and composure in the state a great deal , which is being officially admitted today by the state government.

The crusade of proselytisation first started in Orissa in the year 1720 AD , with a well chalked out plan to make this holy land of Lord Jagannath , a part of the evangelical empire by destroying Orissa’s deep rooted enriched culture and heritage. The church people left no stone unturned to make their unholy mission successful. The first school of proselytisation in Orissa was opened at Athgarh in Cuttack district , where a Hindu Sadhu namely Sundar Das was tortured by pastors and he was forced to accept Christianity .
Sadhu bluntly refused to become converted for which he was sent to jail at the age of 110 years, basing on false allegations manufactured by the evangelists. How ever his two pupils namely Gangadhar Sarangi and Ramachandra Jachak were converted to Christianity through allurement that if they would become Christian, their writings would be published in the Church printing press. This was the first conversion in Orissa in the month of October 1827. Sadhu Sundar Das was a preacher of Bhakti Cult who was working as a  soldier in the army of the then king of Athgarh during his youth. Latter he left army and started studying Sanskrit and scriptures , became a Sanyasi. The Church people first targeted him and did every effort to mould him towards Christianity. Two missionaries namely Bampton and Pegus came to him in the year 1822 and persuaded him to become Christian but Sundar Das was not ready to discard Hinduism. Sadhu Sunder Das also started his Sudhi programme and returned back his followers who were baptised by pastors. Hence he became sole target by the Church and breathed his last on 16th April 1838, in a very miserable condition. Though Sadhu Sunder Das was not directly killed by the Church, but he was compelled to die being imprisoned for false allegations made by the church people. The same thing was repeated,but in a different manner in 2008 ,in which Swami Laxmananada was murdered by the evangelists.

<b>Christian Press in Proselytisation-</b>

The evangelists  as a part of their tarnished ploy for proselytisation, started printing press in Orissa in order to attract people. As there was no such printing press , people thronged in to their press to get their literary works published. Taking its advantage, the church started publishing different blasphemous literatures defaming Hindu deities like Lord Jagannatah in a most uncivilised manner. In 1838, Orissa Mission Press was established in Cuttack and two books were published in Oriya language namely “ Sat O Asat Jagannath”(True or False Jagannath) and “ Gundicha Yatra ra Mahaschrya Phal”  ( The surprising result of  Car Festival ). These books openly outraged Lord Jagannath and reprimand the deity and his devotees in a worst possible manner. Two more publications namely “ Kutrabar Patra” and “Gayan Runa” were published from the said printing press in 1759 and in 1849 respectively by pastor C. Leysy as their editor. Both these publications worked as the  manifesto of proselytisation through which a good number of educated people were baptised . Apart from this, the church people in the name of spreading western education in the state harvested a good crop of converted Hindus through their mission schools. Convent schools were opened in different parts of the state. The famous Sunday School was started at Cuttack in 1822 and other 27 such schools were established in the coastal belt of Orissa during 1897 and the total student strength of these schools were 1248, all most all were baptised. In 1823 , four English medium schools were opened at Cuttack along with a boarding school. This boarding school which latter turned into an orphanage, was a workshop of proselytisation and all the children were converted to Christianity . Latter , in 1881 CuttackStewartSchool and in 1882 MissionSchool, were established at Cuttack to fuel the fire of proselytisation.

