<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Agreed. But does the rule apply for Kashmiri Pandits, Assamese as well? Going by your logic I see no reason why the Army should be bled year after year in Kashmir and NE.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes the same applies for Assam also but not Kashmiri Pandits because they were too small a minority to begin with so they couldn't have done anything but what is preventing Assamese and Bengalis from doing something before its too late, I don't expect free service for any state, I think Hindus in Andhra deserve what they get at the hands of Muslims for not expelling them in 1947.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->hinduism is entirely of north indian manufacture. everything from vedas, to puranas, to ayurveda, to yoga and other shastras to salbha sutras to ramayan and mahabharat to astronomical and mathematical treatises - everything thats hindu was written by north indians (ie. from ved vyas, puru tribe who wrote the rig veda, aryabhatta, bhramagupta, charaka - everyone) and in sanskrit. also we never ever called ourselves hindus, but "arya". hindu is just the iranian word for the arya (north indian) people living on this side of the sindhu river. <!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Once again you expose your ignorance, what a load of crap, do you even know where the Bhakti movement (the same movement that contributed immensely in saving India from Islam) started, it started down South in Tamil Nadu and spread North, do you know where Adi Shankaracharya is from, the same man who singlehandedly revived Sanatana Dharma, he was from Kerala.
Your Brahmo Samajist beliefs are not Hinduism and Hinduism is not just confined to Mahabharat, Ramayan and the Vedas, otherwise we wouldn't be having Kabirpanthis and Ramanandis and others.
I some times feel that even educated Indians are more interested in finding differences than finding commonalities between different group of Indians. No wonder we were colonized for 1000 years.
One of the best known commentary on Indian nation was written by Swami Vivekananda. He had debunked this North - South and Aryan- Non Aryan divide thoroughly.
Speaking of Hinduism being a north Indian phenomenon, surprisingly Shankaracharya, considered to be a Shiva avatar, came from Kerala and revived Hinduism when Buddhism had dealt a big blow to it and India could have suffered the same fate as that of Afghanistan which was almost a Buddhist country before it was run over by mohamadden bandits. Just to add, Ramanujacharya, Madhavacharya, Ramana Maharishi all came from South.
there is some speculation that aryabhatta was from kerala while he may have done his work in kusumapura. at least one of the bhaskaras was from the south
the kerala school of mathematics was world renowned in the middle ages.
sayana (vidyaranya) the patron saint of Vijayanagar was fromthe south
Nagarjuna (and some sayDharmakirti) the buddhist savants were from the south
the andhras fought in the mahabharata (on the wrongside !)
the capital of the satavahana empire was eventually moved to Guntur
the jains were big in the south - Gomateswarastatuein MYsore
05-03-2006, 08:45 PM (This post was last modified: 05-03-2006, 08:56 PM by Bharatvarsh.)
The doctrines of Dvaita and Vishishtadvaita also came from down South, and the Bhakti movement was speaheaded by the Alvars and Nayanars, only then did it spread to the North. Tiruvalluvar was also from Tamil Nadu.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->to astronomical and mathematical treatises - everything thats hindu was written by north indians<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Really, great fantasies you have, go read about the Kerala school of mathematics. Bhaskara II was from Karnataka.
not really.
aryabhatta was most probably a namboodhri - the brahmins who carved out a new language out of tamilian. and its the ancestors of present day brahmins of tamil nadu who took hinduism to the south.
the core books of hinduism ARE the vedas, upanishads and the bhagavat gita, not commentries or cults or bhakti movements.
because sharon lowen is a good exponent of indian classical dancing and becuase zubin matha mastered western classical music, it dont mean indian classical music is of western manufacture or western music of indian. get my point?? what hankaracharya, vikekananda et al taught was not new, most of their sayings are derivatives of the original vedic wisdom. some of the most sacred and rare hindu manuscripts were perserved by buddhist monks in tibet - they thus did us a favour yes, but it would be innane to suggest that tibetans had any contribution in the foundations of sanatan dharma and its philosophy. google or read rajaram and you will know which directicon knowledge travelled.
as for bahmo samaj, tho i am still a brahmin and not a brahmo, i am for all practical purposes a brahmo. i never never perform any rituals and nor ever will. on principle. belief is in the heart and mind, rules and do's and donts are just ceremony and rites. what interests me is hindu philosophy / "darshan" and wisdom. i lose respect for myself when i even think of daily puja or such like. thats for common people, for the masses. those who cant get into the theology/metaphysics side of the hindu spectrum.
