Do not get me wrong, I love democracy and I believe that in the long term only a democracy can ensure prosperity to a nation.
But what we have in India is anything, but the rule of the people.
India is mobocracy, it is the rule of mobs on the basis of caste, religion (minority of course, remember we Hindus should be secular to the death) and perhaps regional.
This mobocracy is controlled by corrupt, criminal, petty men (MPs) who decides amongst themselve who will be the bigger shark (the PM), so the essence is that we vote for them in good faith and they would do what they like once elected to power.
Supplementing them is the bureacracy, a motley group of corrupt men who are trained to jump through hoops under threats of transfers and promises of loot.
And whitewashing the entire show is the media. The Indian Media is a whore on paper. First to sell itself to the highest bidder (and already purchased by the Leftists), the Media's first duty is to safeguard and promote itself while also serving the same establishment (the Congress) in power.
Then comes the auxulliaries like the Police (who serve the will of the politicans) and so on.
What I'am saying is that the whole system is corrupt to the core. Even if a few honest men make an attempt to get rid of this disease, they would stand no chance against the combined forces of the establishment.
What we need a revolutionary coup, with the army and the judiciary standing behind us, that would be the only way to deal with this hopeless system. If such a corrupt system is to be destroyed, we must shed our complusions of non violence and engage in mass executions to prevent them from rising to power again. We would need men of integrity who could undertake such a venture without themselves getting corrupt in the process. Only one such man is visible in our political horizon today: Narendra Modi.
We must infiltrate our children into the army and the judiciary for this purpose, with this agenda in mind.
We need men, fearless of votebank compulsions, who could implement ruthless decisions to cure our nation. Men who do not crave world approval or prizes (unlike Vajpayee) Men who can guide the nation above votebank politics (unlike the Congress) Men who can look the serpent in the eye and defeat it (Islamic Jihad)
The entire establishment needs to be destroyed and rendered to ashes, enough of old men, enough of their so called 'experience', their apathy, their corruption. India is a young nation and we need ferociousness young people to guide her controls.
So if Narendra Modi could become the dictator of India for a term , lets say 15 years, would you support him?
07-20-2006, 06:21 AM (This post was last modified: 07-20-2006, 06:23 AM by Husky.)
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->If such a corrupt system is to be destroyed, we must shed our complusions of non violence and<b> engage in mass executions </b>to prevent them from rising to power again.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->No thanks. By the way, Modi had nothing to do with the Gujarat riots. He was merely another shocked helpless spectator, but one the p-secs got away with pinning the blame on.
Communism is a ruthless dictatorship that is more than willing to engage in mass executions. Christianity throughout history formed ruthless dictatorships that are famous for their mass executions. Islam did the same.
I hardly think we need that sort of thing in India, especially not in Hindu India. We've had enough of Islamic and Portuguese tyranny and would-be communist tyranny.
What we need is governance that knows to and is willing to punish crimes (small ones up to large ones - from dawaganda to missionaries to forced conversions to terrorism) with the fitting punishment due the crime. We also need a government that can prevent such crimes (ruthless with terrorism and forced conversions, whilst nipping missionary activities and dawaganda in the bud by expelling any who infringe on the rights of others). We need a loyal police, army and intelligence force that can carry out these requirements. Corruption out, organisation planning and implementation in.
There are few crimes that warrant immediate death and destruction, so applying 'mass execution' as any kind of solution seems very scary indeed.
I think we do need a coup and controlled democracy for 15-20 years, followed by precidential democracy with voting rights by qualification (not necessarily educational).
07-20-2006, 08:36 AM (This post was last modified: 07-20-2006, 08:36 AM by agnivayu.)
India could definetly use a strong nationalist leader, dictator or otherwise who can bring the rapid change in direction and quick decision making that's needed to forge a superpower.
07-20-2006, 11:17 AM (This post was last modified: 07-20-2006, 11:25 AM by Husky.)
Opening post probably meant 'executions of terrorists' (Islamic, communist, NE militants) - I agree with that. But the terrorists need to be captured first. And we do need a powerful government to get that done.
