This reminds me of the encounter between the Portuguese and the Japanese several hundred years ago. When the missionary said, these Shinto rituals are sinful, the Japanese guy replied back with 'what is sin' ?.
These primitive abhrahamic poems are meaningless to eastern religions.
<!--QuoteBegin-chandramoulee+Jul 22 2006, 09:48 PM-->QUOTE(chandramoulee @ Jul 22 2006, 09:48 PM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->We Hindus are also "sinners" because we continuously commit the <i>original sin </i>committed by Adam and Eve !!
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Some extracts from "Addresses Delivered before the Sixth International Convention of the Student Volunteer Movement for Foreign Missions, Rochester, New York, <b>December 29, 1909, to January 2, 1910</b>" as it relates to India.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->......The awakening of India is the great fact that we face in Southern Asia, and that awakening is two-fold: first, within the Church; and second, without the Church, in the leavening of the life of the people, in the reaction of Christianity upon the non-Christian religions and upon the whole nation.
First, let us note the awakening within the Church. <b>Now I admit that India presents, with one possible exception, the greatest difficulty of any country in Asia. With its iron-bound social caste system, its subtle pantheistic philosophies, India presents a difficulty greater than Christianity ever faced in Pagan Europe, in Greece or in the Roman Empire. India will probably be the last country in Asia to be won. Yet even India is becoming slowly but surely Christian.</b> Take the census in the last ten years. While the population increased two and a half per cent, and the Parsees four per cent, the Jews six per cent, the Mohammedans eight per cent, and while the Hindus lost a fraction of one per cent, Protestant native Christians increased sixty-three per cent or more than twenty times the rate of increase of the population. <b>In the last fifty years, while our Roman Catholic brethren gained one hundred and eleven per cent, Protestant Christians gained eight hundred and fifty-seven; and even India is becoming Christian. </b>
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<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin--><b>The strength of Hinduism</b> is its <b>pantheistic theology, and not its social system of caste</b>. The strength of Buddhism is the seductive power of its philosophy, not its externals of worship. Bishop Mylne, after twenty-one years in India, made a notable contribution to the science of missions in his recent book, "Missions to Hindus", and those who study it will see how the whole problem of method hinges on a thoroughgoing knowledge of Hinduism. <b>He shows that monism in philosophy, pantheism in religion, and caste in society are absolutely inseparable</b> -- "one homogeneous whole of ruthless and uncompromising solidarity." <b>Hinduism is no longer stagnant but active and uses the modern arguments and methods</b> in its attack on Christianity through the Arya Somaj and the Brahmo Somaj. An educated Hindu writes in the Fortnightly Review on "Why I am not a Christian"; and his arguments are worthy of careful study.
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<!--QuoteBegin-mitradena+Jul 21 2006, 09:56 PM-->QUOTE(mitradena @ Jul 21 2006, 09:56 PM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->
That is all fine. Having noble ideals is all very good.
But the historical truth is that there was no man called Jesus Christ.
His story is a myth.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So according to you which religious figure is not a myth?
People believe in a lot of Gods and Godly men. They are supposed to have lived many milleniums ago. What we know is from religious books.
As you wrote, I can also say that Rama and Krishna are also just myths. How can you prove that they were true historical figures?
As far as I can understand all these religious figures are a mixture of myth and truth. But there is a pictuire about these which is set in the minds of people who believe in them. And religion itself is a myth. Nobody knows what will happen to us after our death. No dead person has ever come back and told any body. So these are just beliefs only. Why should we abuse each other, accuse each other and fight over them.
The aim of every religion should be to make a man a better man. If that is not met, I think those religions are failures. In the contemporaray world the Islamic terrosits do make a lot of trouble. Based on that one can easily say that, that belief.; I am not talking about Islam in general, but those who believe in bloody jihads, is a failure.
<!--QuoteBegin-agnivayu+Jul 22 2006, 06:45 PM-->QUOTE(agnivayu @ Jul 22 2006, 06:45 PM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->
Pat Robertson is but one of many, the head of the Indian Catholic union (John Dayal or whatever) is also a fundamentalist jackass, so is the Pope, and he represents a lot of Xtian's. It's funny how all these non-whites bow to the white pope as their gateway to their god. Just a few months ago, this Hitler youth pope was saying he was concerned about human rights in India. Since when does a hateful ex-nazi bigot who doesn't even consider Hinduism as a relgion start lecturing Hindus about human rights.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Let me interfere here, of course with your permission. Cool down. Any body can cal any names on others. Becoming outrageuos wil not do any good. Pope is the religuious head of a division of Christianity, Catholics. Out of the 2.5 billion Christians only 1 billion consider him as their leader. That means more Christians arte outside his dontrol. And more over Pope is only the spiritrual head of the Catholics. He does not have any other sort of jurisdiction.