<b>Revolution Against Church-  </b>
It is a part of the known history that the Vanvasis of Orissa have been badly affected by the illegal conversion, their socio-cultural and religious lives have been contaminated by the church people. Kandhamal is the best example what the church has done there and how it has been spreading hatred among native vanvasis and how the same is being protested by the culture-loving tribals. The church people created panic in the tribal areas of the state through proselytisation, poor people were searching way how to get rid of the same , again spreading of blasphemous imputations against their deities made them furious . A revolution broke out against Christians 1815 in the tribal areas , famous as “ Ghumusar Revolution” and continued up to 1857. The book namely “Administration of East India Company” authored by Mr. T.W.Kaye is the clinching evidence of this revolution. At page 595 & 596 , the author writes “  Missionary activities of Christian Padris all over the estate alarmed the people about the impending danger to their religion and civilisation and subsequently they took to arms to defend their faith and culture from being imperilled by the rising tide of Christianity in the region.”  The revolution first started by Kamal Loachan Dora Bisoi, backed by the king Sreekar Bhanja and Dhanajaya Bhanja . In 1837, Dora Bisoi was captured by the British people and was sent to Ooty jail where he died in 1846. ( ref. letter of captain Macpherson to Mills dtd. 27.12.1846. B.R.A. Vol. 1846 ) . The then princely states were also helping the revolutionaries to drive the missionaries out of the state in order to save the Hindu religion and Jagannath cult form destruction and to combat proselytisation. However , Dora Bisoi ignited the first flame of revolution against the evangelists in Khurda, Banapur, Puri areas and the same became successful and took the momentum as the famous Paika Revolution of Khurda of 1817. The second phase of revolution against Christians started by Chakara Bisoi, Nabaghan Kanhar, Bira Kanhar and others in the year 1846 and continued up to 1866. [ ref. Letter of Samuels to secretary to govt. dtd. 1.2.1856, B.R.A. Vol. 1855-57 ]. This revolution spreaded like wild fire against the Christians far and wide. Chakara Bisoi and his revolutionary friends led the revolution from Athagarh to Paralakhemundi, from Angul to Ghumusar, from Patanagarh to Nayagarh, from Boudh to Russelkonda mostly against the socio-cultural and religious exploitation and conversion by Christian pastors. In Kandhamal, the Kandha vanvasis killed 13 proselytisers including British officials at a place namely Udaygiri , which was their spontaneous reaction against the Christians.

While this revolution against the Christians was in its full swing and was approaching towards its finality, the unfortunate calamity devastated Orissa , ill-famous as the Famine of 1866. About 10 lakhs people died out of starvation and the Christians did not miss the golden opportunity to catch fish from that troubled water. They started  food stalls where the hungry Hindu people were being provided food in exchange of their religion. These stalls were working as the open canters of proselytisation. Three evangelists namely William Brooks, William Billey and John Bookley were in charge of this mass conversion drive and many Hindus were converted to Christianity being compelled by the situation. [ ref. Letter of Mr. Derby to Thomas cook dtd.7.11.1888]. This historic famine broke the back bone of the poor people of Orissa and their
revolution against the church sponsored atrocities was cool down.

<b>Table Showing Christian Population in Cuttack- Bhubaneswar</b>
Source- www.catholic-hierarchy.org
(See table at link)

As per the census of 2001, the number of Christian population in Orissa has been reported as 1,468,575 out of total population 37,655,762 and the percentage of Christian population is 3.09%. But the data of Kandhamal district is quite disturbing where the Christian population growth has been reported as 66%. About 42,353 Hindu vanvasis are converted to Christianity in Kandhamal during 1991-2001, but among them only two persons have been converted as per law. According to data available with the district collectorate, the Christian population in Kandhamal was 117,950 in the 2001 census, up from 75,597 a decade earlier."The Christian growth rate in the district is 66 percent as against 18.6 percent for the overall population growth in the district," District Collector Krishan Kumar told Organiser .Kumar said that the Orissa Freedom of Religious Act, which came into action in 1989, allows people to change or adopt any religion but all such individuals need to submit a form to the district magistrate.” We have received just two applications not just between 1991 and 2001 but between 1989 and 2008. We must understand that every one must follow law," Kumar explained.However, he did not specify what action the district administration has taken to punish those who have violated the law.Asked if he attributes the growth of Christian population to conversions, he said: "It could be because of two reasons - conversion and migration. “Of the over 650,000 people in the troubled district, at least 53 percent are tribals. Of the nearly 118,000 Christians, a majority has converted from Dalit families. Dr. Kumar said . But on the other hand , Arch Bishop Raphael Cheenath says that Christians are minority in Kandhamal. But the question arises if only 2 persons are legally converted in Kandhamal then why proper legal actions are not being taken against others who are illegally converted and against those who baptised them unlawfully?