Why you are in habit of switching any discussion to some other topic and ending up in Israel or Jews?
Stick to topic, Misc topic thread is for that purpose.
Anything off topic will get deleted in future.
So is the case for RSS. Can RSS/BJP raise the slogan to send back only the Muslim Bnagaldeshis while retaining the Hindu Bangladeshis?
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Yes, the RSS/BJP have done this consistently since 1980
The AGP of Assam is too secular to do this
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Muslim infiltration in west bengal began in 1981-1991 and has actually gone down in 1991-2001
Muslim growth rate in west bengal, 1981-1991 = 37%
1991-2001 = 30%
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I have consistenly called for evacuating the 10 million residual hindus from bangladesh and settling them in Assam and west bengal
Mathematically this will make it impossible for BD to demographically annex parts of India, since the hindu refugees will deislamise the border areas well below critical mass
<!--QuoteBegin-G.Subramaniam+May 4 2006, 07:03 AM-->QUOTE(G.Subramaniam @ May 4 2006, 07:03 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->So is the case for RSS. Can RSS/BJP raise the slogan to send back only the Muslim Bnagaldeshis while retaining the Hindu Bangladeshis?
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Yes, the RSS/BJP have done this consistently since 1980
The AGP of Assam is too secular to do this
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Muslim infiltration in west bengal began in 1981-1991 and has actually gone down in 1991-2001
Muslim growth rate in west bengal, 1981-1991 = 37%
1991-2001 = 30%
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I have consistenly called for evacuating the 10 million residual hindus from bangladesh and settling them in Assam and west bengal
Mathematically this will make it impossible for BD to demographically annex parts of India, since the hindu refugees will deislamise the border areas well below critical mass
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GS,
1. RSS/BJP - Can you point me to a news report wherein RSS/BJP have explicitly called for 'expulsion of BD Muslims' while retaining the BD Hindus? Either in context of state politics or at national level fora?
2. Muslim growth rate - My first hand information from relatives (Nadia, North 24 paragans distt.) tells me that demograpic changes has much to do with post 90s infiltration.
But you are suggesting is that increase in Muslim percentage may be due to their usual birth rates i.e. without infiltration.
Boss, we should be very carefull about establishing your line, because it leads to the reasoning that infiltration may have minimal or secondary effect on Muslim growth rates.
3. Resettling BD Hindus - Good intention, but a pipe dream. If we could not do a population exchange during partition, chances are non-existant in our times of secularism.
There are other issues as well. Where would you resettle them? WB is too densely polulated. Assam? Hmm, Assamese will rather have Muslims by their sides in preference over Bengalis.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->1. RSS/BJP - Can you point me to a news report wherein RSS/BJP have explicitly called for 'expulsion of BD Muslims' while retaining the BD Hindus? Either in context of state politics or at national level fora? <!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Excerpts from RSS book "A vision in action"
it was Balasaheb Deoras who was the first to put the problem in a proper perspective. He declared that the Hindus who were streaming into Assam were 'refugees' being hounded out by the Bangladeshi Islamic regime; and Bharat was under a moral obligation to give refuge and protection to them. On the other hand, the Bangladeshi Muslims whose influx into Assam is being engineered by the Bangladeshi regime in pursuance of the decadesold design of converting it into Islamic Assam, are infiltrators'. Balasaheb also warned the Assamese Hindus of the dreadful fate awaiting any part of the country that would be reduced to a Hindu-minority area
The RSS/BJP has consistently called for differential action on muslim vs hindu immigrants
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<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->2. Muslim growth rate - My first hand information from relatives (Nadia, North 24 paragans distt.) tells me that demograpic changes has much to do with post 90s infiltration.
