Caste An European Phenomenon

[Guest]

Europe the real originator of the caste system
(hastily posted as a draft)

Introduction
This is an item which should be more explored and projected right in the faces of non-Indian historians, anthropologists, etc. and their Indian admirers and followers. The success of anti-Indian and especially anti-Hindu propaganda lies in the fact that these offenders aren’t hit at their weak spot: the grave criminal expressions of their own systems in every field throughout most of their history! Some of their unique expressions, politically and religiously, have caused mass destructions on mondial levels. In an international court of justice (UNO) record, we would have almost exclusively names of abrahamitic (and their offshoot) criminals.

The foreign missionary and military was aiming at enslavement of the subcontinent through a paralysing indoctrination of Indian culture with their own concepts. The message was that what was good was foreign, and the bad was indigenous, in simple words. The bad had to be saved, to be civilized = christianised after European social model.

But how different was the christianised Anglo-Indian concept from European social realities?
At least from the feudal period on, Europe did know a clear caste system: The elite or lords are the hereditary land owners, which are bishops, kings, warlords and noblemen. Vassals are somewhat the slaves of the land owners. And the elite all claim their authority is from God. Both secular and religious power went hand to hand to completely christianise Europe and to enslave the non-elite. Slavery was normal upto the 12th century in Europe, but serfs tied to lords were still common.
Slavery worldwide was practised by christian and muslim rulers. The colonial powers abolished slavery in the 19th century, officially. But that century old mentality didn’t vanish just in one century from their minds, mouths and manners. Political exploitation was replaced by economical and intellectual through monopolization of the resources.

The world has to de-abrahamiticize in every field, but especially socially, psychologically and academically. Too many words are loaded with abrahamitic sauces of interpretations doing grave injustice to non-abrahamitic origins. Even worse, non-abrahamitic systems are being judged against their discriminatory value system.
One of the crucial words to paralyse India is the word “caste”. But what is its origin?

Casta
Caste is a word which is non-Indian. It is derived from the Portuguese word “casta” = pure, breed, race. It is a word used in the 17th century in India. But the word and use is older:
Spanish casta, race, and Portuguese casta, race, caste. 1555, "a race of men," from L. casto "chaste," from castus "pure, cut off, separated," pp. of carere "to be cut off from" (and related to castrate), from PIE base *kes- "to cut."Application to Hindu social groups picked up in India 17c. from Port. casta "breed, race, caste," earlier casta raca "unmixed race," from the same L. word. (see dictionaries)

Hardly anybody paid attention to tracing the word and use of Casta to other parts of the world: to Latin America. “…by the early 17th Century the castas were being defined. The term castas referred originally to people of mixed ethno racial heritage and was generally derogatory. The Spanish brought a fanatical fascination about race with them when they arrived in the "New World." …. Together, the castas, the Spanish, the Natives, and the Africans formed a rigid caste system that governed the ethno racial and class based hierarchy of New Spain. The Spaniards used their elaborate system of classification to maintain social and political control. "Pure blooded" Spaniards held the top position in their constructed social and racial hierarchy, and Africans were considered most inferior. Members of the mixed classes fit into the hierarchy depending on the quantity of "tainted" blood found in their genealogy.”
http://hemi.nyu.edu/archive/studentwork/co...lson/Casta1.htm

While the system was set aside as the spanish colonies got their independence, it left profound scars in modern Latin American societies. In México up until the present day, Mexicans reject the idea of racism but are highly aware of the skin color, associating it with social status. As a result, most role models in television and media are white.
This is thus the result of the institutionalized system of racial and social stratification and segregation based on a person's heritage.

