There are relevant threads on this forum each discussing topics on Islam, Hindusim, Women in India, Arya Samaj, Bhramo Samaj etc..
Let's keep this thread focused on History of Bengal - for a moderator it's easier to lock and thrash the thread than spend hours cleaning up nonsense.
The reason I'm addressing this post only to you is that other participants on this thread have been on this forum over a year and have addressed most of the points you are raising in those relevant threads. Please spend some time lurking around, read the posts in those specific threads and then respond there.
Benami, coming back to the history of Bengal, could you throw light on Gangesa Mishra and Tattvachintamani please? What was Gangesa's influence on bengalis.
There are relevant threads on this forum each discussing topics on Islam, Hindusim, Women in India, Arya Samaj, Bhramo Samaj etc..
Let's keep this thread focused on History of Bengal - for a moderator it's easier to lock and thrash the thread than spend hours cleaning up nonsense.
The reason I'm addressing this post only to you is that other participants on this thread have been on this forum over a year and have addressed most of the points you are raising in those relevant threads. Please spend some time lurking around, read the posts in those specific threads and then respond there.
[right][snapback]42408[/snapback][/right]
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
yes ok.
we drifted off the topic yes, but then it wasnt me who started talking off-topic. i didnt "raise any point", though i tried to answer a few off-topic points which were raised.
and besides as you rightly pointed out, that the others have been "lurking around" for a lot longer than i, so even though a mistake or two from my side could be condoned since i am new, the others should by now have known better than to spew "nonsense" here.
<!--QuoteBegin-Sunder+Dec 2 2005, 10:17 PM-->QUOTE(Sunder @ Dec 2 2005, 10:17 PM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->Thanks for the timely reminder Viren.
Benami, coming back to the history of Bengal, could you throw light on Gangesa Mishra and Tattvachintamani please? What was Gangesa's influence on bengalis.
<!--QuoteBegin-ben_ami+Dec 3 2005, 08:15 AM-->QUOTE(ben_ami @ Dec 3 2005, 08:15 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-Sunder+Dec 2 2005, 10:17 PM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Sunder @ Dec 2 2005, 10:17 PM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->Thanks for the timely reminder Viren.
Benami, coming back to the history of Bengal, could you throw light on Gangesa Mishra and Tattvachintamani please? What was Gangesa's influence on bengalis.
this is the first time i am hearing these two names, unless by ganesh you meant the elephant god ganesh.
so maybe you could tell us.
[right][snapback]42446[/snapback][/right]
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It is not two names.. it is only one name. Gangesa (not Ganesha). His work is called Tattvachintamani. Gangesa Mishra is supposed to be one of the major proponents of Navya-Nyaya school. I thought you would know more.
What are the chances of change of guard in Bengal? Present rulers have performed pretty strongly in last elections?
BB seems to be working hard to improve the business environment.
Earlier it was a thumb rule that Kol is Cong and Rest of Bengal is Comms.
Any change in the perception?
It seems that there is no credible opp leader either as well with MB losing credibilty with Bengalis in general.
It also seems that people are reticent or don't care.
From Ultra-nationalism to Communism, Bengal has covered a long way in 100 years, next what ?
[right][snapback]42561[/snapback][/right]
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
nice question.
chances of change of guard ? minimal.
as you rightly pointed out calcutta is cong while rest of the state is cpm.
the thing is that the communist party (anywhere in the world) is not just another political party. it would be foolish to think so (just as islam is not another religion.) Both are cults and demand blind commitment from their followers and believe in total subjugation of their opponents. to that end, they stop at nothing.
cpim has ruined the education system of bengal, be it at the primary edu level or higher edu level. cos educated people are difficult to sway. the cpim has systematically ruined and uprooted all bastions of congress in the state. they have given key jobs only to party members, not the least in education and "trade union" sectors.
bengal has been ruined in every way. bengal rose cos of its education system and fell cos their education system was er.. "felled" by the commies.