But you are suggesting is that increase in Muslim percentage may be due to their usual birth rates i.e. without infiltration.
Boss, we should be very carefull about establishing your line, because it leads to the reasoning that infiltration may have minimal or secondary effect on Muslim growth rates.
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
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I rely on hard data
Per census, muslim growth in 1981-1991 in WB was 37% and this declined to 30% in 1991-2001
What has happened is that while muslim demographic invasion began in 1981, muslims only recently crossed critical mass and this has hence risen to the level to alert local hindus
Let me point out the case of kerala, where muslims breeded from 17% in 1961 to 25% today and heading for 33% by 2030
This is entirely due to differential breeding and the islamisation is faster than in infiltration hit WB or Assam
In Assam and WB, for the 1991-2001 census, the muslim growth rate was 30%
the hindu growth rate was 15%
Of the 30% muslim growth rate, 25% is due to breeding and 5% is due to infiltration
The differential growth rate is 15% of which 2/3 or 10% is due to muslim breeding and 1/3 or 5% is due to muslim infiltration
Yes, per hard census data, in both Assam and West Bengal, muslim growth is primarily internal breeding and immigration is a secondary factor
In the rest of India, muslims have a 20% fertility advantage, in Kerala, Assam and West Bengal muslims have a 50% fertility advantage
Read my demography threads since 2003
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<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->3. Resettling BD Hindus - Good intention, but a pipe dream. If we could not do a population exchange during partition, chances are non-existant in our times of secularism.
There are other issues as well. Where would you resettle them? WB is too densely polulated. Assam? Hmm, Assamese will rather have Muslims by their sides in preference over Bengalis.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
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BD hindus are gradually being ethnic cleansed anyways to India
and why not accelerate the process voluntarily and deislamise residual India
If BD hindus can live in more crowded BD, they can live in less crowded Nadia and Murshidabad
Thanks to secularism we cant expel muslims anymore
we lost that opportunity in 1947
I recommend you watch the movie 'Hey Ram' starring Kamalhassan
while it has a Gandhist ending, about 90% of the movie is good and shows Gandhi fooling bengali hindus
However nothing prevents us from spreading the word to BD hindus to leave ASAP
Regarding Assamese, we need to educate them on what awaits them
And non-Assamese must do more to assimilate
If BD muslims in assam can declare assamese their mother tongue, what prevents bengali hindus in assam from doing same
Bengali hindus need to give up bhadrolok chauvinism regarding people from other states
<!--QuoteBegin-G.Subramaniam+May 4 2006, 05:55 PM-->QUOTE(G.Subramaniam @ May 4 2006, 05:55 PM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->I recommend you watch the movie 'Hey Ram' starring Kamalhassan
while it has a Gandhist ending, about 90% of the movie is good and shows Gandhi fooling bengali hindus
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
can we have more information about this "fooling". did he sell ahimsha to hindus, while ignoring the fact that muslims were being millitant??
<b>
i also read in the Netaji thread of this forum, that Netaji had quite different ideas about what should be done regarding the east bengal-west bengal boundary line, and that if he was allowed to have his way, the "partition of bengal" borders would not have been the final india-east pakistan border. could someone give more info about this.</b>
05-04-2006, 09:37 PM (This post was last modified: 05-04-2006, 09:49 PM by Bharatvarsh.)
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->can we have more information about this "fooling". did he sell ahimsha to hindus, while ignoring the fact that muslims were being millitant??<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
After direct action day was done, there was Hindu retaliation in Calcutta, Gandhi was after Bengalis for this, he came to Kolkata and stayed with Suhrawardy (organiser of Direct Action Day) and Suhrawardhy in turn was pleading with him to save Muslims from Hindu retalition, Gandhi as usual did one of his fasts and asked Hindus to stop the retaliation and most of them did, this was hailed as the "Calcutta miracle" but I really doubt it was because of Gandhi, because by the time Gandhi came Hindus had more than equalled Muslim killings and the rioters were probably going home after their duty was done.