Bowing to white Pope does not have any importance at all. Whetehr he is black, brown or white does not make any difference at all. Catholics bow in front of that position, not the individual. And your allegation as ex Nazi does not have any reliability at all. It is true he was in Germany when Hitler was in power.
Do you bow in front of Sankaracharya as a gateway to God?
I do not think Pope does not consider Hinduism as a religion. He knows about Hinduism very well.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->THere is no point in talking about how good you think Hindus are, because many of us are very well aware about the kind of talk that goes on in Xtian circles. Xtian radicals are responsible for most of the hate propaganda that's directed against Hindus (starting with Dalitsthan.org). The worst castist societies in the world are in the Xtian world (Brazil, Latin America in general). Mexico with 7% White population always has a White President. We know where the real caste system is.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Talking tit for tat is not a good thing. There are people who hate each other. There are people who hate each other based on religion as well. There are many websites which shows hatred against Hindus. Like that there are many websites which shows hatred against Christians. The question about Mexico is totally unwarranted. If ask you why India did not have a PM from BC and untouchables who make majority of Indians? We can not see that as a discrimination.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Xtians have a long way to go to earn our respect, they can start by first acknowlegding us as a religion! Maybe the pope can eat some humble pie, and try talking to HIndus decently like he does with Jews and Muslims. He also needs to acknowledge Xtian crimes commited against Hindus in Goa etc.
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This is really funny. There are billions of Christians all over the world. I am sure you are meeting and dealing with many Christians daily. How many do not accept Hinduism as a religion?
I think you have got a wrong impression about Goan inquistion. It could be due to your idea from some web site only. Try to know the other side or any independent views. Inquistion and especilly Goan inquisition was a tribunal to punish erring BELIEVERS, not any NON BELIEVERS. Inquisition was directed aginst members of the Catholic church. I acknowledge that it was avvery very cruel method of indictment and punishing. No Hindu was ever punished in the inquisition.
<!--QuoteBegin-k.ram+Jul 22 2006, 08:48 PM-->QUOTE(k.ram @ Jul 22 2006, 08:48 PM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->And I thought, non hindus reject and are averse to any notion that is attached to "birth", then why do they fall for "birth based" 400% inheritance of "Sin" - hook, line and sinker? Sounds more like a "bonded labor" contract clause to me....
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AS far as I know Hinduism do have a concept of birth, rebirth and many many rebirth till you are born as a Brahmin. When you die as a Brahmin you will reach heaven. Am I corect? If not, correct me.
If I am right , could you please explain why people are reborn?
AS far as I know Hinduism do have a concept of birth, rebirth and many many rebirth till you are born as a Brahmin. When you die as a Brahmin you will reach heaven. Am IÂ corect? If not, correct me.
If I am right , could you please explain why people are reborn?
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Yes, brahmana by guna and karma, not by mere virtue of being born into a "brahmana" family with readymade label attached. If that happens, he/she is no brahmana.
<!--QuoteBegin-annamma+Jul 22 2006, 04:30 PM-->QUOTE(annamma @ Jul 22 2006, 04:30 PM)<!--QuoteEBegin--> I think all of us have sinned, though; Hindus , Muslims and Christians [right][snapback]54314[/snapback][/right]
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In christianity, everyone is born a sinner, until he or she is saved through christ.
Hinduism, Buddhism, Jainism, Sikhism, etc., do not hold the concept of man being born a sinner. On the contrary, these faiths hold the view that all souls that take human birth are essentially good, and that our actions exerted through free will during the life-time will either bring us closer to the divine or take us away from the path of divinity.
It is definitely more appealing to a human being to believe in the inherent goodness of man, than to condemn him as a born sinner. Isn't it more lovelier to be looked upon as a divine being than as a sinner? This may explain the inherent appeal and attractiveness of Hinduism to many people, including westerners, who are tired of being constantly told that they are 'born sinners,' 'once a sinner, always a sinner,' and that they would need a fixed, non-negotiable entity called 'christ' to deliver them from their sins. How sad and depressing is a 'religion' that constantly derides a human being as a sinner.