In short, the word “casta” and its loanword in English known as “caste” cannot be separated from European racial (pure versus mixed) ideas and implementations in societies, typical of the colonial powers. The situation in Latin America is a clear proof that the “caste phenomenon” is an implemented European one, and is racial and discriminatory!
This very early European racial system was transplanted in India and made wrongly as equivalent or similar to the dynamic Jana, GaNa, Gotra and Jati systems. (4 VarNa was already for centuries dead, only being mentioned to make some order, but in reality a theoretical, fossil remnant)

Europe is the birthplace of rigid thinking, speaking and behaving systems, from social behaviour (see the word “etiquette”, prescribing into details how to behave), musical performance (compare Indian to western classical musicians. The stiff body language of western musicians is perfectly expressing the distance they create towards another), psychology (see how they hide their real natural emotions behind curtains of controlled . This is the basis of much western frustration and visits to shrinks), religiously (belief in a punishing christian god; constantly threatening clergy to maintain this image), social castes (elite clearly looking down on others and exploiting them; even christianised the blacks for instance were still slaves, counting less than dogs! How differently did the British treat the Indians, or the Americans and European imperialists in both the Americas treat the native Indians? ), colour issue (western elite is whiter than their non-elites, a clear sign they are using to show that they don’t have to work on fields; the whiteness is emphasized later in the decadent periods with the use of cosmetics; black-white thinking coupled to race theories are introduced and indoctrinated in India through the British controlled educational institutes), political offshoots of “theocracies” (totalitarian rule, fascism, nazism; unknown to non-abrahamitic systems, these do not need to be explained), religion (persecutions, holy wars, burning of witches and blacks, annihilation of tribes, etc.), women status (the woman didn’t have much rights save for giving sons, till the 20th century; till the end of the sixties women in western countries had subordinate positions, totally no high positions in church-business-politics, much under the laws of male christians), missionary zeal (showing no sign of respect for others in any sense, they fanatically, sent by the divine as they want to think, impose their own rigid systems to others), etc.

Conclusion
I do not believe that a westerner can teach India any lesson in any of these matters. He rather should look into the mirror and after feeling deep shame for being a proud follower of this oppressive system, he should be taking some responsibility not to point any finger again at others and show some respect.
No system is perfect, thinking that the own is the best is not harmful, but denigrating the other, which is a clear sign of severe ignorance and bad self reflection (minority complex), has to be condemned and stopped immediately.
The christians and muslims clearly have huge records of grave criminal and murderous activities towards their own co-believers (sectarian wars) against each other (crusades etc.) and more barbaric against other areas outside the pale of their “blessed or promised” lands.

That westerners and their non-westerner followers dominate the academia doesn’t mean that they hold the truth. The word casta and its use socially with political and religious and above all racial flavours were already a practical reality elsewhere, in Latin America with the upper caste Peninsulares or Spanish and Portuguese. The racist theories of northern imperialist Europe, has its origins in southern imperialist Europe. Both are deeply rooted in christianity. Both geographical areas gave birth to fascism (northern had German totalitarian nazism, southern had Italian Mussolini’s and Spanish Franco’s systems).


Thus, standard books and their authors do not give the whole picture and certainly aren't free from the outdated methodologies applied to the study of non-western cultures, languages and their (historical) traditions.


P.S. there are many westerners, including academics, who have do have a balanced view. But they are not the dominant voices.

[Guest]

Role of British in Caste System of India

How British invented the term 'scheduled caste', with the sensus of Indian population, which itself was full of flaws in 1871/2.

[Guest]

from above paper:

<span style='color:blue'>The caste system had been a fascination of the British since their arrival in India. Coming from a society that was divided by class, the British attempted to equate the caste system to the class system. </span>As late as 1937 Professor T. C. Hodson stated that: "Class and caste stand to each other in the relation of family to species. The general classification is by classes, the detailed one by castes. The former represents the external, the latter the internal view of the social organization." The difficulty with definitions such as this is that class is based on political and economic factors, caste is not. In fairness to Professor Hodson, by the time of his writing, caste had taken on many of the characteristics that he ascribed to it and that his predecessors had ascribed to it but <span style='font-size:14pt;line-height:100%'>during the 19th century caste was not what the British believed it to be. It did not constitute a rigid description of the occupation and social level of a given group and it did not bear any real resemblance to the class system.</span>