But no Hindu party is ever going to become undemocratic, the only ones that will (as Mudy pointed out in post 4) are already in power: the Christo-communist alliance we currently have. They are also maintaining their power by lying about 'hindu fundamentalism', making ignorant Hindus think that a 'hindu fundamentalist' government might take away the pluralistic character of India. Thus the average Hindu votes the way of Congress, playing right into their hands.
We definitely need proper, representative governance, not one that uses sly tactics to get itself elected instead of what would have been the natural victor. We need a Hindu party that will undo the p-sec mantra that 'secularism' means protection of minorities. Secularism doesn't mean that - it means equal treatment of all (non-terrorist) religious and non-religious groups in the eyes of the law. No more minority favouritism at the cost of the majority whilst undermining majority rights.
If all works fairly, I don't think we even need a coup to get a Hindu party elected. What we need is people to open their eyes to the abyss that our current government is dragging us into. Tell all Hindus you know what the situation is under Congress rule which appeases ChristoIslamics and communists; and then tell them to pass on the word.
A coup is only necessary if the Congress with its helpers in India's Christo-Islamist power circles and the Indology depts used illegitimate methods to stay in power. Say by framing Godhra and now the Mumbai incidents on 'Hindu fundamentalists' for what is in reality the handiwork of India's own Jihadist Ummah; and thus getting the popular vote of even the average Hindu. (Consider the communist success in Nepal.) In that case a Hindu leader, with a constructive vision and no tolerance for intolerance, is most welcome to stay in power beyond the required period for a democracy.
<!--QuoteBegin-Husky+Jul 20 2006, 11:17 AM-->QUOTE(Husky @ Jul 20 2006, 11:17 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->Opening post probably meant 'executions of terrorists' (Islamic, communist, NE militants) - I agree with that. But the terrorists need to be captured first. And we do need a powerful government to get that done.
But no Hindu party is ever going to become undemocratic, the only ones that will (as Mudy pointed out in post 4) are already in power: the Christo-communist alliance we currently have. They are also maintaining their power by lying about 'hindu fundamentalism', making ignorant Hindus think that a 'hindu fundamentalist' government might take away the pluralistic character of India. Thus the average Hindu votes the way of Congress, playing right into their hands.
We definitely need proper, representative governance, not one that uses sly tactics to get itself elected instead of what would have been the natural victor. We need a Hindu party that will undo the p-sec mantra that 'secularism' means protection of minorities. Secularism doesn't mean that - it means equal treatment of all (non-terrorist) religious and non-religious groups in the eyes of the law. No more minority favouritism at the cost of the majority whilst undermining majority rights.
If all works fairly, I don't think we even need a coup to get a Hindu party elected. What we need is people to open their eyes to the abyss that our current government is dragging us into. Tell all Hindus you know what the situation is under Congress rule which appeases ChristoIslamics and communists; and then tell them to pass on the word.
A coup is only necessary if the Congress with its helpers in India's Christo-Islamist power circles and the Indology depts used illegitimate methods to stay in power. Say by framing Godhra and now the Mumbai incidents on 'Hindu fundamentalists' for what is in reality the handiwork of India's own Jihadist Ummah; and thus getting the popular vote of even the average Hindu. (Consider the communist success in Nepal.) In that case a Hindu leader, with a constructive vision and no tolerance for intolerance, is most welcome to stay in power beyond the required period for a democracy.
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Yes, I meant mass executions of terrorists and also a few of the current politicals charlatans.
I would also support fullscale deportation of all muslims in India to Pakistan as a completion of the original partition. That would involve a war with Pakistan and defeat. A democracy may be able to engage in a war and win, but it would take a right wing dicatorship to ship all muslims enmass to Pakistan, roughsleding over domestic and international objectionns.
07-20-2006, 06:14 PM (This post was last modified: 07-20-2006, 06:16 PM by Husky.)