Paul welcome to the forum. For goan inquisition & and for a graphic account of the Inquisition's cruelties, my data points come from sources like , <b>Paul William Roberts, Empire of the Soul: Some Journeys in India </b>, and also <b>Boxer, Portuguese Seaborne Empire</b>.
<!--QuoteBegin-paulose+Jul 23 2006, 12:49 AM-->QUOTE(paulose @ Jul 23 2006, 12:49 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->
AS far as I know Hinduism do have a concept of birth, rebirth and many many rebirth till you are born as a Brahmin. When you die as a Brahmin you will reach heaven. Am IÂ corect? If not, correct me.
If I am right , could you please explain why people are reborn?
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The idea of rebirths rests on man desiring and needing to perfect himself to the point of being able to become one with the divine. The stage which best prepares one for this union with the divine is the brahminhood. To be a brahmin is to possess those qualities and virtues that enable one to experience the divinity - to be disciplined, to possess self-control, piety, humility, honesty, strength of character, purity in thought and action, etc., It has nothing to do with the caste into which a person is born, but to do with the qualities that he or she possesses and acquires through the repeated birth cycles. Unfortunately, the guna-based varna system became the birth-based caste system as a result of historical, social and political factors, and not because it is sanctioned in the hindu scriptures. It is unfortunate though the christians have continuously and deliberately misrepresented the caste system as spiritually sanctioned by the hindu scriptures, and exploited it to the maximum for religious conversion reasons.
Paul, thanks for prompting me to google. <!--emo&--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Here is what I found, and very much in line with the books I earlier mentioned.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin--><b>Historian deSouza on the Goa Inquisition </b>
Dr. T. R. de Souza
"At least from <b>1540 onwards, and in the island of Goa before that year, all the Hindu idols had been annihilated or had disappeared, all the temples had been destroyed and their sites and building material was in most cases utilized to erect new Christian Churches and chapels. Various viceregal and Church council decrees banished the Hindu priests from the Portuguese territories; the public practices of Hindu rites including marriage rites, were banned; the state took upon itself the task of bringing up Hindu orphan children; the Hindus were denied certain employments, while the Christians were preferred; it was ensured that the Hindus would not harass those who became Christians, and on the contrary, the Hindus were obliged to assemble periodically in Churches to listen to preaching or to the refutation of their religion</b>."
"A particularly grave abuse was practiced in Goa in the form of \'mass baptism\' and what went before it. The practice was begun by the Jesuits and was alter initiated by the Franciscans also. The Jesuits staged an annual mass baptism on the Feast of the Conversion of St. Paul (January 25), and in order to secure as many neophytes as possible, a <b>few days before the ceremony the Jesuits would go through the streets of the Hindu quarter in pairs, accompanied by their Negro slaves, whom they would urge to seize the Hindus. When the blacks caught up a fugitive, they would smear his lips with a piece of beef, making him an \'untouchable\' among his people. Conversion to Christianity was then his only option.\" </b>
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<b> The Goan inquisition is regarded by all contemporary portrayals as the most violent inquisition ever executed by the Portuguese Catholic Church. </b>It lasted from 1560 to 1812. The inquisition was set as a tribunal, headed by a judge, sent to Goa from Portugal and was assisted by two judicial henchmen. The judge was answerable to no one except to Lisbon and handed down punishments as he saw fit. The Inquisition Laws filled 230 pages and the palace where the Inquisition was conducted was known as the Big House and the Inquisition proceedings were always conducted behind closed shutters and closed doors. <b>The screams of agony of the culprits (men, women, and children) could be heard in the streets, in the stillness of the night, as they were brutally interrogated, flogged, and slowly dismembered in front of their relatives. Eyelids were sliced off and extremities were amputated carefully, a person could remain conscious even though the only thing that remained was his torso and a ! head. </b>
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Diago de Boarda, a priest and his advisor Vicar General, Miguel Vazz had made a 41 point plan for torturing Hindus. Under this plan Viceroy Antano de Noronha issued in 1566, an order applicable to the entire area under Portuguese rule :
Â
"I hereby order that in any area owned by my master, the king, nobody should construct a Hindu temple and such temples already constructed should not be repaired without my permission. If this order is transgressed, such temples shall be, destroyed and the goods in them shall be used to meet expenses of holy deeds, as punishment of such transgression.\"
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In 1567 the campaign of destroying temples in Bardez met with success. <b>At the end of it 300 Hindu temples were destroyed. Enacting laws, prohibition was laid from December 4, 1567 on rituals of Hindu marriages, sacred thread wearing and cremation. All the persons above 15 years of age were compelled to listen to Christian preaching, failing which they were punished</b>.