This bloody nose also gave Muslims some much needed experience and planning, so from that time on they decided to hit Hindus in areas where they were a tiny minority such as Noakhali and Tippera. But the Bihari Hindus in Bengal went to their villages and spread the word about Muslim savagery in Calcutta and about 5000 Muslims got slaughtered in Bihar as retaliation, this was when Nehru wanted to air bomb Bihari Hindus, I don't know if he actually implemented it. Gandhi also went on a fast again to prevent Bihari Hindus from taking revenge but he didn't succeed much.
05-05-2006, 06:22 AM (This post was last modified: 05-05-2006, 06:29 AM by Bharatvarsh.)
I guess the following article falls under "History of Bengal", it came out during the 50th anniversary of partition. These are the people who saved Hindus of Bengal, not the losers who sat and wrote articles about Hindu and Muslim savages battling each other.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Duty does not permit repentance --The butchers of Calcutta
Andrew Whitehead
Gopal `Patha' Mukherjee, Gopal the Goat, looks an unlikely retired gang leader. He is positively beatific, with his thick, black-rimmed spectacles, long white beard, and tidy wisp of grey hair tied up on top of his head, sardar-style.
Yet, half a century ago, he was among the most feared of Calcutta's musclemen, with 800 boys at his command. He was an emperor and they were his army. Gopal Patha he got the name because his family ran a meat shop on College Street was, at the time of partition, a protector of his community. His idea of keeping the peace was killing the other side.
``He was very ferocious,'' recalls S. K. Bhattacharjee, a sub-inspector in the Lalbazar police headquarters at the time of the Great Calcutta Killing in August 1946. ``Gopal Patha looked like a gentleman. He was a criminal, but he was very helpful to the poor. During the riots, he came out to rescue Hindus.''
Then as now, gang leaders needed political patrons, and politicians were keen to have friends in low places. Gopal Patha, sitting in his office near Calcutta's Wellington Square, says he was close to the Congress Chief, B. C. Roy though he insists this was a personal friendship more than a political allegiance.
Whatever the inspiration, when Direct Action Day unleashed communal rioting in Calcutta, Gopal Patha assembled his force. ``It was a very critical time for the country,'' he asserts. "We thought if the whole area became Pakistan, there would be more torture and repression. So I called all my boys together and said it was time to retaliate. If you come to know that one murder has taken place, you commit 10 murders. That was the order to my boys.''
The words are uttered so softly, it takes a while for their import to sink in. Calcutta was in flames and Gopal Patha, in effect, took the opportunity to douse the city in kerosene. ``It was basically duty,'' he insists. ``I had to help those in distress.''
Today, his modest office is grandly titled the National Relief Centre for Destitutes. Apparently, a charity clinic occasionally operates from there. On the walls are black-and-white portraits of a pantheon of Bengali heroes, the garlands greying with dust and decay. And behind the door, sufficiently lifelike to unnerve the unwary, is a life-size model of Netaji, dressed in INA uniform, right down to the spit-and-polish military boots.
``People used all sorts of weapons,'' says Gopal Patha, relishing the opportunity to reminisce. ``They had small knives, big choppers, sticks, rods, guns, and pistols. I had two American pistols. We got some weapons during the 1942 movement. Then during the Second World War, the American army, the Negroes, were in Calcutta. If you gave them Rs 250 or a bottle of whiskey, they would give you a pistol and a hundred cartridges. That way we secured all these weapons, and we used them during the troubles.''
He made plenty of enemies. ``We came to know a Hindu called Gopal Patha,'' recalls former Muslim Leaguer G. G. Ajmiri. ``He used to catch hold of Muslims and slaughter them.'' Ajmiri was a Muslim strongman, a leader of the League's student wing in Calcutta along with Mujibur Rahman (``He was not that important then.'') and a member of the Muslim National Guard.