The Orissa Freedom of Religion Act, 1964 which was enacted to combat conversion from one religion to another religion through fraudulent means , allurement or by applying force, has become a mockery in the hands of the callous executive machinery. This legislation and the Rule framed there under has been completely paralysed . The Christians demand for the repeal of the said Act in order to make their illegal proselytisation free from all barriers. Arch Bishop Raphael Cheenath publicly outraged this legislation  as a “Draconian Legislation” and demanded for its repeal . No action has been taken against them. On the other hand in order to appease the Christian Vote Bank, the government has turned deaf towards illegal conversions. Late Nandini Satapathy, the former Chief Minister of Orissa raised this question of uncontrolled conversion in the state Legislative Assembly and demanded for a white paper on the issue on 25th March, 1998. It is a fact that the Congress governments in Orissa had shown undue favour to the Christians but the degree of such favour which Naveen Pattanaik has been  showing towards proselytisers has crossed all limits. In the aftermaths of Kandhamal incident of August ,2008 , about 1285 Hindus have been arrested all over the state and 16543 Hindus are being prosecuted in different charges, whereas the government has given the Christian goons free breath. “It is the notorious ploy of Shri Mohapatra, the chief mentor of the state govt. and political Guru of Naveen Pattanaik to finish Hindu unity . Shri Mohapatra is an ardent Communist  and hand in glove with Maoist ultras and Christians.” – says Shri Subas Chouhan, the National Co- Convenor of Bajrang Dal.

<b>Cultivation of Souls- A plan for 2000AD.</b>

What is the future plan of evangelists?
The answer is, total proselytisation of Orissa and to establish a Red
corridor starting from Chhatisgarh to Bihar. In order to achieve this aim, they
plan to-

1. Occupy Orissa for Jesus Christ

2. Reach at each and every people and village

3. Construct churches in each and every village

4. send missionaries to every PIN code areas

5. Distribute evangelical literatures among every educated people.

6. Display  evangelical movies in every village

7. Fight with the non-believers.

[ Ref. 2000AD plan for Orissa by Reverend P.R.Parichha , Tulashipur, Cuttack-8]

Apart from these, the project Jesua-1 and Jesua-2 are in operation in the state aiming at complete proselytisation. Time has come , the Hindus must be united to combat this menace of Proselytisation , otherwise this peaceful state will turn into an other North East states like Nagaland and Tripura. Awake Hindus awake<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<b>Move TTD Chief, urges Evangelists!</b>

Hyderabad: Christian Missionary groups in AP have met Andhra Chief Minister Samuel Reddy and demanded the removal of TTD Executive officer K. V. Ramanachary from his post.This is in wake of Hindu revival programs conducted by TTD which in turned checked
the conversion agenda of Christists among poor and naive.

TTD in recent past has stepped up Hindu culture based programs like Annamacharya Kiratns,BajaGovindam,DalitaGovindam ,teaching vedas to Fishermen & Tribal’s etc.The response to these Hindu revivalism was great.

This has angered Christian groups and are now unleashing their evil tactics once again.Chief Minister's son in law and a notorious evangelist is the mediator between Christist and CM, who himself is a crypto Christian.

These Ba***rds needs to be taught a lesson. Where are our Bajrang Dals & Hanuman Sena?
<img src='http://www.deccanchronicle.com/files/imagecache/322X222/files/gallery/7city_2.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image' />

Rajasekar Reddy to Archbishop of Hyderabad " Don't worry. We will convert the entire state to Christianity. Also we will convert those fools Naidu & Chiranjeevi first to Christianity.
<b>Hindu Fanatics Attack Pastor, Pastor Arrested on False Charges</b>

Hindu fanatics attacked a pastor in Andhra Pradesh and reported him to local police, for distributing Christian literature. A local fact finding team from the All India Christian Council met with local police. The culprits were summoned to the police station and after a discussion, the pastor was released.

According to a source, the incident happened Saturday morning around 8.30am, when Pastor David Raju from Hyderabad went for a Christian meeting invited by one of his churches in Mangalagiri in Guntur district, Andhra Pradesh. On his arrival, a group of about 20 people, allegedly Hindus, beat Pastor David severely and later the attackers made false charges of forced conversion, to the local police. Police took the pastor into custody and he was held until the aicc fact finding team intervened. He was released at around 2.30 PM.

The fact finding team was led by Guntur district aicc leaders Mr. Timothy, Mr. Ravi Prakash, Mr. Boaz and other state leaders. With the help of the local Congress leaders, the matter was brought to a compromise and pastor was allowed to carry on with his meeting in the church that invited him.

In the past week, 20 Christian students were attacked by Hindu fanatics in Hanwada village of Mahaboobnagar district in Andhra Pradesh. The students went in two vehicles to distribute Christian literature in the village.