the change in perception you talk of is very much there and almost every one i spoke to, be it urban and rural, seems to have realised that the commies have dug our grave.
as you said there is no credible opponent leader. MB is a greenhorn politician whilst her opponents are sly to say the least. MB's wavering - eg. forming TMC etc, has only made her seem less trustworthy. i do not think so that she'd have made a good c.m. though she is more of a true "people's person" than most others in indian politics. what she could have done is topple the govt - that would have been a huge step forward. she nearly pulled it off last time and now, neither she nor anyone ever will.
the reason is as you point out, BB and his progressive policies. had the current cpim term been anything like what it used to be under scoundrel #1 (JB), then i am sure cpim would be in power for the last time this time.
the thing is that cpim has done 2 important things in all this 30 years of misrule which makes them more suited than anyone else to pull bengal back.
1) they have REALLY taken care of the farm and rural sectors of the state. so rag tag people are indeed pleased with them. too bad that i was done at the expense of the middle class.
2) they have rendered the state elections meaningless.
the two together mean that if bb tries to do a C. Naidu, which he indeed is, and not just in the SW sector, there will be no farmers' suicides and revolts brewing under. it also means no opposition leader can tap into that dissent and topple a pretty good (by commie standards at least) chief minister.
even in karnataka they are scared that if they do to much of urban development than the BHARAT types (as different from the india types ) may vote them out of power. so they now have to do a balancing act.
i believe that the cpim has, despite all its million faults, done that bit of groundwork at least. social justice at rural leval is better in WB than most other states and farmers dont commit suicide - and thats after we have a huge immigrant population of landless hindu farmers. so the cpim can, theoritically march full steam ahead.
remember bjp, despite improving living standards of the middle and upper class had to bow out. even a prosperous state like mahaashtra now has suicide cases in Vidharba.
in a nutshell, the advantage that the present cpim govt has over the other state govts, is the one china has over india. that of total control. which can be as good (if used properly) as it can be bad.
question is whether cpim will do it. whether they will be able to win back the confidence of investors (ambani was talking of a SEZ somewhere in WB. just hope the cpim allows it to go ahead. then we could see a cascading effect) . if BB stays then they just as well might. if the hawks (gurudas dasgupta, nilotpal something-or-the-other etc) take over then its back to square one. the other key player is the WB finance minister. a prodigal talent, he was invited by paul samuelson to Sloan college MIT, when he published a paper at the ripe old age of 21.
for some reason half the talented guys in calcutta have a commie leaning, and of late the rest of india has latched on too (romilla, jnu).
BB has done well at least in contrast to what the previous jerk did. still, the improvement that BB did is far from spectacular. cpim are holding back the haldia petrochem thing. if Purnendu had more sense he'd invest in the service sector and not the manufacturing sector of west bengal. meanwhile for the first time cpim has a voice in the centre (which thankfully for us, is not led by bengalis but prakash and brinda karat, sitaram khichry and pranab bhar-mey-jaae bhardan.) they want to introduce unions in SW companies and there's no prizes for guessing in which city they want to start their unionising.
all said and done, i'll still give BB another term. of all the state CM's he was the one who managed to latch on to mammohon singh's "look east policy" the most. we also attracted more fdi than most. The nick-of-time "safai" that BB gave on behalf of cpim, is the reason why i say that the chances of a change of guard are minimal.
i just hope that BB continues to improve and takes full advantage of the 2 points i had elaborated upon.
<!--QuoteBegin-Shaurya+Dec 6 2005, 07:53 AM-->QUOTE(Shaurya @ Dec 6 2005, 07:53 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->Are there any studies explaining and comparing the infamous land reforms implemented in w. bengal and contrast them with other Indian states?
[right][snapback]42567[/snapback][/right]
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
what land reforms are you talking about.
other indian states, barring one, had never had to go through the "land" ordeal we had to and somehow even without knowing what the duece you are alluding to, i have a feeling that the answer could lie in that fact.