Post 8 (chandramoulee):
A longer term for a constructive party that comes into power is all I really want: they should be in charge for long enough to finish implementing and setting in motion the required changes to make India stable again and to undo the constant brainwashing in education, the stupid reservations that are not going to make us smarter nor do the nation any good, the constant appeasement of minorities by granting them more rights which specifically trample on our rights, media lies. If these things can be achieved in say 10 or 15 years, I'd like to either (a) have certainty that the party will be re-elected to finish its set tasks or (b) somehow extends its stay in power (preferably legally so that it is recognised as a legitimate government) until such time as it finishes everything and ensures that the changes can't be undone if say Congress succeeds it.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->He will only start another dynasty !<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->That is so very true, especially in India. Have to avoid that pitfall.
India has to reform democracy to survive as a nation
India's democracy has become more a publicity stunt than reality. Indian parliamentary system is making it ungovernable. The root of the problem is our inability to adapt to the changing situations. The growth of regional politics and caste politcis bad for the country. It is not bad because we have a lot of new players in the field. It is because there is no vision other than to prove their caste people that they got some reservation for them. We have to look for solutions beyond our constitution that will work for our nation. We have copied most of our constitution from Britain but that system failed miserably. India has become ungovernable. When Congress was the only party, it looked as if the system was functioning but in reality it was not. The power was getting concentrated and the country had to depend on the whims of Gandhi family. After NDA and UPA experiments, we realize that the system is not functioning.
The legislature, executive, and the judiciary are 3 important pillars of democracy. In our current setup, they are not independent ensuring checks and balances against each other. The coterie of party leaders decide to give party tickets for MP/MLA elections. The elected members are loyal to this coterie but not to the people who elected them. The executive is part of the legislature. The elected MP/MLAs have no other job to do other than to wait for the grace of the party leader(s) and become minister. As we see more and more, the good of the nation is the last thing on the mind of elected representatives. The parties try to figure out how to build caste/religious coalitions to win the next election. The judiciary, and the law enforcement are in total control of the coterie of ruling party.
As a first step to reform our democracy, we need to cut the power of party leaders and give the power to people to elect who represent their party. This is a concept similar to "Primaries" in several developed nations. Every voter can register to be a member of a party (only one party) or independent. An independent voter can choose which party he chooses to vote in during primary elections. More than one candidate can run for each party during these primary elections. The party members choose one among them to represent their party. This will cut the power of brokers or coterie. This the KEY to reform our democracy.
As a second step, we have to encourage debate among our would be representatives and let them share their ideas and thoughts on TV to help people know their representatives. In my view, we will not elect mafia dons if we are given a chance to see them and hear them on TV. The people also can choose a better candidate to represent the party rather than a criminal selected by Laoo or Mulyam Singhs of the world.
As a third step, let us introduce elections to law enforcement including important positions such as police chiefs, judges and public prosecutors. We need people who have strong ideas and we need to make them independent not a toy in the hands of our politicians. Our law enforcement does not serve the interests of the people but the interests of political leaders. We have to cut their nexus.
As a fourth step, we need to elect Rajya Sabha members directly but the Rajya sabha will have equal number of representatives from each state to treat all the states equally. The Lok Sabha will be have representatives proportional to the population of a state where as Rajya sabha will have equal number of representative from each state. By this, even a small state can have a voice instead of being drowned by larger state such as U.P. The mebers of Rajya Sabha will be elected by all the people of a state.
As a fifth step, let us seperate the executive and legislature where each branch will excercise checks and balances against the other branch. In order to achieve this, we need to elect Prime Minister or Chief Minister directly and give him the power to select cabinet outside of the legislature (Lok Sabha/Rajya Sabha). The legislature will approve the selection of each member of the cabinet. The legislature has to approve any legislation put forward by the PM/CM. The PM/CM can veto any legislation put forward by the legislature.The legislator will now look for the interests of his own constituents but PM/CM will look out the larger interests of country/state.
