04-19-2007, 06:12 PM
Mudy, I know you are a venerated Admin at IF, so with all deepest respect, may I ask why your post is not "ad hominem attack", bringing in red herrings that have nothing to do with the SSC project, and generally attacking the postor instead of giving facts relevant to the topic?
Let me repeat the sections of your post above:
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Neelan,
First remove one Makbara and Mosque from road in CP, New Delhi. Govt can't expand road because of those man made structure. And then tell Hindus to be opened minded.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Er... above, you ordered me not to represent Hindus (which I have not tried to do). Now you are ordering me to go remove mosques in New Delhi? If I cannot represent Hindus, how can I lead the charge to destroy these moques?
Also, are you saying that the "Hindu Opposition" to the SSC project off the coast of Tamil Nadu, is really because of the Hindu "not-open-mindedness" arising out of the injustices in New Dehi? So the logic is:
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin--> You don't destroy THEIR man-made structure in New Dehi, so we won't let you destroy OUR MAN-Mad(er.. Vanara-made).. I mean, "natural" ... structure off the coast of India in Tamil Nadu<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd--> Your movement is to put sand in the mouths of the children of Rameshwaram just because you have some complaint against some jerks in New Delhi?
I thought, from reading the other great postors' statements here, that the opposition was because of the atrocities against the Kanchi Sankaracharya, Placing a Statue of EVR outside a Hindu Temple, etc. etc. At least those are geographically closer to the SSC than New Delhi!
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin--> <b>I think first fix Paki, commie, SIMI, and Chini border, those who are already inside and causing problem. Why worry about those who are outside?</b><!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So then all the rest of IF can pack up, can't it? Can I have until Tuesday to "fix Paki, commie, SIMI and Chini border", please?
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin--> Read Ramayana and your vagueness will disappear. <!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ah, yes, but I have and that is why I am not being vague, unlike the respected postors here.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin--> Your scare tactics are similar to commies who scream, they are coming, they are comingâ¦..<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd--> I didn't see you saying that to the postors who threatened me and "narayanan" with the following:
1. Sending allegations to "our" government(s).
2. "Drop Dead!"
3. "Get lost!"
4. "Get off this thread!"
etc. etc.
Wonder how the fellow knew what government that is? Are the admins sharing my IP info with postors who threaten violence? In this age? Did you read about the Virginia Tech shooter? At least two of the postors here who have been abusing narayanan and me, don't send warning bells ringing to you? You deleted narayanan's post listing "Srini"'s threats, but did not delete Srini's post.
If you didn't find <b>those</b> "scary" and did not feel like you had to even warn those postors to start behaving like adults, why are you scared at being told that the Maoists (they used to call themselves "Marxist Leninists" ) of AID-India were far ahead of the RSS in opposing the project, it is only now that the "Hindus" have decided to join the Maoist bandwagon. THAT is scary to you? Wow!
From this, Mudy, I have to conclude that you are unable to separate your personal opinions about this project, which are of course very welcome anywhere, from your Admin responsibilities. Doesn't your version of the Ramayana have anything to say about that, Mudy?
What is clearly seen above is:
1. The SSC project has been seriously discussed since the 19th century.
2. In 1999, the BJP NDA government finally agreed to listen to the demands from the Tamil Nadu and Kerala and Andhra governments, (TN and Andhra were in the NDA coalition then) to push the project forward seriously. All concerns about national security (which is a driver of the project), marine sanctuaries, coastal fish farms, tides, currents and religious sentiments were considered, in MANY public hearings.
3. The PM's office (Vajpayee) sent a detailed list of tough questions summarizing the concerns to the SSC project. The questions and the answers are published and visible on the website of the project. I am assuming here that the PM and deputy PM of the NDA government were well aware of the Ramayana, having put their lives and liberty on the line to fight for Hindu rights and justice at Ayodhya.
4. Satisfied, the GOI went ahead with the best possible configuration of the channel under the circumstances. The dredging was to be done as far away as possible from land, faaar out of sight of the coast, so that it would in no way disturb any worship or ceremonies of Hindus or anyone else.