However, this will be dealt with later in this essay. At present, the main concern is that the <span style='font-size:14pt;line-height:100%'>British saw caste as a way to deal with a huge population by breaking it down into discrete chunks with specific characteristics. Moreover, as will be seen later in this paper, it appears that the caste system extant in the late 19th and early 20th century has been altered as a result of British actions so that it increasingly took on the characteristics that were ascribed to by the British.</span>

[Guest]

<span style='font-size:14pt;line-height:100%'>The word caste is not a word that is indigenous to India. It originates in the Portuguese word casta which means race,breed, race or lineage. However, during the 19th century, the term caste increasingly took on the connotations of the word race</span>. Thus, from the very beginning of western contact with the subcontinent European constructions have been imposed on Indian systems and institutions.

To fully appreciate the caste system one must step away from the definitions imposed by Europeans and look at the system as a whole, including the religious beliefs that are an integral part of it. To the British, viewing the caste system from the outside and on a very superficial level, it appeared to be a static system of social ordering that allowed the ruling class or Brahmins, to maintain their power over the other classes.

<span style='font-size:14pt;line-height:100%'>What the British failed to realize was that Hindus existed in a different cosmological frame than did the British. The concern of the true Hindu was not his ranking economically within society but rather his ability to regenerate on a higher plane of existence during each successive life.</span>

Perhaps the plainest verbalization of this attitude was stated by a 20th century Hindu of one of the lower castes who stated: "Everything lies in the hands of God. We hope to go to the top, but our Karma (Action) binds us to this level." If not for the concept of reincarnation, this would be a totally fatalistic attitude but if one takes into account the notion that one's present life is simply one of many, then this fatalistic component is limited if not eliminated. Therefore, for the Hindu, acceptance of present status and the taking of ritual actions to improve status in the next life is not terribly different in theory to the attitudes of the poor in western society.

The aim of the poor in the west is to improve their lot in the space of a single life time. The aim of the lower castes in India is to improve their position over the space of many lifetimes. It should also be borne in mind that an entire caste could rise through the use of conquest or through service to rulers.Thus, it may be seen that within traditional Indian society the caste system was not static either within the material or metaphysical plane of existence.

With the introduction of European and particulary British systems to India, the caste system began to modify. This was a natural reaction of Indians attempting to adjust to the new regime and to make the most of whatever opportunities may have been presented to them. Moreover, with the apparent dominance exhibited by British science and medicine there were movements that attempted to adapt traditional social systems to fit with the new technology.

Men such as Ram Mohan Roy, Swami Dayananda, and Ramkrishna started movements that, to one degree or another, attempted to explore new paths that would allow them and their people to live more equitably within British India. Roy in particular sits this description with his notion that the recognition of human rights was consistent with Hindu thought and the Hinduism could welcome external influences so long as they were not contrary to reason. While it is granted that the present paper is not the appropriate venue to explore such movements, they must be noted so that an impression of Indian submissiveness in the face of British intrusion may be avoided. There was a dynamic interplay between the British and Indians that had a profound effect on both societies.

[Guest]

Thank you, Bodhi, for the link to the paper!

[Guest]

Sometimes we take pride in Caste system ....sometimes we call it European Invention. Is it not very ridiculous? <!--emo&--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo-->

It is better if we focus on rectifying the mistakes committed by our own ancestors than blaming Europeans, Islam, Christianity or Americans for everything which went wrong in our history.

Caste System must be consigned to DUST-BIN if it was invented by the Britishers/ Europeans? But read the RSS supremo Sudarshan's interview in Outlook before doing that. He is an staunch supporter of Caste system. <!--emo&--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tongue.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tongue.gif' /><!--endemo-->

[Guest]

<!--QuoteBegin-viduur+Oct 2 2006, 10:33 AM-->QUOTE(viduur @ Oct 2 2006, 10:33 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->Caste System must be consigned to DUST-BIN if it was invented by the Britishers? But read the RSS supremo Sudarshan's interview in Outlook before doing that. He is an staunch supporter of Caste system.
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Nothing can be farther from truth. Go ahead and quote what he has said.