The constitution can also have other measures such as anti-nepotism to prevent appointment of relative, term limits to prevent PM/CM being elected more than 2 terms, and other measures to improve our democracy. The middle class has to really strive to achieve these changes. This will really provide us a stable democracy where the legislature can splinter based on regional or caste interests but can act as a pressure to represent their local constituents rather than plotical masters. Since each party will elect the representative, they have to work hard to establish their party credentials and would be willing to accomodate all groups within the party and the constituents.
Post 10 (Vijayk):
Your suggestions are very good to ensure proper governance in a democracy and could work well if implemented within an India devoid of certain other difficulties.
Communism does not seek democratic government (it is a fundamentally undemocratic ideology like Islam and Christianity, that similarly merely pretends democracy until it can ensure more for itself). Therefore, even though our communist-backed Congress appears to be elected democratically, I suspect that they have been cheating to get themselves elected through propaganda diffused via the media and through leverage from other countries.
Even when the BJP was in power last, all the Congress and its communist and p-sec machinery did was try and throw a negative light and fundamentalist spin on everything the legitimate government was doing. They kept important facts hidden (temple evidence at Ayodhya for example) and manufactured 'facts' to suit their agenda.
For your suggestions to work properly, we should ideally start with a situation where we do not have the other three problems (that we are currently facing) interfering with our elections or the government once elected. They make the situation in India far trickier and messier than merely having to deal with corrupt governance in India.
For instance, the pro-minority-only government we have today certainly wouldn't want a judicial system that would rule against their minority-appeasement. Nor would they want a law enforcement that would actually act on intelligence and prevent or contain terrorist acts. This would defeat their purpose. Therefore, your ideas for keeping the three aspects of a democracy separated would be the last ones they would want implemented. Communism (or the current communist-backed p-sec government) doesn't want 3 separately functioning legal bodies that keep each other in check - no, they'd ideally like one, and if they can't have one, they'll have to pretend they have 3 but make them function in unison and in accord with them as they do now.
It is indeed a sad ordeal when a citizen of a country advocates dictatorship.
But India is heading towards becoming a fiasco. Only thing that can save us is Polit Bureau style Bhagva Dictatorship.
But the chances are, we may very well get a naïve and idiotic dictator. Then what?
In past we had kings who displayed terrible lack of foresight. I sure do hope we can get a visionary dictator who can put stop to non-sense jokers from Bengal, Bihar to all over India.
But yes, anything (except IslamoâCommie Junta) would be better than this democracy crap that is going on in India.
While worrying about the state of India,I used to think that our politicians have little stake in this country because a) their moneys are in swiss banks and b) their children are settled abroad in cushy jobs.
On reflection I feel I was only partially correct. At least their children seem to be worried about this country though their fathers themselves feel they have little stake in this country.
Otherwise <i>this site</i> would have become extinct long ago !
What I am about to say is not anything new.. This has been said many times before. I feel this needs to be said again.
What if the Congress and the NDA come together--at least for the duration-until this Country is lifted up by its bootstraps?
The numbers of both these parties in the present Parliament will give them a good majority. This will put an end to the Commies dictating terms and thus be in the way of all progress.
After all they are <i>playing</i> democracy only to wreck it from within !
The NDA may be justified in putting certain conditions such as a) getting rid of the present Dynasty b) agreeing to a common minimum programme the main feature of which will be the State treating Hindus as human beings and stopping the pampering of ANY religion -minority or otherwise.
The result of getting away from the left influence will free our Historians to teach our History afresh thus putting some pride into the young minds about our past and getting rid of the Aryan/Dravidian divide in a very short period of one generation.
This is bound to change the face of the South-atleast Tamilnadu.
Not being dependent on minority votes to retain power (after all power is given to the politicians only for doing good to the polity in general) the present behaviour of our politicos may change for the better.
After having exhibited good governance for one term there is every possibility of their getting re-elected.
Before the nature of the rule and law, shouldn't one mull over the nature of people, their shared vision, and the purpose? <b>The only purpose </b>seems to be appeasement (all around), tolerating the intolerant and taking pride in being a domesticated "pet" of <b>other powers </b>(and powers to be) - military, religious, political etc, except for the "people of bharatam".