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A religious fatva was issued on the basis of the findings of Goa Inquiry Commission. It stated,\"...Hereby we declare the decision that the conventions mentioned in the preamble of the fatva as stated below are permanently declared as useless, and therefore prohibited\".
Â
<b>Prohibitions Regarding Marriages </b>
* The instruments for Hindu songs shall not be played.
* While giving dowry the relatives of the bride and groom must not be invited.
* At the time of marriage, betel leaf packages (pan) must not be distributed either publicly or in private to the persons present.
* Flowers, or fried puris, betel nuts and leaves must not be sent to the heads of the houses of the bride or groom.
* Gotraj ceremony of family God must not be performed.
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* On the day prior to a wedding, rice must not be husked, spices must not be pounded, grains must not be ground and other recipes for marriage feast must not be cooked.
* Pandals and festoons must not be used.
* Pithi should not be applied.
* The bride must not be accorded ceremonial welcome. The bride and groom must not be made to sit under pandal to convey blessings and best wishes to them.
Â
Prohibitions Regarding Fasts, Post-death Rituals
* The poor must not be fed or ceremonial meals must not be served for the peace of the souls of the dead.
* There should be no fasting on ekadashi day.
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* Fasting can be done according to the Christian principles.
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* No rituals should be performed on the twelfth day after death, on moonless and full moon dates.
*No fasting should be done during lunar eclipse.
<b>Conventions </b>
* Hindu men should not wear dhoti either in public or in their houses. Women should not wear cholis .
* They should not plant Tulsi in their houses, compounds, gardens or any other place.
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Following the law of 1567, orphans were kidnapped for converting them to Christianity.
On September 22, 1570 an order was issued that :
* The Hindus embracing Christianity will be exempted from land taxes for a period of 15 years.
* Nobody shall bear Hindu names or surnames.
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In 1583 Hindu temples at Esolna and Kankolim were destroyed through army action.
"The fathers of the Church forbade the Hindus under terrible penalties the use of their own sacred books, and prevented them from all exercise of their religion. They destroyed their temples, and so harassed and interfered with the people that they abandoned the city in large numbers, refusing to remain any longer in a place where they had no liberty, and were liable to imprisonment, torture and death if they worshipped after their own fashion the gods of their fathers.\" wrote Sasetti, who was in India from 1578 to 1588.
An order was issued in June 1684 eliminating Konkani language and making it compulsory to speak Portuguese language. The law provided for dealing toughly with anyone using the local language. Following that law all the symbols of non-Christian sects were destroyed and the books written in local languages were burnt.
The Archbishop living on the banks of the Ethora had said during one of his lecture series, \"The post of Inquiry Commission in Goa is regarded as holy.\" The women who opposed the assistants of the commission were put behind the bars and were used by them to satisfy their animal instincts. Then they were burnt alive as opponents of the established tenets of the Catholic church.
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The victims of such inhuman laws of the Inquiry Commission included a French traveller named Delone. He was an eye witness to the atrocities, cruelty and reign of terror unleashed by priests. He published a book in 1687 describing the lot of helpless victims. While he was in jail he had heard the cries of tortured people beaten with instruments having sharp teeth. All these details are noted in Delone\'s book.
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So harsh and notorious was the inquisition in Goa, that word of its brutality and horrors reached Lisbon but nothing was done to stop this notoriety and escalating barbarity and it continued for two hundred more years. No body knows the exact number of Goans subjected to these diabolical tortures, but perhaps it runs into hundreds of thousands, may be even more. The abominations of inquisitions continued until a brief respite was given in 1774 but four years later, the inquisition was introduced again and it continued un-interruptedly until 1812. At that point in time, in the year of 1812, the British put pressure on the Portuguese to put an end to the terror of Inquisition and the presence of British troops in Goa enforced the British desire. Also the Portuguese power at this time was
declining and they could not fight the British. The palace of the Grand Inquisitor, the Big House, was demolished and no trace of it remains today, which might remind someone of inquisitions a! nd the horrors inside this Big House that their great saint Francis Xavier had commenced.