According to local sources, members of Hindu fanatic groups attacked the students while they were distributing the literature. One vehicle with a few students managed to escape from the village when they were attacked. The remaining vehicle with 13 students was handed over to the local police station. The hidus warned the students to stop distributing any Christian propaganda. The students were later released from police custody.

Local aicc leaders say Hindu fanatics are trying to turn Andhra Pradesh into a Gujarat and Khandamal-like situation by attacking Christian minorities in the state. This state has seen attacks on Christian minorities for several years.

<b>Lanka moots anti-conversion law </b>

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Little lion-hearted Lanka leads by example once again. It was the first nation in the post-Second World War era to elect a woman prime minister; then it became the first nation to spurn ineffective external intermediaries in a fratricidal war and launch a concerted armed effort to end violent secessionism once and for all.

Now, the island’s Buddhist religious leadership has risen to redeem the Indic tradition by repudiating inter-faith dialogue and demanding national legislation against conversions. India would do well to take a leaf out of Colombo’s book, given the mischief Christian colonial powers are wreaking in our neighbourhood: Myanmar, Nepal, Tibet, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Iran, and of course, Iraq. 

Sri Lanka’s Joint Committee of Buddhist Organizations (JCBO) wants reintroduction of the stalled Bill on Prohibition of Forcible Conversion of Religion (L.D.O./INC/7/2004). This is being criticised by Christian bodies, and 24 mainline Christian leaders, including 18 Catholic Bishops and retired Bishops, the Anglican Bishop of Colombo, Baptist Sangamaya, Presbyterian Church and Salvation Army have appealed to parliamentarians against it.

They contend that the proposed Bill will undermine the democratic right of religious freedom to choose a religion according to one’s conscience; prevent Christians and adherents of all religions to stand with the affected and serve one another for fear of legal consequences in spite of their innocence; and provoke more inter-religious suspicion, tension and conflict than resolve them. They claim that all religions in Sri Lanka have originated outside the island, and that over the centuries, the Christian Church and Christians have become an intrinsic part of the social fabric.

This mischievous re-packing of the colonial Aryan-Dravidian divide insinuates Hinduism and Buddhism as imports from India (with ‘Dravidian’ Tamils as Hindus); it was stoutly rebuffed by Gamini Perera and Chitra Wijesekera, co-conveners of the JCBO.

They countered that the Christian Church emanated from a colonial background of repression and could not equate itself with Buddhism, which has molded the life, culture and traditions of the country for over 2550 years. The JCBO said the barbaric manner in which different brands of Christianity spread is well documented. Despite this, tolerant Buddhist rulers and people permitted other believers to merge with the national social fabric and even protected the Catholic community when hunted by Dutch Protestants, offering even temple premises for religious activities; similar asylum was given to Muslims attacked by the British. All religions could enjoy all privileges only because of the magnanimity of the Buddhists.

Addressing Christian leaders directly, the JCBO said some of their major activities were directed at expanding Christianity through questionable means. Their commendable humanitarian services stand marred by subtle, long-term strategies to attract persons of other religions to their faith. Christians have established good educational infrastructure and turned this to undue advantage by alluring non-Christian parents to accept immoral conditions for the admission of their wards to Christian schools, even though many schools receive sizeable public funds. In India too, Christian NGOs corner governmental aid in the name of their developmental expertise; and the possible misuse of these funds has never been probed.

Gamini Perera and Chitra Wijesekera charge that the Church never denounced or took action against Catholic Bishops with LTTE links. In fact, the activities of some senior Christian clergy aimed at breaking up the nation, and even today, some Christian leaders’ statements are unduly biased in favour of the LTTE.

The JCBO openly charged the Churches of synchronizing their myriad activities to achieve the objective of Christianizing the Buddhist world. The late Pope John Paul II said when he visited India: “the task ahead of the Church is the evangelizing of Asia during this millennium.” Way back in 1940, Rt. Rev. Lakdasa De Mel, on elevation as Assistant Bishop of the Anglican Church, had asserted: “The task of the Church in Ceylon will not be finished till the remaining ninety percent of the population, who are not Christian, are converted.”

The Buddhist leaders rejected Christian concerns about the anti-conversion bill, pointing out that original Bill had been placed before the island’s Supreme Court and after two full days of comprehensive arguments by both sides, the Court determined that its main contents were acceptable, barring a few amendments necessary to qualify it to be passed by ordinary majority in Parliament; these have been attended to since. The Bill has no provisions to prevent acting according to one’s conscience or make one who does so an offender.