[Guest]

<!--emo&<_<--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/dry.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='dry.gif' /><!--endemo--> No ...no I said very clearly what I wanted to say
'If wishes were horses, beggars would ride'.
To work for an ideal system is every1 priority but r u doing so? Now with scheduled caste and other reservations as enshrined in Constitution and embodied by the politicians, casteism has come to stay.
<span style='font-size:14pt;line-height:100%'><span style='font-family:Geneva'>Under the circumstances and with the ground realities of today, how will you minus the caste system to perfect Hinduism</span></span>?

[Guest]

<!--QuoteBegin-Capt Manmohan Kumar+Oct 2 2006, 08:09 PM-->QUOTE(Capt Manmohan Kumar @ Oct 2 2006, 08:09 PM)<!--QuoteEBegin--><!--emo&<_<--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/dry.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='dry.gif' /><!--endemo--> No ...no I said very clearly what I wanted to say
'If wishes were horses, beggars would ride'.
To work for an ideal system is every1 priority but r u doing so? Now with scheduled caste and other reservations as enshrined in Constitution and embodied by the politicians, casteism has come to stay.
<span style='font-size:14pt;line-height:100%'><span style='font-family:Geneva'>Under the circumstances and with the ground realities of today, how will you minus the caste system to perfect Hinduism</span></span>?
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You know very well since long what I am doing my Dear VM.

No need for sermons ....rather debate the issue.

I don't diffrentiate between 'Brahminism' & 'Dalitism'. Both are the two sides of the same coin and represent Anti-Hinduism mostly.

[Guest]

<span style='color:blue'>Don’t Divert. Quote RSS Chief Sudarshan, where he is supporting Caste System or Casteism to stay on. Also as per the commonly accepted Etiquettes of posting, do provide the source URL you pick the quote from.</span>

[Guest]

<!--QuoteBegin-viduur+Oct 2 2006, 08:14 PM-->QUOTE(viduur @ Oct 2 2006, 08:14 PM)<!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-Capt Manmohan Kumar+Oct 2 2006, 08:09 PM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Capt Manmohan Kumar @ Oct 2 2006, 08:09 PM)<!--QuoteEBegin--><!--emo&<_<--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/dry.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='dry.gif' /><!--endemo--> No ...no I said very clearly what I wanted to say
'If wishes were horses, beggars would ride'.
To work for an ideal system is every1 priority but r u doing so? Now with scheduled caste and other reservations as enshrined in Constitution and embodied by the politicians, casteism has come to stay.
<span style='font-size:14pt;line-height:100%'><span style='font-family:Geneva'>Under the circumstances and with the ground realities of today, how will you minus the caste system to perfect Hinduism</span></span>?
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You know very well since long what I am doing my Dear VM.

No need for sermons ....rather debate the issue.

I don't diffrentiate between 'Brahminism' & 'Dalitism'. Both are the two sides of the same coin and represent Anti-Hinduism mostly.
[right][snapback]58352[/snapback][/right]
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--emo&--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo--> Who is giving sermons? 'ulta chor kotwal ko dante!
<span style='color:red'><span style='font-size:14pt;line-height:100%'>I have asked 2 pertinent questions; instead of answering u r skirting round the issue.</span></span>

[Guest]

Viduur,

Repeat:

<span style='color:blue'>Quote RSS Chief Sudarshan, where he is supporting Caste System or Casteism to stay on. Also as per the commonly accepted Etiquettes of posting, do provide the source URL you pick the quote from.

Captain, pls hold on and dont divert the focus of thread just for now, which is 'RSS and its approach for/against Casteism', as started by viduur.</span>

Let us see how much fact viduur had with him when he alleged RSS for supporting Casteism.