<b>Yes the land reforms in West Bengal had yielded result in the initial years. There was the implementation of the land ceiling act and the excess land was given to the landless labour. This improved the financial position of the rural poor to a great extent. In a few years time this got washed off due to the large scale unemployment in West Bengal due to industrial unrest. The State Government instigated the workers against the industrialists and it brought many industrial units to close down. The net result was that due to the communist misrule the industry suffered and their was flight of capital from the State, It resulted in the economic decline of the State. It is ironic that today the same communists are chasing the industrialists for new investment in the State.</b>
<!--QuoteBegin-Ravish+Dec 6 2005, 12:17 PM-->QUOTE(Ravish @ Dec 6 2005, 12:17 PM)<!--QuoteEBegin--><b>Yes the land reforms in West Bengal had yielded result in the initial years. There was the implementation of the land ceiling act and the excess land was given to the landless labour. This improved the financial position of the rural poor to a great extent. In a few years time this got washed off due to the large scale unemployment in West Bengal due to industrial unrest. The State Government instigated the workers against the industrialists and it brought many industrial units to close down. The net result was that due to the communist misrule the industry suffered and their was flight of capital from the State, It resulted in the economic decline of the State. It is ironic that today the same communists are chasing the industrialists for new investment in the State.</b>
[right][snapback]42606[/snapback][/right]
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thanks Ravish. What I am looking for is a study a paper or book on success/failures of land reforms in Bengal, preferably not from a communist. I am not necessarily looking for an overall critique of communist economic policy in Bengal. The reason i am looking for such a study is that everytime a communist such as Karat speak up, they refer to the land reforms undertaken by the govt in bengal and the benefits of the same. I want to study more about it. If someone can point me to it, I will be grateful.
What are the chances of change of guard in Bengal? Present rulers have performed pretty strongly in last elections?
BB seems to be working hard to improve the business environment.
Earlier it was a thumb rule that Kol is Cong and Rest of Bengal is Comms.
Any change in the perception?
;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;chances of a change of guard are minimal.
i just hope that BB continues to improve and takes full advantage of the 2 points i had elaborated upon.
[right][snapback]42593[/snapback][/right]
Well to some extent you are right. I guess the primary education in government controlled institutions have suffered. Unionization of colleges i.e. Presidency College and others have certainly devalued them.
Some hope, onlY state in India to have 3 IITS (KHGPR, JU, BE). Crime situation may be better than many other non-comm states particulalry wrt to women (?).
Biggest book fare in Asia still graces Kolkata, speaks volume about perennial book love of localites.
I guess with the spread of open and uncontrolled medium like internet will certainly help in creating awareness among younger generations. Who knows.. you might sees online addas a favourite past time of localites.
However, some quarters express concerns about Assamization of WB in case there is change of guard in future!!
I also think like China, only rhetoric remains of mxism. Even sons of CMs and Ex CMS are capable of putting many capitalists to shame.
I guess one of the important transformation of Bengal has been from devout Hindu nationalism in to an egalitarian leftism which has stunted the philosophical creativity in some ways.
Name a good religious leader from Bengal after 70's (last one being SrilaPrabhupada of ISKCON fame). It is funny to see some of the Com leaders organizing Durga Pujas indirectly and heartily.
for the life of me i will not understand why bengalis took to communism.
bengalis are neck deep in films, books, music, religion (the fervour fo durga puja), into emphasis on education, into all the things marxism is against.
that all these survive despite 30 years of communism, only vindicates my previous assertion.
yes social justics, including towards women is a lot better than most states, castesm is unheard of - leftist egalitarism does have some positives, on the social front at least
i hope that like in china, wb will only remain comie on paper. yet retain the "total control" of communism - cos thats a great asset if put to good use. if india china trade looks up in future and air connectivity with the far east and south east asia picks up, wb would be (at least could be) amongst the main benificiaries.
and yes they will soon have 3 IITs. thats only fitting - cos the first engineering college in india (shibpur BE college) was in wb. as was the first any kind of western college (presidency), the first iit (kgp) as well as the first mba college in the country. pity bengalis are the worst enterpreneurs in the world - there should have been a few privately owned colleges too, at least nri funded colleges.