5. The Maoists, the LTTE, the Conversionists and various other groups that stood to lose if the region was developed and security was improved, got support, presumably from the Chinese Communists and the British to obstruct the project.
6. In 2004, the GOI and TNG changed. So the political equation changed. Suddenly, the commies and the LTTE saw the opportunity to get some additional support. So the strategy changed in late 2005/2006 from "natural reef and eco-system will be disturbed, oooo! environmental disaster!" to "oldest man-made (vanara-made) structure in the universe is about to the DESTROYED"
7. In 2006 the "NASA Images" with the Photoshop editing hit the web. In early 2007, the RSS passed a Resolution condemning the project.
8. Several postors here became convinced that their whole Heritage was about to be destroyed.
Have I missed anything?
Isn't it fair to conclude that the "Hindu" opposition to this project is not based on anything factual or reasonable? Pressed on the logic behind their opposition, the postors have just become incredibly abusive, which shows that they have enough sense to know that they have painted themselves into a corner, but it remains to be seen whether they have sense to admit that and move on.
So, Mudy, there is no "scare tactic" that "The commies are coming". The fact is, the commies were there long ago, and had dug the pits. Now those who claim to represent all of "Hindus" (note: these postors seem to assume that all Hindus share their view on whether India enhance security by allowing ships to cut through the Palk Strait) have walked into the pits. As usual.
And you, Mudy, are right now the one making ad hominem attacks. I may be a "newbie" on India-Forum, but I wasn't born yesterday, and when people use rants and abuse and start quoting passages from religious epics as they say "this is my last post!" as one postor has done above, that means they have lost the argument on facts and logic.
Bottom line: There is no substance to this agitation. It is simply destroying the credibility of Hindus, and painting all of us into a corner where we are seen to be obstructing projects needed for security and economic progress of India.
Also, if there are facts and logic to discuss, then posts should contain facts and logic. not just threats against other postors.
If the aim is simply to post propaganda, that can be done by "pinning" a Petition.
It is of course up to the Admins to decide what is good for IF.
Let me repeat the sections of your post above:
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Neelan,
First remove one Makbara and Mosque from road in CP, New Delhi. Govt can't expand road because of those man made structure. And then tell Hindus to be opened minded.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Er... above, you ordered me not to represent Hindus (which I have not tried to do). Now you are ordering me to go remove mosques in New Delhi? If I cannot represent Hindus, how can I lead the charge to destroy these moques?
Also, are you saying that the "Hindu Opposition" to the SSC project off the coast of Tamil Nadu, is really because of the Hindu "not-open-mindedness" arising out of the injustices in New Dehi? So the logic is:
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin--> You don't destroy THEIR man-made structure in New Dehi, so we won't let you destroy OUR MAN-Mad(er.. Vanara-made).. I mean, "natural" ... structure off the coast of India in Tamil Nadu<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd--> Your movement is to put sand in the mouths of the children of Rameshwaram just because you have some complaint against some jerks in New Delhi?
I thought, from reading the other great postors' statements here, that the opposition was because of the atrocities against the Kanchi Sankaracharya, Placing a Statue of EVR outside a Hindu Temple, etc. etc. At least those are geographically closer to the SSC than New Delhi!
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin--> <b>I think first fix Paki, commie, SIMI, and Chini border, those who are already inside and causing problem. Why worry about those who are outside?</b><!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So then all the rest of IF can pack up, can't it? Can I have until Tuesday to "fix Paki, commie, SIMI and Chini border", please?
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin--> Read Ramayana and your vagueness will disappear. <!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ah, yes, but I have and that is why I am not being vague, unlike the respected postors here.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin--> Your scare tactics are similar to commies who scream, they are coming, they are comingâ¦..<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd--> I didn't see you saying that to the postors who threatened me and "narayanan" with the following:
1. Sending allegations to "our" government(s).
2. "Drop Dead!"