Â
<b>Dr. Trasta Breganka Kunha, a Catholic citizen of Goa</b> writes, "Inspite of all the mutilations and concealment of history, it remains an undoubted fact that religious conversion of Goans is due to methods of force adopted by the Portuguese to establish their rule. As a result of this violence the character of our people was destroyed. <b>The propagation of Christian sect in Goa came about not by religious preaching but through the methods of violence and pressure. If any evidence is needed for this fact, we can obtain it through law books, orders and reports of the local rulers of that time and also from the most dependable documents of the Christian sect</b>.
<!--QuoteBegin-paulose+Jul 23 2006, 12:43 AM-->QUOTE(paulose @ Jul 23 2006, 12:43 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->I do not think Pope does not consider Hinduism as a religion. He knows about Hinduism very well.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, you are correct. Pope knows about Hinduism, but as a religion to be targetted for conversion. Last time I heard, Hinduism is NOT considered as a religion by Itali, France and many other European countries.
Although most people think of Buddha as being one person who lived around 500 B.C.E., like Jesus the character commonly portrayed as Buddha can also be demonstrated to be a compilation of godmen, legends and sayings of various holy men both preceding and succeeding the period attributed to the Buddha.37
The Buddha character has the following in common with the Christ figure:38
  * Buddha was born of the virgin Maya, who was considered the "Queen of Heaven."38a
  * He was of royal descent.
  * He crushed a serpent's head.
<b>Â Â * Sakyamuni Buddha had 12 disciples.38b</b>
  * He performed miracles and wonders, healed the sick, fed 500 men from a "small basket of cakes," and walked on water.38c
  * He abolished idolatry, was a "sower of the word," and preached "the establishment of a kingdom of righteousness."38d
  * He taught chastity, temperance, tolerance, compassion, love, and the equality of all.
  * He was transfigured on a mount.
  * Sakya Buddha was crucified in a sin-atonement, suffered for three days in hell, and was resurrected.38e
  * He ascended to Nirvana or "heaven."
  * Buddha was considered the "Good Shepherd"39, the "Carpenter"40, the "Infinite and Everlasting."40a
  * He was called the "Savior of the World" and the "Light of the World."
Regarding the Buddhist influence on the gospel story, in 2003 Buddhist and Sanskrit scholar Dr. Christian Lindtner wrote the following:
"The Sanskrit manuscripts prove without a shadow of doubt:
<b>
"Everything that Jesus says or does was already said or done by the Buddha.</b>
<b>
"Jesus, therefore, is a mere literary fiction.</b>
  * "The Last Supper was the Last Supper of the Buddha.
  * <b>"Baptism in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit was baptism in the name of the Buddha, the Dharma and the Samgha.</b>
<b>Â Â * "All the miracles performed by Jesus had already been performed by the Buddha.</b>
  * <b>"The twelve disciples of Jesus were, in fact, the twelve disciples of the Buddha.</b>
  * "It was king Gautama--not Jesus--who was crucified.
  * "It was Tathâgata--not Jesus--who was resurrected....
  * "There is nothing in the Gospels, no person, no event, that cannot be traced back to cognate persons, events or circumstances in the Buddhist gospels.
  * "...Jesus is a Buddha disguised as a new Jewish legislator, teacher, Messiah and king of Israel.
"The Gospels, forming the foundation of Christianity, are, therefore, typical Buddhist literature, fiction, designed for missionaries whose language was Greek.40b"
Concerning the "crucifixion" of Buddha, as related in a Buddhist text dating to the <b>first century BCE (Samghabhedavastu/ Mahâparinirvâna sûtra), </b>Ken Humphreys states:
"In this story of 'Gautama, a holy man' our hero is wrongfully condemned to die on the cross for murdering the courtesan Bhadra. Gautama is impaled on a cross, and his mentor Krishna Dvapayana visits him and enters into a long dialogue, at the end of which Gautama dies at the place of skulls after engendering two offspring - the progenitors of the Ikshavaku Dynasty."