Perhaps, a better question: Does India deserve freedom and independence? It is working for very few, but majority seems to have no clue. Freedom/Independence concepts and ensuing purpose, 60 yrs ago, seemed valid and workable, but does it still hold valid? Or those concepts completely gone?
If not, why do we deserve freedom and independence and for what purpose? Then we can see the nature of the rule...
If the only purpose is as stated above, does not matter what the heck it is that is lording over us.
<!--QuoteBegin-Husky+Jul 20 2006, 07:28 PM-->QUOTE(Husky @ Jul 20 2006, 07:28 PM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->Post 10 (Vijayk):
Your suggestions are very good to ensure proper governance in a democracy and could work well if implemented within an India devoid of certain other difficulties.
Communism does not seek democratic government (it is a fundamentally undemocratic ideology like Islam and Christianity, that similarly merely pretends democracy until it can ensure more for itself). Therefore, even though our communist-backed Congress appears to be elected democratically, I suspect that they have been cheating to get themselves elected through propaganda diffused via the media and through leverage from other countries.
Even when the BJP was in power last, all the Congress and its communist and p-sec machinery did was try and throw a negative light and fundamentalist spin on everything the legitimate government was doing. They kept important facts hidden (temple evidence at Ayodhya for example) and manufactured 'facts' to suit their agenda.
For your suggestions to work properly, we should ideally start with a situation where we do not have the other three problems (that we are currently facing) interfering with our elections or the government once elected. They make the situation in India far trickier and messier than merely having to deal with corrupt governance in India.
For instance, the pro-minority-only government we have today certainly wouldn't want a judicial system that would rule against their minority-appeasement. Nor would they want a law enforcement that would actually act on intelligence and prevent or contain terrorist acts. This would defeat their purpose. Therefore, your ideas for keeping the three aspects of a democracy separated would be the last ones they would want implemented. Communism (or the current communist-backed p-sec government) doesn't want 3 separately functioning legal bodies that keep each other in check - no, they'd ideally like one, and if they can't have one, they'll have to pretend they have 3 but make them function in unison and in accord with them as they do now.
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Thanks.
The first and foremost is to cut the power brokers such as SONIA/MULYAM/LALOO/Advani. It also empowers good people to go and fight out without any allegiance to these crap leaders but dedicated to a cause. If they don't deliver, they are history. Sometimes, it pains me to see good people lose because there is SWEEP against his/her party. Imagine, you may not like COMMIES but like your MP/MLA. You can vote for him as long as the PM/CM is not a COMMIE. The parliamentary system does not provide that facility. You are not electing executive and legislature seperately.
There is one serious obstacle to proposed union of NDA and UPA. UPA has created a false and dishonest image of NDA, anti-muslim party. As such if UPA partners with NDA then muslim vote bank will turn against UPA. Appeasing muslims is all UPA does.
India had been very unlucky when it comes to leadership. People like Gandhi and Nehru have screwed India big time.
One reader boasted rightly: âWithin 3 hours of the blasts, long queues of blood donating volunteers were seen outside various hospitals, where most of the injured were admitted. By 12 midnight, the hospital had to issue a notification that blood banks were full and they didn't require any more blood. The next day, attendance at schools and office was close to 100 per cent, trains and buses were packed to the brim, and the crowds were back.â
An editorial chimed in: History has shown more than once that terror or adversity will not stop India's financial capital in its tracks. Bruised by blasts, rocked by riots and submerged by floods, a weary and battle-scarred Mumbai has shown the resilience to get back to business several times over.
A mere week later Mumbai and India is already retreating into its comfortable cocoon of placid lassitude to wait nonchalantly for the next attack to occur; and when that happens it will only transiently interrupt this state of blissful complacence. The vicious cycle will go on and on.
Resilience is a much-bandied term that needs further scrutiny and exploration. Resilience cannot and must not be mistaken as the end point. Nor should it be a subterfuge for apathetic resignation or a camouflage for pusillanimity. Only when genuine resilience is coupled with decisive action to abort further attacks can this be an admirable quality.