3. "Get lost!"
4. "Get off this thread!"
etc. etc.
Wonder how the fellow knew what government that is? Are the admins sharing my IP info with postors who threaten violence? In this age? Did you read about the Virginia Tech shooter? At least two of the postors here who have been abusing narayanan and me, don't send warning bells ringing to you? You deleted narayanan's post listing "Srini"'s threats, but did not delete Srini's post.
If you didn't find <b>those</b> "scary" and did not feel like you had to even warn those postors to start behaving like adults, why are you scared at being told that the Maoists (they used to call themselves "Marxist Leninists" ) of AID-India were far ahead of the RSS in opposing the project, it is only now that the "Hindus" have decided to join the Maoist bandwagon. THAT is scary to you? Wow!
From this, Mudy, I have to conclude that you are unable to separate your personal opinions about this project, which are of course very welcome anywhere, from your Admin responsibilities. Doesn't your version of the Ramayana have anything to say about that, Mudy?
What is clearly seen above is:
1. The SSC project has been seriously discussed since the 19th century.
2. In 1999, the BJP NDA government finally agreed to listen to the demands from the Tamil Nadu and Kerala and Andhra governments, (TN and Andhra were in the NDA coalition then) to push the project forward seriously. All concerns about national security (which is a driver of the project), marine sanctuaries, coastal fish farms, tides, currents and religious sentiments were considered, in MANY public hearings.
3. The PM's office (Vajpayee) sent a detailed list of tough questions summarizing the concerns to the SSC project. The questions and the answers are published and visible on the website of the project. I am assuming here that the PM and deputy PM of the NDA government were well aware of the Ramayana, having put their lives and liberty on the line to fight for Hindu rights and justice at Ayodhya.
4. Satisfied, the GOI went ahead with the best possible configuration of the channel under the circumstances. The dredging was to be done as far away as possible from land, faaar out of sight of the coast, so that it would in no way disturb any worship or ceremonies of Hindus or anyone else.
5. The Maoists, the LTTE, the Conversionists and various other groups that stood to lose if the region was developed and security was improved, got support, presumably from the Chinese Communists and the British to obstruct the project.
6. In 2004, the GOI and TNG changed. So the political equation changed. Suddenly, the commies and the LTTE saw the opportunity to get some additional support. So the strategy changed in late 2005/2006 from "natural reef and eco-system will be disturbed, oooo! environmental disaster!" to "oldest man-made (vanara-made) structure in the universe is about to the DESTROYED"
7. In 2006 the "NASA Images" with the Photoshop editing hit the web. In early 2007, the RSS passed a Resolution condemning the project.
8. Several postors here became convinced that their whole Heritage was about to be destroyed.
Have I missed anything?
Isn't it fair to conclude that the "Hindu" opposition to this project is not based on anything factual or reasonable? Pressed on the logic behind their opposition, the postors have just become incredibly abusive, which shows that they have enough sense to know that they have painted themselves into a corner, but it remains to be seen whether they have sense to admit that and move on.
So, Mudy, there is no "scare tactic" that "The commies are coming". The fact is, the commies were there long ago, and had dug the pits. Now those who claim to represent all of "Hindus" (note: these postors seem to assume that all Hindus share their view on whether India enhance security by allowing ships to cut through the Palk Strait) have walked into the pits. As usual.
And you, Mudy, are right now the one making ad hominem attacks. I may be a "newbie" on India-Forum, but I wasn't born yesterday, and when people use rants and abuse and start quoting passages from religious epics as they say "this is my last post!" as one postor has done above, that means they have lost the argument on facts and logic.
Bottom line: There is no substance to this agitation. It is simply destroying the credibility of Hindus, and painting all of us into a corner where we are seen to be obstructing projects needed for security and economic progress of India.
Also, if there are facts and logic to discuss, then posts should contain facts and logic. not just threats against other postors.
If the aim is simply to post propaganda, that can be done by "pinning" a Petition.
It is of course up to the Admins to decide what is good for IF.