Ajmiri, who appears to have been loyal in turn to Britain, to Pakistan (he served in its army) and now to Bangladesh, lives in Dhaka, where he delights in telling tales of his prowess. ``They used to call me `brave'; `strongarm'. I never used a shotgun or sword. But I was a good boxer. And sometimes I took the bamboo sticks out of their hands and beat them with those.''
``One day,'' says Ajmiri, warming to his theme, ``somebody said: Gopal Patha has grabbed four Muslims and slaughtered them. Immediately, we rushed there. Gopal Patha looked at me and said: `Oh, this man has come again.' So I said, `Yes. Why are you killing people just because they are Muslims?' He said to me: `You go, we won't kill anybody now.'''
Patha ripostes that his boys were always selective. ``We fought and killed our attackers. But why should we kill an ordinary rickshaw-wallah or hawker?"For every first division gang leader like Gopal the Goat, there was a cluster of lesser figures, people like Jugal Chandra Ghosh, also now in his eighties. Still a big bear of a man, he was in 1946 a worker with the Congress Party's trade union wing. But that wasn't the source of his street power.
``I had a club, an akhara,'' he says. ``I was a wrestler, and I trained my boys, and they carried out my instructions. There was this Congress party leader. He took me round Calcutta in his jeep. I saw many dead bodies, Hindu dead bodies. I told him: `Yes, there will be retaliation.'''
``I went round the saw mills and factories. I set an amount sometimes Rs 1,000, sometimes Rs 5,000. They paid up. Then I declared: for one murder, you get Rs 10, for a half-murder, Rs 5. That's how we got started.''
A year after the Killing, Gandhi came to a still-smouldering city and appealed for a surrender of arms. The journalist Sailen Chatterjee witnessed the scene. ``People came with their weapons and placed them at the feet of Gandhiji. Shabbily-dressed people came with swords, daggers and country-made guns. Even Mountbatten said this was the miracle of Calcutta. Gandhi's miracle.''
Ghosh was among those who surrendered their arms. It was a remarkable conversion, and Ghosh remains a committed Gandhian. In the aftermath of Ayodhya, he worked hard to prevent communal unrest in his mixed area of Calcutta.
But there were limits to the miracle. Some strongmen, those who had fanned the flames so diligently over the previous year, took an intransigent line. ``Gandhi called me twice,'' Gopal Patha says. ``I didn't go. The third time, some local Congress leaders told me that I should at least deposit some of my arms.''
``I went there. I saw people coming and depositing weapons which were of no use to anyone out-of-order pistols, that sort of thing. Then Gandhi's secretary said to me: `Gopal, why don't you surrender your arms to Gandhiji?' I replied, `With these arms I saved the women of my area, I saved the people. I will not surrender them''.
With a steely glint in his eye, the sort which distinguishes the goonda from the loudmouth muscleman, Gopal Patha continued: ``Where was Gandhiji, I said, during the Great Calcutta Killing? Where was he then? <span style='font-size:14pt;line-height:100%'>Even if I've used a nail to kill someone, I won't surrender even that nail.''</span>His sober determination underlines one of the tragedies of Partition fifty years on, so many of those who killed still have no sense of regret.
thats cool. we should rename the mg road in calcutta after gopal patha (the "th" is pronounced the retroflex way, as in "thakur") mukherjee. we hindus need more people like him who know how to pay muslims in thier own currency, instead of p-secs and/or pacifists who neuter the mentality of hindus.
<!--QuoteBegin-G.Subramaniam+May 4 2006, 05:55 PM-->QUOTE(G.Subramaniam @ May 4 2006, 05:55 PM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->http://www.hindubooks.org/dynamic/modules....id=1451&page=13
He declared that the Hindus who were streaming into Assam were 'refugees' being hounded out by the Bangladeshi Islamic regime; and Bharat was under a moral obligation to give refuge and protection to them. On the other hand, the Bangladeshi Muslims whose influx into Assam is being engineered by the Bangladeshi regime in pursuance of the decadesold design of converting it into Islamic Assam, are infiltrators'.