<!--QuoteBegin-ben_ami+Dec 7 2005, 12:13 PM-->QUOTE(ben_ami @ Dec 7 2005, 12:13 PM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->for the life of me i will not understand why bengalis took to communism.
bengalis are neck deep in films, books, music, religion (the fervour fo durga puja), into emphasis on education, into all the things marxism is against.
'''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''';;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;; pity bengalis are the worst enterpreneurs in the world - there should have been a few privately owned colleges too, at least nri funded colleges.
over to BB.
[right][snapback]42643[/snapback][/right]
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hey,after doing music, books, religion, dance, films and intellectual discussions when there will be time to talk business, ........on a lighter side (not to be taken seriously).
On a more serious note, unwillingness to take risk is one factor. Another factor after spending enough on education (middle class perspective) there will always a need to recover the cost so unwillingness to take the risk.
Leftist thinking discourages capitalist thinking and associate them with something how they call it an 'elite' class. Commerce got associated with being crass. Business man became as not too acceptable form of manifestation after doing a couple of Masters.
But then some NRIs have done well.....Bose, PC.
Remember Enterpreneurship is also about risk taking and flexibility to adjust.....but then sometimes with a glorious history to look at, flexibility, alliances do not come easily.
I also think early socio-religious thinkers did contribute to some extent in dematerialization of the society. However newer gen is much more flexible and willing to take risks.
someone said in the gandhi's legacy thread, about how 800 years of getting hammered under muslims, left people in the hindi heartland so lacking in self respect and guts, that the vast majority of them did not have in them to join the armed revolt proposed by bipin pal, sarvarkar and netaji..... but meanwhile gandhi's "safe" ahimsha concept had many takers.
i feel 150 years of bearing the brunt of british colonialism and economic exploitation, and then having had the best 2/3rd part of their province amputed from them, has left bengalis economically gutless. there are ready takers in wb for education based means of livelihood, but few would attempt to get into retail even, let alone high risk, investment-intensive business.
just a connection i couldnt fail to see.
besides having an overdose of elitocracy in its past, and then 30 years of leftist crap have made them anti-capitalistic and sort of utopian.
all said and done, i dont believe wb and calcutta arnt good for industry (except manufacturing sector which provides blue collar jobs to rag tag people who can easily be brainwashed with commie-union crap) - cos the birlas, goenkas, and dalmiyas and a host of others do very brisk business and have produced some of the biggest companies.
i also dont believe that bengalis arnt inherently bad at business. cos i have seen/heard of, many in delhi and abroad. and they have a street long list of people in top positions in various companies in india as well as abroad, not the least, one mr rajot gupta (global chairman, mckenzie)
<!--QuoteBegin-ben_ami+Dec 7 2005, 05:26 PM-->QUOTE(ben_ami @ Dec 7 2005, 05:26 PM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->someone said in the gandhi's legacy thread, about how 800 years of getting hammered under muslims, left people in the hindi heartland so lacking in self respect and guts, that the vast majority of them did not have in them to join the armed revolt proposed by bipin pal, sarvarkar and netaji..... but meanwhile gandhi's "safe" ahimsha concept had many takers.
:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::Â Â )
[right][snapback]42646[/snapback][/right]
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think you are quite right. This syndrome is a carry over from Maratha efforts against mughals. Broader Hindu Society failed to unite with MArathas other wise there could have been a sovereign Hindu Rashtra many 100 years ago in line with Japan.
Battle of Plassey is a good example when local population of village of Bengal refused or didn't realized or just coward to fight against bunch of British soldiers. Fighting spirit of Hindus/Indians just vanished after spread of Buddhism in India; they failed to kick out Muslim invaders and later British.