[Guest]

viduur, Gone?

Just another example of how lies are manufactured to malign Hindutva.

[Guest]

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin--><span style='font-size:14pt;line-height:100%'>VHP rejects `varnashrama', seeks end to untouchability </span>

"It has no sanction in the Vedas and dharma sasthras" 
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Alien aggressions could have led to practice of untouchability
Heads of mutts asked to give `manthra deeksha' to all
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Erode: The fifth State Hindu Resurgence Conference organised by the Vishwa Hindu Parishad (VHP) and the Grama Koil Poojarigal Peravai has rejected `varnashrama' and sought an end to the practice of untouchability.

Addressing the conference at the CNC College grounds on Sunday, VHP international president Ashok Singhal said untouchability had no sanction in the Vedas and dharma sasthras. Ancient history and mythology had no record on it. Alien aggressions could have led to the practice. He called upon the heads of mutts to give `manthra deeksha' to all without discrimination.

<span style='color:red'>Mr. Ashok Singhal said the VHP was outrightly rejecting `varnashrama dharma,' supposedly written in Manusmrithi, in the interest of consolidating Hindu unity.</span>

http://www.hindu.com/2006/03/20/stories/...330400.htm
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<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->RSS National Executive Member Ram Madhav has criticised politicians for ''thriving on caste differences.''  Delivering the keynote address at a function here last evening, at which a 12-volume Malayalam version of the collected works of the Former RSS 'Sarsanghchalak' M S Golwalkar were released, <span style='color:red'>Mr Madhav claimed there was no justification for the caste system. </span>

http://www.asianetglobal.com/asianet/2004/...Id=14&newsId=93
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<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->RSS Chief Sudarshan, who spoke after Dhasal, said, "<span style='color:red'>The Sangh does not believe in caste</span>...We told our people don’t worry about caste, let it be. The feeling of superiority or inferiority should end. Call leaders of all castes and ensure that they have their meals together...We say we all are Hindus. We strive for Hindu consolidation, transcending castes.” "

http://www.indianexpress.com/story/11724.html

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[Guest]

<!--emo&:blow--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/blow.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='blow.gif' /><!--endemo--> Bodhi,
hum hold kiye baithen hain
Viduur vada karke bhool gaye!
Gone with the wind!
The poor guy wanted to sell his book. Pl do buy his book. Don't forget:
'angry man is hungry man'.

[Guest]

<!--QuoteBegin-Capt Manmohan Kumar+Oct 2 2006, 02:20 PM-->QUOTE(Capt Manmohan Kumar @ Oct 2 2006, 02:20 PM)<!--QuoteEBegin--><!--emo&:blow--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/blow.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='blow.gif' /><!--endemo--> Bodhi,
hum hold kiye baithen hain
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<!--emo&--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo--> Ek jabardast joke yaad aya Captain. kabhi fursat se...

[Guest]

Arguments on caste almost always follow predictable patterns. Lets all stick to topic. Just to close this topic on Sangh's postion on caste the foll link will be helpful.

http://www.hvk.org/specialrepo/mms/index.html

[Guest]

<!--QuoteBegin-viduur+Oct 2 2006, 08:03 PM-->QUOTE(viduur @ Oct 2 2006, 08:03 PM)<!--QuoteEBegin--> Sometimes we take pride in Caste system ....sometimes we call it European Invention. Is it not very ridiculous? 

It is better if we focus on rectifying the mistakes committed by our own ancestors than blaming Europeans, Islam, Christianity or Americans for everything which went wrong in our history. <!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Let me be clear on this: the caste system is an European invention. The word caste is coupled with race and colour of the skin. Thinking along these lines is casteist thinking. This is alien to Varna and Jati. The European aristocrats and patrician looked down upon the plebejan, because their skin was slightly darker and rougher due to being exposed to the elements, which meant hard work for their masters.