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thanks
<!--QuoteBegin-G.Subramaniam+May 4 2006, 05:55 PM-->QUOTE(G.Subramaniam @ May 4 2006, 05:55 PM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->Yes, per hard census data, in both Assam and West Bengal, muslim growth is primarily internal breeding and immigration is a secondary factor
In the rest of India, muslims have a 20% fertility advantage, in Kerala, Assam and West Bengal muslims have a 50% fertility advantage
Read my demography threads since 2003
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Agreed, my impression could be from selective examples as I gathered from my relatives.
And yes, now it explains the mystery why the infiltration issue has such a limited response from the local population. If the Muslim increase is indeed organic, then the local population justifybly treats the infiltrations as mere economic nuisance.
<!--QuoteBegin-G.Subramaniam+May 4 2006, 05:55 PM-->QUOTE(G.Subramaniam @ May 4 2006, 05:55 PM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->Regarding Assamese, we need to educate them on what awaits them
And non-Assamese must do more to assimilate
If BD muslims in assam can declare assamese their mother tongue, what prevents bengali hindus in assam from doing same
Bengali hindus need to give up bhadrolok chauvinism regarding people from other states
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Disagreeing with you on the last point. Between a Assamese and a Bengali who is more assimilaitive is needs facts rather than rhetoric. How many Assamese do you find outside Assam?
Secondly, why should someone give up their language? Sorry, doesn't happen anywhere and won't work.
Bhadrolok chauvinism? We've chauvinists of all stripes Sikhs, Assamese, Tamils, etc. and Bengalis are only one that have not shown seccetionist tendencies yet. Lets stop it here anyway.
BTW, would you like to take up the census findings in BRF?
.
And yes, now it explains the mystery why the infiltration issue has such a limited response from the local population. If the Muslim increase is indeed organic, then the local population justifybly treats the infiltrations as mere economic nuisance.
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The Sangh Parivar has made itself look like an idiot by over-inflating infiltration
BD illegals have all documents thanks to commie vote bankers and hence they are counted in the census
Per census, BD illegals are about 10 million since 1981
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Disagreeing with you on the last point. Between a Assamese and a Bengali who is more assimilaitive is needs facts rather than rhetoric. How many Assamese do you find outside Assam?
Secondly, why should someone give up their language? Sorry, doesn't happen anywhere and won't work.
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I see more bengali refugees from communism outside bengal
The real world works on darwin not dharma
If it is politically advantageous to change your language , do so
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Bhadrolok chauvinism? We've chauvinists of all stripes Sikhs, Assamese, Tamils, etc. and Bengalis are only one that have not shown seccetionist tendencies yet. Lets stop it here anyway.
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I remember reading an article wherein bengali despisal of
Ureys ( orissa ), Ghatis etc and every other region
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BTW, would you like to take up the census findings in BRF?
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I got thrown out of BRF for attempting to start a thread on this
I then migrated to this forum since it is less politically correct
Even in this forum, When I started to post excerpts about medieval muslim atrocities from authors such as Andre Wink, etc, my thread got nuked
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Even in this forum, When I started to post excerpts about medieval muslim atrocities from authors such as Andre Wink, etc, my thread got nuked<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
In last 2 years we had not deleted any thread created by you, you can start new or let me know thread title or check complete list even 2nd and 3 rd page.
Provide links in case very violent descriptive contents because this forum is also visited by Kids and students.
<!--QuoteBegin-G.Subramaniam+May 5 2006, 06:34 PM-->QUOTE(G.Subramaniam @ May 5 2006, 06:34 PM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->I remember reading an article wherein bengali despisal of
Ureys ( orissa ), Ghatis etc and every other region
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<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
ghatis or phonetically "ghotis" are bengalis from west bengal (as different from the people of east bengal).
as for despisal, no one is an exception. punjabis have a derogatory name for just about anyone - bhaiyas, bongs, madrasis et al. in bangalore a tamilian is a conga/konga, an andhrite is a gult, a kerelite is a mallu and the rest are ofcourse "northies". so why single us out?