But, and here lies the rub, it designates as offenders those who convert or attempt to convert by force, allurement or fraud, or aid and abet such conversions. The Buddhist clergy forcefully asserts that it does not accept “Sri Lankan society as presently constituted as a pluralistic society, but this notwithstanding, the Bill in no way undermines or tampers with the right to one’s conscience.” There are, it points out, special protections to ensure frivolous actions are not brought before a Court. Clearly, six decades of dominant western political rhetoric is meeting its Waterloo in Colombo!

Batting valiantly for the Buddhist-Hindu ethos, the JCBO alleges that inter-religious tension is rising because of the activities of evangelical churches, better known as fundamentalist Christian groups. This was admitted by Bishop Malcolm Ranjith, Secretary General of the Catholic Bishops’ Conference, in a letter to the Ministry of Cultural and Religious Affairs in May 2000.

Christian fundamentalists boldly oppose Buddhist monks defending the freedom of religion of Buddhists targetted for unethical conversions; monks are often subjected to threats and violence. In North Lanka, where Christian Churches have long had a privileged presence, an alarmingly large number of helpless Hindus have been pushed to change their faith. In India, Hindu monks defending the underprivileged against forced conversions are shot to death (Shanti Kali ji, Agartala; Swami Laxmanananda, Kandhamal) or hacked to pieces (Swami Ramcharan Das, Puri).

The Buddhist clergy maintain that 80 percent Lankans are legitimately aggrieved at the absence of a law against unethical conversions. Rejecting the Christian plea for an Inter Religious Council to discuss conversions because the goal of the Church to evangelize the entire region is unchanged, it urged Parliament to debate the Bill and take it to its logical conclusion. India needs a dose of such clear thinking and bold affirmation in defence of its civilisational ethos.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->


I give a royal salute to Govt of Sri Lanka.
Drop Christianity
"Organized religion is responsible for the brainwashing of millions of young children too young to know the difference between reality and the fantasies of millions. Save Yourself. Drop Christianity."
Posted by Mandavya Atri at 1:18 PM 0 comments
Labels: Brainwashing, Christianity, Organized Religion
Bible Reading Rapists
"Out of convicted rapists, 57% admitted to reading pornography. 95% admitted to reading the Bible."</b>
Posted by Mandavya Atri at 1:14 PM 0 comments
Labels: Bible
Sunday, August 24, 2008
Nietzschean Musings: God’s Suicide
Friedrich Nietzsche wrote in his “Thus spoke Zarathustra” that “God is dead! And we have killed him!”. While I admire very much Nietzsche’s philosophy, I think we should dig even further into this matter. We never put a finger on God, our hands are clean! God committed suicide ! He’s dead, by his hand!
I won’t bother with the Old Testament, when he was just a tribal god, similar to so many others, and “inspired” by the other gods “who didn’t exist”. Let the Jews worry about that. I’m talking about when he was “promoted” to a universal god, for all human beings. Suddenly he changed his old ways and decided to use other methods. He appeared to us in the form of a b@st@rd son and made his new rules heard. Now the whole human race became his “chosen ones” and bloodshed , mass exterminations and crushing the infidels were no longer required. Suddenly he spoke of love, peace and tolerance between people.
Jesus (as he is portrayed in the Bible) appears as a peaceful, passive being, devoid of any pride or ego. He asks us to love our neighbour, to love our fellow humans how we love ourselves and to grant permanent forgiveness to those who hate, hurt or do us wrong, no matter how much wrong. We always have to forgive and never resist when we are attacked, insulted or beaten. Also, the rules about chastity are even more tightened. Now, not only sex before marriage or cheating on your partner is sinful, but even looking at someone of the opposite sex and secretly desiring him/her will be treated as a deadly sin. The same will be said about verbally insulting someone and calling them “fools”. This is God’s new ideology that we must follow in order to achieve eternal happiness. This ideology brought by Jesus is more than just an ideology. This is what God represents. This is God.

Christian Group Blesses Sotomayor Confirmation Hearing Room With Oil (VIDEO)
Note these are the very people that mock other religions for praying to 'idols' or laugh at other's 'superstitious beliefs'.
With price of crude having doubled in past couple months, hope that oil was well spent.

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