Humphreys further relates that <b>"the dead Buddha is burned and it is the smoke of his corpse which rises - the true 'resurrection.'"</b>
According to Dr. Burkhard Scherer, a "classical Philologist, Indologist and Lecturer in Religious Studies (Buddhist and Hindu Studies)" at Canterbury Christ Church University, the fact that there is "massive" Buddhist influence in the gospels has long been well known among the elite scholars. Says Dr. Scherer:
"...<b>it is very important to draw attention on the fact that there is (massive) Buddhist influence in the Gospels....</b>
"Since more than hundred years Buddhist influence in the Gospels has been known and acknowledged by scholars from both sides. Just recently, Duncan McDerret published his excellent The Bible and the Buddhist (Sardini, Bornato [Italy] 2001). With McDerret, I am convinced that there are many Buddhist narratives in the Gospels.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
07-23-2006, 08:40 AM (This post was last modified: 07-23-2006, 08:44 AM by dhu.)
Theravada was transformed into Therapeut:
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->http://www.truthbeknown.com/origins6.htm
<b>Was the New Testament Composed by Therapeuts?</b>
In 1829 Rev. Taylor adeptly made the case that <b>the entire Gospel story was already in existence long before the beginning of the Common Era and was probably composed by the monks at Alexandria called</b> <b>"Therapeuts" </b>in Greek and "Essenes" in Egyptian, both names meaning "healers."113 This theory has stemmed in part from <b>the statement of early church father Eusebius, who, in a rare moment of seeming honesty, "admitted...that the canonical Christian gospels and epistles were the ancient writings of the Essenes or Therapeutae reproduced in the name of Jesus."</b>114 <b>Taylor also opines that "the travelling Egyptian Therapeuts brought the whole story from India to their monasteries in Egypt, where, some time after the commencement of the Roman monarchy, it was transmuted in Christianity."</b>115 In addition, Wheless evinces that one can find much of the fable of "Jesus Christ" in the Book of Enoch116, which predated the supposed advent of the Jewish master by hundreds of years.117 According to Massey, it was the "pagan" Gnostics--who included members of the Essene/Therapeut and Nazarene118 brotherhoods, among others--who actually carried to Rome the esoteric (gnostic) texts containing the Mythos, upon which the numerous gospels, including the canonical four, were based. Wheless says, "Obviously, the Gospels and other New Testament booklets, written in Greek and quoting 300 times the Greek Septuagint, and several Greek Pagan authors, as Aratus, and Cleanthes, were written, not by illiterate Jewish peasants, but by Greek-speaking ex-Pagan Fathers and priests far from the Holy Land of the Jews."119 Mead averred, "We thus conclude that the autographs of our four Gospels were most probably written in Egypt, in the reign of Hadrian."<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->I think you have got a wrong impression about Goan inquistion. It could be due to your idea from some web site only. Try to know the other side or any independent views. Inquistion and especilly Goan inquisition was a tribunal to punish erring BELIEVERS, not any NON BELIEVERS. Inquisition was directed aginst members of the Catholic church. I acknowledge that it was avvery very cruel method of indictment and punishing. No Hindu was ever punished in the inquisition.
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Paul,
That particular line is along the lines of saying holocoust never happened in Nazi Germany - kinda like no jew was hurt.
I gather you have never stepped in Goa or northern parts of Karnataka or interacted with anyone from those parts. There is no 'wrong impression' about Goan inquistion, and the idea is not from 'some website'. My ancestors are from those parts and what happened there in pretty common knowledge. Most authorative books on this issue are by Christians themselves who were forcibly converted.
Some books worth reading on this:
- Cabral e Sa, M. Wind of fire: The music and musicians of Goa
- Davison Winius, G. The Black Legend of Portuguese India
- Ferdinand, P. The Rape of Goa.