No society anytime in any part of the world was ever classless. It is a marxist fantasy, which they couldn't put into practice everytime they took power. (their form of government was state dictatorship with special rights for a few priviliged. George Orwell's 1984 or Aldous Huxley's A Brave New World are clear warnings in this direction, in which the American military complex and other parallel systems also have moved from the cold war on)


European way of thinking/life based on exclusiveness: you are a christian or not. Within christianity you are a catholic or not. Within catholicism, you are roman or not. (religious casteism) Your are either a patrician or plebejan (social casteism)
And this exclusiveness was not only defended with force, but also executed with that as a way to punish people with other thinking.

Indians, like everyone in the world, do know exclusiveness too, no one can deny this. But their vision on Varna was not based upon race or skin colour. Neither did they disallow differences of thinking or classes. They did mark, however, areas which were outside the pale of ritual/cultural sacredness from the point of view of Dvijas, which had a special meaning for Brahmanas less or not for other Dvijas.
But Hindus never disallowed people from non-sacred areas to become accepted within their own societies, as long as they didn't disrespect Hindu customs. As long as Akbar didn't disrespect Hindus he didn't have trouble woth them.
Now imagine a foreigner with a different system becoming a ruler or dominant in (feudal, monarchial or democratic) European countries; that is a fata morgana, even remoter than the marxist fantasy.

The Indian class system did change many times in history. Standard works, based upon western and indian 'scholarship', are never referring to the dynamic process or changes. The classified are never the same in any period, the name may be. Many 'upper' classes lost their status during Muslim and British rules. But also before!
In the Muslim period, before the British came, Hindu society witnessed another social revolution, called the egalitarian Bhakti movement of which the roots lay in the south much earlier, relatively untouched by the disturbances and changes caused by foreign incursions. Perhaps, one can say, that the Bhakti movement rekindled the north again with original Hinduness. (this role the south has played more times, also militarily!)

There is nothing like this Bhakti phenomenon in western societies, except for the French revolution in the political sense.
When the British came, large parts of the subcontinent was under Hindu dominance. But the British broke the backbone of Hindu society, not militarily, but through their learning infrastructure, creation of pseudo-Hindus, control over manuscripts (thus control over the written culture as against fast decreasing oral sources), etc. No Muslim ruler had this impact on Hindu society. Brutality can be opposed, but parallyzing the mentality with all means will have more time to recover from. It will take even more time with the like a time bomb brought up pseudo-Hindu watch dogs.

[Guest]

Hi all,

This is my first post. I find this thread very interesting. I also believe there are two sides to this, one positive and other negative.

The good thing:

Caste is European invention, comes from the word casta, I suppose. So it has nothing to do with class system prevalent in Europe and elsewhere, but rather a social structure based on varnashrama Dharma. VD is all about division of labor.

The bad thing:

That said, nobody practices VD anymore. It has degraded to casteism. Most Indians are obssessed with skin color, which reflects in numerous matrimonial ads (like wanted fair, good-looking woman), or in social situations (such as, "your baby has a good color" etc.).

Conclusion:

It doesn't matter whether caste is a European invention. Bottom line, Indians are practicing casteism, not varnashrama Dharma. So we should educate people on VD to elimiate casteism, rather than wonder whether caste is European. Knowing it's European doesn't solve our problem, because India is teh only country where people (officially) have castes. We ought to worry about that.

Hope nobody's offended.

[Guest]

maruti,

welcome to the forum, hope you will enjoy here and find this forum useful.

Just to mention what Maharshi Dayananda Saraswati had once said, "the present durdasha of Hindu samaj is result of the 'abhishap of its less privilaged sections - its women and sudras.' "

There should not be any doubt about this, that we have got to do everything possible for the upliftment of those who are left behind, and bring about the sense of equality and unity. But this can only be done in an environment of samrasata, mutual respect, and not by the means of hatred and malice.

Truth always liberates. We got to indeed discover how the casteism is originated, who is to be blamed for it, and then find out the way out. Lies give birth to more lies. No great movement is founded on lies.