To the Mumbaikars in particular and all Indians in general I have a few words. Since this ghastly bombing, people have been showering praises on you, extolling your moral virtues for not letting this attack degenerate into a Hindu-Muslim conflict, acclaiming your practical efficiency in getting things back on track and eulogizing your empathetic traits.
Well-deserved appreciation, no doubt and sweet music to your ears. But let me confront you with the harsh reality by asking you some uncomfortable questions.
Have you conveyed a firm, effective message of deterrence to these evildoers?
Have you maintained a hawk-like vigilance on the subversive activities of those who wish to harm us?
Obviously not, for the attacks continue to reoccur at regular intervals.
By maintaining communal amity during these trying times you have thwarted an important agenda of these criminals. However in blindly harking after harmony you appear to have forsaken your power of discrimination and your ability to discern the good from the bad. You have proved to be too gullible and naïve, so much so that you have allowed a committed fifth column with a distinct profile to flourish under your very nose; a fifth column that is the final and vital link in these acts of terrorism, a fifth column that is at the crux of this matter.
This fifth column is not only anti-national in character but is bent on destroying the pluralistic nature of our society.
By turning a blind eye to the shenanigans of these antagonists we become willing accomplices in the murder of future victims.
While the common man maybe culpable by default, our politicians stand accused by deliberate design. Political correctness takes on another dimension in the political arena. Under the guise of minority privileges but more so for political gains and pecuniary advantage, certain sections have been accorded undue laxity; a laxity that has been fully exploited by extremist groups for nefarious purposes.
A typical example of this is the clean chit (though denied later) given to an outlawed organization by the Chief Minister of a prestigious state.
Acts like this embolden the traitors in our midst to maim and kill with impunity certain that the unscrupulous politicians will provide them with the much-needed cover for their misdeeds.
Another catalyst for this terrorism is the so called intelligentsia that has created an atmosphere that seeks to rationalize these brazen acts of violence by repeatedly and inappropriately raising the non-existent bogey of Hindu fanaticism.
By suggesting that terrorism is a by-product of our misdeeds, our morale is undermined and our response blunted.
Last but not least is the role of the government. <b>Incapable of decisive action or pursuing a consistent anti-terrorist policy vis-Ã -vis Pakistan, successive governments have failed to sunder the unholy nexus between our hostile neighbour and local inimical forces. The present regime consisting of disparate elements tugging in different directions with a puppet Prime Minister at the helm is an apology for a government. The different voices that emanate from this Tower of Babel do not project an image of coherence let alone a sense of security.</b>
The politically-motivated decision to revoke POTA has definitely increased our vulnerability. In a short span of 2 years there have been at least 5 high profile terrorist attacks, a direct consequence of the repeal of POTA.
<b>In summary, a gullible public, an intellectually dishonest intelligentsia and an indecisive government populated by unscrupulous politicians have inadvertently conspired to create a soft state incapable of demarcating its borders, protecting the lives of its upright citizens or ensuring their way of life. This has to change. </b>
There is one serious obstacle to proposed union of NDA and UPA. UPA has created a false and dishonest image of NDA, anti-muslim party. As such if UPA partners with NDA then muslim vote bank will turn against UPA. Appeasing muslims is all UPA does.
India had been very unlucky when it comes to leadership. People like Gandhi and Nehru have screwed India big time.
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Indeed UPA went all out to create a false and dishonest image of the NDA.
But many Congies themselves are not very comfortable with all this back seat driving of the Commies and would avoid it if they can.
It may also be remembered that Sharad Pawar of the NC ( a constituent of the UPA at present) was not much averse to an alliance with the NDA at one time. There were speculations about his joining hands with the BJP---and who said no party is 'untouchable' ?
Pawar and his friends were the first to hoist the banner of revolt against Antanio Maino.
I think he and other Congies may not be much averse to ditch her if a chance comes their way !