- Gaytonde, P. D Portuguese Pioneers in India
- Gomes Pereira, R Goa. Hindu Temples and Deities
- Priolkar, A. K. The Goa Inquisition
- T R deSouza, Medieval Goa
- D deMendonca, Conversions and Citizenry
- VN Kudva, History of the Dakshinatya Saraswats, Samyukta Gowda Saraswata Sabha, Madras, India
- MA Couto, Goa: A Daughter's Story, (2001)
- C Keni, Saraswats in Goa and Beyond, (1998)
- Richard Zimler's Guardian of the Dawn
Visit any temple in Goa and you'll hear the tales of how Hindus were proscecuted and massacred in Goa on orders of Xavier whom vatican rewarded with sainthood. The 'Rigour of Mercy' unleashed on Goan inhabitants by papal sancation would have made the deeds of Timur Lan look like a boy scout.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Â Â * He abolished idolatry, was a "sower of the word," and preached "the establishment of a kingdom of righteousness."38d
  * Buddha was considered the "Good Shepherd"39, the "Carpenter"40, the "Infinite and Everlasting."40a
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
While there is no doubt that Isaism has borrowed a lot from Buddhism, even in the above quote the Abrahamistic bias in interpretting things is seen. Buddha did not abolish "idolatory". In fact bauddhas like their AstIka cousins are worshipers of images. They worship images of the buddha, his bodily relics and so on.
Nor was the buddha caled a good Shepherd or carpenter anywhere, as Jesus is in the Isaistic texts. Given all the fudging that has gone on with early Christian history and its dates, there is more myth than history in all event concerning the life of Jesus. There is nothing unusual in this, and all other cultures tend to mix myth and history. But the real problem is the Abrahamistic insistence that this is the real history and important over all else. According to professional Israeli archaeologists themselves Joshiah onwards the kings of Israel, including Dawid, Solomon and the Maccabees were local rulers with no pan-Middle Eastern influence or even aspirations. So it is really tragic if ex-Hindus and other ex-heathens are now swearing by events and characters that has no connection to them geographically or otherwise.
So you fundamentalist Xtian's are finally here too, thanks for joining in.
The Pope and Catholicism is the single largest Christian group and his opinion is very important. The point is that a large number of the Xtian senior leadership is very intolerant in their rhetoric as it concerns Hindus. BTW the Pope was a member of the Hitler Youth, his explanation is that he was forced into it (sure he was ..., now if Germany had won WW-2 then it would be different). Infact even the Pope during WW-2 is shown in a photo giving a heil Hitler. Hitler himself was a devout Christian and used Christian rhetoric regularly in his speeches.
The fact that every Pope has been White is significant, because it's you Xtian extremists that keep attacking us Hindus for the caste system, so it's only appropriate that caste systems in the Vatican and Latin America be exposed.
As far as untouchable being a caste is complete nonsense, it's a bunch of dissimilar Jati groups that have suffered local ethnic discrmination by other Jati's, many of them also categorised as lower caste or whatever. So, this idea that there are these evil Brahmins controlling the rest of the Hindus is primarily British colonial Christian propaganda that's continued today by Evangelical fundamentalists and Indian xtian extremists. BTW, many Indian Xtian's have a caste system that's even worse than the Hindus.
Xtian history (in the Roman Empire and ancient Greece) has shown that they quickly seek to destroy the intellectual power base of rival religions, so this anti-Brahmin hate campaign started by the British had that aim too no doubt.
You seem like you want to work with us, can you convince France and Italy to recognize Hinduism as a religion as they have with other major world religions?
The ball is in the court of extremist evangelical xtian's like yourself. When you are ready to live side by side in a civilized way with other religions, let us know. Sugar coating the church's brutality in Latin America or Goa isn't going to win you any supporters.
<!--QuoteBegin-paulose+Jul 23 2006, 12:43 AM-->QUOTE(paulose @ Jul 23 2006, 12:43 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->Let me interfere here, of course with your permission. Cool down. Any body can cal any names on others. Becoming outrageuos wil not do any good. Pope is the religuious head of a division of Christianity, Catholics. Out of the 2.5 billion Christians only 1 billion consider him as their leader. That means more Christians arte outside his dontrol. And more over Pope is only the spiritrual head of the Catholics. He does not have any other sort of jurisdiction.
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<!--QuoteBegin--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Xtians have a long way to go to earn our respect, they can start by first acknowlegding us as a religion! Maybe the pope can eat some humble pie, and try talking to HIndus decently like he does with Jews and Muslims. He also needs to acknowledge Xtian crimes commited against Hindus in Goa etc.
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I think you have got a wrong impression about Goan inquistion. It could be due to your idea from some web site only. Try to know the other side or any independent views. Inquistion and especilly Goan inquisition was a tribunal to punish erring BELIEVERS, not any NON BELIEVERS. Inquisition was directed aginst members of the Catholic church. I acknowledge that it was avvery very cruel method of indictment and punishing. No Hindu was ever punished in the inquisition.
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<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->As you wrote, I can also say that Rama and Krishna are also just myths. How can you prove that they were true historical figures?<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Because of the existance of a clear historical record.
Also the Jivanmuktas or the great saints <b>who have actually seen God have given live testimony to this.</b>
There are thousands of Yogis in India who perform any number of miracles you can imagine.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->And religion itself is a myth. Nobody knows what will happen to us after our death. No dead person has ever come back and told any body. So these are just beliefs only. Why should we abuse each other, accuse each other and fight over them.
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There is clear proof that people are reborn after they die.
Re-incarnation is very true.
In most cases there memory of previous lives remains submerged in the sub-conscious mind.
In rare cases the person retains memory of the past life.
It is through these cases we can prove that re-incarnation is true.
Read this book: http://www.sivananda.com/afterdeath.htm
Thousands of Psychics & spiritologists have done research on various topics.
Many reputed people including American actress Jane Seymour have out of body experiences.
Many American Police departments take the help of Psychics to help solve difficult crimes.
Are you saying all these people are liars and cheats?
Since Islam & Xtianity stubbornly refuse to believe in these facts, we can clearly see that they are bogus religions.
You think this Universe is some kind of joke?
You think you can blabber some nonsense and pass that for the truth?
We need to use our brain to find out what is the divine force behind this universe?
Who/what/where is this force?
We need to find out what is the true nature of God.
<b>
Where do you think you are going to go after you die?
You think you are going to disappear into thin air?
</b>
<!--QuoteBegin-agnivayu+Jul 22 2006, 10:01 PM-->QUOTE(agnivayu @ Jul 22 2006, 10:01 PM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->This reminds me of the encounter between the Portuguese and the Japanese several hundred years ago. When the missionary said, these Shinto rituals are sinful, the Japanese guy replied back with 'what is sin' ?.Â
These primitive abhrahamic poems are meaningless to eastern religions.
<!--QuoteBegin-chandramoulee+Jul 22 2006, 09:48 PM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(chandramoulee @ Jul 22 2006, 09:48 PM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->We Hindus are also "sinners" because we continuously commit the <i>original sin </i>committed by Adam and Eve !!
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the primitive abrahamic poem of adam and eve and the garden of eden and the 6 day creation concept and the flood myth (noah's ark crap) are all identically stolen from sumerian legends like enuma elish and gilgamesh. pre exilic judaism borrows heavily from iraq and egypt with some masalla from abraham and moses, where as post exilic judaism and the latter part of the talmud (called the Gemara if i recall right, the first part being the Mishnah) borrow heavily from the pharisees, the people of iran.
btw the arabic cum hindi word called "admi" meaning male, is derived from adam or whatever is the hebrew/semitic word for adam.
<!--QuoteBegin-sankara+Jul 23 2006, 01:18 AM-->QUOTE(sankara @ Jul 23 2006, 01:18 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->The idea of rebirths rests on man desiring and needing to perfect himself to the point of being able to become one with the divine. The stage which best prepares one for this union with the divine is the brahminhood. To be a brahmin is to possess those qualities and virtues that enable one to experience the divinity - to be disciplined, to possess self-control, piety, humility, honesty, strength of character, purity in thought and action, etc., It has nothing to do with the caste into which a person is born, but to do with the qualities that he or she possesses and acquires through the repeated birth cycles. Unfortunately, the guna-based varna system became the birth-based caste system as a result of historical, social and political factors, and not because it is sanctioned in the hindu scriptures. It is unfortunate though the christians have continuously and deliberately misrepresented the caste system as spiritually sanctioned by the hindu scriptures, and exploited it to the maximum for religious conversion reasons.
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I really find it astonishing in these forums that many writers can not stick to the point. In the span of 5 sentences usually at least 10 issues will be touched. That is confusing also. I was talking about just one point, rebirth in Hinduism. Conversion is not an issue here. Caste also is irrelevant here. Guna based varna or birth based catse has nothing here. Whether caste is sanctioned in Hindu scriptures also has nothing to do with rebirth.
If a person is born as a chandala, it is believed that he had commited some crimes or mistakes in his previous birth. That means he is responsible for his mistakes or SIN in a previous birth. The original sin belief in Christianity is an extrapolation of this concept. The first man commited a mistake or SIN. And part of that is passed from him to his generations. It is something like genes being transmitted into offsprings.
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